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Comments
Most definately.
If the current ES is now better than the previous LS, and comes in at $45K, and if it offers the level of luxury that Lexus buyers crave, then it sounds like a bargain.
Especially since most Lexus buyers don't care about performance, and mostly just want a super-comfy reliable luxo-car.
That should make the ES a no-brainer for lots of Lexus buyers, IMO.
Those Lexus buyers wanting the "status and prestige" (LOL) of an LS will have to fork over the extra $30K+.
TagMan
Or are you claiming Forbes is wrong?
Or are you mixing up a Vision value survey with a Satisfaction survey? Apparently that seems to be the likeliest case since your results contradict the Forbes results. If you wish to discuss this further then enlighten me with the reason for this contradiction.
Otherwise discussing this to the point of ad nauseum is a waste of time? Dont you think?
you are correct I do differ with your views about owning BMWs for the long term. I've owned BMWs way beyond warranty--my last BMW323i had been very reliable for almost 8 years of ownership. I sold my 323i to my niece who is currently in Stanford and she claims my 323i is still a flawless car. I have relatives, friends and acquantances who've owned BMWs longer than I have without even hearing a whimper from them.
So yes I do disagree with you. If our 530xi and 335i turns out to be unreliable junk after warranty I can assure you there will be one more Lexus forum member named LexusDewey who will be boasting about the wonders and marvels of the new world wonder called the LS.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But aren't these ads in black & white?
Seems the MDX and RDX are racing down the same path in styling. But I'm in no hurry to get thur. :sick:
I like the MDX commercial concept, doh. If it had a sexier vehicle, or was in color.......
DrFill
And you and I both know they gladly will because of the "entry-level" stigma of the ES 350 which is aggrevated by Lexus' refusal to make a much-needed sharp differentiation between the design of the ES and the Camry. It's about time that the ES has a distinctive look of its own, even if it has to cost a few more large. The outside screams Camry. The inside, luxurious Lexus.
Too bad.
What makes me laugh is the way the "status and prestige " of the Mercedes has been scoffed at by many a Lexus buyer as though it has no value or significance, yet there are Lexus buyers that wouldn't be caught dead in the ES, and they buy the LS for exactly that "status" within the brand . . . and further, after doing so, claim that they didn't buy the Mercedes S-Class because they don't care about status. Sheesh! . . . Gimmee a break!
Also, if the ES were made much nicer, it would seriously cannabalize the upper tier sales!
Check this out . . . flip the Lexus ES rear tail lights 180 degrees (upside down) and then see how they so closely resemble the Camry's!!!!!
TagMan
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Duh, the same can be said about just about EVERY luxury brand. If the E-class provides basically the same luxury as the LS for half the price, the same can be said of the C-class vs. the S-class. You don't realize the LS offers much more features just like the S-class offers much more features over the ES and C-class respectively. Or how about a A4 vs. a A8, or a 3-series vs. a 7-series. This is the king of the lamest comparisons yet!
Yeah okay. time for some glasses!
Uh..another good one. First and foremost, the ES is already a VERY nice car. I don't know what more you can expect for a $40K luxury car. If you made it any nicer it would be a LS for the price of a LS. Features/luxury come at a added cost.
Also, if you made a 3-series nicer, it would cannabalize the upper tier sales.
And if you made a C-class nicer, it would cannabalize the upper tier sales.
Get the picture?
I believe you would be more comfortable being known as Infiniti45Dewey if your doomsday scenario ever takes place. I would rather err on the side of caution and turn the BMWs over every several years.
It won't be so easy on August 1, 2008. Tears will be shed for my wonderful 545. I really found out how good it can get and I urge everybody who hasn't experienced this kind of exhilaration to go to their local BMW dealer and test drive a 550i.
If I concentrate on the annoying iDrive as I bring it back, I just might be able to tear myself away.
I try and drive whatever is out there between $35k-$75k looking for that vehicle which can replace a BMW.
Hasn't happened and probably will never happen, but I do enjoy test-driving whatever I can in that price range.
As I age, I may get more into the comfort thing, so checking out Lexus models now isn't such a bad thing.
I find your description of the Lexus product line and their potential for sales increases quite interesting.
But let us forget sales and focus on the cars themselves.
Based on some of your past posts you do sound like an enthusiast that likes sticks,a tight chassis and high performance.
So my question to you is why do you like Lexus cars so much?
Would you pick a IS350 over a manual BMW335i or new G35?
Would you pick a ES350 over a fun driving manual Audi 2.0T Quattro?
Would you pick a GS350 over a BMW530i or Infiniti M35?
Would you pick a LS460L above a MB S550?
Would you really pick a SC over a BMW 650 or a new MB CL?
Now Dr. Fill if you can answer all my questions as honestly as possible you may begin to discover your Lexus arguments have as many holes as a slice of Swiss Cheese.
If I wanted Lexus comfort and pampering and the horses' mouth is telling me the ES 350 is better in every way than the flagship LS was in 1990, I would be at my Lexus dealer tomorrow morning for a test drive.
For value and excellence, this is a no-brainer.
From some of the postings I have seen, people want the basic LS because they can't or won't spend $75k MSRP for the new LS.
IMO, if your strategy is to get the basic LS, it's not worth it-the car "comes alive" with the pricey options.
Instead, I would order the ES 350 fully loaded for between $45-50k MSRP. You will feel like a king with all the gizmos you could ever dream of.
Well, it took quite a long while, but you finally got the point!
I was starting to get concerned about you! Are you usually this slow?
And that point has been simply that the ES is quite a bargain as compared to the LS.
Particularly for a Lexus buyer, who is generally willing to give up on costly performance features.
So, instead of those costly performance features, and also due to the relationship to the Camry, what ends up is a vehicle that can offer a generous abundance of luxury for a modest price.
TagMan
Hasn't happened and probably will never happen, but I do enjoy test-driving whatever I can in that price range.
But seriously I recently made a vow that my next car will be a non-BMW since I like change and novelty. But unfortunately I made a similar vow a few years ago and ended up buying two BMWs this year. Well at least I will have another six years to break my vow again when I search for a new car :sick:
My friend, a LOT will happen in that amount of time. These coming years will offer more changes than in the entire history of the automobile! Being a spectator will be very good!
TagMan
You don't have to be a design genius to see the rear resemblances among the Camry, Avalon ES and LS.
IMO,Lexus must break away once and for all from all this obvious Toyota-sharing and come up with their own unique innovative designs, drive trains, etc;
No Lexus should even remotely resemble a Toyota.
Sure, the vehicles will cost more, but when people start seeing that Lexus is independent and not just an obvious extension of Toyota, the Lexus brand will earn itself more respect and people would be willing to pay a bit more.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
A 2013 fuel cell Honda?
An 2013 electircal Prius?
A 2013 Electronic Chauffeur-Shiatsu Massager Lexus LS750 with no steering wheel
A 2013 450HP gas guzzling BMW performance sedan?
Hmmm, my vow is already beginning to look vulnerable.
At the beginning of 2005, I drove the GS300, GS430, M35, and M45.
I liked the GS300 best of that bunch, only it tended to lurch forward with the slightest touch of the gas pedal, its cabin was cramped and the trunk bordered on laughable.
I next tried the 330i and the 545i and I knew I had to have the 545i.
I always search for a BMW beater, but have not found it in my price range.
A rhetorical post . . . and no logic at all!
Read my post! I said that the ES gets extra luxury by giving up costly performance attributes because Lexus buyers don't care about those things.
So, your idea of a 5-Series buyer giving up on performance is . . . well . . . pure baloney. To say it kindly, it just ain't gonna happen.
Just ask any 5-Series owner. Performance, not luxo, is what it's about.
TagMan
;-)
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Ever since I posted that infamous BusinessWeek article . . . the best brand is . . . BMW?
TagMan
TagMan
Lexus has simply moved up market, significantly.
They will jointly share the BlueTec diesel technology, and the good news is that the first wave will hit in just one more model year. Ya' gotta' just love this.
Here's the scoop:
German automakers will offer advanced diesel engines
TagMan
The phrase "costly performance attributes" has to be well-qualified. MacPhearson Struts as used by BMW is decidedly low-cost when compared to double wishbone suspensions used on some of the competitors; GM invented MacPhearson Struts decades ago as a cost saving measure. Inline-6 is once again cheaper to produce than V6, both in terms of casting the block and the manufacturing of one head instead of two.
What may make performance attributes more costly is in scale of manufactur: fewer people are willing to put up with the hard riding often inevitable with performance tuning . . . that results in the parts being made in smaller number of copies, and the design itself with smaller market potential . . . therefore may benefit less from economy of scale compared to a more popular design spec, even if the more popular design spec uses better material. That's part of the reason why BMW 3 series has become softer and more main stream in the last four generations.
So with that in mind...Better late than never. A diesel hybrid is the greatest opportunity for a renewable resource fuel transition vehicle.(Transition-to get us to the next mobile fuel resource) As we ALL KNOW internal combustion is a no go for the long term, but for the next ten years... Hey we can grow our own fuel(biodiesel)and burn less of it(in a hybrid)and produce anywhere from 1/4 to 1/10th the greenhouse gases of gasoline engines. And if we don't want to grow it, it can be grown almost anywhere, creating a competative supply that is always available. That sounds like real solution to me. Check it.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/28/bloomberg/sxhonda.php
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/09/honda_previews_.html
Of course it's a foreign corp that is moving on this first.
Puleeeeez stop voting your religion or your own selfish ends and start voting your love for: your fellow man, your community, your country, and of course your planet. This is about EVERYONE not just you or just your friends or your football team. The politicians don't want us to find common ground they want us to be trivially divided so they can serve their masters(corporations;national & international)and keep giving themselves pay raises, while voting down increases in minimum wage. Working class America can vote people into office that represent us not our corporations or religions. Or don't and keep taking it(no matter who you are except the top 1/10% income bracket).
You are describing various components, but have said nothing of the initial design and engineering costs that would be also be necessary. Besides, the same types of components can vary widely as to their capabilities and costs. Shocks are a classic and simple example of this.
You have also indicated that fewer people are willing to put up with a harder ride. A better handling dynamic does not necessarily have to be a harder ride, although a somewhat stiffer suspension is more typical with performance, I'll grant you that. But, being able to switch driving modes also adds cost, as you should know.
There ain't no free ride, as the saying goes . . . but it certainly costs less, and definately takes less engineering and know-how to put in soft leather seats and a good stereo than it does to build good performance attributes.
TagMan
The GS450h is fast, and it is efficient, but it doesn't seem to have anymore tricks up it's sleeve, and it certainly isn't dynamic like M45 and 550i.
True, but for all the extra complexity to net a 3 mpg gain over more the more powerful E550 and 550i, the GS450h doesn't make its case. Add to that humpback styling (subjective I know), a pinched trunk and back seat and poof the GS doesn't do nearly the competitive job the LS does against its rivals. A bigger IS won't do the trick either, as the IS doesn't have anything on the 3-Series for 07'.
The IS is nothing short of a success, with some small caveats. The nits are VDIM (fixed), rear seat room (a deal breaker for many, I'm sure), and the manual 350 issue, which doesn't seem to be an issue for cars like G35 and 330/335i. I think a lot of marques would like to call an IS their own.
Commercial success yes, but all those other things it was supposed to do to the 3-Series it hasn't done. The VDIM having an off switch is only one problem. The other is the chassis. It still doesn't have the control and according to some the ride of a 3-Series, considering how well the 3 handles. Next up is that it really is cramped back there and yes not having a manual is a definitely oversight when MB offers one!
The SC is another very successful car for Lexus, but it should evolve into something more dynamic and, interactive. And yes, I still find the car attractive, to this day, inside and out. But it is not SL. But it doesn't need to be.
You've always had a hard time coming clean about this car. The SC430 isn't an SL, and it isn't a CLK550 either. Both of them smoke the car at everything that matters to car people, not consumer reports fanatics. The car is a commercial success, but a complete dullard otherwise.
Regarding what seem to be issues with my posts regarding sales, exclusivity, and price, Lexus goes as the LS goes.
That you can't have them all. Sales kill exclusivity.
It WILL sell more than the S-Class next year. As it should.
Seeing as it still starts out in the 60's compared to the 80's for an S-Class you're right it should.
M
Oh no Max I have never, ever posted anything as ridiculous as we've seen posted here from some of our departed Lexus fans. Never. When a new Mercedes/BMW/Audi comes on the scene the joy is spread around among fans and Lexus is hardly ever, if at all mentioned in the same context as Mercedes is when a new Lexus comes out. Totally wrong on that one Max. I mean really, I've read here that that the S600 isn't a luxury car! This was done to make a ridiculous point about Lexus' sales.
The LS460 is on the Lexus website, it says the cheapest one I can get in my area is $80K, $71K for a base LS460L plus $9K for the first option package available.
Interesting isn't it? I wonder if some potential Lexus buyers will suffer sticker shock from this? However the S still starts at 86K and there aren't any on the lot for that price. You're right though, Lexus seems to not see undercutting BMW and Audi in price a priority anymore.
Ultimately, the 1st few month's of LS460 sales will tell if people are going to fork over $80K for a LS460. I think the majority of LS460 sales will be the L version much like S-class sales used to be dominated by the longer versions when they used to make a short and long wheelbased version. The LS definately is moving closer to S-class territory, but IS almost identically priced to the BMW 745.
I agree.
I'm sorry, 30K is not exclusive and 40K is definately not exclusive. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but cars from Mercedes, BMW, Lexus just aren't exclusive by any means!
Well for one I didn't say that 30K is exclusive, I said it was more exclusive than 40K. In general a Mercedes or BMW isn't exclusive anymore, but the big difference between Mercedes/BMW and Lexus is that MB/BMW still has a lot of exclusive models relative to their all the same Lexi. Lexus doesn't have you can't spot on a typical drive to work.
M
Bingo! Oh you ain't seen nothing until you mention Acura and Lexus in the same sentence. Then you'll get a load about the prestige of Lexus.
If you go back some posts here you'll see that Lexus fans flip flop back on forth on sales, prestige, comparision tests, styling or anything else that can't be applied favorably to every Lexus model. Whichever criteria a Lexus does't excel in, that criteria all of sudden becomes matterless. Drfill will tout wining comparos about the LS all day long as proof of its superiority yet he'd like you to forget that the SC430 has been nothing but a loser in every comparo it has ever been in.
M
I know he'd take a LS460L over anything including an S550, but the others I'd have to see what he says.
Of course Lexus makes nothing to compete with a manual 335i or the MB CL and SL so....
M
No Lexus should even remotely resemble a Toyota.
Sure, the vehicles will cost more, but when people start seeing that Lexus is independent and not just an obvious extension of Toyota, the Lexus brand will earn itself more respect and people would be willing to pay a bit more
You see anyone having a problem buying Lexus'? Is Lexus having a problem selling vehicles? Did Lexus lose a sales title or something?
Did Lexus become Audi all of the sudden? :confuse:
DrFill
The SC is a success for Lexus, but I, nor has anyone, called it a thrill ride. It is a two-door LS, which is pretty good, no?
Considering it's the first vehicle of it's kind from Lexus, it's a very solid start. Mercedes has only been making SLs for 40-50 years. And I eagerly await the Second Act.
I expect a much bolder formula from this car in 2008.
Sales and comparisons are as good a way as any to judge a car, does anyone disagree?
Would I take an LS over an S550. Sure! Does that mean there is anything wrong with the S550? No. But having seen both cars in person, the LS is noticably better looking, is a better value, and compares very nicely with an S-Class, regardless of price, from where I sit.
But the S is hot right now! And for good reason. Next year should be very interesting, doh.
Time will reveal.
DrFill
Well as a 2-door LS I guess it does make a case, but even at that goal some say it doesn't measure up. Consumer reports no less!! Maybe Lexus shouldn't supply one when the mags ask for one for a comparo?
Truthfully I've always found the SC430 to be an interesting car. I even got to drive it recently!
Sales and comparisons are as good a way as any to judge a car, does anyone disagree?
True. Agreed, but why does one weigh more heavily than the other to suite whichever Lexus is being talked about? You flipped flopped continuously on these two things about the SC430 a while back, saying one wasn't as important as the other, yet with the LS both sales and comparos are equally important.
Then you have.....
Lexus fans that just tout sales as the sole indicator of superiority, the end all, yet when a Lexus doesn't outsell the German competition and doesn't win in comparos all of sudden neither sales dominance or comparos wins are important as long as the car is selling period. I mean that is way too much squirming around on the very sticking points that most Lexus fans bring to the table.
I won't even go into styling, handling an all the other things cars can be judged on because up until Lexus starting actually trying to style their cars or make them feel like you're actually driving them, these things weren't important either. Now Lexus want to chase down BMW? Someone isn't reading from the same script.
M
They are all drooling for one. Now, to take this a step further, if I understand most State laws you can't legally have an "open container" of alcohol inside the vehicle. This means that you could pay the $80K to get the massage, have absolutely no drink, and, if so equipped, watch that little 9" DVD monitor.
So, I've realized that for less than $80K, there are many cars that would be a lot more fun to drive and with the extra money, folks could order a couple of those massage chairs from the Sharper Image, and a 60" plasma TV.
That way they can get the shiatsu massage, have a cocktail, watch the 60" plasma instead of the 9", and also know that there is a new car in the garage that is more fun to drive than an LS460L.
Maybe all this sounds silly to you . . . but how much is that chair really worth when, if seated in it, you can't even drive the darned car anyway?!
So, if you are busy in the massage chair, does that mean the park-asist is for the chauffeur? How much will his salary cost a month? And if you have to pay him to drive, how come he doesn't even have the skills to park?
Y'know, the more I think about it . . . I'll just put a new massage chair in my office . . . facing a new 60" plasma tv . . . and count the money left over.
TagMan
Something wrong with Lexus designing its vehicles so they don't resemble Toyotas?
Not worth paying a few large more for?
Well, Mercedes have never been comparison winners, save for the SL. I don't think Mercedes cares a great deal.
The same is probably true for Lexus. You don't want to be a bottom-feeder, in either case. But what would you rather be good at? I'm sure they don't build cars to please journalists.
The M35/45 has put a nice string together, and can't outsell the beleaugered GS!
DrFill
The Camry and ES are both quite the lookers now!
DrFill
The total design and engineering budget for a new generation of 3 series is probably smaller than that of a new generation of Civic (which is 4 to 8 billion dollars nowadays). That's part of the reason why bugs are more likely to have been engineered out in the more main stream cars like Civic. Economy of scale is still incredibly important in the auto business.
being able to switch driving modes also adds cost, as you should know.
I don't think being able to switch driving modes is an essential characteristic of any of the marques. It's one of the more recent gimmicks.
it certainly costs less, and definately takes less engineering and know-how to put in soft leather seats and a good stereo than it does to build good performance attributes.
Not necessarily. Soft leather seats directly increase per unit cost. Accoustic engineering for a vehicle cabin is non-trivial; BMW has been wrestling with that issue for over two decades.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
As much as I like hybrids and believe eventually electric cars will prevail due to local pollution plus NVH/maintenance reasons, I have to wonder from time to time how much of the "voting for the planet" is just a new form of religion . . . repent, for the judgement day is nigh ;-)
LOL, imagine the money I could of saved by buying a more reliable Civic versus a BMW. Darned if only I knew :sick:
Not necessarily. Soft leather seats directly increase per unit cost. Accoustic engineering for a vehicle cabin is non-trivial; BMW has been wrestling with that issue for over two decades.
Was BMW sweating and struggling these past few decades with their Acousitic and soft leather engineering efforts. Imagine that? Thanks for this great revelation :P
I hope the next great space ship in our future will have good leather seats. I heard the one reason we are stuck with the Space Shuttle is because of leather seat development problems