By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
All the examples in your last post supposedly supporting your theory were Audis.
When did I say all companies make cars equally efficient? If 0-60 times are same for two cars does it mean they are "equally efficient"? You need a course in how to read and think. Vehicles with same 0-60 could have huge differences in terms of fuel efficiency, smoothness, high speed stability, noise, vibration, etc
"Efficiency" in the context of hp vs. 0-60 means "mechanical efficiency," or Eta, not fuel efficiency. Please refrain from questioning other poster's reading and thinking skills. For what it's worth, I did actually go through two degree programs (physics and EECS) at MIT over a decade ago . . . while quite a few people there were brilliant thinkers, if one hangs with the wrong crowd, it's not hard to go through four (or more) years of boozing (not implying you did). Right now one of my tenants is a chef at an MIT fraternity house; when chatting with him from time to time, I'm often astounded by the hare-brained ideas that kids spending $35k/yr of their parents' money are coming up with.
You cannot discredit a model by just writing a few statements and using 3-5-7 and X-Y-Z.
3-5-7 referred to BMW 3 series, 5 series and 7 series. The 0-60 numbers from these cars are way ahead Audi's for comparable advertised power-to-weight ratio. The linear formula that you were claiming simply does not hold true when one is comparing cars from different makers with different drive trains, which may well have different mechanical efficiencies as well as different margins of confidence for advertised horsepower numbers. Some mfrs use average output, some use 1-delta, some use 2-delta standard deviations for conservative reporting. Furthermore, over time drive trains become more efficient even for the same mfr. For example, the new 6-sp automatic from Lexus is lighter weight in the gear box and more efficient than the previous 5-sp; whether the 2nd or the 3rd gear achieves 60mph makes a huge difference because the extra shift can take over half a second in itself. Some mfrs can be more ahead of others in terms of drive train mechanical efficiency. None of that is covered in your linear model; the co-efficient obviously has to be updated every few years, mfr by mfr. If you are really so much in love with your linear model, why don't you just assign a different co-efficient for the new Lexus from, say, those for the Audi's; and BMW gets its own co-efficient, too. At that point, why bother with the model at all, when new emperical data is crying out loud for co-efficient change all the time.
I'll overlook what you said about Aston-Martin based on our long standing friendship...lol.
M
Now you want a 0-60 time that is closer to what the average person could duplicate then see what C&D "Street Start" 5-60 mph time is. That is more real world than most magazines (including theirs) 0-60 times.
M
As you know, my general preference is for the European cars at the high end. However, the Lexus LS seats are some of the most comfortable in the business, and I've always thought that the Mercedes seats were just a touch too firm, but not enough to ever concern me or bother me much. In your opinion, are the new S-Class seats FIRMER than the previous model's seats, or about the same?
TagMan
M
Also funny is how this underscores the increase in initial quality at GM, by recreating the production of the best that Japan, and Germany have to offer.
This was also nicely underscored by Lexus in their ad campaign for the RX a couple of years ago, showing "engineers" from what would be competitors testing, driving, and prodding every new feature on the RX.
I think GM sees how far behind they are to Toyota, and when they tear apart a Prius, they see they can't catch up, and they can't copy their patented systems, like they can with the actual manufacture of the vehicle itself, but not the "TPS System".
I don't think Toyota is breaking apart any Malibus.
DrFill
You keep trumpeting sales, Bangle, sales Bangle, sales, Bangle. Porsche Boxster sales are up 150% in one year. I don’t hear anyone giving the credit to Harm Lagaay.
Thanks. I guess we have to do that sometimes. My brother thinks the outgoing Accord is a knockout. I had to question whether we came from the same parents.
;-)
So you guarantee your formula to be accurate within +- 20%. Wow.
As a designer I usually find critique by designers to be boring (haha).
Well as a non-designer myself, I still value your opinion!
I would be very surprised if they didn't. I believe the major manufacturers do this routinely for all cars. Toyota has cars competing with Malibu so it in their interest to see where GM is cutting costs and, dare I say it, corners.
My $.02
I have posted in the R class thread but not the others. My background is that I work for a M-B dealer and own a R350.
I have driven many makes and have found that it is true that the MB seats are firm at first glance, but after a 500 mile trip they provide the support needed for a fresh arrival. When I drive I maintain the same seating position and don't feel the need to fidget. I think a 5-10 min. test drive just will not showcase this benefit (unless we are referring to the massage feature in the S550)
Without back reading ( I apologize being the Johnny come lately)
I hope everyone has had the opportunity to drive the S550
I'm sure your brother knew already to check out the fine Porsche threads we have here on Edmunds.
In addition, check out the comfort seats in the 5 or 7 series.
They strike a nice balance between sport and cushy- firm, but not too firm with good lateral support and thigh extenders.
firm VS less firm
is NOT necessarily the same as:
supportive VS less supportive
and is also NOT necessarily the same as:
comfortable VS uncomfortable.
A car seat can therefore be supportive but not necessarily firm, and a car seat can be firm, supportive, and end up being comfortable OR uncomfortable, depending on the individual . . . and any of the other combinations of firmness and supportiveness . . . so . . . the bottom line is that what is comfortable is somewhat a PERSONAL PREFERENCE! True, good design will offer greater comfort to more people, but in the end it's that personal taste.
TagMan
Hmm, I don’t recall looking for Porsche praise in that post. If you think so then you missed my point. BTW, there are plenty of people who kill the Boxster on styling, ditto the 911. I’ve even heard people say the 911 looks like a VW beetle. I could care less. Actually, there is a family resemblance. After all, they have the same daddy. Then there are always those who call the Boxster a chick car. And there are purists who think the 356 is the only real Porsche. I kind of like the 356 styling but it reminds me of a horseshoe crab. For the record, I’m not that crazy about certain aspects the latest Boxster styling, not that I dislike it.
That sounds familiar from recollections of reviews but I really don’t know, didn’t dig into details. And they didn’t have a brochure. I just went to check out the styling, follow up on what I saw in photos.
I agree with everything you said about seat firmness, support and comfort. I also agree with the point benzster alluded to, that you have to go some distance to really judge the seats. My 530 is a classic example. The seats feel great when you first get in but both my wife and I have noticed discomfort on long trips. This is also true with home recliners and office chairs. Some are horrible and others are pure heaven. They should have the “fresh arrival” quality after extended use that benzster so aptly described. Maybe he’ll let me take an E55 on a long trip? That one’s on my short list since my wife can’t row an M5. I’m afraid to get her in one because she loves mid-size cars and torque. This means there could be no turning back. But it may be a longshot because she also likes CR. You’d think she was a Lexican.
;-)
I agree with your point.
I liked the Sterns and Foster but it killed my wife's back, she bought a Temperpedic (sp)and it is about to kill me!
Anything is possible
My point is that firm on initial inspection my not "feel" the best, but in the long run ..... that is why it is my $.02 worth.
Like they say....there is an --- for every seat. Mine just happens to like the MB.
I have a Hypnos. My wife tells me it’s used by Oprah and Queen Lizzie. But I told her I want the brand used by Tommy Lee and Pam Anderson. Seriously, you might want to check it out. I also liked the Schiffman we had before that.
;-)
I would drop BMW in a heartbeat if my wife gave me one for Valentine's Day.
This by the way will never happen.
Thank you for verifying my memory on this. I remembered something about the "dynamic seats" in the S-Class or Maybach because it caught my attention when I was reading about them. So it's the S-Class that has them!
As I understand them, they almost instantly adjust automatically in response to hard cornering to help give the driver the added lateral support that is needed under those conditions.
It's ingenious. I've never heard of them being used before, and I think that this is evidence of new technology and innovation put to good use at Mercedes Benz.
Dare I say, if Lexus had introduced these "dynamic seats" we'd have had dozens of posts about them, just like we did with the "park-assist".
6 points for MB.
TagMan
Most folks who have posted on various BMW chat sites swear they are the "best" seats.
I have 'em (for an extra $1200) and like 'em but have sat in a Volvo driver's seat which was more comfortable.
I believe the comfort seat would have the same effect on my back as any other seat after a long trip and it wouldn't be pretty! :sick:
Heck, I remember going in one of those "back" stores and I sat in those ergonomically and anatomically correct chairs . . . well . . . let's just say I left the store with money intact. So . . . I'm no judge of what is "supposed" to be comfortable, but I've always thought that the BMW and Mercedes seats are terrific, and I guess I should admit that the Lexus seats are VERY comfortable, but I didn't say that.
TagMan
M
Article
A little excerpt:
Is 'Gorgeous' worth it?
Jaguar hopes that its current brand advertising campaign, which avoids price pitches, will re-establish its luxury cachet.
The "Gorgeous" campaign, launched in America in October, is intended to lure customers looking for something beyond a traditional German or Japanese car. The advertisements promise elegance, glamour and Gatsbyesque dinner parties with alluring supermodels. Nowhere is an X-Type to be seen.
I've seen these ad, not sure if they're working, but they are interesting.
M
M
Yeah I saw those ads, but showing Italian engineers studying the RX didn't make much sense to me because nothing from Italy that I know of competes with the RX, or any Lexus really. Especially in this country.
I think there are two very distinct factions at GM. The engineers who could do better and the bean counters that won't let them. The problem is worse now because when GM was making the money the beaners wouldn't let the engineers spend any of it on better details so now since they aren't making any the choice is literally gone. The guys in that article know GM is way behind and could likely engineer a better product, but now they'll never get the leeway to do it. Then again a crisis does bring out the best in some companies and if these new full size SUVs are hits maybe they'll spend some of the profits on high-volume cars and not Corvette Z06s and STS/XLR-Vs.
M
Article
M
Don't worry, your secret is safe with me!
The most comfortable driver's seat ever for my body anyway was found in a rented 2004 Volvo V70 wagon.
No other seat comes close in any cars I have possessed or tested in the 2 years since.
Yup, the LS seat and BMW comfort seat are nice, but...
The picture of the S-Class in that ad is the definition of "oddly proportioned". The lighting amplifies every questionable line in the car. I've seen 100 pictures of the S-Class, and all of them were better.
That's as bad a picture/print ad as you will ever see.
Say what you want about Lexus or the LS, that NEVER happens to a Lexus. If they want the car to look magnificent, they make it happen, and it is consistent with the message they want portrayed.
Lexus is the best car maker in the US at marketing. And have been for 15 years.
Mercedes needs to work on more than just value and quality.
DrFill
Your position is that vehicles like Porsches and BMWs are bought because of their great performance and that folks who hate the styling will buy these cars anyway to get the rest.
The 911 does have Beetle influences, but I still find it breathtaking to look at.
I believe that styling plays a part in the consumer's head when a final choice must be made-who knows how much-one can't quantify human behavior.
When I saw photos of the new 5 series in 2004, I was disappointed because that car was to be my next goal.
However, when I saw it at the dealer, particularly in silver, I found it to be quite striking.
If I believed it to be ugly, I would have gone with the 330i and pocketed the difference.
As I understand them, they almost instantly adjust automatically in response to hard cornering to help give the driver the added lateral support that is needed under those conditions.
It's ingenious. I've never heard of them being used before, and I think that this is evidence of new technology and innovation put to good use at Mercedes Benz.
Those seats are also available in the E-class. (I drove an E500 with them.)
BMW has them in their new M5, as well.
More than a few cars don't photograph well. You say its a bad pic, I say the main point of the print ad is the writing. It isn't one of those fufu pics in which the car is set to some stunning background.
Besides, its not like Lexus cars look good in any of their ads. :P
M
Couldn't have said it better myself. An arrogant attitude is why the U.S. manufacturers "fell from grace" to begin with. Besides, the Camry is arguably a better built car than the Accord. If Toyota subscribed to lexusguy's philosophy, why would they bother taking apart an Accord; especially when they sell more Camries than Honda sells Accords? (Ford Taurus, anyone?)
Coming from a former military man, history has proven time and time again that the most devastating mistake one can make is to underestimate his/her adversary. It doesn't matter how superior you think you are to them.
BTW, I like what I see so far regarding the new Mercedes ads. I think the Mercedes marque will be perceptually elevated. I am not convinced that there is adequate motivational content, however. But, often those types of ads run seperately. We'll watch them for a while and see how they evolve.
When it gets down to it, however, the BEST thing for Mercedes, IMO, is to have improved products, and I absolutely think Mercedes is addressing that, not perfectly, but deliberately and successfully.
And . . . it would be an endless argument to decide if Lexus has done the "best" at marketing, as some Lexus fans would like to "own" and "claim".
My take on that would be that their ads have been MORE than adequate, very effective, and Lexus has clearly received their ad-dollar's worth. But "best"? Hmmm.
TagMan
Simple, because the Accord, not the Camry, has been on the ten best list almost 20 times, and is pretty much the benchmark for the family sedan class.
Of course, I haven't even driven one yet. Have to see.
Should be quite a scene when I pull up to the Honda dealership in my 545.
Swarm! Swarm! Swarm!
Not all the time (depends on the purpose of the advertisement; info-ad, support ad, image builder, public service/awareness... yadda yadda yadda), but in the car biz I would have to say that they are image pieces. The print is there just to back up the image. And, in an image piece, you want the ad to evoke emotion; you don't get that unless you are writing a romance novel....
Eyes on the car everyone! Oh, and what's that, it goes in 5 seconds? Wow!
If Matrix were here, he'd laugh too.
Take the gloves off and start swingin'!
Alright, let's see if you'll follow this line of questioning:
1. Was that a good picture of a vehicle for a national print ad campaign?
2. I omitted BMW for three very good reasons. One, their ads are consistent to their slogan and mantra, which has NEVER changed. Advertising for a company that never changes, nor has to change, is not particularly difficult. Second, I'm hard pressed to EVER remember a BMW ad, print or otherwise. And third, most of BMW's SUCCESSFUL advertising is through word of mouth, relative to the car's dynamics, and uniqueness compared to the competition in this regard.
So how good is BMW at advertising again?
3. Lexus was NOTHING 15 years ago. I had as a better chance of taking over America (and I don't think the world's ready for me
They were #1 after 10 short years; unprecedented! People still talk about, reference their ORIGINAL, 1989 ads today, at the 2006 NAIAS, they tied in their legendary champaign glass ad into an entire motif encompassing the Lexus LS display, to the delight of all in attendance.
The fact that, off the top of my head, I can remember 3 ads, by Lexus, that are now 10, 15, 17 years old, and I wasn't even in the car market?!? I was a snot-nosed punk teenager! I was mackin' this sweet 23 year-old, but I had trouble getting an MTA bus (Still do!)!
Mercedes has made a great ad now and then, but Lexus has been consistently strong, and memorable:
GS and Macbeth
Original LS (champaign - ball bearing, heat lamps, railroad tracks)
1993 LS (archer's bullseye, might've been the '95, but I'm pretty sure it was a mid-gen facelift for 1993)
1997 ES (Curvy road - What was that?)
2003 RX (competing engineers driving it, changing the world, again)
Mercedes definitely loses points for this last ad. Holmgren laughs at that play call. Good text, bad execution. The photo butchers the ad.
Why do you think Brooke Burke is in every stupid ad, from Gambling to Cheeseburgers (during the Super Bowl)? Because she looks great on film! A guy might spend a minute with the ad if she's all over it.
It's getting to the point where the advertiser is a footnote, but...
DrFill
What do you think?
TagMan
M
M