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For MOI?
I love the subtle and sleek nature of this vehicle, as opposed to the Vegas style bells and whistles approach of "some" cars.
Also, the AMG appearance is right at home with this car.
Heck, OK, I'll just say it . . . the car is freakin' gorgeous.
This is how I understand this car's powerplant will be:
A bi-turbo 5.5-liter, 36-valve V12 cranking out 517 horsepower at 5,000 rpm and 612 lb.-ft. of torque from 1,900 to 3,500 rpm.
I guess Southern Pacific Railroad can replace their locomotives and start using these . . . wow.
Thanks.
TagMan
You're kidding right? The A6 is the best-selling luxury car in the world, hands down, so it only makes perfect since to due the CLS thing, just as it has bolstered the E-Class.
Platform-making is extrordinarily pricey. Figure 10bil for the new M/GL/R-Class SUV's. And that is why platform sharing is of the essence.
So that's why Audi bothers.
Seriously tho, this car is absolutely stunning, particularly in this color hue.
The AMG pack really dresses it up. And that's why I got it on my S600, which incidentally, arrives Monday.
Yeah, notice my rare minimum posting the last couple of days?
The AMG pack really dresses it up. And that's why I got it on my S600, which incidentally, arrives Monday.
Monday should be a good day for you, then. Good luck.
Sorry, I don't remember your S600 color combo, if you mentioned it. What flavor?
TagMan
It also has the S63/65 front/rear apron and side sills. Beautiful Indeed.
The XJR/Super V8/Portfolio offers great driving fun and smooth operation, but in terms of what drives "better than", the Cats are out-paced by the S63, 760i, and S8.
But the Jags do offer more than just driving fun. The interior decor has stayed true to Jaguar's "classic, yet functional" mantra. The XJ and XK are the only Jag's of interest to me as they, (1) don't share platforms with any car, and (2) that British character still rings true in these cars, for the good this go around.
But it's the XK that's got me in a trance. This car make some people do a double take at the SL as it is just that good. The interior quality/assembly/materials are of the best in this class. And altho 300hp ain't squat when you've got a $35k IS350 with 306, it just drives with great poise and feedback.
I'm waiting to drive the XKR. Some of my British pals tell me this car may not have that SL55 power, but it will out-hustle it in a curve. And that may not be to hard to believe.
It makes sense for engine lineup for Panamera is the same as Cayenne, minus V6. Porsche can still borrow VW V12. Panamera better be a better sports sedan than Cayenne a SUV. I was surprised as hell Cayenne Turbo is not as fast as similar-power Cherokee SRT8 in R&T comparo, which is basically a truck. And only a little faster than less powerful as X5 4.8 and FX45. All that weight is to blame, I think Panamera will be more George Foreman at 25, not at 50.
Have you seen the photos of new S type, out in 08? Better looking that any current competitor, IMO. I'm surprised the early rumors are V6 will be 3.0. Even MKX has the new 3.5!
But it's the XK that's got me in a trance. This car make some people do a double take at the SL as it is just that good. The interior quality/assembly/materials are of the best in this class. And altho 300hp ain't squat when you've got a $35k IS350 with 306, it just drives with great poise and feedback.
I ALWAYS like a good post about Jag (XJ & XK).
The XJ and XK are the only true current Jags, IMO.
That 300 HP V8 engine is much more responsive with lots of grunt than many would ever expect, and yet it is silky smooth, delivering ridiculously good fuel economy of about 27 HWY MPG.
The Vanden Plas or Portfolio are the only ways to go with an XJ, IMO. But the Vanden Plas is a bargain, IMO . . . and the new XK is a steal.
BTW, totally different subject . . . I have heard that the Porsche 911 will undergo a TOTAL change within two years. I imagine this is due to the performance encroachment of the Cayman. What do you know about any of this?
TagMan
My Jag dealer invited me to stop in for a sneak preview of the XKR. Its absolutely gorgeous. That bright silver mesh grille and front air dam completely transform the front of the car, and solve the pugnose issue. Unfortunately I wasn't allowed to drive it, it was one of the only examples in the country and was only going to be there a day or two before moving on to the next dealership.
I can definitely see a new XKR in my future. I've driven the new XK8, and while the interior is a massive improvement in both design and comfort now that the last bits of XJS are finally banished from the car, the handling and power are not that much different than what I've got now. I want my new cat with claws
It will be interesting to see what happens with the XKR-R. I dont think Jag has either confirmed or denied that they will do it. One issue is that it would be a direct competitor to the V8 Vantage... with a lot more horsepower than the Aston.
I don't think its an engineering issue, and its obviously not a money problem. Joining two of the new 3.0L engines for a 6.0L V12 shouldn't be too difficult. I just don't think Toyota is interested in doing it. No one buys a V12 luxury sedan because they need it. Having a V12 is all about prestige, and Lexus will find it very tough to compete with M-B and BMW at that level, V12 or no. The traditional Lexus value approach also won't work. Value isn't something that matters to the $100K+ crowd, or they would buy the V8 versions.
I think the best approach Lexus can use to try and get a toe-hold in the ultra high end market is the one they are using, the 600hL. They can't just have a "me too" V12, they need to have something truly different than what the Germans offer in order to steal any buyers away.
I'm surprised the early rumors are V6 will be 3.0. Even MKX has the new 3.5!
The new S-type's engine is a 3.2L inline six, borrowed from Volvo. After the Jaguar work over, I would expect 260hp or so.
In the LR2 it is doing about 234 hp so 260 something sounds right to me for the S-Type.
Part of my fantasy car garage is a Super V8 Jaguar and a Mark III Range Rover HSE with luxury interior. Those would be my two long trip cars. The Jaguar for good weather conditions and the Range Rover for bad weather.
They bess have at least 4 LS460/L thur to drive. Why wait? I doubt there will be more than 1 S550/750i.
DrFill
Then he just may experience the 0-60mph time that Lexus claims, but two professional reviewers couldn't replicate.
I don't really expect to be blown away by how it drives. I do expect to come away with more respect for Lexus on how they do Luxury. If I was shopping Maybachs, I may just save the dough and grab the L with the executive seating package. I don't really have that kind of paperwork in case anyone was wondering
C&D's test car was clearly a pre-production sample, the brakes barely worked. Has Edmunds ever matched a manufacturer's rated 0-60, with any car?
So, when can we officially KNOW that the LS460 can or can't do what Lexus claims?
TagMan
The Mags haven't done one yet 'cus they are waiting for production models, not pre-production models, to test.
Considering the number of options most tested LS' will have, a 5.4 time is unlikely, since Manufacturer's times are from cars at curb weight, no options.
Remember, C&D tested the IS350 at 5.1, faster than Lexus claims! :surprise:
GS450h at 5.5 (5.2)
GX470 at 7.7 (8.0)
ES350 at 6.2! (6.8) (over 3600 lbs!)
In LS we trust!
BTW, did anyone else hear that the Next Toyota Tundra will have 380+ HP? This bodes well for future Lexus trucks.
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/10/26/5-7-liter-v8-in-toyota-tundra-will-produce-38- 1-horsepower/
DrFill
Earlier in the year, Toyota's Vice-President of NA Trucks said this was a move to instill no doubt that this engine will bring down even the mighty 5.7L HEMI. Ironically, they have the same displacement. But Dodge has something up there sleeve with the 6.1L 420hp HEMI that is going into the '07 Rams as top dog.
This engine also will in effect move the 4.7 to the middle of the engine availability. It also will replace the 4.7's in the LC/LX's eventually, along with a 6-speed tranny.
For one, they're working with Audi now as I type this with their new A4 and MLP platforms that will in effect give it a front-midship design for better performance and weight distribution.
Now from what I can take from this, the only thing I can see is they're finally going to take the 911 front-engined after many years of debate to do so.
That would give a bit better weight distribution and add some much needed weight over the front tires to alleviate that lifelessness feeling at high speeds due to hardly any weight over the front tires.
Kinda reminds me of Merc's fav MB, the 500E, which Porsche made into an iconic status. That car to this day is still unbelieveable, right along with it's still-ridiculous price tag.
The first E55 wasn't the car the 500E was, but these latest monsters will smoke it. Tho they still don't have the charisma or soul the 500E did.
It will be interesting to compare the Camry, Avalon, ES and LS designs for similarities and...uh... similarities. Hope the Toyotas aren't a mile away from the Lexus exhibit, but I guess that's what cameras are for.
Looking forward to sitting in the MB E-Class for the first time. Hope they have a BLUETEC, although I'm sure it would feel the same as sitting in the regular E.
The bluetec definitely isn't the fun one of the bunch, despite its enormous torque. The car sits higher and has smaller tires than the E350 sport for less rolling resistance.
Certainly that's one way to go, but I've got to differ with you on this one.
I'll predict a mid-engine position . . . similar to the Cayman. It's just a natural, IMO. The 911 may have to drop its rear jump seats for the sake of better pure performance.
Of course it will be necessary to distinguish and distance itself from the Cayman.
To accomplish that, I imagine that the future 911's HP will be significantly more than the Cayman would ever even hope to get, and that the styling will be a new major leap for a Porsche 911, and of course, well above the Cayman, inside and out.
Dropping the rear jump seats makes further sense to me, because the Panamera would then be the ticket for rear passengers.
It's surprising that there has not been more info leaked out about this.
I would expect very serious HP and slalom capabilities with a new potentially mid-engined 911.
Of course, you could be right and they go front-engine, but somehow I see the first true mid-engined 911 in my crystal ball, and at this point I'll take a big risk and go on record early here with my prediction.
ETA? Maybe model year 2009 or 2010.
TagMan
I think you're probably right. Porsche is supposed to compete with other front engined GTs like the 599GTB and DB9 with the Panamera based 928, which will have a front engine. The 911 is supposed to be the pure sports car, so it makes sense for it to have the engine in the middle.
This way, they still can achieve the Boxster's and Cayman's perfect 50/50 WD.
True, you will have to give up the rear seat, but if that's biggest penalty, then the "penalty in-law box" has to go. The 911 owners I know say that the occassional grocery bag is the only thing it sees anyway. And to boot, the car will in effect gain the other cars phenomenal combined 20+ cu.ft of combined space.
Tag, I figure we won't see a new 911 until about '10 or '11, as that's the average life span, altho the previous Boxster survived from '97 to '04, clearly a milestone in it's class, but it can do that because that car is second to none in it's class.
I would like to have gone again but registration is full and I threw out my badge. Did you go early? My time was at 12:30 but these times did not seem strictly adhered to. I think they were just trying to balance the attendance.
I just dont get it, the 450h makes no sense. .
Hmm, three question marks. Have I short circuited the logic of Spock? ;-) Notice I said I would CONSIDER buying it but need to test it further. The shortcomings have been well noted for some time now. This doesn’t lessen my intrigue with the technology and my short test drive fanned the flames of this intrigue. I haven’t driven the GS 350 and yes, I would like to. BTW, Automobile mag says the GS 450h is capable of a 4.6 0-60. Mistake? Probably. It felt fast but not that fast.
If you consider the etymology, that is the origins of the word, I think “brand” is the purest meaning, as opposed “make” or “manner in which it is constructed.” In my opinion Mercedes is a marque, less so the models such as the E-class and S-class. Each one of their models is heavily branded as a Mercedes and often referred to as a Mercedes in general. The model does not rise above the brand, they are subsumed within the brand. I would not refer to models such as the E-class, S-class, 5-series, A8, LS etc. as marques in the purest sense of the word.
There are however instances where I would refer to models as marques. Take the Corvette which I think qualifies as a marque. It does rise above the Chevrolet brand and you would rarely if ever refer to it as a Chevrolet. To illustrate this further, imagine giving a valet your ticket and he asks what kind of car you have. You would NEVER tell him Chevy if you are driving a Corvette, it just doesn’t make sense. Conversely, if you had an E500 you would probably identify it first as a Mercedes without even mentioning the model number. Other models I would qualify as marques are perhaps Maybach, Avanti, Skyline, maybe even Mustang.
Outside the automotive world I would say Coke and Pepsi are marques as well as Macintosh computers, but not the Acoustimass sound system because Bose is the marque. Surely there are many other examples but these just came to the top of my head. Perhaps my assessment is not entirely accurate but that’s my take.
Now, having said this, I agree with Lexusguy (and I think Merc) that the cars listed in the masthead of this thread are of distinct genre and deserve to be compared in a group as are Luxury Performance Sedans and Entry Level Luxury Performance Sedans. However, if this is to be strictly the case, this thread should have been named High End Luxury Sedans, not “Marques.”
Anyway, I think “Marques” as opposed to "Sedans" is a worthy topic and this place has succeeded in attracting us car yentas. As such I am glad to see that the rules have been “relaxed” somewhat around here. There was a time when we were required to stick with the models in the masthead. I always believed the cars within the marque should be considered as they apply to the high-end brand and I had argued this in the past only to have been sent to the Gulag Archipelago. Needless to say, the Berlin wall has crumbled in this thread and for this I am unquestionably happy thanks to the catharsis of Pat and Kirstie our recovering despots. (Oh for heaven’s sake I’m just kidding.)
;-)
TagMan
I understand that its an interesting car, it just seems to make far less practical sense than the RX400h (which doesn't make much sense to begin with), and on top of that, the hybrid premium is double that of the RX400h.
0-60 in four and a half seconds is AMG territory. There's absolutely no chance that it can match that. The GS350 with 303hp is good for 5.8 seconds or so. Even with the electric torque boost (although interestingly the GS450h has 267ft.lbs @ 4800rpm, vs. the 350's 274ft.lbs @ 3600rpm), a car that weighs 400lbs. more with just 36 more horsepower will not be able to shave more than a second off of that time. Most of the magazine tests seem to be slightly above the offical 5.2 seconds.
I firmly believe the GS350 is the best of the bunch by far. The steering is apparently electric in the 350 and not hydraulic as I thought, but without VGRS there's a decent amount of feedback. Its no M or 5 series, but for Lexus steering its pretty good.
Its the second lightest car in the class, beaten only by the 530i, and it feels fairly tossable and willing to play. No VDIM means the car doesn't go into panic\shutdown mode if you try to have some fun. The brakes are the good old fashioned kind, so there's none of the grabbiness of the electric brakes in the 430 and 450h.
If I was in the market for a midsize LPS, and the M35x did not exist, the GS350 AWD is what I would get.
On top of that it seems that many of you are obsessed with the LS460 (far more so than any of us who intend to buy the car) and even more obsessed with finding any and every negative comment about it. I've actually never seen a group as obsessed with a car as this group.
This part is where it gets absurd. Now when previous S-Class, specifically the S430 took its lumps (maybe not you specifically) others were all to happy to chime in and roast it right along with the car mags. Now this is a luxury car board and for years and years we've had to hear how superior the LS430 was compared to the previous S-Class (S430). We heard this over and over from you, Oac, Doc, and others, yet no one cried foul as much and/or left the board. Now that the tables have turned and the new darling LS460 hasn't set the world on fire using those same measuring sticks as the old car, the eurocarfans are all of a sudden obsessed with the LS460L because we're only doing what you and others did when the shoe was on the other foot. That it too cry babyish IMO. For months we heard over and over how it would be "1989" all over again and because it hasn't happened and the eurofans picked up on it and ran with it (like you all did previously) we have a problem? That is bs LJ.
Merc1 - When that C&D review came out years ago I posted that who cares what they say. It was an auto rag before that LS430 win and it's been an autorag after. To test a preproduction car, a prior ear car and two current year models is absurd. Do you think CNET would ever test high end televisoions like that? If they did would anyone take them seriously. On top of that they should crosscheck their results. They actually rated the LS430 way way above the current car. if I missed checks and balances like that in a financial report my CFO life would have been very short-lived.
LJ, Car and Driver and others magazines test pre-production cars all the time. Why this is so new to many here is beyond me. How else do you think they're able to get a car tested and have it all written up in time to meet the production cars when they show up at the dealer? This practice is nothing new. In that late 2003 C&D comparo they tested a 2003 S430 vs a whole field of 2004 cars, yet I saw no one claiming that Lexus had an unfair advantage then. Everyone for Lexus was fine with and trumpeted the results. What absolutely kills me is that you seem to care about what Cnet says about a car and to liken it to a TV. My god man a car is not a TV! Did you ever stop to think that the LS430 came out at least 2 years after the W220 S-Class did and that the LS430's competition was different then? This time it is a new LS and a new S. Forget the other cars in the test, the main two that everyone was waiting to see get compared are brand new and this time around the outcome was different. All this about the LS460 being a pre-production is just a grand excuse. What if I showed you that in a previous comparo C&D used a pre-production LS in a comparo and the LS won? Then would it have mattered? NO. Secondly, no one can seem to answer this; if the LS460L was so defective then why would Lexus supply the car to C&D for a test? Doesn't a quality-driven company like Lexus check their press cars to ensure quality like everyone else?
I wouldn't expect you to like the S because when you use words like "obliterate" and what not you're doing the same thing that you accuse others here of doing, going overboard. There is nothing about the LS that "obliterates" the S-Class this time around. The fact that anyone would give the new LS even a lackluster review should tell you something. I mean really, forget the C&D comparo. There have been numerous first drives in which the editors weren't impressed, the same group that were impressed by the LS430 relative to the competition of the day.
Now you say that all the reviews are dumb, yet when Automobile said initially that the LS460L set a new standard you posted that in a boast on the LS board. I have never, ever seen a bigger pair of blinders concerning one automobile.
The only knocks the press had against the LS430 were styling and handling which of course didn't matter to its defenders. This time around you've got brakes, styling, trunk space (in a Lexus LS!), and gasp price. The LWB car doesn't even enjoy that big of a price advantage (when loaded) like the old car did. If you can't see where at the very least things have changed on both sides then this really is pointless.
I'm sorry but to me you and others are just hiding behind this tone/mood excuse to escape the fact that the new LS hasn't lived up to the hype.
M
I would be interested in driving the GS350 since I found the GS300 to be quite entertaining. If only my right knee and thigh didn't hit the console! Also had trouble with the left foot well. The GS cockpit is quite confining despite the illusion of size created by its outward appearance.
Oh, well. I will attempt to sit in a GS350 if I see it at Thursday's auto show. I've never been a quitter.
Their were 3 sections for driving.
1. LS460, with a 7 series, and an S class for comparison. Their were numerous LS's to drive to keep the lines moving. [Mostly long wheel base] The line for the 1 S class backed up quite a bit.
2. IS 250,350, GS350,450h
3. ES, RX350,4ooh,SC430
First up The IS 350. Upon climbing in to the cabin and driving it about 150 yards to the starting line, I was very impressed with the cabin fit and finish. Very well done and comfortable. When given the OK I accelerated hard, and then braked for the first corner and the realization hit me that this car is a hilarious joke as a sports sedan IMO. The steering is beyond words artificial, and the chassis under steers like Dick Cheaney has accidental shootings on hunting excursions. I won't waste any more words on this joke of a car.
GS 350. Hpowers, LG and others are right on about this car. It's the most sporty of the bunch. The best steering, descent chassis and great acceleration once you start to make revs.
GS450h. It's everything that everyone says. Beyond the forceful acceleration I've already forgot about driving it.
BMW 7 series. I think someone loaded a bunch of buttons and control knobs in a shotgun, and shot the dashboard and general vicinity. This car is an ergonomic nightmare. IMO Drfill has it nailed. This car is not aging graciously. The transmission hunted for gears and it didn't feel all that great after driving the LS and S class.
Lexus LS460. Spending this kind of dough on a car should get you a unique car. Unfortunately to my eye is looks to much like a 40k ES. It drives awesome, however, The brakes are grabby. The interior is first class. The ergonomics are so superior to the Germans that it's almost a knife being brought to a gunfight, especially in the case of the 7 series. Acceleration is very strong, and this car feels very light on it's feet. On a side note, Lexus is very big on everything you read for a particular model having 0-60 times posted. They are geniuses in the American market knowing that most Americans measure performance simply in terms of acceleration. That and constantly hearing, and seeing demos of the car parking itself. BFD IMO. All that to say, the LS is an excellent car. It feels better through corners than the IS IMO.
S class. The interior isn't as warm as the LS but it's simply more of a drivers car. More buttoned down all the way through the track. My butt dynometer says that the S is a fair amount quicker than the LS, and the tranny smoother and quicker. When I got out of it, I had to turn around and really make sure I just drove a car that big and that felt that good around a track.
The ES, and RX drive like pigs, but are very nicely appointed.
All in all I had a good time and came away more convinced that Lexus has their stuff together, it's just stuff that I mostly wouldn't want. The LS on the other hand, well if I was in the market for that kind of car I would seriously consider it before I wouldn't buy it or the S class and wait for the redesign Audi A8. [what can I say, I'm drunk on the kool aid
Kudos to Lexus for putting on a very classy event.
In the Edmunds comparo no, it didnt. But then Edmunds ranked the GS430 in first place and gave the M45 Sport last place for being too sporty in their sport sedan comparison, so what do they know? It was kind of funny reading the backpedaling in the opening lines of their GS AWD review to try and explain how the GS could possibly be so good and yet so bad at the same time.
That AWD comparison also saw the RL receive first place over the A6 and M35x, so clearly Edmunds ability to judge the mid-lux category is questionable at best. C&D also really likes the RL for some reason. I don't get it, there's absolutely nothing about that car I like, and the vast majority of LPS shoppers seem to agree with me.
What other comparisons has the GS AWD been in?
I agree with you about the BMW 7. I would never get one and would pass on driving it if they have it at my Taste event.
The LS is what it is. More luxury than sport and probably always will be.
I pretty much know already that it is the GS350 that will most impress me since I liked the GS300 quite a bit.
Thanks for the comprehensive feedback!
It is unfortunate that the IS350 is not would it could've\should've been. The IS300 had razor sharp steering and a very good chassis that just needed some tweaking to solve the problem of it getting unsettled during at the limit manuvering. Unfortunately it was styled for teenagers (by a teenager, actually) and had a very anemic and very old powerplant. In the process of redesigning it for adults, they solved the power issue but forgot to keep all of the things that worked.
Pretty much went without sayin' that the 6.1 will be in the Ram soon enough. I, personally, would wait for the Next Ram to do so. I would expect less HP, 'round 400, but more torque!
Regarding the IS, the old interior was a bad joke, except for the pop-up NAV, which was worth buying just for the effect.
The old chassis was quite good, and Lexus seems more than happy to throw out the baby with the bathwater, since the baby had a lotta funk! :P
When I drive the IS350 tomorrow I expect a fast car, with strong brakes, with something very wrong with the steering, but high handling limits, if feeling somewhat disconnected.
I think a drive in the 7 is mandatory, just so I can gauge the LS handling vs. the Top Gun. Is the LS well behind the 7, and slightly behind the S? I doubt the design parameters were for German level handling. But the Touring Pkg, maybe? :confuse:
We'll see if the self-parking works. I'm sure they have a test area for this feature, no?
The IS seems made for bragging rights, not alley fights. It is beautiful, and super fast. But it flies in the face of Tag's Lexus vs. BMW argument. I doubt I will find a BMW alternative tomorrow. It's agenda may be more style than personality.
If nothing else, Lexus has proven that they can make bold, stylish cars. And they already were close to unstoppable. Maybe a driver's car will come next generation? :surprise:
DrFill
The IS seems made for bragging rights, not alley fights. It is beautiful, and super fast. But it flies in the face of Tag's Lexus vs. BMW argument. I doubt I will find a BMW alternative tomorrow. It's agenda may be more style than personality.
Between you and dhamilton's post, the IS is sounding a bit lukewarm.
Here's what dhamilton posted about the IS:
...the realization hit me that this car is a hilarious joke as a sports sedan IMO. The steering is beyond words artificial, and the chassis under steers like Dick Cheaney has accidental shootings on hunting excursions. I won't waste any more words on this joke of a car.
Can it be that bad?
I can't wait for your feedback on the IS, Doc, just to see how different your opinion might be than dhamilton's opinion is.
It might illuminate how different reviewers can write such different reviews on the exact same car . . . or . . . maybe you will agree with dhamilton! I want to know the outcome on this one.
TagMan
It could've been such a good car, too. The problem was Lexus took the Toyota Altezza, replaced the badge, and went "done!". Thats fine for cars like the Aristo (GS) and Soarer (SC), but the Altezza just wasn't an upmarket car. If Lexus had instead used the Altezza platform to make a car with Lexus level body design and interior quality (think Camry\ES), and used the Supra twin turbos on the old 3.0L inline, 300hp would be no problem at all. That would've been a fabulous car, and probably would've given the G35 a very tough fight, instead of handing Acura and Infiniti sales on a silver platter.
Why dont I work at Lexus?
Dhamilton, I assume yours was set that way?
commercial
Actually the only LS460 spot I've seen, since I don't watch much TV. Hope the other ads get posted on the web, if anyone else finds one, please post a link.
Of course, more user intervention is required to park than is suggested by the commercial, but that's typical of ads I guess.