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Comments
There has already been such a test way back in 2001, the only time the LS430 faced the S500 and the S500 won but of course that old test won't be acknowledged here, only the old tests that matter."
If you could provide a quote linking Lexus and Buick, that would help mount a credible argument
Buick has been trying (and failing) to replicate Lexus' design themes for many years, Rivera and Rundevous most notible examples.
As is usually the case with LS vs. S500 comparisons, the big question is value vs. price no object, as MT magazine puts the LS at the top of the class when value/price is factored.
Interesting how you disassociate yourself from the more comparable S430. You seem very eager to put the LS against the S500? Are you admitting the LS is far superior to the embattled S430? The S430 can't make up a 15HP difference?
DrFill
BTW, there was some chatter about Smart recently. If that car isn't priced like a rickshaw it's a lock for failure. Even then the odds are against it. German sass and swagger ain't gonna cut it here. I saw a Geo Metro a couple of days ago in NYC and said to myself, wow, this must be the only one on the face of the earth.
Thanks.
Read the C&D comparo between the SC430 and the CLK430 Cabrio in which the SC430 lost, as usual. That is where I remember the first such reference about a Lexus vehicle.
As is usually the case with LS vs. S500 comparisons, the big question is value vs. price no object, as MT magazine puts the LS at the top of the class when value/price is factored.
No they don't, becauase even then the LS lost to the A8 more recently.
Interesting how you disassociate yourself from the more comparable S430. You seem very eager to put the LS against the S500? Are you admitting the LS is far superior to the embattled S430? The S430 can't make up a 15HP difference?
I haven't disassociated myself from anything, I'm just pointing out to you that this about the "S-Class" losing to the LS430 isn't correct because it is only the S430 that has ever lost to the LS430, not the "S-Class" as a whole. You seem eager to ignore any tests that put the LS430 in any other spot than #1.
M
I think Smart is doomed in the US. My guess is a price of $12-14K, which will put it squarely against much bigger and more powerful cars from the Koreans, and of course all of the new sub-compacts from Honda, Toyota, and Nissan as well. I don't see anyone looking at a Versa or Fit and thinking, hey, how about a $12K toy car instead?
I also don't see a future for the smart here, mostly because we are a country of inconsiderate drivers. People in SUV's WILL try to push smart off the road, because "they had to be in that lane."
While the exterior styling is still tasteful, a little more differentiation form the '98-'03 would've been helpful. This works on the new XK, why not this classic car nameplate?
When looking for my next big purchase last year, I cross-shopped the XJ Portfolio. I'd got all of the brochures from Jag and thought the car was really interesting. First thing happens when the car started: You could here nothing but s/c whine, not something you'd want to hear in a $120k luxo cruiser.
Then I started studing the interior. Exactly a copy and paste job of the old model. The wood is decent, which is a Jag norm, but even the leather and plastics can't cut the mustard anymore. True, the relatively light body(maybe lightest in class??) moves the base 4.2L 300-hp car with haste, and the supercharged car is fast. But the dreaded J-gate takes most of the fun out of it. The 6-Speed tranny lurches at times, and the ride was surprisingly jarring, much unlike my W-12 I decided to get over it.
It does have some good traits, but it has many downfalls.
I mentioned the S430 by name, and didn't use the term "S-Class". In particluar, when refernceing the comparisons, I ALWAYS state the exact vehicle model.
Give me a test where the LS bombed out?
So your official response to the S430 consistently getting it's head handed to it, by the LSd others, is "Well...uh...well....you can't beat up my big brother, so there!"
DrFill
And just saw the pictures of the next CL
My condolences.
DrFill
Yeah, the blower is kind of fun in the KR, but it's a little crude for something like the Portfolio. A poor replacement for the XJ12. I'm not positive, but I think the excessive whine has something to do with it being a roots-type supercharger, which are cheap, but not known for their sophistication.
The screw-type Lysholm blowers on Mercedes cars don't seem to be as noisy.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My other weird-cheap-used idea for a big car is a paheton. This review makes it seem pretty interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm2swohEtYM
It's all just speculation.
- Front looks like the Chesire Cat
- Managed to carry over the ugly wheel flares from the new S.
- I thought real performance drivers of German cars wouldn't put up with "slippery" wooden steering wheels; only Japanese car buyers who put luxury above handling!
- Even the interior doesn't do much for me. Seems like a conglomeration of weird shapes.
- In summation, almost manages to make the SC look good.
It's worth taking one out for a drive anyway. 2-3 year old used Jags make pretty great buys. The interior of the XJ8 is certainly much nicer than a X-type 3.0 that you could get new for the same money.
The Phaeton at least looks 21st century on the inside, but there's a few things to keep in mind. Electronic overkill + VW usually = trouble. If things go wrong, can the local VW shop handle it, or do they have to order things from Germany while the car sits in the shop for weeks?
Its also pretty much the opposite of the Jag in that its all steel, and weighs a billion pounds, so the fun factor is firmly at zero. The Jag gets decent mileage (~20mpg), the Phaeton won't. Also, the V8 is going to be rather slow. You'll need the W-12 if you actually want to go anywhere in a hurry.
Honestly, I'd rather have a Passat 3.6. The Phaeton isn't any faster, or nicer looking. It's just bigger.
M
Not always Doc, there have been "S-Class" references by you in the past, but lately yes you do say "S430" but that is likely because I've pointed out that saying "S-Class" and LS430 really isn't correct.
So your official response to the S430 consistently getting it's head handed to it, by the LSd others, is "Well...uh...well....you can't beat up my big brother, so there!"
No my official response is that that S430 was surpassed by a bunch of newer cars, but the "S-Class" continues to be the standard.
M
The king reigns! I would assume that the new Jaguar XK was part of this? If so I'm sorta shocked since it was no doubt cheaper, lighter and likely better handling overall. Was the SC430 asked back again? I don't see why they'd bother with it. Was the 650i there? So many questions and the issue is days away from my mailbox!
All the negative comments about the CL will go the same way as the ones about the S-Class did, out the window once the car shows up on the street.
M
Honestly, I'd rather have a Passat 3.6. The Phaeton isn't any faster, or nicer looking. It's just bigger.
I get a kick out of reading your take on certain cars, all true here, the wording is so entertaining. I've driven the new Passat 3.6 with the Sport package, whoa...but it is priced out of the average family car buyer's reach. It is the best car in its class that is also priced out of its class. :sick: The Phaeton reminds me of the old W140 S-Class in its build and heft, a bank vault on wheels.
M
M
M
Thanks
The Phaeton is definitely the Tiger tank of the German luxury cars. There's absolutely no chance I'd own one out of warranty though. When I watched all of its fancy tricks in that video, all I could think was "gee, I wonder how many thousands of dollars that would cost to fix".
I can almost guarantee that eventually MB's design pendulum will swing back the other way, and many people then will be calling them "beautiful" and "classic". I'll be one of them. In the meantime, it's like what happened when designers came out with 4" lapels on suits - I'll just wait to buy until rational design comes back into style (or go to Brooks Brothers or some other non-trendy place if I absolutely have to replace a suit in the meantime).
Of course, all of this is just IMHO. Different strokes for different folks. :shades:
That includes me. Until I bought my '96 LS400, I drove an S class.
UAG=Uggggggghhhhhhh
So true...
I read more spews from Merc1 once again... one of those now tired tirades... Glad Pat_Host jumped in before I did... Sheesh...
BTW, a new survey of High Net Worth consumers (read: rich folks) ranks Lexus in Top 5. You'd think all the talk about MB and the S and affordability and stuff like this would have rich folks voting for MB... Lexus, the only car company to make the list is in very elite company indeed ! Does this survey imply that Lexus is up there at eye-level with the rich and famous ??? I guess we'll see when the next LS series gets here.
http://www.luxuryinstitute.com/doclib/doclib_popup.cgi?file=116-eefd4eb602726c90- - 6a7acab312ae844d.pdf
The Phaeton has some very nice qualities about it, mainly it's Audi sophistication in engines and safety/convenience features. The car is porky however, at over 2.5 tons vs. 4650 for the A8L V-8 and 4740 for the W-12. But the interior and fit/finish was only a notch short of Audi, for obvious reasons.
And now the Europeans are about to enjoy the new 2-door coupe version of it.
But all in all, I'd still take the Phaeton over the Jag.
I would say it has “hints” of those designs I think it is quite the looker elegant with an aggressive stance.
All I'll say was it was a test of $100k machines.
DrFill
The German carfans here often deride Lexus as if a German car owner wouldn't be caught dead behind of the wheel of one - after all they call it a majestic Buick or something that is very distasteful to a typical German car buyer. But the fact is a very high percentage of Lexus owners were (or also still are) German lux owners - and that negates so much of this whole handling argument.
Again you're talking about one car the LS430 which has done most of the converting over the years. Those former MB owners that drive a LS aren't driving one because its superior performance or anything even remotely pertaining to styling or other carlike things, they switched because MB dropped the ball in reliability and they saw the Lexus as a better value. So please spare us this about most Lexus owners being former MB owners because that likely isn't the majority of LS owners and it certainly isn't the case brand-wise. The majority of other Lexus model owners are from Japanese brands who moved up.
MB styling is going downhill fast. They lost Buno and it shows - badly.
Interesting since "Brunno" (don't know who Buno is) has been gone since 1999! Every Mercedes introduced since (basically everything in their current lineup) has nothing to do with him, so you're telling me they all look bad now?
M
Exactly because I see nothing wrong with the new CL. I remember the same tone when the S came out, but then most changed their tune after seeing it in person. Pretty bad if we've got to go down to talking about dash vents IMO.
M
Apparently you just don't get the point of my discussion of design. Re-read my two posts on the subject and I think you will see I talked about much more than just the vents, but I did mention them in (my apparently vain) attempt to give you something specific to look at that made my point very obviously and graphically. If the vents don't help you understand my point, then look at the outside mirrors (how unuseful is it to have the mirrors reduce down to a narrow point at the end where you need them to be wide to be able to see what is behind and to the side of you?).
You know, Merc, you certainly are entitled to disagree with me - especially in subjective matters of aesthetics - but how about explaining why you think it is "gorgeous", instead of just calling my posts shameful and "pretty bad".
I understood fully what you were talking about as far as the design of the car relative to Mercedes' previous designs. Exterior wise Mercedes' previous staid look of broad expanses of sheetmetal and stark detailing is what you're referring to no? Sure they've altered that look somewhat with their latest generation of cars, but this about them doing something different for the sake of doing so is where I don't see what you're talking about. If anything the new CL harks back to the old SEC coupes from the W126 80's S-Class.
The front of the new CL is nearly identical to/or a modern version of this and the wheel arches work much better on the coupe than they do the sedan because there is no rear door on the Coupe to throw them off. They kept the previous CL's stunning roofline, pillarless design, and fancy back glass also.
The new CL design works better than the new S-Class does IMO. Mercedes has managed to keep the best aspects of the previous CL, while looking to the past (SEC), and bringing it all into the future, IMO.
There is a clear and careful evolution going on here, nothing really brash beyond the wheel arches. See here. Pic
If the vents don't help you understand my point, then look at the outside mirrors (how unuseful is it to have the mirrors reduce down to a narrow point at the end where you need them to be wide to be able to see what is behind and to the side of you?).
This about dash vents and mirrors I find to be pretty much reaching, IMO. That about the dash vents we'll have to agree to disagree on. About the mirrors, I don't see how you would know whether or not the mirrors do their job or not without having seen the car in person yet. That mirror design is nearly common throughout the MB lineup and I don't see anyone complaining that they can't see out of them. Mercedes' mirrors run on the large side anyway an MB would never compromise their function for the sake of style.
Also, the previous criticism by some that you couldn't tell which Mercedes was coming towards you because the CLK, CL, C-Class hatchback and SL all wore the same face has been done away with with this new CL. It wears a proper (or classic SEC) top of the line MB Coupe face.
M
I like the CL better than the S-class as well, both exterior and interior wise. The only thing that really bugs me about it is Mercedes' steering wheel design in these cars. It looks like a giant fanny pack, with stubby little legs coming out of the bottom.
There is that vivid wording again...lol! Youch.
M
So when they tell me the LS is the best car they've ever driven or had, they are either hallucinating, fibbing or maybe you just don't have a clue about how 95-99% of drivers evaluate a car. I don't doubt your vision of what a pure enthusiast wants but I seriously doubt you give proper evaluation to what just about every other driver is looking for. BTW many of these people also have moved to the RX, the GX, the LX, the GS, have picked up an ES for their spouse and now an IS (or SC) for kids or as a toy. But keep on thinking it's only the LS doing the job if that is what you want to think.
The '06 Pontiac Grand Prix was just awarded the best car in the large car segment for both Initial Quality and Longevity. Yep, that's right. Even over everybodys's favorite, the new Avalon. The Ford Five Hundred scored at the bottom, and the Hyundai Azera was up there with the GP. The Ford big boys(Crown Vic and Grand Marq) scored horridly worst than previous years. The Buick Lucerne was second behind the GP.
This corelates in the HELM segment because with all of this talk about which is better based on mere tests is not worth it. It didn't help matters more that the GP's factory is also rated tops. MB, Audi, Lexus etc. etc. These companies build some of the best autos on the planet. But judging from the weightless tests, they're nothing. I have to say that I'll never look at these tests the same again.
1 – Porsche
2 – BMW
3 – Mercedes
4 – Lexus
5 – Infiniti
6 – Audi
7 – Jaguar
8 – Land Rover
9 – Mini
10 – Acura
http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006100
I'm sure GM is working very hard on improving quality, and digging out of the hole they've dug for themselves in the perception game. Hyundai is in a similar boat.
Toyota can't win every award. I think there's 10 win rule still in effect!
Too little, too late for me. It only goes to show when GM gets it's priorities right, they can do anything.
Except make a Lexus.
DrFill
10 companies score between 803-832. BMW and Porsche have earned a little distance.
Toyota and Chrysler are well below where they should be. Chrysler especially disappointing. :sick:
Suzuki Aerio kicking tail and taking names, in IQS and APEAL! Good job! Still don't like the car, doh.
Rav4 and IS were dominant, as I expected. :shades:
Nissans very strong. I LOVE the Muranos look, but HATE the amber interior (like the Maxima).
DrFill
I guess, if "getting your priorities right" means using mostly Reagan era parts in the GP. Unlike many of the other brands, GM's quality levels are all over the map, even among various Pontiac models.