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Comments
You are probably right about most of the people in the world still believing that Mercedes is the ultimate luxuary brand and BMW is the ultimate "driving machine".
Unfortunately for those auto manufactures...The people that buy Luxury cars think differently.
By #1 lux plate - I simply meant units sold. I have no doubt MB is still the prestige leader though I think they are sliding fast.
The people that buy Luxury cars think differently
You're soooooo right ! Putting your money where your mouth is, is a lot different from wishful thinking and dreaming. But, we can dream, can't we ?
And I do not have an answer to your rhetorical question of why Lexus with a 100 less dealerships than MB in the US outsell MBs in total sales ? Maybe the MB oracle (Merc1) knows
Lexus=88,947
MB=67,543
Lexus has a sizable lead, but you also have to factor in the fact that the average MB vehicle costs more. I'd venture to guess that the average Lexus selling price is about $44,000 and the average MB selling price is about $57,000.
88,947 x 44 = 3,913,668
67,543 x 57 = 3,848,951
Seen in this way, it's not so clear that Lexus is running away with it.
Not very scientific and based on guesses, but you get the point.
-Ray
Off topic but at least I'm not alone in thinking his role was a huge win and brought some serious life back into otherwise a completely stale program.
-Ray
I'm not sure actually. I think design wise they've never been better with the exception of the CLK and Maybach. Neither of those cars "look" like they should imo. I also think the SL could stand a few less frivolous details like on the sides and hood, but overall Mercedes seems to be at the top of their game design wise. This statement is pending me actually seeing the CLS mind you. Their old style probably wouldn't sell today unless they brought back everything that went along with those designs. You know like the hefty build and much better reliability, you know the stuff that made the legend in the first place. For them to just go back to stodgy designs without the corresponding jump in quality wouldn't work, again imo. If they did both then heck yeah it would work, but they'd sell a lot less cars. Good question.
Also, if people buying Lexuses think that they are the ultimate then people buying MB, BMW and others think those brands are the ultimates also. Overall image still goes to the Germans, no matter how slight or fleeting that advantage may be to Lexus owners. Until Lexus does some, what I like to call gee-whiz cars and a 100K+ car they simply don't have the image here and especially on the worldwide scene.
oac,
You're confused about Mercedes-Benz's models. The "C-Class" does not comprise the CLK or CL. The CLK is a 50K+ machine and the CL is a 100K+. The CLK is based on the C-Class sedan chassis, but its sales aren't counted in with the C-Class. The CL is a large coupe based on the S-Class, it has nothing to do with the C-Class at all. If you think the 50K+ CLK Coupe/Convertible and 100K and up CL Coupe are supposed to even contend with a 33K ES330 Sedan (in the heart of the market) for sales you're completely lost on how the market works.
The S-Class being down on sales means what? The car came out in the Spring of 1999 as MY2000 car and is now the oldest car in this class. It had a record year in 2000 and in 2003, which were its introduction and face-lift years. The LS has and will do the same thing for 2001 and 2004. These are normal market trends, yet you continue to hype this as type of abnormality or crisis. The Lexus GS has literally fallen of the sales charts for the same reasons, it's old. Is that a crisis or just a normal model progression over time?
Lexus sales more cars because they have a cheaper overall lineup. I don't know why this has been so hard to grasp on this board. Lexus' core cars are between 33-55K, and they are the ES, RX, GS, IS and GX. This same price spread will only get you a C-Class, CLK320, M-Class, SLK or E320 at a Mercedes-Benz store. It is so obvious that you haven't ever looked at 1) a MB sales chart or 2) the price configurator at the MB site. They have 25 models that start around 50K (E320 48K) and up, compared to 12 that are priced under 50K. The sales advantage will likely always be Lexus'.
That plus the fact that Lexus has the most efficient dealership setup in the industry (which is Lexus' competitor's problem, not Lexus') equals more sales. I've always stated the Lexus had the greatest dealership setup. Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Jaguar have had some of the same dealers for 40 years and it is hard to get such and entrenched group (read stubborn) to change their ways. Mercedes actually lost about 80 dealerships in the late eighties and early nineties when sales hit an all time low of about 60K units in 1993. In Southern Cal there are way too many dealerships in some cases right on top of each other and for years they've all been able to sell enough cars to make each one of them viable. Same situation Florida. Huge markets. I bet Lexus has far fewer dealerships in these areas, but no doubt sells more cars though each one.
All this crisis talk based on sales is so ridiculously funny because in 1993 Mercedes sold a little over 61K cars and they had way more dealers then, but now they move over 200K a year. You Lexus guys missed the real crisis as far as sales are concerned!
Also..the new SLK will make a huge difference once it goes on sale. The SLK will be in the 40-50K range and is set to dominate the class until the next Porsche Boxster comes along, going by the press reviews so far. Of course the 190K (projected) CL and SL 65 models aren't going to sell more than a couple hundred units a year. These are prestige or halo cars only. The 450K SLR will also sell in the 200-300 unit range per year, hardly a spec on the sales chart. The CLS500 will add somewhere between 5-8K units a year. MB's biggest sellers are the C and E-Class (small and medium sedans just like BMW or Audi) followed by the ML, CLK, S and SL models in any given year.
Mercedes unlike all the rest also has a large group of cars at their top end to which no one else (except BMW in same cases) has an answer for. The MB sales picture will always be somwhat different.
M
M
As Merc1 stated, C-class sales do not include CLK, CL. Besides the SLK(which is a niche product), Mercedes in also soon to introduce a new ML-class SUV, new G-class SUV, the R-class crossover/station wagon, the new CLS 4-door coupe, and a new S-class in 2 years. See they have new cars coming out in new segments.
The 100 less dealers part wasn't a question, it was merely a statement that no one should forget alongside the smaller product line that Lexus has and the lack of prestige in relation to Mercedes and BMW.
Do you know how illogical this sounds?
The ES330 is no cheaper than a C-class. In fact, the majority of C-class sales come from the cheaper C240 and then you factor in the cheaper C230K and C230 hatch and the average price of a ES330 is much more than the average price of a C-class sold. Same with the RX330. The RX330 MSRPs right up there with the ML350 and the ML350 after discounts probably sells for alot less, yet the RX330 crushes the entire ML lineup in sales.
But in cars above say $55K I'm not sure the numbers are all that different and I'm estimating here so none of this is for certain. But here's my guess as rounded: LS- 30k, LX - 11k, SC 14K Total Lexus 55K; MB - S-class 22K, SL 14K, G-class 2K and E500 - 20K (guessing there is a 2:1 ratio on the E), Total MB 56K. So in outright comparative vehicle figures the numbers are relatively close. Now you have a whole bunch of niche MB's that I have'nt counted because I have no idea of those sales figs. But they are niche and can't be all that great.
The other thing to consider is Lexus introduced the GX and many of them are in the $50k range so right there is about a 35k volume seller at a desirable sale price that wasn't there 2 years ago and Lexus has moved up the average price of the RX and ES significantly in the last few years - not by raising prices but by outfitting them with more options. They did this very successfully with the LS in 2001 when they rolled the NAV/ML into a package that was practically irresistable. So in the mid 90's you had basically all premium LS cars at $56K whereas today you have few premium cars and most are optioned heavier and sell at $62-66K.they also moved up the price of the LX from $55-57K in the late 90's to generally $65-70K today. Unit sales were always around 12K so the GX hasn't even cannibalized the LX. Another big success story on both counts. I think the next LX is a $75k suv for the most part and $80k with the inevitable hybrid.
All of this is only relevant at the sales dollar level anyway. It's profit that drives everything and Lexus unit cost to build is far lower than that of MB. It's really something what they've done. In 1995 my LS400 had a $56K sticker and was simply a premium car. I didn't take the nakamichi and other goodies until 1998. That same car today is virtually unchanged in price, is built better than ever and gives you a lot more standard equipment - more air bags, a more powerful engine, better grade leather with all around seat heaters, skid control (vs outdated traction control back then) etc.
I loved this respin:
No one ever stated that the LS wasn't a good car..people will still see that despite the styling. Plenty of unattractive cars sell very well, this is nothing new.
In fact everyone says the LS is a great car ... and whatever it is you don't like doesn't stand in the way of buyers buying it in 2x the numbers of the S
The right way to say the "Plenty of cars ... " is "Plenty of cars that are unattractive to me sell very well, so they must be appreciated by their buyers."
Right. Eye of the beholder(s), pocketbooks of the buyers.
It seems to me that since this is the High End Luxury car board we should stop trying to change the subject by talking about the full lineups of these major Luxury car builders and stick to the cars that fall into the luxury class..LS430, S class, 7 series, jag, rolls, Cady deville/seville ETC....
In this example of yours Price of fully loaded S to fully loaded LS would be the factor or Price of base S to Base LS...We could then go into features for each and perhaps have a more worthwhile discussion.
And these are big companies in a huge market, not any one of them is going to establish total dominance, and cyclical up and down effects are part of a mature market.
It doesn't really make a lot of sense to compare Ford pickups with Mercedes S class sedans.
toyota/lexus 275k units, +20.6% from prior year
MB 245k -2.5%
BMW Group 226k +6.6%
BMW core 182k +5.5%
Hyundai 103k +17.6%
Daewoo 47k +41%
'Mercedes officials attribute the decline in sales...to the company's model cycle...Several analysts agreed the slippage was to be expected, though some expressed worry that the cancellation of Wolfgang Bernhard's appointment to the helm of Mercedes signals an unwillingness to recognize quality troubles. "They should open their hearts to the reality that there are problems and maybe only someone from outside Mercedes-Benz can see these problems," said Pia Hellbach, a fund manager with Union Investments in Frankfurt.'
link for subscribers http://online.wsj.com/search#SB108447764299010910
http://www.acea.be/ACEA/index.html
and the third page of this file has details for more brands: http://www.acea.be/ACEA/20040513PressRelease.pdf
To continue the discussion in 4958, 4959, 4965, what I'll say is that for the US market, if you look at data from the company press releases or autosite.com, looking at Lexus and MB specifically, the ES outsells the C, the E outsells the GS, the LS outsells the S, and the RX outsells the M. My point of view is that for the US market, those respective models that are selling better than their counterparts are doing a better job of meeting (or at least promising to meet) their respective target audiences' needs.
Successful, YES. But we are talking TRENDS here. Toyota/Lexus sales are trending UP, while MB sales are going the other direction.... How can Toyota outsell MB in their own region ? That will be like MB outselling Toyota in Japan or the Asia/Pacific region... Can you see that happening anytime soon ???
How about what's happening at DCX lately ? Confusion on the Mitsu rescue (board says one thing, company does another !), confusion with stake in Hyundai (sold-off eventually), indecision with Bernhard's headship of the MB line (moved aside Bernhard from the top MB position), can't seem to sort out Chrysler and its money-losing crap-o-cars, slow to accept and address quality issues befalling hitherto rock-solid/bulletproof cars like the S-class (too many horror stories from owners). With such inept leadership by Schrempf, the board rewarded him with a long-term deal ! Just wonderful, don't you think ? The one thing Schrempf has in his resume is the purchase/merger with Chrysler, and that is a failing grade !! Maybe the board likes the direction he is taking the company ? No ? That is why I had cautioned about the Barron's Bank analogy. But of course, many people don't think this can happen to the likes of MB ! Okee dokiee....
S-class: 7,292
7-series: 6,385
LS: 6,155
2004 Year to date sales:
S-class: 5,778
7-series: 5,528
LS: 10,583
Granted, the S-class is near its model run, but that is still a huge negative change, and a corresponding huge positive change for the LS.
However, their overwhelming lead may not be the case in a couple years, with a slew of redesigned vehicles in this class coming out within a year--A6, GS, M, RL, and STS.
http://www.kfz-auskunft.de
Mercedes S-Klasse 9865 11395 -13,4
BMW 7er 7881 8610 -8,5
Audi A8 6988 4361 60,2
The numbers being for this year, last year, and the change in %. Big winner in Germany has been the Audi A8, and also to a lesser degree the VW Phaeton, since that's the reason both Merc and BMW have lost some volume.
Lexus is nowhere in sight in the German market. Given the volumes quoted above, it seems that the S class still ships in more volume than the LS worldwide.
In any case, this says very little about the merits of the different cars. The Bentley Arnage sells less volume than any of these, and yet there's little doubt that it exemplifies the true meaning of luxury far more impressively.
Sales numbers are not the end-all and be-all. But they do tell you something about the general trend and preferences within a defined market (in this case, the U.S. ultra luxury sedan market). I don't think they're worthless.
No one is saying that the LS is universally "better" because it sells more. That's up to the individual.
Except these cars are sold world-wide with the US being just one market.
Yes, I am quite aware of that fact, without your need to remind me.
I was quoting the sales figures to illustrate trends in the U.S. market, and my take on it. I happen to live in the U.S., and I am more interested in how American buyers are perceiving these cars.
Whatever you want to interpret from them, then that is up to you.
If you're more interested in worldwide trends, then fine. No need to point out the obvious.
I'm not even sure the US market is the largest market, although it is the most conspicous compsumption market. So taking a look at world-wide figures is an interesting thing.
And we've gone from that to an issue about German medical and technical engineering innovations?
While I'm sure that Germans have contributed greatly to the quality of our lives, I am just as sure that only the automotive aspects of that lifestyle enhancement are relevant here.
We need to keep our focus on the cars without turning this into a political discussion way beyond the scope of the Town Hall's purpose, you know?
Thanks.
And again, the point I make is all this means nothing when it comes to the cars' merits. But the way the "business" discussion is carried seems somewhat peculiar.
In today's San Diego Union Tribune was an article titled: "Oh, What a Feeling". This article was about Toyota including their financials. For the fiscal year ending March 31, Toyota marked their second successive record year of profit, earning $10 Billion, representing a 55% YoY increase. That is after-tax earnings, folks ! And growth came from all markets - Europe, Asia and NAmerica. Is Toyota's financials not scary ??? Last year, Toyota became #2 worldwide auto company based on sales, and now controls 11% of the global auto market. Their goal is 15% by 2020, but that goal looks more likely to happen much earlier. Quoting the article: "So far, no one expects Toyota to stumble anytime soon." GM look-out !!! All one needs do is flip the coin and evaluate what's going on with Toyota's major competitors - Audi/VW, DCX/MB, Ford/Jag, BMW, etc.... Methinks these companies will be well served to take a leaf (or two) out of Toyota's branch and see how a successful auto company should be run. How many people believe MB will still be holding on to Chrysler in a few years from now ? Personally, I won't bet on it.... MB should cut its loss (as they did with Mitsu and Hyundai) from the *merger* and get back to basics of building worldclass cars/trucks built to a quality point not a price point, in order to be able to withstand the onslaught coming from Honda/Acura and Toyota/Lexus in the next few years.....
Just my humble opinion.....
I do agree with you; world-wide figures is an interesting thing. I'm just personally more interested in the US market.
-----------------------------
About the German market, you gotta remember that that is MB, BMW, and Audi's home turf. This greatly contributes to the fact that Lexus doesn't do as well there. I'm sure the Celsior (LS430) handily outsells its German counterparts in Japan. The unique thing about the US market is that it is a "third-party" market and a huge market at the same time.
I'm not knocking the S-class at all. I think the current iteration is the most beautiful sedan of all time. The design of the current LS430, on the other hand, does nothing for me. It sure has a quality interior though.
Pablo - personally I find you quite objective.