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PS Again, no way GT will have 12000 RPM V10 and no way this car will weight 2600lbs; just my opinion.
If you mean soft and blend is better, you might just have something there. In 1990s Toyota and Honda were on the top of the world with the best products available. Today, they do not produce anything to brag about, so as far as I’m concerned Toyota changed for worse. They do make a lot of money, though.
Lexus is all of 16 years old, is very profitable and is a part of a juggernaut that can build any car it wants to. Do you really think their strategy is as cut and dry as your post after only 16 years of life and having access to pockets that are far deeper than anyone elses. Did you ever hear of a LT strategic plan that evolves over time? They are just starting to branch out.
And the reason for making so much money is that they are better than ever and they make cars that more and more people buy and repeat buy every year. Buying is the ultimate bragging.
Retraction needed; meant to say SL55. And you're once again downgrading the brilliant engine technology that American engines have used for over 100 years: Pushrods. The engines are so staid yet C6-R and Viper GTS-R will shred the European comp to a pulp, the C6 winning countless accolades. Japanese comp? We're still waiting.....
“I wouldn't bet against them.”
I’m not betting against them and yes they can do anything they want. The problem is they really don’t want to. Toyota sport is flash in the pan. Where is the Supra, Celica? Where is the MR2, another great little car? And don’t tell me they had good runs. Where are the successors to these cars?
They don’t stick with a plan and I expect the Lexus GT will be no different. They fall back on snoozers. With their resources they can perpetuate sport models even if they are not as profitable. But they choose not to because sport just isn’t in their blood. There’s no real commitment to it. Toyota/Lexus sport is like miniature golf.
Does someone looking to spend $150k on a real sports car want to buy from a company with that type of heritage? I even think most LS owners looking to spend that kind of money on a sports car would choose a Porsche or SL over the Lexus GT.
Japanese comp? We're still waiting.....
Amen.
How about the Skyline GT-R?
"The GT-R's success in motor racing was formidable, particularly in the annual race at the Mount Panorama circuit in Bathurst, Australia, where the champion three years running was a GT-R (despite receiving additional weight penalties in years two and three due to its unbeatable performance), and in the Japanese GT series where it has remained dominant up to the present day.
No other race victories by the GT-R could escape without controversies, at the 1990 Macau Grand Prix Guia touring car race, the factory backed R32 driven by Masahiro Hasemi led the race from the start to the finishing line which caused a wave of protests by the European entrants. The following year, the car was forced to carry a weight penalty of 140 kg very much to his frustration and had to settle for fourth place against the top three DTM specification race winning BMW M3 and Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16 Evolution II. The GT-R's success at Mount Panorama in 1991 and 1992, both by Jim Richards, led to a change in formula regulations, which came to exclude turbocharged and four-wheel-drive cars in subsequent years. It also led indirectly to a move to the Super Touring Car category in the JTCC and the creation of the JGTC grand touring car series in Japan, where GT-Rs can only compete in rear-wheel drive form - and still win."
The Skyline has dominated racing for 30+ years. It was so good that the Europeans had to whine "unfair! unfair!" and get the Skyline crippled so they could at least have a chance.
I'm very glad that the Japanese have finally gotten serious enough to send street versions of the race cars to the States, as with every German make. But to say it will change the face of the game is a little reaching....
Doesn't make much sense. You know 16 years ago people were saying pretty much the same thing about Lexus. You know it went kinda like this..."Toyota has no luxury heritage, who's gonna buy a $40K luxury Toyota?". Boy, look what happened with those types of statements.
I'm not saying a Lexus $150K Sports Car will be successful. ONly time and sales figures will tell whether it's a success or a failure. But I will tell you the heritage B.S. is lame for one, and second Lexus has already proved a great product can overcome a lack of "heritage".
The SC of the '90's had very little competition. And yes, it did place in C&D's 10 Best, but with the Lincoln Mark and Caddy Eldo as your main competition, there was little to cry over. And the current SC is, well, bluntly a dissappointment in style and handling, all of the things cars in this class are suppose to possess, hence it's lack of public attraction.
The SC would have never made it to top 10 had a Mark or Eldo been it's main competition, hence the SC300 5-speed manual was the only model that was a 10-best. If you think the SC was a competitor to the Eldo or Mark you truly shouldn't be talking in this forum.''
Just my two pennies. Continue with your exciting two pennies.
True. But Lexus also came to the table with a 32-valve V8 motor that was pretty quiet, refined, and powerful (for its time). Add the price discount, the history behind building the LS and you'll understand its success factor. So what if Lexus tries another go at a sporting car with this GT car, and comes to the table with everything else a 911 Turbo or SL55 has but a higher revving, torquey V10 motor, that will do 200mph with some aplomb. Maybe no one will mistake a Lexus for a Ferrari or Porsche, but Lexus sure bets even if they sell a pittance, a sporty Lexus GT sports car, with an F-1 sounding motor, and the grunt to boot will give some street cred to Lexus cars.... Besides, the point Len is making is that Lexus has the cash to do anything they want, and the GT is one such car.... Just for the heck of it... Anything wrong with that ?
M
Consider this. Maserati's "heritage" when they came back to the states was makers of Chrysler powered pieces of total garbage. It couldn't have been much worse, and yet the Coupe and Spyder did well in their initial year. I think if the Lexus GT turns out to be a great car, people will give it a chance as with Maserati, regardless of what the Lexus heritage may be.
M
About this Lexus sports car, I too think that Lexus will have to throw out their traditional rule book to matter in the league with Ferrari, Porsche etc. That said I don't think they're testing this thing on the "Ring" for nothing. I think it will be a real sports car, not a GT car like a SL or 6-Series.
This about Lexus making something "exciting" right now in 2006 is hilarious. Nothing but trucks, sedans and convertible that drives like a sedan. This would seem exciting for those who don't know what "excitement" is. That said, I'd pick the IS350 as their most "exciting" car. It was a lot of fun at the Taste of Lexus.
M
Yeah, the IS350 is definitely the best of the current lot. It's a good car, and rocket fast in a straight line, but just ok in the corners. They need to send it to somebody like Lotus, and have them spec out a proper sport-tuned suspension. Plenty of companies send their cars to Lotus to get them to handle properly, there's no shame in it.
Funny how MB fans brag about all the handling and performance prowress of their brand, yet they need Dr Z to market and sell these cars for them.... Hah ! Do people not appreciate a good marque for what it is - overpriced!!!
But on a serious note, I agree with you Merc1 that Lexus really could use a better handling/sporty GS. I think the IS is close already, they'd need to remove the VDIM nanny and put a stick in the IS350. For the '07 GS350, it should come with a 6MT and no VDIM, that would be ideal. Then bring in an IS500/6MT as an M/S/AMG fighter, after the GT car is released, say MY2009, to buttress Lexus' budding sporting interests... A company makes incremental changes along the way as they build a long and viable business. Lexus/Toyota didn't get to the top of the heap by being stupid.... Give them time and watch what they do, and we'll see what direction they go from here.
I completely agree. But the Toyota Lawyers aren't going to ever let that happen. The same with MB, with both systems to never shut completely off. A 6-speed stick would definetely run with a 5-Series, and a more sporting suspension woulf raise it's seriousness very high.
And the previous IS, I'm not going to even entertain that as if you think that car was superior to the 3, G35, A4, and even TL, then there is something definetely not correct with the way we're discussing things and maybe you could consider visiting another forum....
I don't know, maybe both!? My daughter and son in law are expecting and her S4 Cab and his Porsche 911 Turbo ain't gonna cut it. So maybe for a present, I may give them the W-12 since it has proved to be extremely reliable. That opens the door for the S8(wife) and S65(all me). :P
That'll never happen on the GS. It's never had a manual gearbox, and it never will. Some sort of SMG is a remote possibility, but it will never be a true three pedal car. I'll eat my hat if Lexus gives the GS a 6MT. There are rumors that Lexus will turn the song and dance you currently have to do to get VDIM to go away into an actual VDIM off button, but I dont think anything has been confirmed.
What I'd like to see is the IS350 mated with AWD.
very funny indeed !.... Yes, LG, you do have a gift of words...
And I'll eat my hat as well if the GS ever gets a true 3-pedal MT, that's why I said "it would be ideal"... I didn't say it will happen anytime soon
AWD on the 350 would just be way too much weight to drag around. Improve the balance on the car to a 49.5/50.5 weight distribution, give it a stick, a kill switch for the nanny, and stiffen its suspenders a tad (bilstein/tein coilovers, a brace, etc) and it'll stump on an e90 330i...
AND pls Lexus, bring a vert/coupe IS350 as well as an IS500/6MT... in 2 years tops...
More on the Lexus subject. I read on a Tokyo site where the upcoming LS may offer a true Sport option, as in 750/60i Sport and Audi A8 Sport Pkg. with a 20" wheel/tire option and 4 position electronic air suspension, much like Audi's 4-way adjustable air/pneumatic suspension.
I surely hope this is true as the upcoming LS is hugely awaited. There is even talk that the 600H may have the Sport pkg. as standard. But very unlikely to be our standard offering on either model, much like how the European makes do.
The future gets so bright.....
I gotta wear :shades:
Someday, the IS350 will have a stick, and the world will be better place, no doubt.
DrFill
The Tokyo CarMag of May 2006 listed the 600hL with massive 19" rims, and upgrading that to 20" + AWD + HSD = lots of weight... How would this car handle all that weight ? At projected 430HP, that may not be cutting it, IMO. But with all these good news around the corner for Lexus, do you suppose that this is deja vu all over again ??
I'm sure they could keep the weight gain down to a reasonable 150lbs or so. 0-60 might be up to 5.5 seconds, oh, the horror. The added grip would be worth it. A few years ago, Top Gear tested a RS6 against an E55 in the wet. The E was nearly uncontrollable, while the RS6, despite the all wrong weight distribution, stayed glued to the track and smoked the RWD E.
I could have sworn that I read here somewhere that Porsche was involved in the fine tuning of the handling of the GS or IS????
M
You're right about Toyota/Lexus not getting where they are by being stupid, but that same straight laced practice is what keeps them out of the hunt with enthusiasts. Their business side won't allow them to put a stick shift in a car like a GS350 and apparently the IS350 because the sales (think business) would be so few. This is where European companies are willing to take the risk and cater to the enthusiasts. Mercedes doesn't sell many C230 or C350 manuals, but I have seen them at the dealer before. If Lexus/Toyota would let their hair down some they'd gain some traction with the Eurocarfans. Toyota and Lexus don't have a single sporty 2-door car worth mentioning, the Scion TC and Lexus SC430 don't cut it when they've built something like a Supra in the past. I'd buy a Toyota Supra in a minute if they built one for the sole purpose of being a 350Z killer.
M
M
Lawyers and bean counters... What will the world be without them ?
Aw c’mon. It’s just not true and the statement is very un-Lexusguy. Surely you are not groping to reduce Maserati heritage to Chrysler’s TC by Maserati, an ephemeral, trivial relationship that isn’t even worth mentioning.
Even though Maserati is one of automotive history’s orphans, it is a lust marque in the ilk of Sophia Loren thanks to the Italian DNA. In addition, the current Masers came to the states courtesy of Ferrari.
Lastly, how many dreams have you had of Soph I mean owning a Quattroporte?
;-)
:P
I didn't say that's what Maserati always was. I've defended Maserati on this board before. My point was that people didn't consider the Bi-turbo and the QP of the '80s and then skip Maserati's comeback cars because of how bad they were.
Reminds me of a BMW ad in the early 1980s with the following slogan:
A pedigree car is defined by the fancy ornament on its hood , but a BMW is defined by what is under its hood . (unfortunately I cant recall the exact words of the ad)
Interestingly BMW heritage in the USA begins not with a HELM or a luxury performance vehicle but with a VW Bug slayer called the BMW 600:
Despite such a heritage I chose to buy a BMW 530xi Touring anyways. So much for heritage!
I think BMW's true heritage today begins with the M1. Despite all of its compromises and flaws, it started the M division and gave the world the M3 and M5. BMW before that was always second-fiddle to Mercedes.
In other words based on your timeline BMW's true heritage is not much older than the heritage of Lexus or Infiniti.
So now you may ask what exactly is my point? My point is heritage in itself is quite meaningless. In fact Lincoln and Cadillac have far stronger heritages than both BMW or Lexus but that fact in itself will not sway many to buy a Cadillac or Lincoln instead.
There was a blurb in an auto mags news section a few years ago about the GS and Porsche. I posted that so maybe that is your reference. Don't know if there was any truth to it or if the mag even had good data. That was the only time and place I saw that so no confirms ever existed.