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However, when you write "This technology will be doomed to the fringes and never be a big seller" you are basically assuming that the technology isn't going to improve over time. I differ with you there. Toyota has already stated that reducing size by 50-75% and reducing cost is a priority with hybrid tech.
Personally I believe that 10 years from now, the majority of the people on this board will be driving around in diesel-electric hybrids.
The Environmental Protection Agency rolled out a "hydraulic hybrid" delivery truck that it says will boost fuel efficiency by 60% to 70% in stop-and-go city traffic.
The truck has a system, patented by the EPA, that turns the energy from braking into stored energy that helps to turn the rear wheels. The test models will be delivery trucks used by United Parcel Service Inc., which helped design the prototypes. The U.S. Army, Ford Motor Co. and International Truck & Engine Corp., a unit of Navistar International Corp., are among those interested in pursuing the technology....
EPA Administrator Steven Johnson said the system could save companies as much as $50,000 over the 10- to 20-year lifetime of a delivery truck....
The EPA's system is different because it stores the energy in a hydraulic system that compresses nitrogen in a tank. When the compressed nitrogen is released into a second tank, it pushes the hydraulic fluid through a pump motor that turns the truck's rear wheels....
He added that the system also reduces brake and engine wear.
Sounds a little too kludgy for use in a sedan, but who knows?
I don't have to "gussy" up Audi as the company does that on it's on. I don't know what radar you've looked at but Audi's mainstream cars sell quite well, better than Lexus vehicles of the same price range(A4/IS v. A6/GS).
And all this talk about Audi's demand is nothing short of blasphemy. The A8 is shorted by export, not by demand in the US. Some have said they see A8's on the lots frequent, I've never seen an A8 sit very long. And the cars I named aren't limited by choice as the QP sells are not nearly what Maser wanted them to be. The FS has a 2 year wait due to material shortage, and the XJ sales have plummeted worldwide. By choice?? No, you try again and bring a "bigger" difference...
BTW: When you say that Audi isn't on people's radar screen then turn around and say it measures up shows exactly where your views are often slanted and unfortunately mis-informed
I might be willing to make certain sacrifices if the real world performance of hybrids was much better than it is now. I do a lot of highway driving, and a hybrid makes almost no difference there. Current Euro market diesels on the other hand can get mpg peformance similar to the Prius, but without the need for an ultra low drag "pod" body, zero grip tires (the video of the Stig on Top Gear trying to get the Prius to go around a corner is hilarious), and a hamster wheel engine.
I for one am definitely not going to buy a sedan with 7.5 cu. feet of trunk space. The SC400 coupe from '91 had 9 cu. feet.
When I was ready to buy my last car and wanted a HELM, I was unsure what car to buy. I did the research and ended up with a short list of BMW, MERCEDES AUDI and LEXUS.
The point is that IMO anyone who cares to "check it out" will find that ALL these vehicles meet similar standards. The choice of which one to buy is nothing but personal preference.
A similar situation exists with motorcycles. I have a BMW 1200C cruiser. When I got rid of my Harley to get the Bimmer, a lot of my fellow riders couldn't understand how I could buy such an inferior bike. But the reality is there are no bad choices at this level, just different preferences.
Eric
The unit has been unprofitable every year since its first model in 1998....
In an interview with The Wall Street Journal in January, Mr. Zetsche said that if DaimlerChrysler brought the Smart brand to the U.S., it wouldn't set up a separate dealership network for it, as it did in Europe -- a costly decision intended to help Smart create its own brand identity, but one that many industry analysts now fault.
Instead, DaimlerChrysler has sought a partner, such as a dealership chain, to help sell the car in existing Chrysler and Mercedes showrooms. BMW AG used a similar strategy when it encouraged its BMW dealers to add showrooms to existing facilities to carry its Mini line.
About bikes: I ran into the same prob when pursuing my next fun toy. I had a H-D Fat Boy(still got it), but I was interested in buying a bike that was easier to maintain, and decided on Star Roadster, an unproven brand that has now become one of the most requested brand of bikes.
Yes, I would have added dual pane glass to my car if I had thought more carefully about it, and the new rear-view camera looks great. But my car will serve me quite well for 4-5 years at 8K-miles or so per year.
As for the bikes, my Dyna-Lowrider was great...and the V-Rod is quite impressive....but for in NYC (which has been 30K of the 31K on my bike), the Bimmer cruiser has been unbeatable.
...but again, personal preference....
I kept the V-Rod up until last January when I sold it for a 1 grand less than what I paid for it. They keep value very well.
Let the war begin
HIGHYOAG and
HYOAG
and put a tag under them:
Sunny Spring Day....Decisions decisions decisions....
BTW, did you find the V-Rod slow handling because of its long fork extention? (longest of product bikes, I believe...great for highways but probably a bear in the city!)
My point being is that if we are in a war of styling the Lexus people don't have much ammo in a Camry. If you read back some posts and catch up a little, maybe you'll have a better understanding of the conversation as a whole. Once again, the styling ie Camry thing is just my opinion. I have been proved wrong before, I'm sure it will happen again. I just can't imagine to many people wanting to plunk down 75-100k for a car only to find the "cheaper" version on the Toyota lot next door.
Sells have nothing to do with it in the long run however, Lexus has proven that it can sell cars. This is mostly a styling debate which is subjective. you know what opinions are like, and everybody has one.
What in the world does that mean? Ok - let's put it in real words - Audi shorts its export of the car because there's little demand for it on the import shores. Life is simple.
Sounds like someone perhaps needs a trip to "Big Boys' Toys Anonymous".
Or just my jealous streak coming out? :shades:
Not very exciting or stimulating.
I don't care much for the rear tail-lights.
I guess its Toyota's "tribute" to BMW's Bangle; pretty much the way Hyundai ripped off the tail-lights of the previous generation Accord.
I guess the meeting in the Toyota boardroom went as follows:
"Well, even though we will never be able to match the handling of the awesome Germans, at least our vehicles can at least look like their cars. That can count for something."
This whole tyraid against Audi is so old that it is not even a topic anymore- except by only you.
But thanks for telling me about Audi's A8 capacity problem. Now I fully understand why they don't outsell the S-class in Europe or can sell many A8's here.
The statement, "You can't argue with success" really means something. Lexus has simply built a better helm at a lower price and most BUYERS recognize this. Try to spin it anyway you like but that is the truth. The marketplace does not lie.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
The LS, like it or not, is perceived to be a "value HELM."
I'm not knocking the car-just stating a fact-since it competes against the MB S-Class.
Remember-all S-Class buyers can afford an LS, but surely not all LS buyers can afford to step up to a MB S-Class.
The average LS buyer earns $250K a year and that was a stat quoted 3 or 4 years ago. Not all of them may be able to buy an S-class but a very high percentage can. That argument is a weak one.
"The LS, like it or not, is perceived to be a "value HELM." "
That's how it is marketed so there's nothing to like or dislike. That's why Lexus won't stray too much on price as they are holding true to the tenets they built themselves on - as would any successful business. They still have ample room to increase price and still be a value and with the LS all Lexus cares about is the S-class. So it can surpass an A8 and even a 7-series and still hold to its value tenet.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You could also say that the Audi is a VW with a nicer interior, Mercedes is a gussied up Chrysler, BMW in a big Mini and Jaguar is a fancy Ford Taurus. That would make about as much sense.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If you feel your money can be better spent elsewhere, then to YOU it is not worth that much money.
This doesn't invalidate someone else's choice, or make it wrong (or right).
BTW: The A8 and S are often neck and neck in Europe and elsewhere. Often times, the A8 will outsell the S, especially before the '07. So again, these baseless facts that have come about by yourself and others are just that: baseless and tired. The A8 is limited by export only on the restraint that the company has because they build them as fast as they sell. If Lexus sold as many LS' in the native Asia as they do here, then it'll be the same way. But then again, the A8 does outsell it there too, by quite a margin.
And more on the "value" quotent of the LS. Yes, it does win here. But a fully opted LS(average transaction of 70k) is where the big guns usually start, the A8, XJ, and 7. And with the average transaction of a S550 nowadays at 92-95k, it seems that the LS is the discount of the class. And with prices moving up only slightly, it's likely to stay that way. So in that saying, you really do get what you pay for...
The LJ v. Audi of America case has been thrown out, so why retry it??
Even in the best of times some people buy stocks and lose money, some people buy houses and lose money, and nearly everyone who buys a depreciating asset like a car loses money. Some just lose much more than they should.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
...and please reserve you sorrow. While your humanity is noted, it takes away from a factual presentation.
I'm not knocking the car-just stating a fact-since it competes against the MB S-Class.
Remember-all S-Class buyers can afford an LS, but surely not all LS buyers can afford to step up to a MB S-Class."
A. Slight correction. The LS is perceived as the "Best Value HELM". There's a difference.
B. Also surely, very few LS buyers see going to the S-Class as a step up.
DrFill
Perhaps a review of the word "Value" is in order? You may not be familiar with this word, as it is rarely used in association with an Audi. :P
DrFill
OK - I'll agree with you and I certainly hope the A8 stays around - but the sales in the US are still minimal and barely on the radar scope.
Oac, when you compliment others has anyone ever criticized you for it? I would thank you not to criticize me for complimenting Merc. He doesn’t need anyone to instigate him. He says what he wants. Let’s not make it an issue please.
On the subject of beefs here’s mine. It seems as if some in the Lexus camp would like to see German brands dead and buried, particularly Mercedes. I find this curious not to mention ire-provoking. I don’t recall hearing anything like this from fans of other makes even though they criticize competing brands. There are some hardcore car fans around the internet but I can’t say I have heard them revel in the prospect of another company’s misfortune.
Anyway, you have been very friendly and generous to me with your compliments. If I have said anything to cause resentment I apologize. I am here to read and write, not offend, not get wrapped up in tedious arguments, and not pound anyone over the head with my opinions. And I like to think that many of us are friends in spite of being faceless words traversing the ether.
I understand that Toyota is also on a leading edge with hydrogen and is also active with diesels. No matter what happens with hybrid, I would imagine they are prepared to adapt quite readily.
I am sensing a resistance to hybrid. Battery size and storage is one thing, but the convoluted technology is another. I think the idea of having several power plants of different nature is a source of concern for many, regardless of how perfectly Toyota pulls it off. I hear people saying . this is very complex and therefore subjects me to potential problems. Spending $24k on a Prius with conscience-laden concerns is a lot different from spending $55k on a performance sedan.
I think IS and GS are miscalculated so I believe Lexus is not as adroit with their product design as they are with manufacturing. Camry could be a bust and the LS600h a success or vice versa. Psychology and perceptions can sometimes preclude the significance of a company’s financials in the stock market. A similar dynamic can affect hybrid. I am not saying this will happen but I think it is possible and not improbable.
Early in the digital epoch there were high hopes for Apple and the ground-breaking Macintosh. We know what happened with Microsoft. These next several years will be interesting but to tell you the truth I would not be surprised at any direction hybrid takes, good, bad or indifferent.
So what else is new?
By the way, the Porsche Cayman S has twice the trunk space as the Lexus GS450h!
So if most owners of the LS and S drive these on lease purchases, do factors like interest rates, money factor, promotions, discounts, etc.... play a significant role in the drive-out price of that lease ? That's when you look at the 3-year timeline when many of these cars go off-lease. What are they truly worth, not the hyper inflated/bloated MSRP these cars are listed for ? And show us which S-class/LS430 is selling at MSRP, eh .....
So let's see what a 3-yr-old LS430 UL, vs S430 retails for ?
KBB retail price:
'03 LS430UL (MSRP of $71K) = $52,825 (Excellent rating, 36K miles)
'03 S430 (MSRP of $83K) = $53,475 (Excellent rating, 36K miles)
So is the S-class more uppity than the LS or are some S-class owners simply throwing good money after bad ? You be the judge....
You say that the Q7 has a boring ad. Well picture this, an RX350 ad that shows the car driving at night then all of a sudden it crosses paths with a deer. The ad was to highlight the swivel headlights of the RX. Nothing special as every carmaker has them now. No word on the mechanicals of the RX. Not utility. Not seating configurations. Nothing. Haven't even seen ads for the ES and IS yet. But they're still running the 1 year old ads on the LS', maybe in an attempt to sell the leftovers, which is brilliant.
BTW: The Q7 sales have been much higher than anticipated by Audi, so this one definetely won't be a sales dud. It sold more last month than the MDX, SRX, X5, and RX. Being a new model does help out with this for sure.
Everytime I see that commercial, I cringe.
Audi CAN make good commercials, doh. Or at least they have before, with the 1996 (?) A4 ("Get ready for the ride of your life!").
But they need to fire this ad agency, toot sweet! :confuse:
DrFill
Nobody needs to be sold on the RX350, as it has legendary a Deathgrip on the market!
When it comes to the RX, we don't need to start with a bowl and spoon. At this point it's "Say when!" when I bust out the whipped cream and cherries.
DrFill
I think IS and GS are miscalculated so I believe Lexus is not as adroit with their product design as they are with manufacturing. Camry could be a bust...."
Maybe someone has hacked into Hp's computer and conjured up this :confuse: of a post.
There is no response to ideas so off the wall, so here's hoping you'll see clear to have this imposter thrown off your estate IMMEDIATELY!
Hp wouldn't say anything that off-base.
Nooooooo! :surprise:
DrFill