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Comments
There's something funky about the 300C though. It looks like it weighs 9,000 pounds and is the car I want to be driving if I'm gonna play chicken with someone. And for some strange reason I can picture it being shot to Swiss cheese in a Sopranos episode.
Interesting I'm reading that Hyundai could top Toyota in the JDP study due to be realesed tomorrow. Amazing no one on the survey/news articles watching board mentioned this, but we have DCX articles for days. We'll see how much preaching is done tomorrow evening if something like that happens. Could be hype, maybe not???
I know one thing the Germans will probably sink even further. Has to be that way.
M
I remain, yours truly, a dreamer indeed !
BTW, the LF-S is forever to be a concept car. The GS surely took what it could from it and turned out to be a dud imo
It is worth noting that this car hasn't even gone into production and you have already stated it "turned out" to be a dud. Hmmm... I'd like to know where you got your crystal ball. But, you left yourself an out with an imo at the end of that sentence. Almost too clever...
M
I thought JD Power surveys were useless, IYO?
designman - they are into wrecking cars this year and stealing them as well. I hope they don't wreck Johnny Sack's Maserati. But somehow I think him and that car may have an unhappy ending. Wonder what he did with the S500? By the way was the car that dropped the bundle of money in the episode before last a Lexus GS. Looked like one but it was a dark night scene. I'll have to look again at that last show but I think Frankie Valli was eating at the Four Seasons to propose the "hit".
Precisely my sentiments. I still can’t stop ogling them when I see one parked with the top down. Actually, I love all of ‘em except the current one.
Haven’t been able to watch Tony and the boys these past couple of weeks. The last one I saw was when Paulie hit the gardner in the head with a shovel, he dropped the rope, and his partner came flying out of the tree... chain saw and all.
I love nicknaming cars with dubious design. Think I’ll dub the 300C The Waffle Iron.
Lexus is still #1 though, but Cadillac is closing the gap.
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pressrelease.asp?ID=2004037
I wonder which Lexus models slipped in initial reliability...
http://www.jdpa.com/presspass/pr/pressrelease.asp?ID=2003028
MB has indeed made some strides, going from 15th place to 10th.
http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/040429/autos_daimlerchrysler_1.html
Secondly since this is the board for survey worshipers with a Toyota bias I just had to point out that about Hyundai, which by all accounts were sub-par just a few years ago.
Mind you this is the initial quality survey and a lot of folks don't put to much emphasis on this one. The 3 year dependability study is the more important one. I agree with this.
michael_mattox,
You make it seem like it has been 20 years or something..lol. A turn around of any kind takes time. For whatever it is worth Mercedes did improve by twenty percent this year, per JDP. So actually they didn't get "shoved down" even further as you put it. I'm telling you now don't look for much or any improvement in the dependability study because for 2004 they'll be looking at 2001 cars. It will take a few more years for things to change on these types of surveys, reguarding Mercedes-Benz.
____________________________
There is another thing in a carconnection.com article that says exactly what I've tried to tell certain people for years. You have to look at where the models place in these surveys. Porsche was the darling last year and oh how I had to hear about MB's cross-town neighbor is able to do it right and Mercedes couldn't but this year Porsche dropped down because of one model.
Mercedes' main problem children have been that dang ML, C-Class and recently the initial run of 2003 E-Classes. I can't find the link where the S-Class was only second to the LS430 in initial quality in either 2002 or 2003?? Footie??
Some people will now look at Porsche and say that they've lost something, yet the 911 and Boxster are more reliable than ever, it is just the Cayenne dropping their "nameplate" overall. You also have to look at which model might be carrying the weight for a certain namplate. BMW is the perfect example of this. They sell more 3-Series cars than X5s and 7-Series combined, so unless JDP has some type of system in place to make sure an even amount of BMW owners gets surveys, the biggest group (3-Series) of owners are more likely to get a survey. The X5 and now the 7-Series have been just as much trouble as any Mercedes-Benz, yet wasn't (?) BMW ahead of Mercedes until this year on this very same initial quality survey. I tried to explain why this could be in various News and Views topics, but no all I got was BMW is better, while actual 745i and X5 owners were pulling their hair out. Of course BMW will lead if the 3-Series carries most of the weight on the surveys (because that is what they sell the most of). The 3-Series has been around since 1999 so of course it is going to be very reliable now.
My whole point is that you have to do more than count where a nameplate places before making so many assumptions as so many people love to do on these boards. Sometimes it really does make a difference to see where the actual models place, not just the nameplate.
ljflx,
I see. What did you think of the 1990-2002 SL? That was my favorite car on the planet for like 10 years! Well if you're going to consider a CL you have from now until about spring of 2006 to get one. This particular CL I boldly predict will become a classic (long time from now because of the sales numbers) because of it's design. It may just be the best looking Mercedes I've seen since (1986) I've been paying attention to Mercedes.
M
The Mercedes-Benz M-Class placed in the top 3 for initial quality! What in the world? Someone either has goofed with the numbers (JDP) or Mercedes actually bothered to address the many complaints about this vehicle. I'll be watching the 2007 dependability survey to see if it holds up. Doubt it.
Cadillac's brand new XLR made it into the top three for it's segment. Interesting seeing as though they only sell about 300 a month, a very small sample of data I'm sure.
I see GM's older, low-tech cars/trucks made the cut: Buick Century, Chevy/Cadillac SUV twins. No surprise there. The CTS made the cut also, impressive.
ljflx - despite all the problems I read about on the SUV board concerning the GX470 it still placed in the top 3. Also interesting.
Ford's brand new F150 placed in the top three. A minor miracle for Ford. Their new product intros are usually followed by recall after recall, problem after problem.
So much to see and think about with these surveys.
M
The GX being in the top 3. The segment it competes in (premium luxury SUVs) doesn't have that many competitors (my guess would be 5-8), so the GX could still be below average within the Lexus nameplate, but finish second out of group of 5-8.
That ML result is impressive. Maybe we'll be replacing the LX with a R someday...but not in its first year for sure, I can't just assume first-year quality with an MB (unlike with Lexus).
Replace you LX with an "R"? You mean an RX or Mercedes' upcoming R-Class (don't yell at me if I'm slow here and I dare suggest that you'd consider a MB product).
M
I actually do keep a somewhat open mind about these choices.
S-class - I would expect that initial quality scores of the S-class to be sky high. In all honesty who wouldn't be happy with this car during the inital period measured? I think the problems that hurt it are a little down the road - 6-12+ months out. The LS keeps going in the near perfection of the first 3-6 months thus the sky high satisfaction and reliability indexes of CR. MB has to work out the bugs in the S-class that develop a bit later on and as I said, from my reading and personal acquaintances they are mainly electrical. Personally - I don't put much stock in the initial quality index. I've never had a new car I didn't like. Initialy quality reminds me so much of winter storm wishes I had when I was in school and prayed for snow days. Most of those storms started out as snow, many of them turned to rain - and off to school I went. Initial quality of the storms were great though.
I do agree with ljflx and merc1 that long-term reliability matters more than initial quality, though.
MB - Perception is still high which could account for the ranking.
When I started buying new cars, I no longer really wanted a Cadillac. In the past 20 years, I have only owned one Caddy--an Allante. Hopefully, the upcoming STS will be a winner.
Perhaps Cadillac will be on top of that "perception" perch soon with Mercedes, and I can wear the hood ornament on a gold chain. :-D
But what I am saying is that MB is on the highest of pedestals when it comes to image. To this day, even though Cadillac has seen the dregs, the image still holds for many and it held even during the raunchy years. I think MB would have to go clearly out of business before people let go, and even then, they’d be wishing it back from the dead. From the upper reaches of corporatia to the lower-east-side pimps, it’s one of the ultimate status symbols, and to people who have built emotional equity in status, I have to believe reliability is a concept with which they have little familiarity. And with hefty price hits, there will be plenty of these people turning it into their opportunity.
I have seen several people now in the $1mln+ per year comp range walk from MB over to Lexus. My old company's former CEO just did and I was shocked to find out the other day. He was one of those people that I thought would never move from MB. Swapped out of an S600 and into an LS430 ultra and loves it. We met for dinner, never talked about cars but had parked at the same NYC garage. Then we walked off together and both asked for the same car. It was a funny moment. I was glad to tell him I only had a custom lux. He had a host of problems with his S600.
ejerod "Mercedes-Benz S-Class" Apr 29, 2004 10:13am
ljflx,
Yeah I know that is true about initial quality, but those MY 2000 S-Class cars were troublesome from the start and Mercedes did address those issues (Airmatic and Comand mainly) so I really expect the 2003+ models to do pretty well in the 3 year dependability studies, but we'll see. Of course by 2006-2007 they'll be a new S-Class...ugh. I disagree with the perception theory. If a car is having problems in the first 90 days then it isn't living up to the perception and people that spend that kind of money would report it don't you think??
"Personally I don't know anyone who's had a flawless Benz right now and I don't know
anyone who hasn't had a flawless Lexus. "
I'm not saying that isn't true in your case, but I've always thought you glossed over things like that a little too much for me. When people are happy overall with a car they're a lot less likely to harp about a minor problem that may or may not have happened. Your circle loves their Lexi so I'm not surprised. However Lexus' do have problems, the IS300 and GX470 have proven that right here on these boards, and yes I know they are far less frequent than Mercedes-Benz's.
You're starting to see the light about (what should be) Mercedes' purpose in life! That makes two very shocking revelations on this board in one day. Wow. Seriously though they might be doing just that. For one the quality of materials and build have gone up (reportedly) significantly with the new SLK and the CLS. This is per the British press, which is much rougher on MB's mistakes than the U.S press is. They've decided to get rid of the 4-cylinder SLK over here. Thank god, because that engine wasn't fit for the SLK and it sounded like an old Freeze King unit. The CLS is coming in V8 guise only, the CLS500. No multi models to have to concentrate on. There will probably be an AMG version for 2007 though. Premium cars only should be the thinking Stuttgart, at list as far as the U.S market is concerned. We'll see what happens.
M
The IS300 has reliability/quality issues?
I haven't seen any sign of those.
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=2884&cat- egoryId=1
"When people are happy overall with a car they're a lot less likely to harp about a minor problem that may or may not have happened."
I agree, which brings the question that we should be talking about....WHY are people so unhappy with their benz that they harp about every minor problem?....ALSO what is it about Lexus that makes people who own them so happy?
Also, the sarcasm that shows up here from time to time is out of place. We are supposed to be discussing - and enjoying - the upper-end vehicles, not poking needles in each other's eyes.
Sheesh. Am I a broken record, or what?
Has anyone heard from arcoates lately? He's been MIA for some time now.
syswei,
If I had millions and millions of dollars and had every European car I could ever want I'd at least consider a SC430. I still find it to be the most "interesting" Lexus. I was a fan of the previous SC400/300 believe it or not. It was a very good design for a Japanese car.
michael_mattox,
Easy, because of the money paid for and rep of MBenz. A lot of people expect perfection and if the car doesn't deliver that it gets blasted. Plus unlike Lexus, Mercedes has this 118 year reputation to live up too and when they don't...look out! A dual-edged sword. My point on here is that there seems to be too much exaggeration in these areas.
ljflx,
Man you don't know the half of it. There are some MB fans on other boards here and at germancars fans that totally disagree with me about MB moving back towards their old way of producing fewer, but higher quality cars. I usually find these folks to be lacking in understanding of what Mercedes-Benz truly is. The old-school MB owners/fans etc. are right with me on most things. I don't see why some would want more volume and cheaper MBs that is what they bought Chrysler for, I keep telling them.
Also, I wouldn't look for Lexus to become BMW-like past the next IS series. They would never make a 5-Series beater in the handling department, it would give up too much of the Lexus ride. This goes double for the LS430 vs the 745i. They'll never compromise this for a few enthusiasts that probably wouldn't buy a Lexus anyway. They'll come close with the new GS (in handling) I predict, but I doubt it will outright outhandle a BMW at a track.
I've had "conversation" upon conversation about the E-Class and the 5-Series. The BMW guys say the 5-Series sets the benchmark, and I say it is when it comes to handling. Other areas such as space, ride comfort etc the E is easily better and outsells the 5-Series in just about every country around the world. Now you can arguable add ease of use and practicality too, plus styling, but that is subjective. I ask them why would Mercedes mess with this to chase BMW's 5 in handling when they already have the bigger piece of the market? They've had since the previous 5's introduction in 1996 to build the 2003 E-Class to match that car's handling and they still didn't do it. They aren't trying to obviously. Sure there is AirmaticDC and great adjustability, but chasing BMW in the mid to upper segments when it comes to handling isn't Mercedes' mission and it probably won't be Lexus' either when it comes to the next LS.
Now lexus does want the GS to be seen in the same light as the 5-Series but so far the previous 2 generations have failed at this. Tough spot for them with the GS because the 5 and E are so dominant and they do so on different strengths.
There is a similar dilemma with Honda/Acura not producing a V8 RL. Hot topic on the News and Views side of the house.
Nobody can do it all, all luxury car makers have to make compromises somewhere.
M