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Comments
Have always heard and felt that they put their money in the interiors. Especially Audi, which has just the right mix of aluminum, wood and plastic.
I guess the powertrain has to take the hit. There is no free lunch.
No manufacturer has figured out how to do it all for a price.
Don't know about Lexus, but i think Hondas have thinner sheetmetal.
The Asians have been doing this for some time.
The public doesn't seem to notice or care until it needs to be repaired.
I believe GM was the first of the domestics to go with thinner sheetmetal.
In '77 with the redesigned/downsized Impala/LeSabre/Bonneville/Fleetwood,etc.
Chrysler made a bid deal about the reintroduced early 80's Imperial having extra thick sheetmetal.
The new SSR has thicker sheetmetal but weighs 4700 lbs!!!
b4z,
Yep, the Japanese have traditionally used thinner sheetmetal. VW/Audi should be able to get past their infamous window switch and transmission issues as they have either, or are going to switch suppliers for both as new models arrive. The new A8 uses the same trans as the Jaguar XJ & S-Type, and the BMW 7-Series, among others. I actually got a chance to talk to a ZF engineer at the Detroit show this year. They supply something to just about every European make nowadays. ZF along with Bosch are the German brands key suppliers.
M
The Acura is listed as "Honda HSC"
M
I hope that the cars sell well. It's nice to see a good-looking American car.
The Jaguar I saw was black, and looked great! I just wish that my town had a dealership.
http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/amg/e/cars/kleinserie_s65.htm
M
My car has about 3500 miles on it, and it is still a joy to drive. It still feels like the perfect blend of luxury and sport. It is a nice paradox to enjoy the sporting side of the car, along with the smooth luxurious side of the car.
The only issue has been a minor interior trim problem with the leather on the console. It appears that some early '04 cars have had a minor leather adhesive problem which is easily repaired. This is the only bug that I have encountered.
The system employs what is called "active steering" to keep drivers from having to countersteer to correct a potential spin when the wheels lose their grip.
It works by employing steer-by-wire software that automatically sends steering input to the wheels to make sure the car stays on course. Instead of waiting for the car to get out of control, it begins to modulate steering when traction loss is detected...it corrects the skid before the driver notices traction loss which makes countersteering unneccesary.
So let's try this - from Automotive News: TOKYO 2003: Lexus finally gets a design of its own.
Note that registration (free) will be required to access it.
Is that an SL or S55?
How do I email you?
Scott
The LS430 was at the top of the heap with 184 points and the S430 was at the bottom with 163 points, trailing even the Phaeton. The Jag XJ8 in second place with 182 points helps to provide clear interpretation that the reviewers favored ride as a driving force in this one. All the normal words about fun to drive factors were in there as usual but this time the reviewers favored the type of things I look for in a lux sedan over those things. This does not - in any way - mean I change my viewpoint on the autorags nor do I agree that an LS430 is 21 points higher than an S430. It just illustrates that the reviewers will favor what they seek in a car just like buyers on this board will. If the car provides it than that is the car that is best for the person or that gets the highest rating in the comparos. There really is no "generic" best as far as I am concerned in this group when each car plays to a different strength or set of strengths.
With all that said - I did get to ride in and drive my buddy's 2004 euro LS last weekend - one that he had picked up a few days before. The car is virtually the same as my 2001 inside - except that he was able to show off his blue tooth technology and satellite radio (which is awesome) but the ride and handling is better than ever. It's amazing to me that as good as any of these cars are when you buy or lease them that the auto mfrs. continue to improve them noticably within a few years. I couldn't imagine a car riding better than my 2001 LS but the 2004 with a sport suspension rides noticably better and even quieter than my 2001.
ljflx,
Nice way of saying I told you so. I'm not surprised here due to fact that all those cars are newer and more powerful and Car and Driver's rating systems has changed to something similar to a Road and Track format. This cuts out some of the personal preference stuff that used to go into their tests. What all cars were in the test, and what was their final placement? Where did the 7-Series finish (if it was there)?
Speaking of the Phaeton, the V8 it was announced will start at 64K and change. The W12 between 80-84K for the first few launch edition models. What did Car and Driver say about the big V-dub?
M
Anyway - this is not at all an I told you so. It just shows the different strengths of the cars and that the audience of fans and buyers will always side with the car that provides what they want the best. The "my car is better than yours" and "this car doesn't even belong in the group" stuff is ridiculous.
" The "my car is better than yours" and "this car doesn't even belong in the group" stuff is ridiculous."
Well you know I've never said that about any of these cars, I only stated my preferences and why. I think Automobile stated something like that about the LS430, but obviously C&D disagrees with that.
syswei,
Yes there will be a SL65, it should be officially introduced at either the Detroit show in Jan, or the Geneva show in March.
M
M
It seems very clear now that the LS will be completely redesigned in the summer of 2005. Another article from Automotive News says that Toyota wants to revamp the entire Lexus lineup when Lexus is launched in Japan in August 2005 with L-Finesse-designed cars that have no visual links to Toyotas. Any further push into Europe will be delayed until the Japan launch of the new cars.
In an interesting twist of irony, Lexus does not want to sell any North American Lexuses as rebadged Lexuses in Japan (that's why the current Lexuses were not on display at the Tokyo Auto Show, only the two L-Finesse cars). In other words, the RX 330 will not all of a sudden become a Lexus in Japan in 2005. Again, they say they want a whole new lineup designed from scratch.
My guess is the RX, ES, LX, etc. will stay as North American Lexuses only until they're redesigned. At that time they'll get the L-Finesse treatment and be sold in North America, Japan and Europe. I wonder if that means names like Celsior, Aristo, etc. would be dropped when the new L-Finesse replacements come. We'll have to wait and see.
For example I see that Car and Driver had the LS430 and XJ8 tied for best ride.. Contrast this with Consumer Reports (not a true auto authority) stating that the XJ8 ride was quite inferior.. and the LS430's superlative. The same two cars.. with different interpretations. Oh well.
The fact is that all of these luxury cars are pretty damn good. Each has its own appeal, whether it is ride, performance, status or amenities...
By the way I think that the Audi RS6 is a very cool car. It is a very hot performance vehicle. However, it is a high priced performance sedan rather than a luxury car. In my mind, it appeals to folks that might be M5 fans, rather than those that are looking at luxury sedans.
An interesting sidebar is the complaint against the lawyers on the nav screens and against iDrive in particular. Many of us on the board said it was overkill and needless before the new 7 even arrived. The techies at BMW got far too carried away with making the simple tasks so difficult. But C&D condemns it and thinks it will make the resale values on the 7 series take a beating. I think they are 100% right on that one.
As far as resale goes, the 7 has always lagged. That said, none of these cars are going to be a picnic to own once they age, they all have a certain level or electrical complication that will be very expensive to maintain years and miles down the road. Even the Lexus can't escape this once it ages.
What do you all think of the Phaeton?
M
As has been stated by many others, VW does NOT have the pizzazz, history, heritage and clout to retail $60K+ cars in the US car market. How many people will look to buy a $64K V8 or $80K V12 Phaeton ? At that price level, there are significantly better more name-recognized cars than a VW. I own an LS and would never consider a VW at a luxury car price range. Even a nicely optioned 2004 LS can be purchased for less than that. Now tell me if anyone believes a VW is in the same class as a Lexus ! And if VW's can be priced that high, whatever happened to Audi, their supposed luxury line ?
Meaning: VW's Phaeton, while a nice car, will not succeed in the US market.
Heck Mercedes has electrical problems before it ages.
If they want to have a chance they have to make the type of direct strike Lexus made in 1990 and then roll out more models right away. But if they do that then you have to wonder why Audi is here. I just don't get it.
Enjoy!
Just sold a 2002 Lexus 470. She has a BMW 330 conv. and Im buying a new 'touring' car. So the top 3 were Lexus LS430, BMW 745, Benz S430/500.
We love the exterior of the BMW and its ride, we even blindfolded ourselves to overlook the awful rear end design they came up with. It was the I-Drive, however, that was impossible to swallow. Out of the question, especially if you have ever used the systems in a Lexus. As I said, she is a tech-phobe but she took my last Lexus on a 45 minute drive and had it all figured out without lifting the manual. So I took a drive to Lexus and took a look at the LS430. I was astonished at the superb job they have done in everything, (styling still a little stodgy but a lot better than it was). AND, for 15k LESS than the
BMW. So I was about to write a check to a dealer, and my wife begged me to look at the Benz first. When I saw the S 430/500, I was immediately (and very) emotionally hooked. What a GREAT style with that rake on the front end. It is, imo, the best looking car on the market at any price. However, once I got into looking at the reliability, and in particular the nav/communcations/environmental systems, the Lexus beat it in every single area. (They tie in comfort, the Benz a little stiffer for a sportier ride) I learned my lesson from my BMW what it is like to try and navigate yourself around in the European designed nav, twirling dials and pushing it every few seconds, even for a simple task like changing form FM to AM. And, Benz is traditionally, a couple of generations behind Lexus in tehcnology. E.G., how about Bluetooth technology for Lexus. Outstanding! Anyway, we've decided to go with the Lexus, and then realized we were also saving about 20k in the process (from the Lexus price I was able to locate). I can throw a heck of a party for that much money. Last week I got the current issue of Consumer Reports...they happened to be comparing these three cars (and Audi). Their findings were almost exactly as our impressions. Hope this helps. Let me hear what you decide.
Another question - is the Lexus easier on the gas? Between a 2003 Rover and the 750 we need to buy our own gas station it seems. The kids cars even drink gas but not like ours!
Your wife sounds neat! Please keep us posted as well with any car ideas. My husband has always loved BMWs until the redesign - so we're in uncharted waters around our house...Thanks! Jamie
Always buy what YOU like ! Having said that, I am an LS owner, and so will be biased if I were to suggest an LS over the BMW or Merc. So I won't. Rather, I'll answer your question on mpg. My '99 LS, with 75K miles, uses premium 91 octane, and does 18/20 mpg city/hiway.
If I were you - and I am not, since I strongly prefer a manual transmission - I would go for a new E55 over the RS-6. The new E55 is a significant advancement over the previous version, not just in horsepower, but in handling. It's still not as crisp and fun to drive as my 6-speed M5, but it's likely to be a much better investment than an $80k+ Audi come resale or trade-in time.
Consider this "friendly" advice from someone who had a 930 Turbo as a daily driver.
A sidebar to the story asked different enthusiasts if they would prefer the Phantom or the Maybach. The preference was for the Rolls. But a banking exec gave the reason as the "revolutionary design combining sportiness with maturity" which - per him - fit today's banker. Interestingly enough the review contradicted him as it made it clear that the Maybach is the sportier car. A funny sidebar was asking a valet at the Peninsula hotel in Beverly Hills which one he would park in front. His answer was neither. Reason - He takes care of the guest not the car. So I guess a guy in a Honda Accord who tips bigger gets the preferred parking spot.
The reviewer's conclusion was the Maybach was the better car but the Rolls was the bigger statement of success.
The more I see of the Maybach the more I realize that it is - from an outside design standpoint - too much of an extended S-class. It should have been designed more as its own car. The Rolls is indeed a striking car - particularly from the side - and has very much its own DNA, at least in styling.
michael_mattox,
You're missing the point. Point being, is that expensive cars like these are going to cost as they age, when something electrical fails. Yes, the reliablity of a Lexus is well harped upon, but if you think that none of them ever have a problem once they age, you're not dealing in reality. Have you not seen the posts on these boards concerning the replacement of gauge clusters and nav systems on older Lexuses? The bottom line is that none of these cars are for the 2nd or 3rd owner short of cash.
ljflx,
Yes its a confusing and as much as I love VW/Audi products, a risky strategy. VW is said to want have a model in each segment of the market. Their (not mine) logic is that people don't shop/compare Audis with VWs. Not completely true, but the degree is arguable. Yes, the Phaeton is overweight, the European press has complained about this for over a year. I see reliability and the total dealership experience (sales, service etc) being the biggest problems for the car.
The Phantom rides on metric-sys/run-flats so yes they do work out to be the largest passenger car tires on any car in the U.S. I've said all along the biggest issue with the Maybach was it's exterior and it's overally closness to a Mercedes S-Class, inside and out. Bad news is the current bodystyle is going to be around for a while (7-years).
M
VW Phaeton: (reviewer - Ralph Kisiel)
On its introduction to the US market....
"Instead, VW officials here and in the US often find themselves defending their decision with dealers and the news media to build a premium sedan with a VW badge"
on European sales....
"Through July VW had sold 2,574 Phaetons. The automaker had expected annual global volume to be as high as 15,000 units"
on the success of this car....
According to Frank Maguire, VW's VP of Sales and Marketing, America, states: "The challenge is not the product .... it will stand up to anything out there. The challenge is: Will people buy a luxury Volkswagen?"
Touche..
Lexus LS430: (reviewer Jerry Garrett)
"Pluses: Pleasant rumble of V8, luxurious feel, to-die-for stereo, retained value, quality.
Minuses: Very few, if the price of admission to the club doesn't scare you"
Aston Martin's DB9: (reviewer Jerry Garrett)
The article was titled: "Aston Martin crafts planet's coolest car"
"The DB9 is such a quantum leap from the DB7 that the company skipped right over the option to name it the DB8"
"It is powered by a new tweaked version of the 6.0-liter V-12, offering 450 horsepower and 420 foot-pounds of torque..... The run-up from zero to 60 mph should only take 4.7 seconds with the manual...."
All of this for $150K (coupe, 6HP26), a bargain considering the old DB7 retailed for $235K.
All in all, pretty good reviews. There was also a line-up reviews of future releases from Merc, Audi, Alfa Romeo, Aston Martin, Bentley, Ferrari, Jaguar, Lamborghini, Land Rover, Maserati, Maybach, Mini, Porsche, Volvo, RR, Saab and VW.
Merc's going to have even more variants in its lineup, such as CL65, SL65, and CLK55, and the stunningly beuatiful SLR. That car is gorgeous, but at sticker price north of $400K, I suppose it gotta be, lol ! I dunno if Lexus will add variations to their line-up anytime soon. They sure need more trims to make it more interesting...
The reviewer made some mistakes though. The DB7 never stickered for 237K, thats Vanquish territory. The DB7 is a 160-170K car at best.
Add Maserati to that list of stylish makers too. The Audi dealer here also owns and Maser dealership and they had a Sypder parked among the Audis today. Man what a car, so stylish and tailored! Only 97K! It had all kinds of custom options and leather wrapped this and painted that, right down to red brake calipers and interior-color-cordinated leather-wrapped roll bars. Its the kind of car that says the hell with surveys and such. Can't wait to see the Quattroporte.
"The challenge is not the product .... it will stand up to anything out there. The challenge is: Will people buy a luxury Volkswagen?"
I think they would if VW had a reputation in place for better reliability and dealer service. Even the reliability thing hasn't slowed down the Euro brands that don't top the JDP surveys, but their dealerships are in much better shape than VWs.
Mercedes-Benz is going thick on the top end. Between the CL, SL and S-Class cars and all their AMG variants and the SLR, they'll have 10 cars with about 500hp or more! Madness. One of the things I like about Mercedes is their depth of product of which no other brand has. They compete with Bentley (Continental GT), Aston-Martin (DB9), Porsche (911), with either the SL or CL and yet they compete with all the "regular" brands below. A full service brand. This is what VW wants to do, but I must say I think Audi would do better on their high-end.
M
There is no debate which car is Most likely to be relatively trouble free and which is almost guaranteed to have problems.