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Comments
1. I have but one life to give for my country.
2. I can't fit into the driver's seat of a Porsche Boxster.
hp - number 2 will cause serious depression and it means you'll need counseling.
TagMan
Before you jump on me, mein host, I'm trying to make a point:
When I went biking this morning, I passed a 2007 gray Camry in a driveway.
What an improvement! The car actually looks expensive. Pretty darn good-looking.
Now here's the promised point: From all the photos I've seen, the new LS puts the Camry to shame in styling, as well it should, so IMO, the new LS should be quite the looker when we get a chance to actually see it up close and personal this Fall.
TagMan
Really bad news for competitors.
Well, it certainly turns the heat up another notch.
I think it's a good thing, though, as the competition is also cranking up the styling. For example, Mercedes styling is moving along very nicely, IMO. I really like the direction that MB styling has been taking recently (NOT the R, though, which I hate). Even Audi styling (althought the front grill could stand a refresh or even a re-do, IMO) is right up there with the best (and their interiors are second to none). BMW styling is a little mixed lately, IMO, but seems to be constantly on the move, innovative and generally well-received (even if sometimes contraversial). Some of the others are already style champions and certainly don't need to fear Toyota's styling.
What I'm saying is that although Toyota styling is clearly improving across the board, I don't see them as the big style leaders that the others should fear.
Who do you think should be concerned about Toyota's styling the most?
TagMan
Take a look at the IS, which may or may not be as lithe on it's feet as the 3-Series, but it does one up it in the styling category. It makes the 3 look (dare I say it), staid and conservative, even in light of the Bangle Assault on Munich. The GS has lost it's upright and overly boxy butt in favor of an ultra-modern look and clean, swooping design that evokes major attitude. But the biggest change of them all has to reside with the ES, which makes the '06 model look like a discount rental model, IMO. Lexus has finally given the bread and butter car a much more appropiate and appreciative styling design, particularly discarding the fish-mouth look. The overall appearance of the car both inside and out is very remarkable. And it now has the performance(semi maybe) to give it some poise on the road.
BUT, as you duly noted, the Euro cars are ever evolving, with Mercedes and Audi finally abandoning the traditional style in favor of ultra-modern and hip styling, especially M-B. Never would I thought they'd take the classic S to this level, which has apparently paid off. And the styling of the GL is so good that M-B managed to hide it's incredible size and weight by giving it more curves and creases. Audi is on a mission too. The Q7 for instance is a far cry from the tradition of the company, and the upcoming R8 and A8's will definetely give car nuts like ourselves something to talk about.
Good old bland Honda.
I actually preferred the look of the previous Accord to its redesign. So boring-looking.
Honda should not only be worried about Toyota, but should also be watching Hyundai. They make some of the best-looking SUV's and sedans, IMO, in the moderate price range. They have poured it on aggressively.
If they start upgrading their interior materials, watch out!
I drove a Sonata recently, and its brakes, steering and handling were surprisingly good.
The Hyundai Azera sedan, at about $28k, could be a significant player in this segment.
But back to Lexus. Starting this Fall, there will obviously be a real battle unfolding between the LS and S-Class.
I eagerly anticipate the sales-comparison figures going forward say for the 6 months from October to March.
Should prove very interesting!
I eagerly anticipate the sales-comparison figures going forward say for the 6 months from October to March.
Should prove very interesting!
Well, with die-hard BMW fans already willing to trade in their 5 series on the new LS460, who knows what can happen!
TagMan
My prediction: Howard will find that even though the styling and features are good, the new LS won't handle the way his Bimmers have, and he will decide that his aging butt can handle the BMW 5 series comfort seats for at least one more lease cycle. In fact, Howard have you driven the 750 and compared it to your 545? I would be surprised if you didn't find the 750 disappointing as well.
I am getting a kick out of the Eurofans joining the Lexans in talking about the new LS as if any reviewers - or anyone else - have ever driven the new car and found the driving dynamics have improved. It would be nice if that turns out to be true, but I remain skeptical. And this is spoken as a former BMW and current MB owner who now owns an LS with all-season low profile 18" tires, and I am satisfied with the LS' handling, even if it is not quite as "tight" as the German cars. The LS is set up to appeal to the typical American consumer, not to car magazine reviewers or Autobahn cruisers - and IMHO I doubt Lexus is going to change its formula for success in the US.
Good old bland Honda.
I actually preferred the look of the previous Accord to its redesign. So boring-looking.
I agree. Honda aimed squarely at the Corolla with the incredibly bland '01 version of the Civic, and got badly burned because of it, so this time they went as far as they could in the opposite direction. The Accord's design is awful, I think the new rear is actually worse than it was before.
IMO, the Sonata is what the '03 Accord should have looked like.
The word is the GS430 will be replaced by the GS450h ONLY! The GS will not offer 3 engines.
No V8 powered GS will be available, at least for 2007.
A V8 model is a slim possibility for 2008.
That is all.
DrFill
While I agree that the LS is not designed to be a performance car, I believe very much that Lexus is very aware of the years of criticism regarding the styling and handling. The LS is a very important car, and I highly doubt that they would only address the styling and intentionally leave the handling to remain the same.
I expect that the increase in HP is only a part of the performance improvement that we will see from Lexus. This will, of course, give them better 0-60 times, and importantly, if they achieve improvements in cornering as well . . . then I would have to say that they will have achieved a very smart evolution of this vehicle . . . meaning improvements in styling AND genuine performance, as well as the ever-improving technological advancements and features.
TagMan
The 750 is not my kind of car-I don't need a big bloated Bimmer.
It took me quite a long time to get used to the increase in mass of the 545 coming from 12 years of 3-series vehicles.
The 545 will get me arrested. It is a dangerous vehicle-you can't drive it anywhere near the speed limit. And everybody on the interstate seems to speed up and try and pass me. They see my vehicle as a personal challenge.
Today, this nut in a red G35 (good-looking car!) had me going over 100 but I finally let him get ahead of me. He would have gotten us both killed. I don't mind playing the game, but a death wish I do not have.
They simply won't let me go from point A to B without taking me on.
While you guys were sitting comfortably at your computers, I was out there fighting for my life on the interstate. :sick:
I think I need a vehicle which "blends in" more, like a beautiful gray 2007 LS 460.
We should compare same variables for both cars.
6 months of sales data from introduction of each vehicle going forward.
Should prove interesting. Should also prove very close, IMO.
Hey, lj, my prediction will come true? Very nice.
TagMan
So... their plan is to surrender 400-500 V8 sales a month to the competition? That doesn't make a lot of sense. They are only producing enough 450hs for a maximum of 166 sales a month. They've been able to move 600+ V8s a month in the past.
LG - you think the doc has erroneous information?
TagMan
hpowders - BMW should drop the 7-Series? I had to do a doubletake at the user ID when I read that post. No, they can't drop the 7-Series. As others have stated BMW's overall image would suffer relative to Mercedes' without the 7-Series. The 7 is really BMW's only car that competes in the high-end space with Mercedes on a regular basis. The Z8 and 850Ci before it didn't do much for BMW, but the 7-Series is sought out by BMW buyers who want that type of experience in a larger car, IMO. A 750i Sport has nearly the same ride (read: firm) as lesser BMWs, but of course they can't make it ride/handle like a 330i or 550i, the ride would suffer too much considering it is at heart a "luxury" car.
OAC - Thanks for the award. I've been here since 1999, but strangely my start date is April 13, 2001, the same date as Lenn's???? Pat??? I also would like to state that for the record that I maintain nearly the same level of knowledge about all German cars (and cars period for that matter) as I do Mercedes-Benz.
Designman & ljflx - Touching stories. I haven't had to deal with anything like that, at least not yet.
M
See, this is where you lose me. If the 750 feels "bloated" to you, how is an LS460 going to feel acceptable? I have to believe the LS is always going to feel bigger and higher off the ground than a 5 series, let alone a 3 series - because it is! If the LS460 handles as well as a 750, I think even TagMan would say Lexus has accomplished its goals.
Is it me or is the Hyundai Sonata blatantly "similar" to the previous generation A6 in its overall shape and lines? It and the new Camry SE are some surprise lookers from the Asian corner in their respective segments.
Mercedes-Benz is also having a sales party of their own. Sales up 21 percent in May 2006 compared to May 2006. The new GL is a hit if early sales are anything to go by. The E,SLK, and SL are also pulling their weight. They're giving away 06' E's ahead of the 07's landing at the end of the month. The only fly in the buttermilk is the R-Class, the only one not living up to projections.
M
I like the 7 but for that size and price, I would prefer more luxury.
BMW's interiors and seats are pretty much the same across the line.
I would be spending more money, stare around me in the driver's seat and would be thinking, haven't I been down this road already?
There are better choices in the HELM realm, IMO.
For that size and price of vehicle, I would rather give up a bit of performance and go with a more comfortable vehicle, perhaps the new LS.
After 13 years and 3 BMW's later, I may be due for a change.
But then again, I have had these thoughts before and the competition couldn't convince me to change.
I will drive the LS in the Fall and I'll see.
Which is the only trim they didn't test?
You guessed it-the only interesting one, the SE!
M
Welcome back, Merc1.
LG/DrFill: Who makes the Crown Athlete again ? That car is stunningly beautiful. Its what the new GS should have looked like. Drove alongside one all the way from Narita Airport to downtown Tokyo (1+hr ride) and what a beautiful car it was.
Shocked that I stared and stared at a Bangle-5 today on the streets of Tokyo (lots of Bimmers here of course) and couldn't help but admire it somewhat. It was dusk and the rings around the headlights were lighted low giving the car a lithe and menacing look.... I haven't paid that much attention to it until now... I'd say the best looking of the new Bimmer designs... Did I just say that ??? Seems like I have this love-hate thing for the Bangle-5. Some days I am all over it, some days I just can't bear to look at it... What gives ! Am I the only one, or am I just paranoid about this car !!! And yes, Blkhemi, I like your diagnosis of the new IS v e90. The latter is just kinda subdued-looking. Cannot believe it. What saved it is the legendary drive... To that, BMW owes its success, certainly not the new look.
New Accord is just plain ugly. The new Sonata is a blatant copy of the previous Accord. Of course, the worst rip-off copy of all is the new Jetta which is a total rip-off of the current Corolla - from the front all the way to the rear... New Camry is not bad-looking, especially if you dress it in the SE gab, with all that body-molding and dual exhaust ... very sporty look, for sure. New ES is equally good. Lexus should sell boat loads of it.
The new S remains a stunner ! Me likey the new S more and more...
Looking forward to learning more about Lexus' plans and more importantly timelines and prices, if possible... Fat chance on prices, but maybe I'd learn a thing or two about release timelines and any testing of the 460, if any...
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/06/01/009345.html
In Japan, Toyota sells the Crown and the Aristo (Lexus GS). I think the Crown is intended for people who want a mid-sized version of the Celsior (Lexus LS). It's more conservative looking than the GS, and the interior is much more luxurious. You can buy the top version, the Majesta, with a V8 and AWD. I wish Lexus offered that in the states.
I've been here since the early part of 1999 also. The best I can figure, that 2001 date is the date we switched to this platform, Web Crossing, from WELL Engaged. It's funny that it's a Friday the 13th. :P
I dont know. I had assumed that the strategy was going to be similar to the Camry hybrid/V6, where the 450h would slot in the middle of the 350 and 460. Killing off the V8 instead basically hands 6,000 sales a year to the competiton. Even if they plan to majorly ramp up production of the 450h, that still doesn't account for people who might be willing to trade a few mpg for actual trunk space.
But I am amenable to this SHORT-TERM strategy! Let the 450h establish itself, build market share/awareness for awhile, let the LS460 tout the Next-gen Lexus V8, THEN bring back the GS460 for Fall 2007.
Protecting the LS Launch, with the new V8, is the key part of this short-term plan. The new V8 can trickle down to the GS next year. Sound like a plan?
The 450h has similar power to the M45, is FASTER than the GS430, yet gets considerably better mileage than both! So I think it should cover 6000 sales.
And the new GS350 will see a nice sales spike, so between 'em, I'm not worried. Not worried in the least!
Lexus can sell BOTH the 350 and 450h as having the power of V8's , but the economy of a six. Can you think of a better hot button these days than that?
Let's say Lexus drops the ball here! The New LS' sales spike will more than cover any collateral damage! I see how Lexus has covered themselves on the top and bottom of the GS lineup.
I believe that is the plan, and it's a pretty good one.
DrFill
While trunk space is indeed important to some, I have never considered it to be a major factor, so long as there is ample room for golf clubs or typical luggage. Once that threshhold is met, the rest is just extra room ,IMO.
The bigger factor, IMO, is that there are still plenty of folks who simply don't want to go hybrid, and they perceive it as a wasted "premium". That's the way consumer reports and the media have painted it . . . as a waste of money. I personally think that, overall, it does make economical, environmental and performance sense in the case of the 450h, but try to convince the general public.
Toyota didn't just make the new Camry in hybrid format only, and I just can't imagine that the 450 would only be a hybrid. But then again . . . we'll see. I generally trust Lexus marketing, but I do not yet see the wisdom of this, if true. The doc's last explanation is plausible, however.
TagMan
The E-Class quite naturally will pull the grunt for MB, but shockingly to see it's sales this good as the freshened E350/new E550 on the horizon. The R-Class will remain a thorn in the side of DCX NA until they either abandon it State side or lower the price of admission to give it at least a chance, much in the same way Chrysler did the Pacifica. Speaking of, why not invest all of the R-Class' incredible architecture and design into Chrysler. It just seems more plausible to give this type of car to a more American company. Do you think that the 300 will be at home on a Mercedes lot with it's bold design? Probably not.
And to hoot, a fully laden R500 will empty the bank to the tune of $70k, which is a lot of dough for a crossover. And with the GL and M hanging over it's head, it doesn't stand a chance here. Interestingly enough, the GL outsold the M for the month and is still pulling strong.
As for Toyota/Lexus, Lexus' new/future car product is nothing short of applausible, but we're still in America, the home of the truck. Toyota will at some point have to revamp the luvable but quite old and expensive LX 470/Land Cruiser's as the competition is steadily improving, but those two are still with the status-quo. But they do remain some of the most comfortable to drive ladder-frame SUV's(save for RR and Escalade) around.
Diggin' the Merc GL! Very nice! hard to believe it shares genes with the R-Class, but you can even see it in the rear-quarter view. Good job!
Only problem is isn't this thing 5 years too late to the Full-size SUV party? If they built this when Caddy built the 2nd-gen Escalade, maybe Mercedes would have cornered that market? Not exactly Toyota-esque in reading the U.S. market, are they?
DrFill
I took a very close look at the new GL last week. This is a PERFECT vehicle for the upcoming diesel. I will seriously consider it at that time.
TagMan
I couldn't resist having a look at:
http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html
The author appears to me to be pretty ignorant of relevant concepts of acoustics, audio, material science, and ... well physics in general. I'd be happy to elucidate on the fallacies in that url, upon request.
John Feng
email: bfeng7@yahoo.com
Perhaps others will find it revealing as it exposes BOSE for what it is- the biggest over-priced rip-off in home audio.
Very happy with my Denon system which for $1000 runs rings around an equivalent Bose for $2500.
I too was diggin' on the HPX crossover concept at NY in '03. I thought it to be a huge step foward for the company but came away thinking that they'll never build it.
Side note: I hear that BMW is going the route of MB and producing a full-sizer off of it's next-gen, car-like X5 platform in SC for a possible '08/'09 release. As the X5 abandon it's trucky character, the full size (likely to be called the X7 sources say) is said to measure up quite nicely with the GL/RR but a smidge smaller than the brawny 'Slade and QX56. And they also say that BMW will finally offer a 3rd row seat for both the X5/7. The powerplant choice will kick off the joint hybrid engine development with GM in this car to be trickled down to the next gen 7 and current 5 Series.
Big issue for Lexus with the next gen SUV's is how do you play the hybrid game. Their desire is to go for power and I see that working better with cars than SUV's. If I'm Lexus I don't play the HP war on hybrid SUV's and go big time for luxury and MPG. That will quickly re-ignite their SUV sales to strong growth and push them toward 400K annual unit sales.
The upcoming diesel GL will be a big hit, IMO. I expect to see Acura use a honda diesel in its MDX in the future and I would not be surprised to see Audi use a diesel soon in their new Q. I do not expect BMW would use a diesel as soon because they might be first offering their new hybrid sytem in their X5/X7 SUV's.
I think that the diesel makes more sense, however, because the SUV is so often used off-road and for towing, and a diesel with its power, torque, and fuel economy is well suited for these applications.
TagMan
Lexus' SUV sales are dead in the water as is the LS and the GS is also declining vs. last year which leaves the new ES and IS as the only bright spots. Saying that old IS was a extreme dud really doesn't make much difference. At least Mercedes got a boost last month from two existing models, the SL and SLK. The latter of which hasn't been face lifted or anything showed a big increase for May 06'. The E-Class which posted a healthy gain last month hasn't even seen the 07's hit the ground yet. So expect a big increase there also.
Question is does Lexus have any model that hasn't been replaced or updated posting any sales gains like Mercedes does??
It *seems* you're basically knocking (however subtly) MB for posting a gain based on new models being largely successful (except the R) which is what is supposed to happen when new models are introduced. What was that a while back about "replenish mode"? Just like Lexus' SUVs are declining while they concentrate on their cars, Mercedes cars will now start getting the attention because all of the SUV models are in place now. The new S is obvious, the updated E arrives next month and the new C is less than a year away. What more can they do?
Lexus is more or less, probably more so in the same boat my friend. Fact is that neither MB or Lexus would be posting gains this year without new or facelifted (in the case of MB) models.
M
M
Maybe you meant CLK? Up 8%.
But I agree with you, Merc. Mercedes sales are doing fine. And they have a couple of fine products in the ML and GL.
They will always play second-fiddle to Lexus SUV sales, but that's nothing to be ashamed of.
DrFill
I'm probably the only person here that half-way likes the R-Class. However I did write a hard look post about it here which I think sums up its problems. The concept is viable I think, but the execution and most think as of late, the marketing was off as to who would buy such a vehicle.
M
I did mean to say the SL and SLK. I based that statement on the fact that they are not brand new models and they managed to post a gain last month something no existing Lexus model was able to do last month. A counter to LJ's point about only "new" models contributing to the stellar sales last month.
M
People who would normally be in the market for an LS have probably been holding off in anticipation of the new model.
I think its going to be curtains for the LC\LX. A new Sequoia based on the new Tundra will probably replace the LC, and a Lexus version will probably replace the LX. For whatever its worth, Lexus did change the name of the HPX concept to "Lexus Future Vehicle-X", so we may end up seeing something like it down the line.