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Volkswagen workers like Ronald Wachendorf, a 50-year-old mechanic, have enjoyed the shortest work week in the global auto industry: 28.8 hours, pulling down a full week's pay while working a day less than the 40-hour norm at General Motors Corp. and even less than the 35-hour standard at other German car makers....
But now, Mr. Wachendorf is having to adjust to a more hectic schedule -- at least by Volkswagen standards. In September, Mr. Wachendorf's union agreed to extend working hours at the company's German plants by more than four hours a week, to 33 hours, after the auto maker threatened to shift production outside the country. Volkswagen won't pay the workers extra to compensate for their longer schedule....
The change under way at Volkswagen reflects a broader trend in Europe's largest economy. With unemployment running around 10%, companies have more leverage to demand sacrifices of workers. Increasingly, businesses are pressuring employees to work longer for the same amount of money and threatening to shift production abroad.
In a country that is home to the world's best-paid auto workers, Volkswagen goes even further -- paying $69 an hour, compared with the national average of $44 and the U.S. standard of $34. Because of its reluctance to cut jobs, Volkswagen employs thousands of workers to make seat covers, exhaust systems and steering gears -- work most auto makers outsource.
source WSJ
Wow, I don't even take that many shots when on vacation. What camera do you use?
He's right. Compare Toyota to the above VW situation, a textbook example of how to be unprofitable. Porsche may brag about being the "world's most profitable automaker", but its much easier to enjoy that status selling exotics with $15K option packages than it is to be a mass marketer like Toyota.
They might also want to spend some time studying Lexus (or even Cadillac), as those Lincoln guys have no idea what the hell they are doing. If there was a JD Power award for the most time spent stumbling around in the dark without a clue, Lincoln would win it hands down.
No problem... Lotus "Sport Pack" / "Track Pack" suspension is history for me. Believe me, other cars are cream puffs by comparison.
I hope you are correct about the diesel situation. Can you imagine a full-sized SUV averaging 25 mpg? Diesel can make it happen.
It WILL happen. Your location and diesel-fuel availability is certainly a variable. Next time you take the 5-Series to your local gas station(s) and fill-er-up, take a moment to ask the folks at the station(s) if they have any info about upcoming availability of diesel fuel.
If they don't know yet, continue to ask again occassionally throughout the year. Most likely, it's not a matter of IF it will happen, but WHEN it will happen. Hopefully soon enough for YOU.
TagMan
Previously I shared your excitement about diesel HELCs but I think there will be obstacles to their success in North Amercica. My view was expressed on post number 22613:
dewey, "High End Luxury Cars" #22613, 29 Dec 2006 7:39 am
I find a 2.2l diesel Accord far more exciting than any diesel HELC. Interestingly the hyrbid Accord will be discontinued. Unfortunately a Honda V6 diesel will likely have the same Urea issues as the German HELCs.
Honda president Takeo Fukui has been quoted in the Japanese press as saying that a next generation V-6 diesel will be commercialized by Honda, and is set to slot into the Ridgeline along with other unspecified models.
First, though, Honda will kick off with its 2.2-2.4-litre class, four-cylinder “super clean” turbodiesel that’ll run in the next Stateside Accord, appearing around 2009. This is expected be a breakthrough engine, with emissions as clean as clean as a modern gasoline powerplant, able to meet even the toughest regulations in the world (i.e. the EPA’s Tier II Bin 5 regulations).
Once this Accord diesel goes on sale, the Accord hybrid will be quietly
SOURCE: WINDING ROAD
I know our disputes always ends up being friendly and I know they will not end up resembling a GasCarFan vs. a Dieselican dispute (God forbid).
I knew you would love that quote from the article I linked regarding Mually's LS cancellation.
Similar quotes were made by CEOs from BMW, MB and VW and other American auto executives. Most auto executives worldwide are in awe with Toyota's production system.
I've never heard such a quote from Nissan's Ghosn or Honda's CEO. I guess they themselves have a great production system (although not as great as Toyota's). Oh well I guess it is harder to compliment a rival when they are just across the road from you. (figuratively speaking ofcourse)
To which I will add, amen.
I had one (count it) shot at buying a vehicle designed & manufactured in the USA, and I'll never do it again. The Lincoln LS had quite a bit of promise, all squandered in a few years.
I find a 2.2l diesel Accord far more exciting than any diesel HELC.
Dewey,
I'm personally excited about diesels in ALL segments... including the ones you mentioned.
To say we are early in the game is an understatement. It is always a possibiity that the diesel engines won't turn out to be as expected and/or hoped, but everything so far is pointing to success.
It seems logical, at first, to consider a diesel engine for a truck or SUV. And after that, it is easy to imagine the small diesels such as VW's diesels of recent years. Next, we foresee slightly larger diesels in vehicles like the Accord, which also makes great sense.
It takes a little more of a stretch to really see them in the HELCs, I agree. So far, Mercedes has not placed a diesel in a North American HELC, but has chosen the E-Class as their sedan of choice. Is it because the diesel isn't quite smooth enough for a car like the S-Class? Not enough power? These are questions to be answered as time goes on over the next years, and we will find out.
If a powerful and quiet diesel can indeed make its way into a HELC, and it is not a compromise, then I see it as a terrific step forward. If there are too many compromises for the HELC segment, then it will become known to us. But, I believe in the technological capabilities of the manufacturers and I believe that this point in history is revealing more of their capabilities than in a very long time.
With regards to the use of diesels in this HELC segment, I'm certainly not ruling out their potential in advance, nor am I just automatically expecting diesels to be big winners right out of the gate. Who would have ever expected to see a hybrid in a HELC? Yet, years after the fist generation hybrid, look now at the upcoming Lexus LS600hL, for example. So, progress should also be a factor with this new generation of cleaner-burning, smoother and quieter diesels.
BMW, Audi and Mercedes (in this segment) are amazing companies, and I imagine that great things will likely come from them with regards to their future diesels.
TagMan
I have a Cannon PowerShot SD550 Digital Elph.
M
One of the hosts rented a new BMW convertible for 1.9% interest over 3 years also with no money down.
You present compelling arguments. Well done. Thanks to you & Mark on another board, I'm seriously considering a lease, for the first time ever for my next vehicle, a highly-subsidized BMW.
The thing I've never been able to work out, though, is how the "system" makes money on the vehicles turned in off lease, with ridiculously high residuals. If they can't sell them for that, it seems that taking that big a hit wouldn't make sense. And if, as so many say, the thing falls apart ten minutes after the extended warranty runs out, how does driver #2 unload the thing at 100,001 miles without taking a bath? Where do all these subsidized off-lease vehicles go & how do they make anybody any money?
Before you jump to any conclusions, I strongly suggest you read a professional comparison between leasing and buying. Edmunds, as well as others, has a terrific easy-to-understand analysis. Here is the Edmunds link...
Buying vs. Leasing
Also, realize that "methods of financing" is not the main topic for this board, so we probably shouldn't post too much on the subject. But since there has been SO much talk about it here, I thought I'd at least give you a credible source of information. And there are many others as well. Good luck.
TagMan
I realize that we are already aware of some of the posters current financing methods, but let's let everyone officially speak for themselves.
So... are we currently leasing or purchasing?
I have purchased my vehicles.
TagMan
In today's paper a new mitsubishi Galant can be leased for $99. per month with $1600. up front, 24 month lease. Then ther is a new R class Mercedes for sale $53,000 msrp, sale price $39,000. I think the Mercedes is a demo.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
1 - Leases seem to COST more unless a business write-off makes it attractive.
2 – You are committed to a CONTRACT (rules) that can be costly or annoying to break.
3 – When I have a car, I don’t want a DEADLINE on my mind.
Bottom line:
I want to buy and sell cars and be in full control of the process. To me, buying is modular and I think I’d feel handcuffed with a lease. However I understand the thinking of those who lease and it seems there are some people who are very savvy about it to their credit.
Having said these things, I can’t tell you how much I hate buy/lease talk. If you can afford these cars I don’t think it makes a difference which method you choose. It just seems there’s a lot of bickering with no real consequence or advantage. But I don’t want to spoil the party. Heck, I hosted an astrology klatch several weeks ago.
;-)
So far, the purchasers are at a majority. While not a huge majority, nonetheless it is a majority, and that might be a bit of a surprise to some. We need a few more regular participants to weigh-in, and then our non-scientific survey will be complete.
Thanks for your participation,
TagMan
But this is not to say leasing is not beneficial, in fact if I didn't drive so much, leasing may be a more viable option for me. A person that loves to get a vehicle every other year and doesn't drive very often is the perfect candidate for leasing.
I know that when I buy, I'm losing money like mad. But when I sell, I usually get a fair shake. A gent over this weekend has offered me $140k for my S600, again, not close to the 151k I paid for it, but close enough.
In this class of car, you can't go wrong either way. There are plenty of you that are similar to me in that we always like the next big thing(ie: LS460 from the 430 and the S550 from the S500/430), and leasing can afford a person to be able to keep up with changing trends in these cars instead of being bogged down with a 7 year payment.
But if you can afford to buy'em and dump'em, then all means do so, just be smart about it.
I'm thinking seriously about taking the guy up on his offer(he's very legit- he bought my S65 last year) and using the funds to buy either of the following:
Jag XKR Conv.
MB SL550
911 Cab
AM V8 Vantage Conv.
Please enlighten me on what you fellas think of my now shorten list of possible contenders.
I average 21 mpg when I factor in local trips to the bank vault.
Where I live, 85 mph has been the average interstate speed for close to a year now. Looking forward to it creeping up to 90 mph. :shades:
I own my nightmare, 2000 Silverado.
I got pretty close to pulling the trigger on an S4 last year. I would have leased. My Mother moved in with us, and we put money in to restoring our garage apartment for her.
As much as I love cars, I would do it all again.
I tease her by calling her Fraudi [her name is Frana]
Jag XKR Conv.
MB SL550
911 Cab
AM V8 Vantage Conv.
Please enlighten me on what you fellas think of my now shorten list of possible contenders.
I think part of the answer lies in your choice of transmission. Also, I must warn you, a friend of mine recently bought an Aston Martin and the car has had too many problems.
If you are going for an automatic, I'd suggest the Jag or the SL. Tough choice. The SL is an icon, such a great good-looking fun vehicle, but the Jag is new and exclusive and also attractive. Better drive them both hard... very hard. That's the only way to really know.
But if it's a stick, the Porsche 911 Cab is a no-brainer. It's the winner by a country mile. Take it from me, this car just gets better and better. I'm absolutely loving my 911 Cab. Get the Carrera S or 4S, depending upon your preference, but get the S either way. You're a guy that appreciates power and performance, like me, and you don't want to leave any HP on the table with a 911 Cab.
No doubt, I hope you share the 911 experience with me. But if you don't and you get one of those other beautiful cars, I'll completely understand. Keep us posted, and if you want to talk about the 911, just let me know. I'll be glad to chat about it.
TagMan
I enjoyed my CS Cab test drive quite a bit. It had the tiptronic which is a very last gen autobox and has no business being in that car. Unfortunately that was the single 911 on the lot. Its not the car for me (too cramped, no trunk, still kinda cheap on the inside compared to the others, and the autobox is awful) but it was great fun to take one out for a spin. With the PASM system it didn't rattle my teeth like the 996 Cab I drove, and that engine with the top down sounds intoxicating.
How close are you to the AM dealer? There's a good chance you may have to stop by unexpectedly.
I would definitely lease with no questions asked if I could find my one of my favourite vehicles with the kind of deals described by Brightness.
We proudly present the 2008 Lexus LS 600h L Launch Edition, arriving in mid-2007. It features the world’s first full-hybrid V8 powertrain, is equipped with all-wheel drive and is based on the long-wheelbase Lexus LS, making the ride exemplary.
As for the amenities, they have to be seen to be believed. The lustrous paint is an exclusive Truffle Mica, the interior features sumptuous Alabaster leather-trimmed seats, and each vehicle will be numbered with commemorative Launch Edition badging. This rare luxury sedan even comes with a set of custom-made Italian leather luggage.
While all of the Lexus LS 600h L Launch Edition vehicles are special, the very first one off the line has a rare distinction. That’s because it was donated to raise funds for The Road To A Cure medical research foundation, and offered up on November 16, 2006. Lexus is proud to partner with Cedars-Sinai Medical Center to raise money and awareness for the fight against cancer.
The Lexus LS 600h L Launch Edition features:
The world’s first full-hybrid V8 powertrain
Mechanical all-wheel drive
Exclusive Truffle Mica exterior
Alabaster leather-trimmed interior
Rich black leather-trimmed instrument panel
Distinctive 19-inch chrome alloy wheels
Special Launch Edition floor mats
Numbered interior badge on center console identifying the vehicle as one of the first LS hybrids ever built
Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) rating [1]
[1]The Lexus LS 600h L is expected to carry a Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle (SULEV) rating.Lexus and Cedars-Sinai Continue on The Road To A Cure;
Winner of First LS 600h L Hybrid to Be Announced
TORRANCE, Calif., (October 26, 2006) – Lexus and Cedars-Sinai Medical Center will partner once again this year to raise funds for medical research. A fundraising gala, The Road To A Cure, will take place Thursday, November 16 at the Beverly Hilton Hotel to benefit The Board of Governors Center for Cancer Research at the Samuel Oschin Comprehensive Cancer Institute in Los Angeles.
Lexus, in its second consecutive year of participation, has donated the first of only 100 special 2008 Lexus LS 600h L vehicles, which will go on sale in mid-2007. The first 100 LS 600h L vehicles will offer unique traits such as Truffle Mica exterior paint coupled with Alabaster leather-trimmed interior, special alloy wheels, a commemorative interior badge, and a custom-made Italian luggage set. The donated LS luxury hybrid sedan, which features the world’s first full-hybrid V8 powertrain, will be presented by Cedars-Sinai in an opportunity drawing with all proceeds going to benefit the center's medical research.
“With cancer affecting the lives of millions of patients and their families, Lexus is proud to support Cedars-Sinai’s ongoing efforts to raise funds and awareness in the field of cancer treatments, and to extend its state-of-the-art care and treatment to thousands of patients each year,” said Bob Carter, Lexus Division group vice president and general manager.
Cedars-Sinai’s Board of Governors and Lexus anticipate that this year’s gala event, opportunity drawing and silent auction, with Wayne Brady serving as Master of Ceremonies, will generate significant funds to contribute to the progress already made in the field of cancer research and clinical trials. With nearly $100 million in donated medical treatment per year, Cedars-Sinai’s dedication to this cause is unparalleled.
LEXUS
Talking with a few golfing buddies and also keying in on a few Aston forums and websites, the Vantage is beginning to look like the Vanquish that I lusted for: A very sexy car that is prone to visiting the doctor due to a malfuntioning immune system that is inherit from it's forebears.
Knowing the XKR very well, and looking at Jag's recent jump in reliability, it's apparent that it's in the top of the running.
But the freshened SL and all-out fun CS 4 Cab have all the marbles to contend also. Will be at the MB dealership tomorrow to test the 550 and will drive the Porsche next week.
Tag, I'm sure you still can't wipe the grin off of your face when you drive your Porsche, and LG you've made me a believer on all fronts that Jag is really serious with the XK. And because of these reasons, making the right choice is as hard as ever, altho the $25k price cut on that leftover '06 $100k XLR-v is looking quite good right now.
1. Assume 8% discount is available for both lease and purchase; i.e. 92% MSRP as nominal purchase price, the buyer will finally catch up with the leaseer at 138 month mark (92 * 1.5); 1.5 comes from 27/18.
2. Assuming 100% MSRP; i.e. no discount available, the buyer will catch up at 104 months (100*27/26); 26 comes from 100-74.
At both 138 month and 104 month, it is safe to assume that the expected maintenance and repair cost during all the time since 50th month is equal to if not exceed the resale value that far down the line.
The argument is not about keeping a car for two years vs. keeping a car for 8 years. The apparently absurd reality of keeping a car for 27months costing less than keeping a car for 100k miles is due to the put option BMW is offering at 74% at 27month mark. If anyone is still having difficulty wrapping around this phenomenom. Think this way: if BMW offered 99% residual at 36month, would you still argue that lease is a waste of money compared to buying?? Of course not. A cross-over point takes place somewhere along the line when the residual is raised from a realistic 50% at 36 month to 99% at the same 36mo mark. If you grind through the numbers as I did, you'd realize that 74% at 27mo mark is already on the side of the cross-over point where lease makes financial sense and effectively becomes a subsidy. It's no different from borrowing vs. paying cash. In a normal situation, it would not make any sense to borrow if you have enough money to pay for the car because a normal bank charges more lending money than it gives taking deposits (that's how banks make money). However, when a mfr's captive bank is lending at 1.9% or 0% in an environment where risk-free interest rate is 5+%, borrowing at 1.9% or 0% while putting your 100k cash in a 5+% risk-free account makes perfect sense. Over 5 years, you'd be about $10-12k ahead. The key to understand this is the fact that mfr's captive financial arms are not in the business of making money on financing; they are there to help move cars, at fake MSRP's or "sale prices." Real banks lost hundreds of millions of dollars using ALG residual numbers; when the underwriters lose that kind money, I want to be on the other side of the trade :-)
I don't get that one. You're a Vette guy. Why would you want to spend even $75K on a slower, clumsier Corvette with a top that dumps water into the trunk when it rains?
The thing I've never been able to work out, though, is how the "system" makes money on the vehicles turned in off lease, with ridiculously high residuals. If they can't sell them for that, it seems that taking that big a hit wouldn't make sense.
1. Certified preowned program helps put a catch net under that deluge. In essence, the carmaker has to put in more effort to maintain the nominal resale price: i.e. resale price is no longer just the used car, but the used car plus a warranty that would have otherwise cost $2000-5000; wrap all that up in a nominal used car "sale." That's part of the reason why there can be a huge gap between ALG "estimate" of what the used car sells on average vs. what indidivudal sellers can possibly expect when they try to sell their own used cars (obviously unable to offer the buyer a CPO program)
2. The goal of the inflated residual is maintaining "sale price" close to MSRP. If a car is really worth only $30k, dropping down to $15k in 36 months like a normal car, inflating the MSRP by $10k to $40k while inflating the residual by the same $10k to $25k, the leaser would not face no substantial increase in payment (especially if interest rate is subsidized too). The captive financing arm will indeed take a bath when the car that really worth only $15k comes back in 3 years. However, that $10k shortfall can be offset by new leases "sales" signed that month. So long the sales volume is expanding, the ponzi scam can continue. It's typical of vendor financing. Eventually the house of cards always come down. However, until then, it's bonuses for every executive for artificially goosed "sales."
AND we're going to leave off the personal insinuations and wink-wink nod-nod off-topic comments.
A number of posts have been removed. How about we start this new year on the right foot. Let's keep in mind the topic here as well as the Rules of the Road - which are linked on the left for anyone, everyone, who needs a refresher.
Thank you.
1 - Leases seem to COST more unless a business write-off makes it attractive.
Depending on what the residual is. If the residual were 99% after 36 months, it would be obvious to everyone that leasing is more attractive. Is it still more attractive at 90% after 36mo? how about 80%? how about 70%? The devil is in the details.
2 – You are committed to a CONTRACT (rules) that can be costly or annoying to break
When you buy a car, money is lost the moment the car is driven off the lot. Are you sure that you can sell a used car at 74% MSRP after owning it for 27 months? Probably not. If not, then you have made a commiment longer than even 27 months. The reason why there is "lease penalty" is because less money has been paid towards the car to begin with. From earlier analysis, if lease is available with 74% residual at 27 month mark, a buyer of the same car would be losing more money if he tries to sell the car before 104 or 138 months, depending on whether the car is selling at MSRP or typical 92% MSRP. In fact, if one is not sure how long he/she is likely to keep a car, so long as it's longer than 1 year or so (perhaps a 1year old used car can fetch more than 74% MSRP), lease actually provides a put option.
3 – When I have a car, I don’t want a DEADLINE on my mind.
Lease time horizon is much shorter than time horizons for "break-even" point when these subsidized leases are floating around.
There is know way in hell, first off, that I'd pay 75k for a Caddy right now, especially one that is the worst in class right now. It's only calling card is the Vette's chassis, but even messes that up with those wussy tires whcih degrades the handling considerably.
It does however accelerate with authority, but a pre-'07 SL55 would make toast of it.
The XK I drove was not the XKR, but I was amazed at how quick it was. It had a transmission problem, however. It would not properly go in or out of automatic mode when I tried to use it manually, and the gears would not shift as they were supposed to when making the change. After some intervention it would suddenly decide to cooperate for a while, but then it would be tempermental again. That aside, it was still an incredible drive and I can only imagine the extra power of the XKR would be fantastic.
I'm a bit biased about my love for Jags, so I'm secretly hoping you get the XKR if you go automatic, but I objectively know you would be happy with either the XKR or the SL550.
Now, as I mentioned yesterday, if you go with the stick, there is no way you will not want the Porsche 911. It is the best of them and will give you so much fun in a nice size package. Not too bloated , but not too small. There is a surprising amount of room behind the front seats, and only a moderate amount under the front. Driver's seat is the most comfortable of them all, IMO. It is perfectly supportive and yet comfy. If you are into cruising, get the XKR or the SL, but if you are really into driving, get the 911. Sure, you can still cruise, but man, when you hit those nice roads, you'll understand why your in a 911.
Anyway, good luck with your test drives. That's ultimately what you need to do. We're just virtual guys on the internet, and you're the one spending the bucks. Whatever you do... have fun.
TagMan
So long the sales volume is expanding, the ponzi scam can continue.
Hmmm. . .just as I suspected. The only difference between Amway & BMW (in this context) is the price of the product. I guess this is yet one more reason to lease heavily subsidized vehicles -- those who own when the house of cards collapses are in an even worse situation.
Note to Pat -- I'm just tying up a loose end here. I'm done now, honest.
Note to brightness -- There are a number of leasing boards on Edmunds. Do you participate on any of them?
Pat
since a few members have indulged themselves in expressing their last opinions on leases I hope I can respond to the above comment (this will be my last post on leases)
Cdnpinhead,
Nope as far as reality is concerned BMW is not at all like a multilevel player like Amway.
Resale values (acutal used car prices) for BMWs are among the highest in the industry. The high residual are a product of those high actural resale values. Oh yes BMW subsidizes their residuals like any other auto firms. But because of the higher reslae values for BMW their residual are higher than other auto firms. The high demand for used BMWs are what makes high residuals possible
I forget who had one of these here, was it you LG?
M
I can still recall the 80s when visiting my parent's condiminion I was offered by their neighbors a 66 MB S Class or SE Class (cant recall since back then I didn't pay much attention to cars as I do now) that happened to be in great condition with low mileage for only a few thousands of dollars. I refused because I was scared about its maintenance --oh how I truly regret that decision. :sick:
You have a garage full of great cars to drive. Go get that beautiful Aston Martin. For the simple pleasure of advancing the art of art.
For art's sake blhemi. [I'm shaking you firmly by the shoulders now]
Drive your many other awesome cars, when the Vantage is in the shop.
The others are great. They have purpose. They are all awesome.
But the Aston is just on another planet. If Micheangelo painted a car on that chapel. If Deniro played a car, in a movie. If Scorsesee directed it. If Pam Anderson.....well you get my point.
In case I wasn't clear. Sense when is this purchase about what makes sense? Let the rest of the cars in your garage fill that roll.
Pam Anderson in Taxi Driver? I dont think so! But definitely Borat.
M
My '90 Benz was a 300E. My S-class was the next generation.