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I just took my neighbor -- who has a BMW 7-series with the Sport package -- out for a drive. We spent around an hour comparing the two cars. He was blown away by the Lexus, how quiet and refined it is, how well all the tech works and how easily it can be accessed by the driver, and by the overall sense of very high quality. He was blown away by the rear seat, and thought the handling of our LS460L was not that bad. His BMW is one great handling sedan, but the penalties in NVH make the Lexus feel "peaceful and soothing" in comparison. His words. He's also a performance freak (my daily driver is an E55, and he's had a series of AMG and M cars) so I was surprised that his opinions followed my own pretty closely.
He has also spent a great deal of time driving the new S-Class; he can afford just about any car, and said he'd choose the Lexus over the Benz any day....
The guy is very passionate about cars, and just isn't impressed by the new S-Class. He feels the interior is a copy of the BMW, and he liked the LS interior better than either of the German cars. He liked both the design and the materials in the Lexus.
Love the BMW wood. Top quality without calling attention to itself. We BMW drivers do not need to be reminded that we have "arrived." The BMW wood represents the understated taste expected in fine luxury vehicles, none of which, by the by, have any problems with "stop and go", which obviously, still seems to elude those great Lexus engineers.
Uh...no. While the Lexus gloss look doesn't bother me (although the ES330 went a bit overboard on that) they certainly do not do wood better than any other car maker. They are beaten by Audi and Jaguar, and Aston Martin, Bentley, Rolls Royce, etc.
Why don't you wait until YOU compare the two cars before you start doing your review. Doc gave us HIS impressions and there is no need for you to tell us what he meant. We can all read faily well by now. Please, just take a deep breath and relax.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I know what Doc meant, just like the rest of you. I have no problem with that, and appreciate his view, as I told him in one of my posts to him.
When I posted a remark to dhamilton, however, about Mercedes superior engineering, in response to Doc's post, brightness jumped in and thought that I was actually quoting the Doc. I was only stating my own opinion . . . and I am entitled to that.
hijacking? My post 20594 and previous posts explain the simple confusion.
I should have made it clearer when quoting the Doc, and when giving my opinion, as it seems that brightness confused the two, and then the whole thing snowballed.
So . . . there is no hijacking. Again, I have explained all of this already, and to perpetuate this is a waste of time.
TagMan
TM
It's basically the same stuff they put on the S65, but without 738lb-ft of torque and sportier suspension.
And while I'm on the subject, BOY WHAT A RIDE!!!!! This car is the absolute most quietest car I've ever been in, hands down, until you stab the throttle. The V12 comes to life and you'd better hold on.
Actually, truth be told, the controls on the car are actually EASIER to configure than the old COMAND system, particularly the few menu screens. The seats are now the benchmark in the V12 class, beating the almighty Bentley and 760iL. The contours and ventilation featurs are absolutely peerless.
This is not to say I'm already putting the S8 down, but these cars are in different leagues. The S8 does hustle better, but the S600 will run with it and offer a better highway ride.
Mercedes customer service has greatly improved since my S65. I got a call today from MBUSA to see if the car has arrived yet. I told them it has, and they replied that I should be looking out for a "reception" gift withing 1-3 days. HMMMM?? Audi didn't do that, altho I did get free maintenance, so you take what you can get.
BOY WHAT A RIDE!!!!! This car is the absolute most quietest car I've ever been in, hands down, until you stab the throttle. The V12 comes to life and you'd better hold on.
I can only use my imagination on this one! When you get the chance, tell me as much as you can about your initial experience with this wonderful car.
Lucky guy!
TagMan
Gotta disagree completely with that one. No German, Japanese or American makes does wood like any of the British or Italian brands. The wood in a Bentley is flawless and always seems to be just the right color and there is more of it too. Ditto for Jaguar and Rolls-Royce. Maserati and Aston-Martin have a way with wood also. The only German brand that comes close to matching the British is Audi. Mercedes is second and then BMW. BMW rightfully doesn't care about wood. They're the only one left that doesn't offer the option of wooden steering wheel on any of their cars. This may have changed with the 7-Series recently, I'm not sure. Lexus' wood is gaudy most of the time as in the SC430 when you start playing with different color combinations. Way overdone.
M
Please share some pics of the 600 and the S8 when you can get them both together.
M
I just love this:
Thanks to "Magwheel" from MBWorld.
M
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
M
In my 545, the wood is manly and handsome. There just isn't a lot of it. And it doesn't scream "success' at you. Understated tasteful elegance. The quality of wood one would expect at an upscale steak house.
As an aside, saw my first Lexus GS350 today (dark gray ) parked in my next door neighbor's driveway. The car's a looker with very nice aggressive-looking wheels. Best looking of the 2007 Lexus vehicles, IMO. If I could only persuade the visitor to let me drive it for 5 minutes.
Agree. The new X5 is the one BMW interior I actually like. Its arguably best in class, at least until the Q5 comes along. The 3 series without iDrive is also quite nice. The rest, pass.
They all sing the praises of the current model until the new one comes out. Then, "Well this new model takes care of the heavy nose, or the bad brakes, or not enough power, etc.
I still wonder just how rigid a car body can be. Each year it seems that the new body is 30 or 40 percent more rigid that the last one. Interesting time of year.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Just stood there and stared like a typical Edmunds poster, I guess. I will resume gawking and hopefully actually sit in one this Thursday at the auto show and then, actually drive one at the Lexus Taste in a few weeks.
Perhaps it will spread across the line.
A lot ot truth to that idea! But sometimes the weaknesses are only seen by contrast to the latest and greatest version itself . . . so it was never really seen as a weakness in its own time.
I still wonder just how rigid a car body can be. Each year it seems that the new body is 30 or 40 percent more rigid that the last one.
They could potentially get a whole lot more rigid . . . as a result of nano technology . . . if, in the future, it is utilized in automotive design and production.
TagMan
Where have you seen one of those? :P
I took the liberty of assuming that most of us around here are probably shameless gawkers when we see a new vehicle we haven't seen before.
For those of you who are "too cool" to do so, I apologize.
Anyway, please continue... we atypical and typical Edmunds posters look forward to your TOL report!!
They all sing the praises of the current model until the new one comes out. Then, "Well this new model takes care of the heavy nose, or the bad brakes, or not enough power, etc.
I thought I was the only person who noticed this! What you say is SO TRUE. Outgoing models change in one day from "state of the art" to "tired, old, antiquated and worn out" styling, don't they? Makes you wonder how the old car changed so much, just because the new one is out. Plus, I've noticed in the rags that ANY new model they love, no matter who makes it, or what it is - it's just wonderful, until the next new model comes out.
I still wonder just how rigid a car body can be. Each year it seems that the new body is 30 or 40 percent more rigid that the last one. Interesting time of year.
Another of my very own thoughts, that I didn't think anybody else shared. Just how friggin rigid CAN a frame be! You'd think, after each model being 10 times more stiff than the last one, you'd have the rigidity of the Sears Tower by now.
Gotta love the magazines......
While most of the time this is true, its not always the case. Top Gear did a "new vs. old" test, and in several cases the new cars were beaten by the old ones, at least in acceleration. The 300ZX TT outran the 350Z, for example.
When you consider that thirty years ago car frames were as stiff as a bowl of jelly, its not that hard to imagine that platforms can continue to improve. I remember in one of the early road tests of the new Infiniti M, the reviewer mentioned that in order to show off the enhancements they had made to the FM platform compared to the G, Infiniti showed a computer simulation of the frames of the G and M under hard acceleration. The reviewer said that compared to the M, the G appeared to be "flopping around like a fish".
They all sing the praises of the current model until the new one comes out. Then, "Well this new model takes care of the heavy nose, or the bad brakes, or not enough power, etc.
Interesting.
A lot ot truth to that idea! But sometimes the weaknesses are only seen by contrast to the latest and greatest version itself . . . so it was never really seen as a weakness in its own time.
Even more interesting.
I think both viewpoints are valid depending on the vehicle in question.
I notice that with the new CL the writers and a Mercedes exec (like a Lexus exec before him) is saying unflattering things about the old CL, design wise that is. Design wise the outgoing CL was praised all across the world, it even won several European design awards, but now Holger Hutzenlaub is saying that old car was too conservative and didn't look the part. The old CL is easily regarded by most Benz fans as one of Mercedes' best looking cars of the last 20 years, but now it didn't look right? Right.
Not every new car gets this type of treatment relative to the old one though. Various GM, Nissans (new Sentra C&D Dec) and more germane to this thread the 5-Series didn't get instant praise over their immediate predecessors. C&D has come around to the 5-Series in recent comparos, almost putting it in 1st place, but there is a problem: the M45. If it weren't for this car they'd now be singing the praises of the 5-Series, now that the car is going into its 4th model year.
Automobile Magazine stated flat out that they liked the previous W124 E-Class (1986-1995) better than the W210 (1996-2002) E-Class and they did so for years after the W210's introduction. This sentiment was echoed by more than a few owners also. I agreed with this also, still do when it comes to most things about the W210 relative to the W124.
Then you have cars like the Saturn Ion which truthfully is just a piece of junk so there is no way its replacement could be any worse so the new model praise will be fully justified. Off thread I know, but it is one outstandingly crappy car!
Oh, the Infiniti M45 comes to mind too. Compared the place-holder model Infiniti first brought over the new model is in another league.
How could I forget Acura. The press moaned big time when the Acura Legend was replaced by the RL and while the press has come around to the car this last time around, buyers have been moaning every since for the Legend.
M
Yeah in their "best and worst automotive makeovers" list, the GM "big nose" minivans, and Impala were listed as being worse than the cars they replaced, at least styling wise. Interestingly, they had this to say about the new Camry:
"Toyota took the bestselling car in America, the inoffensively styled Camry, and in an effort to make it appear more upscale for 2007, grafted on a ponderous schnoz and a cellulite-puckered rump, the latter crime more grave. The result looks like an aging starlet who’s had work done, only to be exposed and damned by the invention of HDTV."
That I don't really agree with. At least in SE trim, the new Camry doesn't look bad. Also, the old car was the styling equivalent of packaged cheese slices. I don't see how you can do "worse" than that.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/11617/the-best-and-worst-automotive-makeove- rs.html
Also, the old car was the styling equivalent of packaged cheese slices.
Lol. Don't ever stop with the creative descriptions!
M
For instance, the 2006 Mercedes-Benz E320 CDI posts EPA estimates of 27 city, 37 highway, for a combined figure of 30, yet owners (seven of them so far) report an average of more than 33 mpg. The 2007 version I drove, with its updated Bluetec engine that will be 50-state compatible next year with a new urea-injection system to cut nitrogen oxide emissions by 80 percent, posts 26 city, 37 highway, also for a combined figure of 30 mpg. In a recent 300-mile test-drive of an E320 CDI Bluetec, we saw an average of more than 33 mpg. That included about 85 miles of around-town driving, split over several days, with several puff-free cold starts (the aluminum-block engine warms up quite quickly) and several just-for-kicks full-throttle launches, along with a Saturday highway loop that included a variety of roads, including 70-mph expressway driving, creeping through small towns, and slaloming up and down a national-forest road to a trailhead. On that 300-mile day loop, we averaged more than 35 mpg, indicating that for the highway driving we were running around the 40-mpg mark for much of the time.
Full Article
M
As I have posted before, the rear of the new Camry looks cheap and ugly to me. I much prefer the older design-conservative but not embarrassing.
However, Toyota designers got it right with the Avalon.
Smart looking, front and rear.
Good question. There are more than a few prospective E320 Bluetec owners on MBWorld that are upset about the E320 not being available with the sport package which is for 07' (gasp!) a no charge option. I guess the bigger wheels/tires would bring the MPG numbers down some and MB seems to be going for maximum efficiency with the E320 Bluey.
M
And most importantly of all, will the owner have to endure urea jokes, like "if you run out of urea can you pop the hood and piss into the car?"
M
I must be especially sensitive to grills because there are quite a few that I don't like:
1. Honda Accord- This car really doesn't have a grill. If you look at one head on and up close about all you see is the radiator.
2. Audi- I don't think I will ever get used to that big mouth look.
3. O7 MDX- A brilliant car/truck except the nose looks like a big chrome cheese slicer.
For me, simple is better.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I agree on the Audis. Can't stand the front. Too bad. Their interiors are among the best.
Well, the MDX had nowhere to go but better. The outgoing design was minivan dull. Big mistake not having front and rear parking sensors in such a big vehicle.
So far the best-designed new vehicle I have seen happens to be the Lexus GS350; the worst, the Camry, with the Accord not too far behind.
I will be at the auto show tomorrow and will get a better look inside and out-especially at the new LS, MDX, GS350, MB E-Class Bluetec and the S-Class. Hope they have a Camry SE to look at but they will probably go with the boring XLE.
Can't wait to test a Bluetec. My 545i should get me a free pass into a test drive. Could be my next vehicle.
Should render hybrid technology obsolete.
In an ideal world, I could see myself with a new MDX for transporting my road bike to great cycling trails throughout the country and a Bluetec for everything else.
If there is enough demand for it, M-B will probably do it. I can't imagine the penalty for the bigger wheels and suspension changes would be more than what, 2mpg? 3? Im sure there are plenty that would be willing to make that sacrifice, especially considering you'd still be well ahead of the gasoline E350 even with the drop.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I do wish the BMW interiors were as nice as the Audis.
I have a crush on that dark gray Lexus GS350 I saw yesterday.
Hope to see one up close at the auto show tomorrow and sit in many of the MB, Audi, Acura and Lexus vehicles. No BMWs.
Thanks for your kind words, Tony. I still have a few weeks to go for the TOL. My wife was supposed to go but she dropped out. Means more caviar for me, I guess.
I will try to drive carefully, thanks, but not slowly! It is, after all, on the other side of my state.