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Comments
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I am sure this would be of interest if you lived there but it is meaningless here. In the U.S. Lexus is King and Audi is the POS.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
You've got to be kidding. The LX was surpassed years ago by the Range Rover and recently by the new GL. The LX is an antique for those who can't be seen in a mere Toyota Land Crusier which is equally outdated.
M
CNN test drive
M
I would challenge you to just go out and drive the 3 of them back to back and then tell me what you think.
A couple of years ago I was all set to buy an ML. I drove one quite a bit and thought it was ok. Just before I made the deal I noticed the Merc dealer had a used LX of the lot. I had never driven one so I asked to take it for a spin. It was light years ahead of the ML. Quieter, smoother, much nicer interior, etc. In spite of having about 50,000 miles on the clock it blew the brand new ML away.
I hustled down to the Lexus dealer and bought an LX the same day. I've had it for 3 trouble free years now and plan on keeping it for several more years.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
My point being, the RX is going off of what most Lexus sales go off of, reliability, and some crazy notion of prestige.
The really only low rent part of the MDX is the steering wheel. Other than that it's on par with the Lexus IMO. Once again, it's the ride , and handling that kill the RX.
Lexus is content to sit back and sell cars that are Buick's with navigation. It's great, they are making a killing. But that doesn't make them interesting.
Who's that guy that sells the inspirational paintings with the golf course and the corny sayings on the bottom about life, and champions? That's Lexus...corny, and boring, without imagination, or talent. Now, because that guy sells a ton of paintings, does that make him the best artist? Yeah, according to some :sick:
The apocalypse is truly upon us when someone that buys a Porsche is a sucker
I think you're forgetting the fake wood in the MDX.
The apocalypse is truly upon us when someone that buys a Porsche is a sucker
dhamilton,
Porsche is breaking in very nicely. It is getting noticeably smoother. Thanks.
BTW, I've been enjoying your posts!
TagMan
Very classy term, POS. Impressive use of the forum. :lemon:
DrFill
Yeah that is sorry alright, a 10 year old truck that has to stand on reliabilty to be superior. Gee you'd think a truck that was developed in the early 90's would be the most reliable thing going. That is about all it has going for it at this point too. Range Rovers and GLs can't be given away yet the GL stomps the LX in sales! Gotta love the logic behind that statement. What is that, Lexus math? Didn't feel like looking up the RR numbers, maybe later.
A couple of years ago I was all set to buy an ML. I drove one quite a bit and thought it was ok. Just before I made the deal I noticed the Merc dealer had a used LX of the lot. I had never driven one so I asked to take it for a spin. It was light years ahead of the ML. Quieter, smoother, much nicer interior, etc. In spite of having about 50,000 miles on the clock it blew the brand new ML away.
Now if you're going to make a case for the LX you at least need to keep your Mercedes of choice (to knock) the same from one rant to the next. The ML is not the competitor to the LX, the GL450 is. Lightyears couldn't only be used to describe how far behind the LX is compared to its real competitors at this point. Trusty and reliable yes, dated and antiquated, also yes.
M
It would be nice if you lived up to your name and kept a foot in reality.
The Audi competes with the S-Class like the Washington Generals "Competed" with the Harlem Globetrotters.
Just because you build V10 and V12 models doesn't mean anyone cares, or will buy one. The US doesn't care.
Since NOW what C&D says is gospel, they just said the S8 is really not much better than the A8, so take a pass.
Not that the US public needs help passing on Audi....
Constsnatly bringing up foreign sales is great. But many minor leaugue ball players hit .400 until they made it to the dance, where they can't even stay on the bench.
Win a Heisman, get cut in Training camp, seen it all before. Yawn! :confuse:
DrFill
TagMan
M
What would anyone want with a true SUV besides comfort,good looks, and reliability? You gonna run slamons in the thing? Your old performance rant just doesn't work too well on these vehicles.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
yeah, I took the shortcut and posted the pic from the Porsche website cause it was identical to mine in every way...
BTW, I should compliment you on your recent posts. Very realistic in the middle of an illogical and chaotic hornet's nest.
TagMan
TagMan
Yep, just like you said that they can't be given away all the while knowing (or at least you should) that the GL easily outsells the LX, makes about as much sense. You should talk about empty rhetoric with nonsense like that concerning sales.
Again, you'd lose that bet. A neighbor had a LX450 and then a LX470 and they were just big ole trucks that rode and drove like the antique body on frame dinos that they are.
What would anyone want with a true SUV besides comfort,good looks, and reliability? You gonna run slamons in the thing? Your old performance rant just doesn't work too well on these vehicles.
Well for one the LX is no looker, and obviously many look past the reliability because they buy other similar SUVs in greater numbers. The answer to your question is as clear as day, the LX is an outdated. No one said anything about performance, but I can't see anyone not wanting a SUV that can get out of its own way or one that doesn't drive like a "truck". The class has moved on and the LX, Navigator and Escalade are of a dying breed. You must be the last one to realize this.
I can also tell you that I've been in a Range Rover too, and it has without a doubt the best interior going in a luxury SUV, IMO. The look of it inside and out make the LX470 look like the outdated appliance that it is. Yet with such a poor reputation for reliability it remains for many a hugely desirable luxury SUV. When I look up the sales numbers I'm betting the sales (since that is what you Lexus guys use to gauge what is "best") will prove it to be more deseriable then the LX470. Get your reliability excuses ready.
M
Right, even Cadillac and Lincoln have updated their dinos more often over the years.
M
Thanks. I trying to stay out of this Lexus vs. Audi scramble, but this about the LX being best in class was too irresistable to debunk.
M
Probably the most successful and longest running car in history was the VW Beetle. They had it down pat from the start so didn't have to change much, just like the LX.
Not all change is for the better. I am sure those Indians thought they were getting a great deal when they sold Manhattan for a few beads.
Mercedes used to be pretty good cars back in the 70's and 80's. Now look at them. They are always at or near the bottom in quality these days. Many changes are made to cheapen a product so the mfg. can save money and make more profit. No so with the LX. It's in the big leagues and the rest are bush league wannabes.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Whoa, does this apply to the folks who buy the re-badged LX470 over the equally competent (except in prestige/status) Toyota Land Cruiser?
Now you're saying that change (in order to stay at least competitive) is no good because Lexus has been content to let the LX470 be overrun by the compeition? Wow that is some kind of dedication to Lexus!
M
What would anyone want with a true car besides comfort, reliability, low maintenance, a classic design and fantastic fuel economy?
That is exactly why our quarter century old MB300D is not defunct. But my question to you is why the heck would anybody buy a spanking new SUV when it really is an old SUV? Hefty discounts? I certainly hope so!
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Once again, I'll ask you to look up some facts before slaming a Mercedes. The GL starts at 55K and can run up to 70K which puts it in the LX470's and the HELC league. Now if you're going to hide behind a 4K price difference to protect the LX from its true MB competitor fine. Weak defense for the LX, but ok.
What is your excuse to disqualify the Range Rover beyond its reliability? You surely can't say price.
M
Reality raised a great point on how the A8 has won many interational awards.
And what is your argument? Who cares about what happens in foreign lands. Whatever happens beyond USA is irrelevant. That xenophobic person by the name of Lou Dobbs from CNN may agree with you but it does hurt your argument.
It's quite unfortunate that you have such a view since the LS460 just won the "World Car of the Year Title". This title was awarded by the most distinguished auto journalists in the USA and in foreign lands. Winning a C & D or MT review is small fries compared to "The World Car of the Year Title". Despite the participation of foreign journalists I do think this award is worth something, dont you think? :P
I only mentioned the ML because I drove the ML and the LX back to back and exposed the ML for the cheap pretender that it was. Actually the 3 year old LX and the new ML were priced about the same at that time, but as I said there was really no comparison at all. A Major League HELC LS VS a Bush League Tin Can ML.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
I've wondered about the collectibility of the Veyron, too. As expensive as it is, I think it's value will go south like senior Ohioans headed to Florida for the winter, deep and fast.
No way. The Beetle was an iconic design that improved in other ways. The LX is not an icon by any stretch of the imagination.
TagMan
To rip apart posts is most enjoyable. Audi has always been seen as a upscale manufacturer at least for the past 2+ decades, long before Lexus came along. Remember the Audi 5000? That was around '83 and that was surely a luxury car. Second, Audi has had a foothold in EUROPE for DECADES. Do you seem to forget that?
"The same thing has been said about Cadillac and Lincolns several decades ago. Lexus products are 21st Century Cadillac products that primarily serves American taste for plush rides. That is the real reason for the lack of interest in Lexus cars beyond North American borders. The Japanese themselves lack interest in Lexuses."
Hardly comparable. Cadillac was never world class, and GM has always designed cars just for the US market. 450K+ worldwide sales and you call that lack of interest outside the US? Let's see currently Lexus cars are sold in a handful of countries, whereas Audi's are sold in just about every country. When you look at that and the fact that the bulk of Audi's worldwide sales are made up of A3's and A4s which are decidely more downmarket outside of the US and there you got the additional sales of Audi. Quite frankly Audi's 900K vs. Lexus 450K worldwide sales is not at all impressive(maybe to you it is). If Lexus starting pushing a $20K to $25K car with hubcaps like Audi does, they would be selling a few hundred thousand more Lexus' worldwide also. Yeah I know it's hard to get for yourself but it's the reality===Audi's numbers are inflatted by stripper A3's and A4s(a4's here start at 30K, elsewhere Audi A4's start at much less) meanwhile Lexus' cheapest car worldwide is a $30K IS. Common sense pretty much dictates when you price a car at $20K you would capture more sales, as that is a closer pricepoint for more people to afford in developing markets.
"Nope! Germany never ever imposed trade quotas or hefty tariffs on Japanese cars like USA did in the 1980s. Audi thrived not by nationalism but by competing successfully. Audis are loved by Europeans not because of nationalistic reasons(the French, Russians and Italians do not consider themselves German) but because of the "
Huh...yup. Did I ever say the gov't's are imposing tarriffs? I said the PEOPLE. Big difference. it's in their blood. Ever read a article from ANY european car mag? The only cars even they like are basically all European! Whereas, American's have no sense of protectionism, they will buy anything that's good.
"So what? An A3 and an A4 are premium priced cars in their segments and they are premium priced because they are worth it. And Lexus is soon going to introduce an A3 competitor. Will that dillute the image of a Lexus LS or a LF-A? I dont think so!"
PRemium priced in their segment??? What segment is that?? A A3 starts at around $20K in the US? That means elsewhere it's around a 18K car in USD. The point is, ah duh, you are comparing a whole lot of $20K A3's being sold against NO $20K Lexus' being sold!!! Duh, that's like comparing Camry sales to A4 sales and saying "the Camry outsells the A4 by 400K to 20K units therefore Camry rules". Yeah I know you won't get it. fly by.
And if you haven't taken business class yet, yes cheaper models dilute brands and more sales dilute brands, just like 300K lexus sales in the US is reaching dilution stage.
A prestige brand starts loosing prestige as sales increase. Business 101. And a $20K Lexus will definately dilute the Lexus brand even is the US, even if sales do grow.
I get it, the RX isn't known for great handling. Newsflash: RX buyers *dont care*. The RX350 is quick in a straight line, its comfortable, and its easy to use. Thats all its buyers care about.
Must've been next to the lines where they reported that the LX470 "was the best SUV ever created, so good in fact that it NEVER needs updating".
HOWEVER, with that said, the 65% of women that buy these things scoop'em up as fast as Lexus can turn them out, my opinion doesn't mean squat.
My fav. SUV in this class, as you may know, remains the Cadillac SRX followed closely by the new X5. Sure, the Caddy is technically a tall wagon, but it has all of the right moves, and Caddy has made crucial updates and fixed the sunroof problems, it's biggest demerit.
Well if you (and your family) were going to be dropped in the middle of Africa and you could have one SUV, all the gas you would need but no other hope of any repairs or replacement parts and you had to drive for 1500 miles thru the back country, what would you choose?
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Perhaps you should move yourself to a land where people are not as manipulated by marketing as in the US!
The biggest the crock that has ever been pulled on humankind is the product called Mercedes! How people will flock to it just because of the 3-pointed star. It wasn't long ago when I walked into a Benz dealer and I pointedly asked the dealer why I should buy a MB over a Acura, Lexus, or BMW. His one and ONLY response....."because it's a mercedes". That says it all! See, now that's manipulation! Oh but I guess the average american is just stupid and you must be the only one that is above manipulation by the media! or is it that you're the one being manipulated by intangibles like the false prestige of a 3-pointed star on the end of the hood or trying to cram down everyone's throat that they should be buying a BMW because handling & performance is all that matters? It seems more like the manipulation is being done on you.
So, oh wise one, tell us what is the long history of the uS people when it comes to consumerism?
Oh BTW, it is well known american's are basically immune to advertising so where we are more manipulated than other cultures is beyond me. maybe it is the other countries where marketing is manipulating their minds.
Ramble on.
That statement is too darned extreme, lg.
Let's just all take an honest look at some of these interiors and decide for ourselves.
Here's the last of the Acura '06 MDX interior...
And here's the all new '07 MDX interior...
This is the '07 RX interior...
And for reference purposes this is an '07 Honda CR-V interior...
And also for reference this is an '07 Land Rover Range Rover interior...
I don't see that RX interior being anything significantly better than either of the '06 or '07 Acura interiors... certainly not the way you describe it... and, if anything, the RX interior looks like it is overflowing with its share of plastic, although not quite as much as the Honda CR-V interior, and it even shares the same interrupted center console design with the Honda CR-V.
The Land Rover Range Rover interior is in a class by itself, obviously.
TagMan
I wouldn't want any of them for myself. The only one I could even consider driving is the FX45. Even then though, I'd be saying to myself "why did I buy this over an M35x?" The X3 also isn't half bad. My wife can have it though, I'll stick to the Jag
Speaking of the Jag, Top Gear just came back on BBC 2, and this week they tested the XKR against the V8 Vantage. It was amazing to see the XKR pulling powerslides and drifts with the rear wheels smoking up a storm, all while keeping the buttoned down composure of a BMW M car. Very different from the XJR falling all over itself and getting spanked by a CLS55 on Fifth Gear. On the race track, the V8 Vantage could not pull away from it. Clarkson loved it.
What isn't plastic on the Acuras? By the way, my wife liked the interrupted center console on her old RX, it gave her a place to put her purse. Lexus knows their target demographic.
The fact is that the MDX can hit almost $50K, and it has Chrysler quality fake trim in it. Thats inexcusable.
Page 69 of the March edition quoting Mark Giles:
"The S8 felt big and cumbersome on the street. The S6 isn't that much smaller than the S8, yet it felt way more urgent, both in a straight line and around corners. I kept thinking that I'd rather have a regular A8 swaddled in all the luxury Audi offers, which, it turns out, can easily add up to $25,000 worth of goodies".
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Just looking for a little balance here.
TagMan
That's a very good question, Tag!
A lot of my respect comes from quality breeding, or heredity. Mercedes DOES get a lot of respect from me, BUT, BUT, they have been around since forever, have the biggest name in the lux business, charge (by far) the most, so I expect the most from them, sometimes we get it, sometimes we don't. But you can't say they don't put a lot of effort and innovation into their vehicles.
The Benz' I like are the SL and the GL.
BMW has earned an incredible market position, and is iconic in it's reputation, but I can't find any car less hospitable to use.
I was just at the Houston Auto Show Saturday, and sat in the 328i. I got in the passenger side, and I noticed the cupholders, scattered along the dash (why?), and the window control fully blocked by the door handle. I'm not in the car two seconds, and it's already pissing me off!
The 550i Manual/M5 would be my Lord and Savior, if iDrive wasn't forced upon me. And it had a Lexus interior. IDrive is the World's best deal-breaker. There cars and trucks may drive great, but they need to develop a bedside manner. I'm not a robot, I got feelin's!
Feelings......
Porsche is great, but they aren't the prettiest belles in the ball. But I dig the new Cayman! That's sweet!
Audi basically was at Planet Zero when Lexus got here, just coming out of the 60 minutes issue, and has been left for dead by Lexus since. So I have no respect for Audi. Their surveys aren't exactly 1st-tier either. VW has crap quality scores, so I can't expect much better from Audi.
Jaguars at least look expensive.
Caddy/Acura/Lincoln/Infiniti are 3rd-class at this point.
It's not that I pine away for a Lexus, I'm not really a luxury car kinda guy. But they have a way about them, the force is strong with this one.
I saw it back in 1989, and I still see that today. The power, the mission, the execution. I said it when they started, "This company is goin' places!"
They haven't taken the gloves off yet. So I back them to the hilt. the deserve my complete respect and admiration. Toyota hasdone a wonderful job. there really is nothing else to say about Lexus.
Unless you work for Audi. :confuse:
DrFill
Glad to hear that... I like them, too, Doc.
Regarding the Bimmers, I was under the impression that iDrive has been revised and is quite improved now. No?
And, the 3-series... you were pissed off in two seconds? Gosh, I've been thinking about that upcoming 335i convertible. Should I be concerned?
Jaguars at least look expensive.
They're a bargain if you ask me. Reliability has improved, something you care a lot about. And simply... gorgeous cars, especially the new XK. I think lexusguy and blkhemi will have no regrets over the long haul in their Jag XK's.
Porsche is great, but they aren't the prettiest belles in the ball. But I dig the new Cayman! That's sweet!
I agree. Porsche is great. And perhaps not the prettiest, but still great-looking in their own right... looks that will last and not fade away. The Cayman does have some nice new design touches. You are right about that.
Well, all-in-all, interesting post. I am glad that I asked you and I appreciate the time you took to answer. I really do think you are too hard on Audi... at least too hard on Audi in this day and age. They deserve more respect than you give them, IMO. I would say that about VW as well. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate concerns, but I think you have thrown out the baby with the bath water.
Lexus deserves credit for what they have done. I agree with that, but I think I witness a tendency to overlook their weaknesses too much... sometimes you give the impression that they are above faults of their own, and that they are somehow vastly superior to anything else out there. In terms of reliability, perhaps, but even those statistics are getting tighter all the time. So, how else are they superior?
TagMan
BTW, thanks again, Doc.
As the great Sgt. Hartman once said "I am hard, but I am fair."
Audi is what Audi is. You mentioned winning international awards and all. Lexus has done this many times over, here and abroad.
Winning surveys is nice, winning awards is nice, winning comparisons is nice. Lexus has done all of these.
But it's where the rubber meets the road that counts! It is all about the Benjamins.
Audi has been here long enough, had more than their fair share of chances to do what Lexus has done, in a decade or so, and they have failed.
Maybe they're putting the resources/energy into covering many different sales regions. Maybe this produces a rosier international portfolio, and superior corporate balance sheet. That's fine.
But if you want to work HERE, close! Coffee is for closers only!
Lexus is superior in sales, service, luxury, quality AND CUSTOMER KNOWLEDGE. That's more than enough. BUT their weaknesses are fairly obvious, but they are attacking them with due dilligence.
Styling and driving excitement have been called into question, and Lexus has done a solid job, at least with the styling. The IS, GX and LS are quite stylish, TME.
The GS needs a new identity, and the next SC will have a sharper edge, hopefully. But I still like it, even for a GT.
The IS needs a stick in 350 and IS-F form. There is no excuse for this. I'd go so far as to say it would be Best in Class with a manual, like it's predecessor. C&D said as much, back when I trusted their opinion.
DrFill
“There really is nothing else to say about Lexus.”
Chirp
Lexus is #1
Chirp
Lexus is #1
Chirp
Lexus is #1
Chirp
Lexus is #1
;-)
That statement is as bad as saying that Lexus has never built a luxury vehicle. I realize that there is a certain level of subjectivity involved when judging interior layout and design but this statement is way off IMHO.
Chirp
Lexus is #1
Chirp
Lexus is #1
Chirp
Lexus is #1
Chirp
Lexus is #1
;-)