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Personally, I don't think either the RAV4, the RDX or the X3 qualify, however.
BTW, if stripped compact SUV's with luxury brands make for a market segment (a fair point considering this is a forum on luxury marques, although not quite high end :-) Landrover Freelander with the equally underpowered engine and stripped interior probably was the first entry, two years or so before X3. I'd certainly agree that luxury marques can help sell cars, even if bare-bones ones that are not luxurious at all, at a somewhat marked up prices.
So 10 extra hp V-6 and a size that's now within the size of the X3 is now meant to say they're in the same class?
First off, the RAV4 ain't no X3, nowhere close. Yes, it has slightly more power, but the X3 will flat out smoke it in performance. And with RAV4's rather pedastrian interior as opposed to the more premium materials in the X3, well you actually do get what you pay for.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
But please, I'd like to hear your reasoning fer or aginst. Come here and do some 'splainin' : What makes a vehicle truly high end?
Very cool and lucky to have been there . . . but OUCH! Now don't complain too much about losing, cause you've still got a darned terrific team there, unlike some of the rest of us this season!
TagMan
It comes down to what "is" luxury. There's the badge of course, but if luxury means things like multi-adjustable power seats, leather, dual-zone climate, etc. are must have features, there are many cars from luxury brands that would fail, and many mainstream cars that would pass. I'm of the opinion that an A4 stripper is still a luxury car, and a fully loaded Jetta GLI is not.
Here's the article:
Audi heading for new record figures in 2006
TagMan
You couldn't have put it better. Tbat cloth-seated, single-zone AC, 16 inch wheeled is still more of a luxury car than that full-leathered, 18" wheeled, dual-zone AC GLI, no matter how much the Jetta closes in on the Audi's price.
Is the $38K Passat 3.6 4Motion more luxury than the 35-40k IS, 330i, TL, A4, CTS or even ES350? Absolutely not.
Or the fully loaded 36k Nissan Maxima over it's $34k G35S counterpart? Heck no, not even close.
So no, price doesn't even scratch the surface.
So 10 extra hp V-6 and a size that's now within the size of the X3 is now meant to say they're in the same class?
First off, the RAV4 ain't no X3, nowhere close. Yes, it has slightly more power, but the X3 will flat out smoke it in performance. And with RAV4's rather pedastrian interior as opposed to the more premium materials in the X3, well you actually do get what you pay for.
Maybe I came in too late to join this fight, but let's not make the X3 out to be no Range Rover! You got the X3 having a Bentley interior over there. Jeez! Last time I checked, the X3 didn't have a posh interior, as few BMWs do. :confuse:
The X3 is nothing scary, and the Rav4 ain't no RX, fair enough?
DrFill
I think I have a new lust object.
M
Man, do I agree with ya . . . absolutely stunning Jaguar . . . but don't think about trading in your CLK just yet!
TagMan
Here's two briefs:
link title
link title
TagMan
source Automotive News
And . . . just another indication that diesels are really coming.
Their written agreement clearly focuses on a collaboration surrounding diesel technology. Here's a little more detail from the same source:
PRESS RELEASE: Isuzu and Toyota sign basic agreement on business collaboration
Diesels . . . ahh, yes. How sweet it is!
TagMan
I think the wait will be worth it.
TagMan
New England Patriots: A perfect 6-0 sans Laurasdada! :sick:
And, as a TL owner, I will disagree with the poster(s) criticizing the interior. I find it to be a stylish, functional driving envrionment. While not a huge fan of aluminum, at least it is real and breaks up the sea of (quality and nicely textured) plastic. Also, the faux carbon fiber goes mostly unnoticed by me, inoffensive. The faux, light-colored wood I agree is not very attractive. Too each...
Bring on the Jets, I'm feeling a little better (I'm not quite dead yet...).
'21 Dark Blue/Black Audi A7 PHEV (mine); '22 White/Beige BMW X3 (hers); '20 Estoril Blue/Oyster BMW M240xi 'Vert (Ours, read: hers in 'vert weather; mine during Nor'easters...)
I think that our friends at "Big Oil" will eventually charge us 40% more (than reg) for diesel because it will increase mpg by 40%. That way they get the savings and not us because I think diesel is actually cheaper to make. If diesel will increase your mpg by 40% but costs 40% more, where's the advantage?
Boy, do I hope I am wrong on this!!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I will check the local prices here and report back to you, because I know they are much higher overall than your prices . . . lucky you.
But, the higher prices makes diesel's increase less on a percentage basis. If you really believe that diesel will be 40% higher, then you should consider that the E-Class diesel in most of the recent real-life reports achieved an average of 33 mpg overall. The gas-versions of the E in real life typically average about 19 mpg. I know this because I owned one a few years ago with the 430 V8.
So, here is where we are with this. The current percentage increase is about 25%, and you are fearful of 40%. Even if that happens, the E gets almost 73% better mileage with the diesel! That's right . . . the jump from 19mpg to 33mpg is an increase of approximately 73%! I highly doubt diesel fuel's price increase will ever approach that.
Also, with regards to the SUV, there will still be a significant increase in fuel economy, although it is not factually known what percentage increase it will be, but I think it is safe to expect it to be at LEAST 50%. For example, if the gas SUV gets 16 mpg avg. in real life (which is possibly optimistic!), and the diesel only gets 22mpg, then we are talking about a 50% increase in fuel economy.
So, unless something catostrophic happens to the price of diesel fuel, I think it is fair to say that the diesel will be a very good alternative with regards to fuel economy at a real-cost level.
TagMan
The Q7 and GL both have a 65" front track and their difference in the rear track is 9/10ths of an inch, hardly worth mentioning. Their lengths are also near identical, with the Q7 coming in at 200.2" and the GL at 200.3". Overall body widths are similar, but I do know that Audi includes the side mirrors in its reported dimension, and I cannot confirm that Mercedes does the same. If so, then the Q7 would seem wider, but the interior width or the width excluding mirrors would be more accurate to really know . . . especially when considering that the front track widths are identical to each other..
In any event, I believe these vehicles to be very similar in their overall dimensions. As you know, the GL was just awarded SUV of the year by Motor Trend with 22 contenders. It's a good write up on a terrific vehicle.
I certainly should add that the Q7 is a nice vehicle, too and I don't want to infer that the GL is the ONLY good choice out there.
I would also expect something new and nice from Lexus soon.
TagMan
My thinking is that Q7 reliability is more likely to improve than ML/GL/R, since that Alabama factory still produced unreliable MLs even late in the previous generation.
I think the rumored JX may be interesting, though more of a crossover and less of an SUV. Am waiting with baited breath. Need to see if it will be roomy enough, primarily.
Here's two briefs:
link title
link title
Thanks, but I can't say this rumor is exactly news to me. How else would Lexus compete with 5.5 Turbo-charged V12s but with hybrids?
DrFill
Can an apple really compete with an orange?
Y'know Doc . . . I wonder if we have now come to an age where the electric motors of a hybrid are a modern day alternative to a turbocharger or a supercharger. Whereby those motors provide the additional ponies in the same vain as a turbo or blower might add extra power?
It has already been shown that they can add power, but we're talking about a major shift in perception here . . . from fuel economizer to power booster.
Those electric motors are going to have to prove themselves at the top tiers to be taken seriously . . . they will have to compete SUCCESSFULLY against those Turbo-charged v12s to prove their merit . . . and prove that an apple can indeed compete with an orange. We'll see.
TagMan
Isn't it though. I think my next car could be a XKR or a SL, in about ahh...4 years or so! I'm over (I think) the CLS for the moment and the new CL will still likely be out of reach for me, maybe. That leaves the SL. I sat in one of these for a while the other day while getting my first oil change and man I love that car! The way it seals you up once you're inside is priceless. The smell, the materials the promise of 382hp on the "base" 550 model is just overwhelming.
Then you have the Jag. While the XKR is gorgeous in general, the XK in general has one of the best rear ends in the business. It is classic in the sense that it looks like they "stretch the sheetmetal to cover the chassis". While looking at some XKs while the dealer was closed (Sunday, no pestering from sales folks) I really became drawn to the XK. The car is downright stunning in Jaguar Racing Green with a beige top or Indigo Blue with a blue top. Oh well, the SL/XK decision is years off.
M
In any case, I doubt many in the HELM realm care about gas savings. The real breakthrough on diesel will depend on how the noise, vibration and tail pipe smell work out in long term real life ownership. That, and how the fuel system copes with cold weather. Americans don't take care of their cars like Europeans and Japanese do (e.g. I have never seen any car in the US draped with blanket over the grille like it's common for winter season overseas); our garages are full of whimsical purchases, and many of us do not have the patience or discipline parking two cars tightly side by side into the garage :-) Northeast also happens to be the highest income area outside of California (which is hell bent on tail pipe control), so the acceptance of diesel will depend on how well they start and run smoothly on sub-zero mornings with two inches of snow on the hood ;-) Can the new diesels be idled overnight like the commercial trucks do? and is it noisy on the outside?
The 19 mpg rating of an E class V8 is absolutely real-life, as is the 33 mpg reported mpg average of the BlueTec so far. That represents a 73% increase, no matter how you slice it. As far as the 37.5% increase, thanks for catching my typo. I had originally calculated based on a 24 mpg average for the BlueTec SUV, but since I posted 22, it is correct that it should have been 37.5%.
In any case, I doubt many in the HELM realm care about gas savings.
Absolutely not true. Many in this forum DO care about mpg, as proved by syswei's original post about the fuel economy of diesel, and many, many other previous posts that have referred to fuel economy. Sure, many of us are willing to suck it up and pay the fuel costs when its worth it, but on the other hand, most of us are not going to just fork it over unnecessarily.
There's been plenty of enthusiasm on this forum regarding diesels (as opposed to hybrids) as a terrific way to increase fuel efficiency and many of us look forward to it, me being one of them. Sure, there are other benefits to diesels, such as increased torque and longevity, but none is more pronounced than fuel efficiency.
the acceptance of diesel will depend on how well they start and run smoothly on sub-zero mornings with two inches of snow on the hood
Recently diesels represent the largest sales increase ever, and this is in spite of the slim product choices, and further is in the face of hybrids, whose growth percentage is now overshadowed by diesels. Diesel sales projections are greater than hybrids and they are expected to take at least 10% of the market in a relatively short period of time. I had posted these statistics a couple of months ago on this forum.
I have confidence in Mercedes Benz diesels. Their success with diesels is unsurpassed, IMO. Further, the diesel alliance between all the German manufacturers will only help to reinforce the positive perception of diesels.
TagMan
Maybe its just me, but the SL leaves me a bit cold. I've seen that front end on at least three Benzes for years, and when I see one from the front, it takes me a minute to even figure out which Benz it is. I just don't think the SL is a "head turning" car anymore. Combine that with the fact that the XKR outpowers the SL550, costs $10K less, and weighs 400lbs less, well I think the choice is obvious.
I don't know if any of you caught my post a few days back, but I mentioned that I would be going to view an XKR. And WOW! What a machine. This car is phenomenal to say the slightest. And this coming from me, a guy who didn't get to test drive. The car was on a Jaguar tour, so it was their car.
On the SL, I always thought MB could've smoothened out the lines a bit, but, the car is still the king in this arena. And with the '07 refresh, the car is still at attention.
But the Jag just offers something different, including the SC, XLR, and Porsche 911 Cab. It's unique British charm somehow rings through with a new and refreshing flare. If the R8 wasn't on my radar, that XKR would look very good in the stable.
BTW: The CLS' look kinda grew on us in about 6 months and we sold the CLS 55, so I feel ya Merc. First oil change on the CLK? Welcome to the wonderful world of the 180 buck oil change.
For instance, in my common-rail(most diesels are this way now) equipped '05 Dodge Ram 3500 that I use to haul my showcars from show to show, the truck requires two things: You and the ignition key.
Sure, with the conversion to low-sulfur diesel, some diesel still start with clatter, especially in below freezing weather, however not overbearingly so. But once everything is warmed up, they can be as quite as gas enignes at idle, surprizingly.
Take for instance MB's new 3.2L V-6 Bluetec TD. The engine is quieter at idle than MB's outgoing, once top of the class, 5.0L 302hp, 24V, quad-cam, high-tech V8. This was the engine that started the whole "over 300hp race", with great success.
The Bluetec, conversely, is starting a following. MB has ramped up development of the engines from 365k(including European variants) to 550k, just to take up some of the demand. I've sampled it in a Jeep Grand Cherokee, and the thing was simply amazing. A short 10 years ago, you could hear a diesel engine a mile away.
And then the mileage awards kick in. The 5.7L HEMI-equipped GC gets 15/19 in EPA ratings on a very good day, while the 220hp/376lbs-ft of torque Bluetec gets 20/26. and this is a truck-based SUV, built for crushing boulders, and still gets to 60 in under 8 secs.
In short, the latest in diesel technology is simply astonishing. You can actually buy a vehicle without the need to worry about what your neighbors may think when you bring home a chugging diesel.
I pulled up next to a new Jetta TDI and there was no way for me to tell if it was gas or oil-burner, as it was just that quiet and refined.
I'm(along with Tag) looking hard at the MB GL Bluetec to replace my Commander as my do-all SUV, because the engine is just that good, surrounded by the best full-sizer on the market today.
Hope this helps..
Just maybe.
BTW: For the most part, I'm more into late 50's Detroit and all of the muscle car era.
But I do have a Model A and T that 100% restored to spec that get a lot of attention.
But my most prized possessions are probably rare rides like the Weber fuel-injected '57 Chevy(only 181 made), the super rare '62 Elorado Convert, a '63 Split Window Vette, a '69 Yenko Camaro, and of course the big one, the '71 Challenger R/T 426 HEMI. Since DCX has sparked interest back into this car, these cars are taking close to $400k at Barret-Jackson auction.
As you can see, like myself, the older the better. I go through new cars like drinking water, but the collectable are here to stay.
I saw where you said that you may hold off until the Q7 gets a bit better to get one.
Well I'm holding off anyway until the V12 TDI gets onboard for '08, so it looks like the GL and Q7 will be getting cross-shopped in the distant future.
That's if I get one. MDX still a possibility (don't like the fake wood). Or Lexus JX (don't even know if it's for real, much less whether it will suit our needs). Or maybe Q7, possibly diesel if one is out in the right timeframe, but not V12 as I don't need that much power and also don't tow anything...unless you count a hitch-mounted bike carrier.
The SL is shall we say a familiar sight on the road today. Now comparing the SL550 to the top XKR is only somewhat correct, you and I both know the SL55 is the car to pit against the XKR. Of course on price Jaguar almost always manages to look better and duck the real competition. I wouldn't get to caught up on what front end has been seen on what car before with the XK's snout being in place on cars other than Jaguars. The SL and CL (and recently the CLK) have always had a similar front end, only that dreaded C "Coupe" messed it up by taking it downmarket.
M
Well don't get me wrong on the CLS, I still love the design, but I don't feel like I want anything with 4-doors. Nope this first one was on them!!!
M
BMW Defines Diesel Strategy For North America
TagMan
The Jaguar XKR is a beautiful car as well, and I don't see how anyone should ever think that they made a mistake by purchasing one instead of the SL, or visa versa.
Two stunning cars anyone should be proud and fortunate to own.
TagMan
Rapid market share growth from near-zero is easy to achieve . . . the tough part is from 10% to 40%. Like I said, the acceptence of diesel in HELM is highly dependent on how well and smoothly the engine will run in cold weather. Very few cars can make it with Californian market alone. It takes both the Californian and Northeastern markets to make a high premium novelty succeed.
Having had a MB diesel many years ago, I, well, let's just say that I know first-hand the reputation there is a bit over-rated.
The 5.0L 24V V8 was one of the noisiest engine in that class (btw, never quite figured out how the marketting turned that SOHC 24V into DOHC 24V overnight . . . I mean it's still 3 valves per cylinder, right?). The joke is that everything from MB is proclaimed to be "high-tech" until it is replaced by something comparable to the competition, like real 32V DOHC V8 in this case, as in the new 5.5L. The literature for the DOHC 3.5L V6 still liberally sprinkled with phrases like "stunning 265hp" when in reality the competition is fielding 300+hp 3.5L. Go figure.
M
Does this mean there are dozens of others sitting in the ho-hum part of your collection?
;-)
;-)