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My '98 750il has been to the dealer 19 times in 45k miles, my '95 740il went in more often than that. These cars are a lot of work to keep running properly. When they do there is not much that can touch them for performance and style. IMO they lost all sense of style on the 745, and like I said before, that was the deal breaker. I am absolutely in love with my new S600, copious speed, style, AND it is reliable.
I'm an Audi owner, so I'm not loyal to BMW. Just reporting what I've heard and seen.
M
Now I do not think the MB C320 is an ugly car but you should spend some time reading all the problem posts regarding the latest MB C320 on that board. I actually got to the point of ordering one but cancelled after reading about problem after problem on that model (including key fob problems). I even delayed my order until the second production year but serious problems continue.
I eventually bought an LS430 (for not a lot more money than the loaded C320 that I had wanted) and am very glad I did.
M
Quattro in snow is unbelievable. My previous car was a 1998 4Runner and the A4 is better in the snow than the Toyota was. The only drawback in bad snow is less ground clearance, but that wasn't a problem this winter.
If I could have any car right now (under $45k), it would be an A6 2.7T with a manual tranny. Either that or an S4. I think Audi has some of the best looking cars (subjective, I know), with beautiful interiors and gives you a lot of bang for your buck.
However after putting my money down I had to wait and wait for delivery. While waiting I reread the boards (see the C class board here on Edmunds) and saw all the problems.
So I went back to my alternatives. By then the new ES300 was out. It was better but still too much like my old ES. The dealer had a new early production 2001 LS430 that they had priced to sell as the 2002s were arriving. I had not considered it up until then as I thought it was out of my price range. However, after driving, and appreciating the car and Lexus quality control even more due to the C320 problems and as the cost was not such a huge jump after the no-haggle price I had settled for on the fully-optioned C320, I bought.
sysop "Mercedes-Benz C-Class (Sedans Board)" Apr 17, 2002 3:09pm
Before I decided to buy I read every post on that board from the beginning (there are now over 5000 posts). I saw there were some problems but I too assumed that they were teething problems and would go away. When they continued I pushed my order out to the second production year. Then, after waiting for three more months for delivery I had enough time to see that the problems were still far too frequent for me so I bailed.
The problem posts started to appear around Nov 2000 and continue to today. I am amazed that so few appear on the MBZ site now as they were there last October when I last spent any time there.
There have been problems with (purge valves, electronic keys, seats breaking, trim falling off, trunks-doors-sunroofs not opening, engines stalling, doors not sealing and others). And these are not one offs, many posters had the same problem.
Now not all the posts are negative but I think a conservative estimate is that 1 in 5 (while I was active)deals with a problem. And this is well into the second year of production. I waited through the first year for the problems to go away but they are still occurring.
And if you read a recent post of mine you will see I ended up buying a 2001 LS430 (first year of production) and the only problem I have had is that the Automatic Sound Level control had to be corrected. So I don't accept that poor quality is a given on a new production vehicle - Lexus has proven otherwise.
I was at first very disappointed in having to pass on the C320. I think it has great styling, handling and a lot of potential. But my experience has made me believe the news articles I read that state MB has fallen recently from 3rd to 10th in automotive quality control.
And some may say that all those who post their C problems are over-represented on the site because they want to solve/share their problem. But I think you would be hard pressed to read about so many problems with one model on any other board.
M
I am not saying they are in similar types of cars. The C320 being a very sporty, entry level low-end luxury car. The LS is much bigger, not as sporty, high end luxury car (IMO). But the LS gave me much more than I started out looking for in most areas (and a little less in the sport area). But the relatively small difference in cost was worth it.
And the original purpose of my post was to respond to the person (who I believe is a MB fan) who did not think any other car company would introduce a new model with as many problems as BMW has done with the recent 7. I think the C situation disproves this.
It is true, considering the price differences, one should not expect the same level of refinement in a C320 as a 7 series. However, I think MB has a problem on its hands if the C is an attempt to win over customers who will go on to buy other, more expensive models. While the C looks great (IMO) it continues to be plagued with problems - turning off future buyers.
M
I personally didn't see anything in the C topic that would have stopped me from buying one. Consider this, I pulled a service history on my 45k mile '98 BMW. How about 19 visits to the dealer for service work since new. Only five of those are scheduled events, the rest are repairs. My '95 had that many in the year I owned it. I love the way they drive, I love the way they look. I could have bought Lexus, but I wouldn't enjoy the car. Others get the most enjoyment from not having to see their dealers at all. Different strokes.
But back in October 2001 if you were considering the C, as I was, you would have seen that there were problems serious enough to have many of the same cars in the shop multiple times in a month. And this was into the second year of production.
There were theories going around that, because many of the Cs were being asembled in Brazil and other places, maybe the quality was dropping.
But for me, "coming from a Japanese brand" (i.e., accustomed to reliability) I did not want to pay more money for a car that, granted, had good style and handling,(safer is debatable and only time will tell if MB continues to last longer) but spent too much time in the shop; so I stayed with Lexus.
And I could have bought a MB but I would not have enjoyed the "lack of a car".
And I, like I suspect, many Lexus owners, could have bought much more expensive MB models - we just don't necessarily equate more expensive with better (even if it does give you the opportunity to become very close friends with your dealer service manager).
It appears to be true that you don't see your dealer as much with a Lexus but that is only one of its many virtues.
Yes, some of the posters claim that the cars are not as bad as the other posts make them appear. It is true it is hard to get a representative sample form these posts. My point is that "relative to other boards" there is a disproportionate number of negative posts. And for a car manufactured by a company that has a (past, at least) reputation of high quality.
I suppose you can consider all the C problems as resolvable - if you read the posts you will see that some of these "resolved problems" involved the customer swapping their C for an E model!
Again, my original reason for posting was to challenge the comment that no other car company would introduce a new model with as many problems as BMW's new 7 series - I suggest that MB may be just as guilty, or worse with the C.
I have rambled enough on this topic so I will stop now and let you have the last word.
V-12power - The Lexus is very safe and given the 90-95 models I see on the road probably holds up as well if not better than the S-class of the same period. The car is extremely satisfying, at the top of the shelf in luxury, has the best service by far from dealers and the company and dealer network make you feel like royalty. It has a great ride and more than adequate handling. I could easily have written a check for an S-600. But I don't prefer to spend that much money on a car. Seriously considered the S-500 (as did many of us on the LS board) but found the LS430 better for my tastes. Money was not the issue. I prefer the LS430 for its virtues which are many and all of which are important to me. The fact that it rarely needs service is wonderful and important to me but the primnary reason to buy are its luxury appointments, phenomenal ride and serene quiet cabin. You seem to live in a surburban area where you may find yourself alone at the wheel and can get a bit free on empty highways. In the big city areas that is very rare. And it is in the big cities where 80% of these cars are sold. Besides the LS430 makes 0-60 in 6.3 seconds so it is hardly a slouch. I always see a high proportion of 7, S-class and LS owners driving conservatively. A few, like me drive pretty fast but they brake pretty quickly on turns - so as I've said many times before - the handling may be there, particularly on the 7 but it doesn't seem to be used by this class of buyers. Nothing personal or mischevious intended here - I just don't think you really know the reasons LS people choose their cars.
M
By the way the driver lives in the next town over from me. Needless to say I'll use him whenever I travel which thankfully is a lot less than in the past. Without question a great car but I still prefer the LS430.
Last thing - I noticed many more LS400/430's on the road in London than in the past. They must be penetrating the market there now. I also see that they still make the S-320 in the new style in Europe. I've also come to appreciate that an S-class with tinted glass is much more striking than one without it. I think as DVD players become standard or part of option packages in the future we'll see cars all such cars have the tinted windows direct from the factory, which is the only way I would want them.
You acurately describe why many chose the LS430. They do not drive in an enviroment where the added capabilities of say and S600 would be noticable or worth the added expense. Dealer service is the best, no dispute there. Beyond that everybody has their own priorities on car buying. I can see/feel/hear the differences in my 750 and 600 vs the Ls430. I am willing to pay more for the cars to get that advantage. It is just one of my priorities. I am also going to become a Ferrari owner soon. Not much point in that either, a new Vette has all of the performance. But it lacks some of the feel, heritage and mystique, all things many find foolish, but things I am willing to pay for. I can't fault anyone for buying a Lexus, they just are not for me. It is not for a lack of trying either. I have looked at every new LS since their inception, more than once in all cases. It is just not me. My mother in law still has her '94 SC400, it has 120k miles on it with very few problems and great service from the dealer. She will probably replace it with a RX300, a car I think is a joke. She will not waver from Lexus, and who can blame her. Still the styling and general feel of the cars does not appeal to me at any price.
I think there is a rule in Japan about their cars being a certain length in order to avoid taxes or something like that. Thats another reason why Lexus went to such a tall body in order to get the most room from the least amount of space on the outside.
M
They're giving you a hard time on the S-class board. You need to put out the fire - but in a nice way.
Have only driven an A8, never rode in the back seat. I doubt that it blows away the S as you put it, but it could be better...Audi tends to make better seats than MB or BMW (non sport seats) anyway.
M
By the way the A-8 doesnt't seem to be all that reliable.
M
Can't make myself like that BMW 7 no matter what. I'm 100% with v-12 power on that one.
v-12power - great looking car in your pix on the S board. Much prefer the S over the 7. I hope your neighbors don't read these boards.
M
I recently bought a 4-year old LS400 from a Lexus dealer. Lexus gives your car an extended 3 year bumper-to-bumper "certified pre-owned' warranty. The dealer then offered to add two years to that warranty for $1,400. This means for $1,400 I can have a car with a bumper to bumper warranty up through nine years of age. I feel safe in saying that BMW would never consider doing anything like that, because the major repairs would eat their lunch.
ljflx, My wife seems to agree with you. The 750 hasn't left the garage in a week or so. She seems to have grown roots in the S600. I can't blame her. The 750 is a great machine but, the S is so much more. It is faster, quieter and has more usable luxo features. Of course the 7 debuted in '95 and the S in 2000. It is amazing how fast things change these days.
M
One deal is for a $52.3k Q which you can buy for $50k or lease for $639 per month for 39 months with $3k down. I then wandered looking for another Q deal and I came across a 745I which you can buy for $71k or lease for $849 per month for 36 months also with $3k down. The same add offered an X5 V8 for $54,300 or lease it at $699 per month for 36 months but with $4k down. All are 10k miles per year and BMW throws in the free maintenance. These are all deals through the Mfrs. so clearly sponsored programs.
Now I applied some math to this and I found that while the Q is discounted $2300 it actually costs more relative to MSRP (on a lease deal) than does the 7. The Q sells for 70% of the 7's price but its' lease is 75% of the 7's lease price plus 3 extra months. The X-5's lease is an additional $1k down and while it sells at 76% of the 7's price it leases at 82% of the 7's lease price and this is in the same family. Interesting. It would seem the 7 is set-up for leasing and BMW is taking a big chance on residuals. Infiniti with the Q - so heavily criticized for discounting - is taking no such risk. The X-5 is hard to understand. Here BMW seems to be betting on a lower residual relative to the 7 even though the truck is hot now thus you are paying the higher price. Thus they are taking no risk and letting the buyer pay in the same way as Infiniti.
Another interesting item is the total cost. The Infiniti's all in cost after 39 months is $57,211 (3000+24921+29290 residual) which is is 115% of the $50k sale price. The 7 is $79,000 (3000+30564+45437 residual) which is 111% of sale price and the X-5 is $62,284 (4000+25164+33120 residual) which is 114% of sale price. Infiniti is certainly holding up a lot better than anyone would think looking at the real TMV vs. MSRP prices on Edmunds. Remember that the TMV becomes that $50k and not the $52k the way Edmunds does it. Lexus and MB don't seem to ever advertise lease deals (except the IS300 and the C) anymore so I couldn't bring them in.
With BMW taking the risk on the 7 this is certainly not a car to buy but one to lease and decide on in 3 years. Look at the factors. If you assume you can get 5% interest return (treasuries are yielding more than this) on your money now then a compound interest factor on $71,000 means you are paying $82.2k for a car that you can lease and then buy for $79k (plus maybe a $500 application fee). And if you think you can better the 5%.......
http://www.germancarfans.com/News.cfm?NewsID=2020524.002
M
http://www.maybach-manufaktur.com/d/language.html
M
M
According to the article, "Pitched as a luxury saloon to take on the Lexus LS430 and the Benz S-class, it didn't stand a chance...the Seville might have been an advance for Cadillac, but only in the same way as Hindustan's 1971 Vauxhall Victor-based Contessa is an advance over its 1954 Morris Crowley derived Ambassador....the Seville was a car way off the pace, not least because technically it was spectacularly misconcieved. Why? Because all the action occured at the wrong end...this was the world's most powerful front-wheel-drive car...the tyres only escaped howling extinction because of the severely interventionist policy of the traction control system."
A Vauxhall spokeman said, "It was the wrong car for the UK market, and there was no point in trying to continue...there is light at the end of the tunnel...if the new CTS does well in Europe, we might bring Cadillac back."
Wow!
They spent millions and millions of dollars at Hamtramck (I believe) to retool the factory to build right-hand-drive models for Europe. It is very expensive to do this. Also, the cost of creating a dealer network to cover a country of 50 million, as well as failed marketing, not to mention the fact that most Sevilles sold for 7,000 pounds under the manufacturer's recommended price, and also the fact that for the 500 sold in the UK, there are approximately the same amount still unsold...
sounds like a money-losing proposition to me.
Vickers the parent company of RR before VW stepped in begged the British Government for help and was soundly rejected. Unbelievable.
That said I love Bentleys. Me and co-worker went down the street to look at some of them, I work the late, late shift so the lot was closed and we could look at the ones outside uninterrupted. All I can say is that I hope a person that can afford to drive something like that is truly appreciative of their station in life. Nothing like a Bentley, that part is true. Hopefully VW won't turn them into Giant Passats.
M
--Merc1
The British government is doing things for their cars, now at least. Recently, they paid something like $69 million to the Premiere Auto Group to continue to keep production of Jaguar models exclusively in England, and they did the same for Aston Martin, but I don't know how much they paid for it. I also don't know why you'd harbor ill-feelings towards Volkswagen AG for owning Bentley, as there would be no more Bentley had VW done nothing. The same is true of Rolls-Royce and BMW, and Jaguar/Aston Martin and the PAG. In fact, even though I'd rather see all of these companies be independent, they are building better cars under the ownership of larger companies than they ever had in the past.
J "CaddyLac"
I do not see the relevance of your last post. Also, BMW has already designed a new Rolls-Royce, so although they may not officially own them, "soon" is more like now.