High End Luxury Cars

merc1 · April 2004

Well I've always stated that MB is my favorite brand, but not my favorite car in every segment. If I were shopping in your class there would be only MB and Audi on my list, but in the 30-35K segment there are at least a dozen good or great cars competing and Mercedes' C-Class doesn't really wow me like say an E, SL or CL does. I'm looking at the G35 Coupe as the best alternative to any of the German cars in the price range. I seriously thought about the Acura TL, but couldn't stand the styling, otherwise that would be the car for me. Me no want a 3-Series. Everyone has one and a new model is due for 2006. The Saab 9-3 Aero is interesting, but seems to have gone up in price since I last looked at them; it stands at 38K per a walk-around on the local Saab lot earlier this evening. Too much money and I'm thinking GM DNA is present. No thanks. Audi's A4 is another possible choice, but only the 3.0L model, the 1.8t model is a slug. I'm thinking Audi, MB or Infiniti, the latter two I'm waiting to see their facelifts (G35, C-Class).

If passion is overstated hype (NOT!) then these reliability and now sales sermons are just the same.

As far as "everyday" people not knowing about Wards, what does that prove? I wouldn't expect them too because this is the same lot that will read a CR and JDP report and take it as gospel and never think past it, and for a many of these everyday people that works. They're happy with their boring appliance-like cars. Just because more people know about Newsweek and Times doesn't mean these two are automobile savvy or some type of automotive authority.

oac,

I see you've decided to ignore the obvious facts because they don't support any of the current rhetoric. When shown the sales figures to dispute the notion of the 7 and 5 Series being "tank jobs" you skip the subject. This is what is called unsubstantiated hype.

"Two new designs and sales are down?"

Sales are down compared to what?? Is it that you don't want to see the sales chart or don't understand it? The 5-Series is UP YTD over the previous car. You couldn't be more wrong about the 5-Series. The 7-Series is in its 3rd model year and it is only off by 707 cars YTD compared to last year. What car doesn't have a sales drop in its third model year? The SC430 has done the same, yet.... You're (hyping) stating that the 7-Series sales drop is a crisis, yet the SC430 has done the same in its 4th model year, but that isn't a crisis? No it isn't, even I wouldn't call it that. What is happening is natural and it happens with every car sold except for cars like Ferrari etc.

If you really want to see a sales drop watch the GS as it gets eaten alive by the E-Class, 5-Series, RL, M35/45, A6 and STS, which all are either on sale or go on sale before the new GS does in....gasp...a year from now. Timing is everything; someone might want to let Lexus know this.

"Merc1 touts MB's higher prices as an excuse why MB sales should not be an issue. I point out that MB sales in the US are down at a time when there are far more affluent buyers than ever before. In California today, 1-in-500 earns $1M or higher per year. That is a huge market for so-called marque brands like MBs. So why is MB sales in decline despite the apparent higher purchasing power of more affluent buyers ?"

So what? California is but one state and can't carry the entire sales mantle for Mercedes-Benz or any other brand. It is also foolish to think that just because there are more people with money that they're going to want to show off this wealth by purchasing more Mercedes-Benzes. A totally new product is the only thing that will keep sales for MB or any other company at their same level as a year ago, especially when the previous year was a record year. Why am I even replying to something so ridiculous?

Secondly, their biggest seller the C-Class is going through a model changeover. I don't know why this is so hard to grasp. Yet MB remains in either 3rd or 4th place in the sales race despite having the highest priced cars of any mainstream luxury brand. Yeah what a failure they are because they aren't able to sell as many tarted up Camrys or tall wagon thingies that sell in the 30-40K range, yet most of MB's products are priced at 50K or above. Yet Mercedes-Benz is supposed to win the sales race. I don't think I've read anything so far off in left field on this board in quite a while.

Since you're sales theorems are nothing but hot air you'll turn to the MB's corporate situation. Guess what, I don't like it either, but it really has nothing to do with their sales performance so far this year.

"GS, SC and IS sales are not where Lexus would like. The GS has had no redo in years, the SC still sells pretty well, and the IS was not appropriately positioned in the market. Lexus is addressing both the GS and IS. Now, we'll have to see what happens if the coming redos of these two models will effect sales and improve Lexus' bottomline. I predict that BOTH will be successful, at least much better than the market perception for the new BMW redos of the 7 and 5 brands."

Excuses, excuses. The GS has been a failure since the first model back in 1993 it has never sold up to expectations. Yet the failure of a 7-Series you keep incorrectly talking about debuted in 2002 and beat the previous 7-Series' best year! FACT. The IS was half-baked and everyone knows it. The SC430 blew right past Lexus' sales estimates for its first year quite easily yet in it's 4th model year has slowed down. This is the same thing as the 7-Series. The same exact scenario, yet BMW is in trouble and Lexus isn't. This isn't a crisis to most people here, but a natural thing that happens over time, but if you're making a case against BMW you'll play this up as a crisis, though other cars are in the same exact situation.

I notice you use the words "market perception", when talking about the 5 and 7-Series, yet the cars are selling, so this perception you have isn't based on anything factual. The press has harped about BMW's new styling and idrive, yet just like you guys tell me when a Lexus takes a beating in the press or comparo....the press doesn't buy the cars and they don't have to live with them.....so what they say doesn't count. Yet here for the sake of building a shaky case (at best) about BMW, market perception makes the 5 and 7-Series failure yet they've outsold the previous designs. WOW. A contradiction at each and every turn in the Lexusworld. Double standard hype at its best.

M

merc1 · April 2004

You and others are harping about Lexus' sales performance, yet you conveniently ignore that the whole Lexus franchise is basically being pulled by 3 vehicles...the ES, RX and to a lesser extant the LS. The IS and GS are show room decorations, the SC430 is being outsold by the 30K+ more SL, and the GX does ok for it's segment, but reading this board you'd think that all of Lexus' models are star players and outsell competing vehicles when they don't. Now prestige and image have now come up. Before it meant nothing and was all in a Benz or BMW owner/fans mind, yet this very same thing is supposed to overcome the fact that the average BMW or Mercedes is thousands more, in order to help them sell more cars. Makes sense because prestige can account for the price difference, no matter if you can make the jump ($$$$) or not. Very Logical.

You mentioned California, funny you should do so. Guess where the largest market for high-end Benzes is in the world outside of Germany? Newport Beach, CA. Now tell me since you're the expert in sales trends, at what point does the market become saturated and sales drop? Mercedes already has the California market at the upper end. Don't believe me? Check out the tuner Brabus' website, they've set up shop in two places to cater to high-end Benz owners, one in Florida and the other in California because of S, SL, and CL sales trends in those two states.

BTW, the actual BMW numbers:

Model March 2004 YTD-2004 March 2003 YTD-2003

5 Series 3,873 10,328 3,660 9,492 ---->up
7 Series 1,418 3,925 1,467 4,632 -->down 707 units

Yep BMW is in deep trouble. Please.

M

merc1 · April 2004

MERCEDES-BENZ USA
Sales -- March 2004

Model March March Monthly YTD YTD Yearly
                    '04 - '03 - % - 2004 - 2003 - %

C-CLASS 4,825/ 7,266 -33.6% 15,407/ 17,567 -12.3%

  E-CLASS 4,971/ 4,456 11.6% 12,802/ 12,725 0.6%

  S-CLASS 1,572/ 1,805 -12.9% 4,379/ 5,250 -16.6%

  CL-CLASS 265/ 328 -19.2% 658/ 925 -28.9%

  SL-CLASS 1,430/ 1,028 39.1% 3,884/ 2,520 54.1%

  CLK-CLASS 1,925/ 1,900 1.3% 4,821 / 4,298 12.2%

  SLK-CLASS 379/ 554 -31.6% 957/ 1,266 -24.4%

  M-CLASS 2,307/ 2,330 -1.0% 5,832 / 6,616 -11.9%

  G-CLASS 142/ 170 -16.5% 419 410 2.2%

  GRAND TOTAL 17,816/ 19,837 -10.2% 49,159/ 51,577 -4.7%

In even deeper trouble than BMW. They have 4 models that are up this year YTD, but their oldest models S, CL, ML and SLK are all down. This doesn't make sense. A new SLK has been shown and goes on sale in Sept. This couldn't possibly have anything to do with sales dropping off. Funny the 2000 LS400 dropped like a rock right before the 2001 LS430 arrived, but there was no crisis there. Hmmmmm. The C-Class is going through a model change that happens early next month. That couldn't possibly have any affect on sales. The CL and S after being facelifted for 2003 and posting better numbers than in 2002 shouldn't possibly slow down this year. Makes sense. The ML being the exact same age as the Lexus GS shouldn't see a sales drop either. Makes sense. The Lexus GS selling a whopping 69 GS430s in March shouldn't worry anyone at Lexus, I mean really the GS is only facing about a 1/2 dozen newer entries (like the ML is with the Touareg/GX470/Cayenne/X5 etc) so sales of the GS should remain the same, but MB is in trouble with the ML. Makes sense.

Mercedes and BMW are finished, while Lexus goes for "exclusivity" with the GS430 which is rarer than the VW Phaeton, Audi A8L, Infiniti Q45 and M45, and Acura RL all of which are considered sales duds, but the GS430 isn't. The age of the GS430 couldn't be the reason for this. No way. These other cars are just "better".

M

designman · April 2004

BMW dealers used to pound their chests with the fact that they didn't have to discount. Those days are over. But we don't see the heavy discounting parsed in the already less-than-impressive sales figures. Although BMW is considered one of the most successful auto makers, they are losing lustre in a changing world. It's much too early for this to sink in, but I believe it is starting to.

The 5-series came out of the gate with discounts. One buyer already reports $3k off retail on a 525. The 7 has undergone heavy price lopping. If the summer brings discounting equivalent to or close to last year's and sales are buttressed in this manner, will sales be considered a success? In my book this is not a feather in the cap of the noble German.

merc1 · April 2004

I'm not saying the car is a smash hit or that it is re-writing the rules of the segment, but to call it it a failure based on sales numbers is bull, especially when those numbers say otherwise. Everybody discounts to a degree nowadays on certain cars withing their respective lineups. I find it very funny that certain Lexus' have never sold worth a darn and yet they aren't considered failures.

I personally don't like the 7-Series either, but this hot air blowing based on sales figures is utterly ridiculous. I can understand if a person doesn't like a certain car, but they could at least get the facts straight or get some that supports their theories/views because the sales argument doesn't.

Now that you mentioned discounting we'll have to read about how Lexus doesn't discount. Right.

M

maxhonda99 · April 2004

merc1,

For maybe the second time, I have to agree with you about Benz and BMW being in trouble. They are clearly not in trouble. BTW, the new SLK finally looks stunningly beautiful.

merc1 · April 2004

Alright enough is enough! That makes 2 posts in the past two days! Who is this using maxhonda99's user id? LOL.

M

maxhonda99 · April 2004

merc1,

merc2 broke into my user ID and had been rampantly posting posts in favor of MB. Now that I am back in control, let me say Mercedes sucks. just joking.

michael_mattox · April 2004

"Passion" is a subjective term (Hype)

"Reliability" is an OBJECTIVE term. (fact)

Merc. Just curious...What are the Sales expectations for the GS this year??? How many do they expect to sell?

Prestige...When a prestige Luxury name like Mercedes sells cheap cars...Does that damage their Prestige?

Sales SC and 7 series...To use your own arguments since the SC doesn't sell much anyway...does it really matter if their sales drop a little...Not much lost there. If a High profile car like the 7 series loses sales..Well...That is an important development..Don't you think?

Once again Hard numbers for sales or sales decline is not hype..it is fact.

Merc...Yes LS 400 sales dropped off when the LS 430 came out...THEY WEREN'T MAKING THE CAR ANYMORE, THEY DID SELL ALL THE 400S THAT THEY HAD.

maxhonda99 · April 2004

michael_Mattox,

"Yes LS 400 sales dropped off when the LS 430 came out...THEY WEREN'T MAKING THE CAR ANYMORE, THEY DID SELL ALL THE 400S THAT THEY HAD."

I don't quite understand the statement. maybe a rephrase is in order.

I think what merc1 meant was the LS400 sales in 2000 were low throughout the year. And that it was basically due to the imminent release of a redesigned LS(LS430). Basically it's sales dropped on 2000 because alot of prospective LS shoppers wanted the LS430 instead and sales also decreased because the product was getting old(less people wanted a LS as opposed to other newer designs such as MB S-class).

"Merc. Just curious...What are the Sales expectations for the GS this year??? How many do they expect to sell?"

I would say 12K to 15K units.

sv7887 · April 2004

Hi All,
I'll just add my two cents to the discussion..I'd agree with Merc that MB and BMW are not in serious trouble. I'll qualify that with a "Yet" however. You can't ignore the bad press both automakers are having right now. Reliability is still a major part of the decision making process. IF left unaddressed, this is going to start to hurt their bottom line. Anyone have profit/loss data on Toyota, DCX, and BMW?

You could say what Reliability to is MB, Styling to Lexus. It's a problem no doubt. Merc is correct in his assessment of the Lexus product line. The GS, SC, IS, and LX are older designs. The latest generation of Lexus designs are encouraging however. I like the streamlined look of both the new LS and RX. The GS concept still does nothing for me..It's highly subjective isn't it?

I'd like to see Lexus develop an AMG style line, no more of this half hearted L-Tuned nonsense. The Company has been around since 1990, so they've had long enough to get their act together. Also, they ought to turn the SC back into a real sports car, not some retiree cruiser. Ditto for the IS and GS lines.

A sidebar..Which of these cars have the best exhaust system? As a big fan of V-8 engines, I always enjoy a satisfying roar with the turn of the key..The LS430 disappoints in this respect, the old 92 LS I have makes more of a roar when started..

SV

maxhonda99 · April 2004

sv7887,

Well, Toyota definately has the best bottom line. I don't think anyone can argue that. They have a huge cash pile they are sitting on.

"The GS, SC, IS, and LX are older designs."

The SC is not too old, just looks old! It's as old as the current LS. The LX is a older design that is still selling extremely well.

Every carmaker has it's successful product lines, the small percentage of product lines that make up a huge proportion of overall sales. Lexus has the ES, RX, and GX making up about 60% of it's sales. BMW has the 3-series making up 45-50% of it's total sales volume. Mercedes has the C-class and E-class making up about 50% of total Mercedes sales.

"A sidebar..Which of these cars have the best exhaust system?" Are you just talking Lexus?

I'll tell you what, the recent Infiniti's sound great, the G35 Coupe and FX35/45.

jrock65 · April 2004

""Merc. Just curious...What are the Sales expectations for the GS this year??? How many do they expect to sell?"

I would say 12K to 15K units."

The GS sold about 2000 units during the first quarter, and that pace is decreasing, which is understandable w/ the new one coming in March '05. I figure they sell about 7000 GS's this year.

Currently, the E sells about 4000 per month, and the 5 sells about 3500 per month.

By fall of 2005, I predict (sales per month):

E: 3,400
5: 2,800
M: 2,200
GS: 1,800
RL: 1,600

anthonyp · April 2004

If you are thinking of a new car, regardless of make, and you are going to buy one-not lease- try to anticipate the new technology.. If you guess right, you will have a couple of extra years of use without a large depreciation. I luckily baught my wife a small suv that turned out to be a great hit, and when she then went to trade for the clk it really had held it`s value, more than any car I have ever seen.. I enjoy your posts Tony

oac · April 2004

I do not wish to engage you in a long diatribe that you'd like (and probably enjoy). Won't MB want to be in Toyota/Lexus' shoes in either or ALL of the following:

#1 in sales
#1 in market capitalization
#1 in cash on hand
#1 in reliability (5+ years in a row according to JDP)

Enviable positions to be by a relatively young brand, isn't it ?

And just so that we are clear, I did not suggest, nor imply, that MB and BMW are DEAD or dying, all I have suggested (unless I am misquoted) is that the SIGNS of a decline are stating to show, just like designman also surmised. I provided my justifications as follows: For MB, US sales position have changed from #1 to almost #4. And for BMW, two new designs and not much uplift in sales compared to expectations.

merc1 · April 2004

See how maxhonda99 and sv7887 got the point about models and sales trends, but no.... You and oac keep harping about sales of MB and BMW declining yet when I dare point out that Lexus has the same problem with one of their duds you all post the same thing over and over like in post #4752 because that's all you know, even though it doesn't pertain to the conversation.

Sales decline is everything when it comes to MB and BMW and yet the sole reason has to be reliability, but when Lexus (with their industry leading reliability), can't move certain models their have to be other reasons; old product, specialty cars that don't sell much etc. etc., but these same reasons couldn't possibly apply to MBs and BMW's in their 3rd model year (7-Series). Unbelievable, but typical. Golly Gee production of the 2000 LS400 was slowed down intentionally, but the 2004 C-Class can't possibly be in a decline of the same sort due to a face lifted 2005 model coming. Makes sense to me.

"And for BMW, two new designs and not much uplift in sales compared to expectations."

Oh, but before the car sold less than before, but now they had a small uplift. What a difference a sales chart makes when you actually look at it. Tell me what BMW's sales expectations for the 5 and 7-Series? You do have this information this right to make that statement right?

What are the sales expectations for the GS this year? As many as they can sell, seeing as though the car is a dead duck. Like a company really will release or boast about a sales goal for the last year of production. That is so ridiculous, but BMW passed their stated sales goals for the 7-Series back in 2002 the car is now a failure now because it hasn't sold at the same level 3 model years down the road. That is so silly.

If you're asking this question about the GS' sales goals this year to imply that they are selling up to expectations or even decently you're only fooling yourself. Nobody wants to sell 69 units of any model in this class. Since the SC430 is dropping and is a specialty car it doesn't matter. Let MB show a sales drop with the SL and see how this board reacts. Crisis for days.

"Sales SC and 7 series...To use your own arguments since the SC doesn't sell much anyway...does it really matter if their sales drop a little...Not much lost there. If a High profile car like the 7 series loses sales..Well...That is an important development..Don't you think?"

Total confusion. Where did I ever say a sales drop wasn't anything significant because a particular car is a "specialty car" or because the particular car doesn't sell much anyway? That is your excuse not mine. Every mainstream luxury car maker has an ideal sales figure for every car they produce. The SC430 only costs 60K, not a whole lot of money for that class of car, seeing as though all of its European competitors cost more, yet it is a "specialty" car and shouldn't sell much. BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar don't see their "specialty" 2-seaters/2-door models the same way. Don't you realize that with such a small market niche that the SC430 competes in visibility is very important and every sale counts just like it does with a high-end sedan. Do you think Lexus won't address the SC430's situation with a facelift and possibly a SC300 V6 model only to not worry about loosing a few sales. I know you don't believe that. Of course they want to sell more!!!

The 7-Series has lost 707 sales YTD and it is a development, but the GS has lost way more and that is no news. See a double standard here? You could argue that the GS is much older and on its way out and people are waiting for the new model etc, but you can't see this as the case for say the SLK, which is also dropping like a rock this year in anticipation of the new model. Is the SLK excused for being a specialty car?

Before the host says it I'm done with this round. When other Lexi fans see the point I know I'm not exactly crazy, but keep preaching about how reliable the slow selling GS and IS are.

I would have like to have seen the posts if this board were around in 1993 when Mercedes only sold about 60K cars for the whole year in the U.S., yet the E-Class now moves about that many units per year all by itself. Edmunds' Town Hall server would have been choked with posts about MB's demise.

anthonyp,

Good points and advice...thanks. I could never lease, I drive way too many miles per year for that.

M

merc1 · April 2004

"For MB, US sales position have changed from #1 to almost #4."

They managed to get to number 1 for one year, what in 1999 or 1998??? They did this on the back of the ML SUV which back then was a big deal for Mercedes-Benz because they never sold one here before. One year at #1 because of SUV and they are supposed to maintain that momemtum and compete with a company that makes fifty percent of their sales on SUVs and the other 50 percent with much cheaper cars, mainly a 35K fwd model. Right.

Dont' get me wrong here. I congratulate Lexus for their market success in the SUV area, the Germans are still clearly behind here. Notice how I don't even dare suggest that this is Lexus' fault.

But how come if MB has increased sales each year since 1993 (from 60K to over 200K) in this country, with higher prices than everyone else, a 4.7 percent drop in 2004 is seen as the beginning of the end? If anything with such a high priced lineup MB's market share grew in proportion to what could be reasonably expected of a brand with much higher priced cars, in other words they're going to always get a smaller share of the sales pie. I wonder how many over 50K cars (still the bulk of their models) Mercedes has to sell compared to Lexus tearing up the under 50K segment with the ES and RX for sales to be a wash. What am I thinking money is no object and sales are sales everyone can afford to buy-upwards.

I wonder why Ferrari doesn't outsell Porsche or why Maybach doesn't outsell Bentley? Price certainly couldn't have anything to do with this.

M

footie · April 2004

Merc1

If MB built better cars and built cars better, they could sell them for less money and be more profitable. It's the way smart companies in competitive marketplaces win.

MB prices are higher than Lexus (and Infiniti and others) because their cars cost more to produce, sell and service. Their production processes aren't as efficient as Toyota's nor their ability to manage their supply chain as good.

They have a broad product line with low volumes in many of the lines. The engineering costs are higher, the production volumes lower, the learning curves slow to deliver improvements. This results in the higher defect levels that impact production and the resulting poorer dependability, reliability, serviceability and availability impact their costs and customers.

* Higher defects during production raise direct costs
* Higher defects during warranty raise costs
* Higher defects requires more marketing money to prop up the decade old superiority image, now no longer true

Mercedes doesn't sell their cars at today's prices because they want to, they do it because they have to. Their entire marketing campaign is designed to make you think you are getting something you aren't. "Like no other" is right, better said as "No two are the same".

Their profitability is lower ( and the Chrysler-Jeep drain no help ). Their R&D is tighter and narrower and this makes them more dependent on suppliers for new technology, which is widely available to others. The technical edge is gone and often bleeding edge, not leading edge.

I don't think that MB is 'dying' but they are in serious trouble for the first time here in the U.S.

They haven't adapted to the competition yet and it shows.

ljflx · April 2004

I'll just give you my view of what OAC and others, including myself are saying.

I think any hint of a decline of the German marquees is exaggerated into the companies are going out of business. I haven't read where anyone has said that or even hinted at it. But in the financial community you are always looking for the tip of the iceberg as an indicator of things to come. I think all that people see here are a lot of tips of the icebergs. The business model built in the past may not be so sustainable going forward - at least not at the success level of the past. Look at all the clues out there. The bulletproof cars built are gone as is the mystique that both brands build bullet proof cars. The improvement in quality is slowest among all car brands. The resale values are falling faster (in percentage terms) than any lux brand out there. That means the upfront prices as new cars can't hold much longer and there are plenty of indications of that. Heck - I just saw a $77k S430 lease deal advertised at only $100 a month more than my $65k LS430 and it wasn't specific to any individual car. I saw $77k BMW deals advertised at the same rate as my $65k LS430. Lux brand dealers don't have come-ons - at least not in my experience. Now throw in a fierce competitor like Toyota who is well capitalized, very profitable (record earnings just made) with a rare and very strong Balance Sheet for a manufacturer. They build cars very efficiently and may have a big market lead in the next gen car engines (for the US market at least). Add in a rapidly recovering Nissan (in the hands of a European which is ironic)and a Honda that has always been strong and you see alot of competitive warning signs out there. On top of that throw in a Chrysler that has to be rebuilt and will utilize a lot of resources and may uiltimately drag down the famous lux brand name. I just read stories on the Hemi (a car I like by the way except the rear from the side has an old Eldorado look to me) and couldn't miss the cross jabs and some comparisons to the E-class let alone the instances of part sharing. Remember Lexus was built on top of Toyota whereas Chrysler is being rebuilt under MB. Big difference in perception to the market. Finally you have the strength of the Euro to contend with, the first signs of falling sales (we'll see if it's real or a false alarm in the coming months) and the media coverage of CR's car quality - whether you accept that or not - it's there.

Anyway my point of all this is that there is not one tip of the iceberg out there but many. This has nothing to do with enthusiastic cars bult today and everything to do with the business of selling them and continuing their domination. Will the business stay healthy enough and capitalized strongly enough to maintain that edge or not. We're not talking about the next 2-3 years here but the 5-10 years after that period. Personally I don't think so and I think BMW is stretching themselves too far these days. But that's just my business opinion. Sometimes tip of the icebergs are overstated and sometimes they are not. As I said before it will be interesting to see this play out. But the long and short of all this is that even when you hit the iceberg you don't have to sink. Look at IBM.

By the weay - I never made it to the auto show. Buiness issues on Friday (the day I really wanted to go), a more complex tax return than I expected and family functions took away all opportunitities. I wanted to see that futuristic Audi sports car and also drive the Jeep Grand Cherokee on the indoor hill but I'm afraid you can't always get what you want.

michael_mattox · April 2004

I am sorry I just couldn't get through your very long messages, But I did see my name mentioned so rather then respond directly to whatever you said I would like to make what I believe is a constructive observation.

Back in the days when Mercedes was the unchallenged king and body styles remained the same for years and frankly Mercedes cared less about pretty and more about functional.

Back in those days Mercedes advertising centered on safety and safety innovations....They were the leader and probably still are..But now the marketing objective has changed to the beauty of the sheet metal and the cars prestege (which once was understood and didn't need to be spoken by the company)

Back in those days when I couldn't afford a Mercedes I always wanted one...

P.S. Merc. did I read somewhere, that you are a tech for mercedes is that correct?(Just curious)

lenscap · April 2004

There was a short article in Automotive News about Lexus. They are experiencing the rare combination of having both buyer conquest and loyalty rates rise at the same time. And both of these have been rising for the past three years.

Loyalty (Lexus vehicles traded in on other new Lexus vehicles):
1Q04: 48%
2003: 44%
2002: 31%
Note: The article confused me a bit because it also put the loyalty rate at 54%.

Conquest (Buyers who came to Lexus from another brand):
2003: nearly 70%
Every luxury brand except Saab is seeing a greater percentage of its customers depart to Lexus versus three years ago.

merc1 · April 2004

"MB prices are higher than Lexus (and Infiniti and others) because their cars cost more to produce, sell and service. Their production processes aren't as efficient as Toyota's nor their ability to manage their supply chain as good. "

I agree with all of this, but that wasn't what we were talking about here. My point for the last couple of days has been that a few on this board are hyping small sales losses as the end of BMW and Mercedes-Benz or like they are in some type of galactic trouble. Yet in the same post they'll come up with all kinds of excuses as to why certain other brands (Lexus) have similar problems with certain models, but those logical reasons couldn't possibly apply to Mercedes-Benz or BMW models of the same age and/or going through a model change over. One thing of interest here, how is MB managing their "supply" chain incorrectly? They do it the same way any other luxury car maker does. In what way is Mercedes different? Please explain this.

Everyone knows that Toyota is the production efficiency king. Everyone knows that it costs more to produce cars in Germany for the reasons you mentioned, and some others you don't. Even when Mercedes topped these reliability surveys in the early nineties they still cost way more than the competition, so all of the cost is not sheer reliability and defects.

"Their entire marketing campaign is designed to make you think you are getting something
you aren't."

Really? So all of the innovations that Mercedes has and their beyond government safety standards, and in many cases much more variety doesn't account for anything. Right. Lexus' marketing slant is that of a knock-off Mercedes with their LS and a knock-off BMW with their IS and probably the upcoming GS. Just because you don't see anything more in a Mercedes doesn't mean it isn't there.

"I don't think that MB is 'dying' but they are in serious trouble for the first time here in the U.S."

Really? I would call serious trouble back in the early nineties when Lexus started gaining ground and Mercedes sold less than 60K cars a year for a few years. That is serious trouble. Now if you're basing this assessment on the reliability situation then your statement has more merit. If your statement is based on the sales drop of the first three months, then it is nonsense like the other posts of similar ilk.

I agree they do have a reliability problem and the perception of the problem is getting worse. What I disagree with is the buzzards-are-circling mentality on this board in particular.

"Their profitability is lower ( and the Chrysler-Jeep drain no help ). Their R&D is tighter and narrower and this makes them more dependent on suppliers for new technology, which is widely available to others. The technical edge is gone and often bleeding edge, not leading edge."

I agree the Chrysler arm is a drain, but they may be starting to turn that around too. Maybe. They have a ton of new product on the way. However, tell me if MB's technology is so supplier based (like a lot of Toyota's isn't) then why is that Mercedes manages to always beat Toyota to the punch (specifically Lexus) to the market with it? I took the LS430 until 2004 to acquire certain features the S-Class back in 2001. This fact doesn't jive with your statement.

ljflx,

Well not to get too deep into your post, but your posts for the most part have always had a logical/factual base, others don't. I always pay very close attention to your business minded posts and really can't take issue with anything you've just said. My problem was (in part) with people talking about sales losses for certain models (5-Series) when in fact it wasn't even true.

You and footie shouldn't think for a minute that I don't see a problem with Mercedes and to a lesser extant BMW. The reliability issue will only get worse before it gets better. Why? Because most of these surveys look back 3 years and for 2004 they'll be looking at 2001 models and for 2005<>2002 and 2006<>2003 so it is going to take some time for MB, BMW, Audi, Jaguar, Land Rover, and whoever else is deemed unreliable, to pull themselves up.

I'll be the first one to order the closing of the water tight doors and the manning of the lifeboats.

M

michael_mattox · April 2004

The answer to you question (below) is simple..Lexus perfacts the innovation before they put it in their car. A SAFTY INNOVATION WITH an ELECTRICAL PROBLEM EITHER BREEDS "FALSE CONFIDENCE" OR TO THE WELL INFORMED OWNER...A FEELING OF DOUBT AND CONCERN, Will it work, or will it not..Is my family save? BEING FIRST DOES NOT ALWAYS MAKE YOU BEST.

"then why is that Mercedes manages to always beat Toyota to the punch (specifically Lexus) to the market with it? I took the LS430 until 2004 to acquire certain features the S-Class back in 2001. This fact doesn't jive with your statement."

oac · April 2004

You know, you are master (and maybe commander) of misinformation and double talk. Don't make me regurgitate evidence here for you. It will take far too many pages and will cause edmund's to shut down its server(s) for overload....

Suffice to say that it is refreshing to hear you finally admit that MB has problems. Isn't that what we are all saying here ? So all those excuses you have been given all amount to, what, squat ?

Business-minded and technical-minded rationales have been given by many people here, but you find excuses around them. You are redeemable afterall... This is a good sign. Next, we'll get you to admit that Toyota/Lexus execs are far better auto business managers than MB/Chrsyler execs are. They could buy out DCX if they want to, and turn their fortunes around quicker than the Germans can I think. Well, won't that be a hoot !!!

edspider1 · April 2004

What feature did MB have in 2001 that Lexus just got in 2004? I'm suprised because back in 2001 it was between an SClass and LS because I thought the LS had more advanced features than the LS. The great NAV system was one of them. I thought the S interior had too much plastic.

Kirstie_H · April 2004

Don't forget tonight's member-to-member chat - it's open mic night, so come and discuss whatever's on your mind.

http://www.edmunds.com/townhall/chat/townhallchat.html

6-7pm PT/9-10pm ET. Drop by for live chat with other members. Hope you can join us!

kirstie_h
Roving Host & Future Vehicles Host

pat · April 2004

There is no need to get personal here. You don't have to agree with everyone, but if you can't find a way to post a contrary opinion without disparaging the person with whom you are disagreeing, then you need to not post at all.

The sniping at other members has to stop. I want to say this publicly because it keeps coming up here, but this necessarily needs to be the end of this conversation since it is off-topic and obviously disruptive.

Comments about my thoughts on this subject may be emailed to me, but they should not be posted here.

We need to keep our conversation focused on the cars and not on each other.

Thanks!!

pat · April 2004

And I've also removed some questions and speculation about where a Town Hall member works ... I'm sure if that member wants that information to be public, he is aware that he can add that information into his profile.

If he does not want it to be public, then the rest of us need to consider it a private matter and let it be.

In any case, that has not a thing to do with the subject of our discussion, so could we now get back on topic?

:-)

ljflx · April 2004

Apparently we both cross-shopped the S in 2001 as well. There were two or three options I remember the V8 S-class cars having that the LS lacked (as options) in 2001. One was the ABC system and that is still the case. I would bet though that 90+% of all S-class cars are sold without it anyway. It's a fairly expensive option and there were one or two S-class board posters at that time who had opted for it and were having crazy things happening to them because of it. I remember one guy finding his car in a different position (level wise) in his garage the morning after he pulled in and the car was naturally un-drivable. This happened to him a number of times and MB couldn't seem to fix it or even find the problem. My MB sales rep told me not to consider ABC at the time I looked and after reading that guys posts later on I knew why. Another option was Keyless-go which Lexus of course now has and which both of us like very much. When I shopped in 2001 I was intrigued by the Keyless go system but none of the inbound S-class cars had it nor did any of the showroom cars. When I asked why I was told by the MB sales rep that they were having problems with it and had put a hold on it until the cause was found and cured. The third thing might have been the timeport (if that was the name) phone. Naturally the other thing they offered was a 12cyl engine if you went the S-600 route. Lastly - MB may have had more airbags than Lexus. I do know someone who totalled an E-class (the guy fell asleep at the wheel) and walked away unharmed. It was really the steering wheel air bag that saved him (so he would have been fine in most cars) but nevertheless I'll never question MB's commottmment and leadership in this area. I haven't kept track of Volvo but they were well known in the past as the mfr. at the head of the class in safety.

On the other hand Lexus had the single based DVD nav system, the ML stereo and the 6 in-dash CD system. MB had answers to all three but they were way short of the Lexus benchmarks.

ljflx · April 2004

And I agree wiith your comments on S-class plastic. The interior of the S-class - as a whole - left a lot to be desired for an $80k+ car. Misses the mark badly as far as I am concerned. Maybe MB will incorporate some Maybach goodies. That car has the best interior I've ever seen. But in sub $150k cars Lexus, Jaguar and Audi are the kingpins for me right now. I do love the antique walniut wood on the black leather custom/ultra LS.

merc1 · April 2004

Ok since you feel the need to shout then I guess you have the proof on one of Mercedes' safety innovations that had an electrical problem to back up your claim. If you don't then you're only doing more of the same.... Please tell me what safety innovation that Mercedes came out with that didn't work or that had electrical problems, that Lexus later perfected. I'm just dying to hear about it. I suspect this is yet another in a long line of bogus claims. Facts please.

oac,

"You know, you are master (and maybe commander) of misinformation and double talk.

This from the same poster that didn't know anything about the sales numbers harped on so much in their theory. Ok. What was that about the BMW 5-Series selling less than it did before the re-design?

" Isn't that what we were all saying here ? So all those excuses you have been given all amount to, what, squat ?

I and others have always said that MB and BMW have problems, you on the other hand went on and on about sales figures that once proven by the actual numbers, as opposed to hype, proved that you didn't have a clue about the 5-Series in particular and your claims were based on the 5 and 7-Series being "tank-jobs". Now when asked what this claim was based on you kept talking about sales, which didn't prove a thing other than an actual increase for the 5-Series and a 707 unit decline YTD for the 7-Series, hardly the end as you so loved to harp about. Face it you were dead wrong about the sales numbers and then (like your most recent post) you turn to corporate matters, since your doomsday theory wasn't supported by the sales numbers. Now you're talking about who is the better manager. More reaching for another angle it seems.

I never said at any time on any board that Mercedes, BMW or Audi don't have problems, I objected to basing these claims sales numbers for 3 months and then on top of that not even bothering to check the numbers to see if they supported that theory, which they didn't. The others (footie included) here actually presented factual evidence of a problem. I'm done with it.

M

oac · April 2004

Merc1:

So you posit that I am wrong about my previous postings on the direction of MB and BMW ? You want facts, eh ? OK. Well, take a look at the following links and see for yourself. I leave you and others to judge the facts, rather than rants....

Dec 2003 status report:
http://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/Publications/autodata_releas- - - - - es/120303/120303auto.htm

As of Feb 2004 YoY comparo:
http://www.andersoneconomicgroup.com/Publications/autodata_releas- es/031604/figure1.pdf

Market Trends report:
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/sales6_20040106.htm

Just so it is clear where the TRENDS are, here are a couple of quotes from the above link:

Honda had the biggest year-over-year gain, 8.2 percent. Fellow Japanese automakers Nissan and Toyota followed closely on Honda's tails, with formidable gains of 7.4 percent and 6.3 percent, respectively. All picked up market share

Within that segment, the Cadillac brand is making sales gains on Mercedes-Benz. The GM luxury brand finished the year with 216,090 cars and trucks sold, compared with Mercedes' 218,717. That is a difference of more than 2,600 vehicles, a gap that has narrowed from more than 13,000 vehicles in 2002

I could pull a lot more links for you, but I think I made my point. BMW's 5-series sales growth was 8.8% over 3 months. Yipeee ! Happy ? I surmised they dipped, you showed they grew by <1,000 units over 3 months. We'll have to see by year's end who is right.

merc1 · April 2004

I could find even more links about sales figures for days and days. So what? Until you realize that sales fluctuate for different reasons (which you dismiss) then your point is moot with me. Until you factor in price-, product age-, hot new models+, model change over-, along with reliability- and everything else that can have either a negative or positive effect on sales, you're only repeating the same thing over and over.

A few month sales declines does not spell the end of BMW or Mercedes. Period. Trends happen all the time, and they are just that, trends. They can change in either direction just as fast as they started.

I guess by the end of the year if Cadillac passes Mercedes in sales, that will mean they make a better car. Let us forget that they don't even compete price or product wise with any Mercedes above the E-Class. Oh, except for the whopping 300-unit-a month XLR.

When another brand can sell the number of cars Mercedes-Benz and BMW does covering their entire price ranges then I'll take note. Until then those brands who light up the under 50K segments and don't move nearly as much 60-120K iron as BMW and especially Mercedes don't mean squat to me.

I love how you tout Lexus' sales when basically only 2 of their vehicles have truly outstanding sales.

M

oac · April 2004

Oh, I do factor in all of those variables you mentioned - price, age, reliability, model change over, etc... Aren't all of these auto companies (Jag, Audi, BMW, Lex, MB, Caddy, etc) in similar situations ? Yet the direction remains the same for MB and BMW, according to current reports. Isn't the bottomline to IMPROVE SALES ??? And sales is not important ? OKee dokee.... In 1 yr, GM's Cadillac has shaved off >10,000-unit sales difference with MB. And you are not worried ? Glad you are not an MB exec....

The E- is a new design and doing so-so, the S is being redesigned after only what 4 years in its current skin? The new C is going to be out soon, but the old strangely continues to sell briskly. Why ? Maybe cos it is cheap, relatively speaking. I still maintain that redos for BMW has NOT meant much. Maybe MB's new releases and redos will help their bottomline ? Maybe not. I guess we'll see, won't we ?

merc1 · April 2004

We're only 3 full months into the New Year, and no all companies are not in the same situation. Some have newer models, so have older models. Some are going through model change over in the spring as opposed to the fall. Some have new products in the hottest segments of the market. Staggered model introductions etc. etc. There a jillion reasons why sales could be off for any particular brand as a whole at any given point in the year. This is why I look to look at the individual models to see who is doing what. Give the spring buying season a few months to lead into summer and then count the totals.

VW is the only brand that anyone has mentioned here that has had a continuous drop from year to year, not MB, BMW or Audi. If I were VW I'd be worried, and they've clearly said as much. Their sales have been in a free-fall for over a year, not the others! Every one of VW's affordable cars date back to either 1998 or 1999. No other brand is even remotely in the same situation, which is their fault. The Phaeton and Touareg are new, but cost a lot of money for VWs. Complete uphill battle there for VW, especially with the Phaeton, which will never be a big seller.

Another factor is suvs. Lexus and Cadillac, to their credit cash in big time here. Almost fifty percent of Lexus' business is SUVs. Cadillac just added a crossover to their product mix, the SRX. Nothing but pay dirt to be had there. Also like Lexus they have a hot 30-40K car, the CTS. The current Seville isn't even on the same page with the E-Class in sales. They dropped the STS version of the current Seville in preparation for the new STS this fall. See how that could affect sales for the whole brand if they didn't have the SRX/Escalade to prop the brand up???

I'm not trying to say that SUV sales aren't significant, just illustrating a point as to why certain brands are grabbing the sales headlines right now. Just think what the sales numbers for Lexus would be without the RX330 and GX470 and Cadillac without the Escalade and SRX.

My point is the Europeans are traditionally weak in the SUV market (which is their fault) and they tend to have model lineups that are thicker at the top end of the price spectrum. Mercedes-Benz in particular when you look at their model/price spread, frankly has no place in a sales race to begin with. I was shocked when the broke 200K units a year. The C-Class (their biggest seller) was way down last month and will probably sink even further once this month's totals are counted. The 2005 model doesn't go on sale until mid-May.

The S-Class came to market in spring of 1999 as a 2000 model and was face lifted for the 2003 model year. The next S-Class is due to come here in the spring of 2006 as a 2007 model. This is also the oldest car in its class yet is only second to the LS430 in sales. That doesn't say anything? Before spring of 2006, which is a long time from now, of course the car will fade away sales wise, this is only natural. The LS430 is on a similar time table and will cool down after this year also.

No I'm not worried in the least about Cadillac gaining on Mercedes in sales. Still doesn't prove who makes a better car nor is the sales race equal for all brands. When Cadillac can sell more then 300 XLRs a month I'll take them seriously. 10K cars is not a lot of ground to make for a brand with a much cheaper lineup of cars overall.

BMW has three new models for 2004. Only the new 5-Series was available from the start of year. I was never sure why you mentioned the 7-Series as being the problem when the car is in it's third model year and is hardly news anymore, a decline here is inevitable. You do realize their new X3 and 6-Series models only went on sale in mid-March? How could you possibly base that theory about BMW's redos not making a difference when 2 of their three new models for 2004 weren't even on sale in Jan-Feb???? Another reason why I say all this hysteria over the first three months is unfounded. Wanna bet the 645Ci Convertible has not hit its stride yet? I'll eat my shoes if BMW doesn't increase their overall sales this year compared to last year!

I think if you truly did factor in everything you wouldn't have made nearly as much fuss about any of this, especially based on a mere 3 months worth of sales numbers.

M

michael_mattox · April 2004

Was The S class 2ond to the LS in sales...BEFORE THE NEW 430 CAME OUT..

By your theory, because an updated model was on it's way Lexus LS sales should have been way off last year compared to the beautifull S class.

ljflx · April 2004

You can't do what you say regarding sales and popular models. Every business has an 80-20 or 70-30 rule or some majority dominating products in which much of the revenue comes from a handful of products. You would have to remove the two highest sellers from each brand if you did what you propose. In the case of MB and BMW you'd have to drill down to the platform level. Plus I'll maintain that most people don't view the RX as an SUV anyway. The GX and LX - absolutely - but the RX is much more like a car and comes from a car platform.

Can you imagine Coca Cola sales without coke and diet coke?

maxhonda99 · April 2004

Here's some stats about sales proportions as relates to the overall product line-ups sales:

Mercedes thru 1Q04:
C-Class and E-class sales totalled 28,209 out of a total of 49,159 in sales. That means about 57% of Benz sales come from just 2 classes of vehicles out of 9.

BMW thru 1Q04:
The 3-series range(Not including Z3/Z4) totalled 27,430 units vs. total BMW of 52,970. that equates to the 3-series carrying 52% of the sales load. That's right one model range out of 8.

Lexus thru 1Q04:
The ES and RX range totalled 41,449 vs. total Lexus of 65,392. That equates to 2 product lines making up 63% of total Lexus sales. Or 2 model ranges out of eight.

And I know another claim leveled against Lexus a bad thing is that Lexus sales are mostly SUV(which BTW is not Lexus fault if other companies can't design proper SUV that will sell).

Thru Q104, Lexus SUV sales have come out to 51% of total Lexus sales.

designman · April 2004

To me the above stats mean luxury and status have more significance to the lower-end buyer than they do to the manufacturers. The lower-end buyer wants a piece of the upper end. The manufacturer wants the supermarket bucks. Can't blame them, but this is helping to drag down the quality, reliability and mystique of the high-end luxury marque. As the world creeps toward economic parity, I see a world rife with mediocre products.

ljflx · April 2004

I think a couple of things are going on.

1. As the lux brands (maimly MB and BMW here) go down market they get more buyers and hence have to mass produce. This wasn't their planned business model so they don't do it so well. They were designed to be a boutique shop and venturing away from the initial business plan is always a problem - in any business.

2. The involvement of sophisticated electronics in cars also is a move away from their engineering prowess and is not a core strength and in fact is a pronounced weakness.

3. Both of the above play strongly into the Japanese hands because they are very well versed in mass production since that was their original business model and they are masters of electronics. The Lux car building move was made on top of that business model. It is easier to go from A to B than from B to A.

4. Many of the German car fans point to the things that have made the brands famous as still being great. I agree with them and don't think for a second that German engineering or the core of their automotive strengths have declined. They probably have gotten better. It's just all the electronics built around them that don't fare well. Unfortunately car building isn't as simple today as in the past and the competition is fiercer than ever - particularly at the lux end.

I don't think you will see an NFL in the car industry. I think you will see a continued strive for high quality everywhere. I just don't think everyone will get there. The Japanese are there already though with their leading brands.

VW - different set of problems. Something has gone wrong there.

syswei · April 2004

saugatak "The German Car Makers: Starting to make critical mistakes?" Apr 22, 2004 7:38am

lexus0622 · April 2004

Weak profits from core brand sales doesn't seem to be stopping VW's pursuit of new cash deals. Witness today's Wall Street Journal: "Volkswagen sait it and two investors plan to buy Dutch fleet management firm LeasePlan from ABN Amro for $2.38 billion."

Should customers be worried if VW appears not to be?

oac · April 2004

Made here by Ljflx and Designman.

My posts and links speak to ANNUAL sales, not mere 3 months sales, as many others are talking about. Check out the links again. They are annual sales and trends. DCX is down 0.4% in market share, and BMW is up 0.2%. Toyota, OTOH is up 0.7% in market share. Troubling, I am sure to Detroit, is that Toyota threatens to become #2 in US, ahead of DCX, which, IMO, is the real point I am driving to. DCX needs a wake-up.

But ljflx's points are right on the money, and may help rationalize some of what the market trends foretell today...

lovemyclk · April 2004

"3. Both of the above play strongly into the Japanese hands because they are very well versed in mass production since that was their original business model and they are masters of electronics. The Lux car building move was made on top of that business model. It is easier to go from A to B than from B to A."

Your premise is correct, however mass production gave way to Lean Production long ago. What was developed as the Toyota Production System (TPS) is now a management philosophy across all companies in the Toyota corporate empire. Toyota insiders refer to TPS as the "Thinking Production System". Problem solving at the value-added worker level is their core asset.

These concepts are at work throughout the Japanese Automotive world in one form or another.

ljflx · April 2004

I said it before - let's see how Q2 develops before jumping to any conclusions. My take thus far is that VW does have some serious problems on their hands and BMW may have problems developing. I think MB is fine for a simple reason. They do have a number of new models coming out and it's typical to slow production in an older model for two reasons. Changes in the assembly line and slowing demand in anticipation of a new model. That's typical and the reduced sales is more tied to the business process rather than market demand. MB should be pretty hot a year from now. If they aren't then that will be indicative of a real systematic problem.

merc1 - we may have said it differently but I think you and I are in agreement on MB sales.

rgsw · April 2004

I just came back from enjoying the 1st Albuquerque, NM International Car Show. Almost all the major/popular brands were present and well displayed. I observed that Lexus had an area marked off on the display map next to Toyota. Lexus was a no show and Toyota units filled in the display area. All those nice cars and Lexus was a no show.

pablo_l · April 2004

It amazes me that sales success continues to be as an argument here, as if sales numbers indicate excellence. In that case, the VW Golf is the best euro car, and something like the Honda Civic probably exemplifies Japanese perfection. Which to a certain degree they probably do, it's far tougher to produce excellence at a premium.

But luxury ought to be naturally about *small* volumes. If it becomes the norm with high sales, it's just the standard, and those with aspirations merely set their sights higher...

By the way, these days I find Jaguar interiors over-rated. I think the perception of them still being interior leaders shows that the perceptions around these cars are quite emotional, and colored by brand history and reputation. People *want* the Jag leather and wood to be supreme. In my experience with my last XJR, it was very nice, but it had some cheap touches. Vinyl armrest and such. People criticize Mercedes interiors, but Mercedes has always gone for a more spartan interior design. It's part of the brand. They're fixing the tactile aspect of the materials, which have by the way always been extremely durable. In world dominated by leasing, how these cars will look like after 10 years of daily use doesn't seem to matter much anymore, which is a bit of a shame.

Best luxury interior in my mind these days goes to the Range Rover. A friend has one, and it is awesome. I am a snob when it comes to car interiors (and interior design in a house!)... :-)

merc1 · April 2004

I think so too. I was just making the same point you've already stated, that this first quarter panic is hype and unfounded when you look at the actual facts. Even yearly we're talking about tenths of percent here! The only brand in real trouble is VW and their problem is mainly having an old model lineup and not offering American and Japanese car level incentives, until now. The next year will be very tough for them since the new Passat, Jetta and Golf don't get here until at least this time next year.

DCX as a whole needs to wake up, true. I would call all the new product at least a sign of them waking up, and I'm talking about the Chrysler side. Mercedes-Benz isn't nearly the trouble the Chrysler brands have been in. Mercedes-Benz never stopped making money and for the record DCX has decided not to bail out Mitsubishi.

M

pablo_l · April 2004

Perhaps there ought to be a "Luxury Car Brand Business Update" topic? The argument here seems to have shifted exclusively to which brand makes the most profit. It's like buying a gas guzzler and being happy about it because Shell is posting record profits... :-)

ljflx · April 2004

Took a good look at that new Audi schnoz and it looks to me like a person walking around with their mouth open. Audi took a perfect grill (at least the way it looks on the A8) and ruined it. Who made that decision and what were they thinking? As said on this board by others - we have BMW leading a growing group in wrecking rear designs and maybe now we have Audi trying to do the same to the front. Does anyone like that new grill?

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles