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DB
merc1 - don't like those pix either - but a car that big has to be seen in person. It's not a bad looking car in pix but it just falls short of the car it's replacing.
As to the Phaeton, I have to yet see one driving around, and it's been a while since launch. That's bad news. The even worse news for VW is that if they were trying to excite the imagination and create brand equity with the Phaeton... since when are big sedans the type of car to ignite the imagination? Do an innovative coupe or some sportscar for that.
Mercedes and Bruno Sacco are done from everything I've read. He is apparently still "close" (whatever that means) to the company but he isn't running the design studios. Oh well, not even Mercedes, BMW or Audi can make a gorgeous car every time. They used too, but not anymore. The 7, 5, 6 has proven BMW can't and the CLK and Maybach have proven the same with Mercedes. I guess Mercedes felt the need to do a radical change with at least one of their cars since all their recent re-designs were conservative and safe. Despite all the criticism of the 7-Series, like others have just pointed out and like I pointed out a few months back during all that gloom and dooms sales talk here about BMW , the 2002+ 7-Series has sold better than the 1995-2001 model ever did. Hence MB, and even Acura (have you seen the rear of the new TL?) may not see it as a such a big risk in doing something radical.
"By the way - you are hard on Lexus - I think you know that - but I've always found you pretty honest and frank on MB despite your favoritism there."
You know what, the only reason I'm "hard" on Lexus is because some here are just as "hard" on Mercedes and/or BMW. I happen to like the GX470 and I still think the SC430 is an "interesting" car. I've always seen Mercedes for what they are, problems and all. Its the baseless and unfounded hype that invades this board and the news and views boards sometimes that sends the bs meter into the red. Especially the rhetoric about sales that isn't even based on anything and the ever preached gloom and doom/crisis talk based on it. When Mercedes has a model that cools down in sales it is crisis, yet when Lexus has one that hasn't sold well in years we get (not from you) all types of different excuses and it isn't seen as a crisis. You'd think that MB or BMW don't have any bestsellers at all per the tone on this board at times. You know what I mean? All that bad talk about the 7 and that it has done so well reminds me of when you say the car rags don't know what they're talking about...and I'm thinking that they've harped on and on about the 7's styling and idrive since 2002 and the car still has outdone the previous 7-Series. Most (not all) of the people on these boards who complain the loudest about the styling probably wouldn't have bought a 7-Series BMW anyway is my thinking.
The car mags aren't marketing people so they really don't have a clue as to what will or won't sell ultimately.
BMW sales are up due to the X3 first and then the 6-Series. The 7 is down and the 5 is about even with last year. Now worldwide they outsold Mercedes in May, and they might do it for the year if the 1-Series catches on because Mercedes' A-Class doesn't go on sale until fall. BMW's 3 and 7 have cooled a bit worldwide, which is at least somewhat expected of the 3-Series. The car is its 6th model year.
The Paris autoshow in Sept of this year is going to be a "really big show". Lots of German debuts.
VW doesn't have a bad looking car in their showroom. They all define that conservative, yet handsome look that Audi/VW is so good at projecting. The Touareg is one of the few SUVs that I like, that interior is the best going imo this side of a Range Rover. It along with the GX470, Cayenne and Range Rover would be on my list if I had the money and desire for a luxury SUV. The Phaeton is a smashingly handsome car, but it is a pointless exercise in VW showroom.
VW needs to improve reliability and get the new Jetta, Passat here ASAP. Though both of these cars are still very handsome and look timeless to me they are dated in features, engines etc. compared to the newer Korean and Japanese competition. VW needs small SUV to compete with the RAV4s and Escapes of the world. I want a sports car from them like that R Concept they showed at Frankfurt last year. Phaeton misstep aside VW is here to stay.
Have you and Lexusguy seen the comparo in the Aug issue of C&D? Awesome group of cars!
M
I feel like half the cars on the road is some sort of "luxury" make. It wasn't like that just ten years ago.
To me, the most interesting maker is Infiniti, trying to do their "Japanese BMW" thing. To be recognized as one of the "Big Boys", you need a successful $60k sedan. We all know that the Q is far from that. Would be interesting to see how the next Q turns out.
Frankly, if Lexus didn't have the LS, people would not think of them as being in the same league with BMW and MB. Instead, people would think of them as a company that sells very reliable, cush riding, rebadge Toyotas with nice interiors (Camry -> ES, Highlander -> RX, 4Runner -> GX, Land Cruiser -> LX).
The IS, GS, and SC do not have Toyota counterparts in the US, but don't really sell well.
Interesting point. In other words they'd be another Acura.
As far as sales go I expect Lexus, Mercedes, Audi and Infiniti post the biggest gains over the next 18 months or so due to all the new product they all have coming up. I think BMW will cool down after the 2006 3-Series is introduced. They won't have another all new product for a few more years.
M
Well... not quite. At least from the information I've seen in the C&D news section, VW sales are down, Audi is luke warm, BMW\Mini are doing well, and M-B is holding. I know Chrysler is up quite a bit thanks to 300, but I didnt hear anything about M-B grabbing any sales records. Lexus always has record months. Acura is way up thanks to the smash hit TL, and Infiniti is way up because they have real product to sell for the first time in their history. What has M-B just introduced that would lead to major sales gains? Most of their cars are due for redesign.
That is an interesting point about Lexus, but you have to remember, the LS came first. It was Lexus intent to compete with the best of Europe, and the LS400 was their first car. ES250 came next. Infiniti isnt quite ready to be a "big boy player" just yet. Hell just a few years a go Nissan\Infiniti was written off as a dead company. Infiniti needs more time to fill out its product line before they introduce a new fullsize sedan. (You cant let your primary sellers grow old while you work on some super flagship with a questionable market -VW) After G, FX, QX, and now M, my guess is that their next car will be the American version of Skyline GT-R (about bloody time!) and the Q possibly after that, maybe for '08. The Q was slightly facelifted for '05, which usually means it gets to soldier on for at least another 2 years or so.
MB is about even.
BMW is the only one out of the five that is down from last year (-4.6% YTD) so far this year.
Overall, BMW Group sales are up because of the Mini, but Mini is not a BMW, nor a luxury car. VW is not a luxury make. I don't know what's going on with Audi.
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The LS really does a lot for Lexus's image. No doubt about that.
The Infiniti GTR is rumoured to come in 2007. A bit far away. We'll probably see an M based coupe before that, to go against the 6 and the CLK. Maybe a G convertible as well. I also think they'll come out with an SUV based on the 2005 Pathfinder, to go against the GX. The QX, which is basically a rebadged Armada, has sold pretty well, and luxury SUV's in general are profit mines.
But the next Q is important.
-----------------------
Although Acura sells more than Infiniti, I really think of them a step below. It's hard to consider cars that MAX out at $24k (RSX) and $29k (TSX) as befitting luxury status.
Then you're left with just the TL and MDX, both of which sell in droves. But even these two are rebadged Accord EX-V6's and Pilots.
The current RL and the NSX haven't sold nearly enough to make a mark.
How the 2005 RL does will be interesting to see as well. Even though it doesn't have a V8, Acura really is trying to break into a new market with this car.
You are probably right, but if BMW didn't have a 7-series people would think BMW isn't in the same league as Mercedes either. You remember when BMW had no 7-series up to the mid-80s? They weren't considered in the same class as Mercedes back then.
guess you're not aware that the "lowly Chevy" engine on Ward's Top 10 is GM's 4.2L I6. You say you didn't bash the 4.2L I6, but read your own words, especially the bolded part.
You are entirely making too many assumptions. "Lowly Chevy" is a reference to the Chevy brand; if you think Chevy is a High End Luxury Marques (the title of this board), please let me know. The fact that even the lowly Chevy has an entry in the Ward's top 10 list, makes no great bragging rights for MB, priced on average some 3-4 times as expensive as Chevy's, to have an entry there.
I wrote: What do gearing and rear axel ratio have anything to do with that? You can make gearing and rear axel ratio choices to optimize for 0-60 (which makes 0-60 a bad measure for true performance), but as a consequence you have to compromise somewhere else due to the lack of power.
You wrote: You seem to have answered your own question. Sometimes the car with faster 0-60 is due to shorter gearing. I don't know the gearing or rear axel ratios of the MB vs. Camry. I was wondering if possibly the Camry had shorter gearing to account for its faster times.
Could you proofread what you type up before posting it? where did I say anything about Camry being faster than MB in 0-60? I said MB E320 is underpowered in its class (and 0-60 is not necessarily a good measurement of power). Once again, I ask, how does any of your argument regarding gearing have anything to do with rebutting my statement that MB E320 is under-powered?? What in the world does gearing have to do with under-poweredness which is a function of engine choice for the vehicle weight. The argument I made was based on power-to-weight ratio, which MB320 has the worst by far in its class.
YOU claimed that BMW underrates its engines. I just showed you ONE example, the 5.0L BMW e39 M5 v8, where BMW is clearly NOT underrating its engines.
I said BMW often underrates its engines. A small volume counterexample at the extreme of its product spectrum hardly rebutts my point. Care to disucss with us about the cars relevent to this discussion; i.e. 530i? or any other mainstream BMW's?
I wrote: So you are more or less agreeing with me that the MB pedigree is about riding large in the backseat; so much for the sportiness claim ;-)
I agree with you on some points (the ones I don't mention in posts), but not on this one. Doesn't the S-class have an AMG version? That is not a chauffered car IMO.
More obfuscation. How long has AMG been part of MB? a couple years? What per centage of S class are AMG anyway?? TRD has been an in-house operation for Toyota for a decade, does that make all Toyotas sporty cars??
Also, is there any point in comparing the Maybach to anything?
What does Camry have to do with Lexus? Maybach is the epitome of MB marketting
BMW already has a 9 series, its called Rolls Royce VW got Bentley, and BMW got Rolls.
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2004/07/01/201922.html
Meanwhile,
"Sales of BMW's Sports Activity Vehicles were exceptionally strong, contributing to BMW's record sales. Year- to-date, sales of BMW's SAV models were up 64 percent, to 28,228 vehicles compared to 17,215 for the same period in 2003."
This basically means that BMW sedan/coupe/convertible sales have dropped significantly YTD, compared to 2003. This is partly due to the fact that the 3 is near its model run.
The above figures are for the US only.
*"BMW Group" includes the Mini, which went from 3000 YTD in 2003 to 18,000 YTD in 2004.
------------------
Worldwide, BMW Group (which includes Mini and Rolls Royce) have had record sales YTD, beating out MB as the "number one luxury maker." Of course, including the Mini in to figure the "number one selling luxury manufacturer" is rather silly, but sales of the Smart is included in MB sales as well.
Best place to look is on PRnewswire.com website and do a search for BMW. You will find the YTD sales figures for Jun-04 released on July 2, 2004. BMW sales are definately not up 17% this year if you take out Mini sales. The 3-series is down slightly, the 7-series is down drastically, but it doesn't effect overall BMW sales too much because the 7-series sales make up a small slice of their overall sales. The slack in these 2 lines has been taken up by the new X3.
BMW (excluding Mini): +5.2%
BMW (excluding Mini and SUVs): -4.6%
BMW SUV: +64%
When you think about it, it's not that bad. The X3 probably took some sales away from the 3 series as well.
They made up stale sales of some models with the intro of new models such as the X3 and the 6.
I guess SUVs are the way to go these days. Lexus sells more RX330s than the entire Audi brand combined.
ljflx... did you notice I mentioned the Quandts and not just Bangle, giving them top billing?
;-)
Did you see the comparo of the STS vs. new 5 in Motor Trend? Again they had a hard time knocking BMW but if you read between the lines they appear to prefer the Cadillac. Better combo of lux and sport. Some of the comments about the 5 styling are comical. As far as I am concerned BMW's need to go on a diet but the new 3 series is about to gain weight and look motly like its siblings.
1. MB is NOT comparable to the Camry/ES330.
2. MB's v6 is a fine engine IMO and the opinion of Ward's 10 Best.
3. Every engine on Ward's 10 Best including MB's v6 and GM's straight 6 is a fine and worthy engine.
4. You seem inherently unable to separate cars from engines, which I believe is the reason for your confused responses to my posts.
5. You are some guy on the net voicing opinions (such as Camry/ES330 is comparable to the MB E320) and making comparos (RL vs. just about anything) that NOBODY agrees with.
6. Ward's 10 Best is a respected publication and provides sound reasons for each of its choices, yet you continually disparage Ward's 10 Best on the sole basis that they picked a "lowly Chevy" engine, which you've never even tried out. Do you even have ANY PROOF that Ward's 10 Best is biased?
7. You claim that BMW underrates its engines once again WITHOUT ANY PROOF. The only proof offered so far has been mine, where I show BMW not underrating its v8 in the e39 M5.
Just came back from a trip and found over 60 posts in only 4 days away. Phew ! So much pics from Merc1 in an attempt to stage-manage this forum to his interests.... Well, here is my response: The CLS is tame in design, the low roofline will give some poor shmuck a headache trying to get in without looking. The rear is just terrible as well. Who are they trying to sell this car to ? A bunch of 30-something ? Don't think it will sell well at all, imo.
BTW, the BMW designs pre-Bangle (3, 5) are, IMO, the best looking cars on the road today. Period. Far more timeless than the wanna-be slick new MB designs post MY1999. Prior MBs are, of course, very spartan, uglified edifices, but very solidly built with high quality materials, and excellent safety gadgets. The electronics work as designed too. Can't say the same for today's MBs. Poor build quality, unreliable electronics, and un-MB-like poor grade on reliability. What's Schrempf smoking these days ?
Did I mention the LS yet ? Nope... No need to. It already trumps/whacks the competition so no need to rub it in
Taking a much deserved 2-week vacation to the Bahamas, by way of Miami, FL. See you all in 2 weeks and I hope you'all be nice to each other.... Especially, you Mr Merc1.
All manufacturers are losing car sales to SUV sales and BMW is no different in that respect.
I indict Bangle because of his management of the think tank. If he indeed had the power that reports suggest, then he is ultimately responsible for styling even if he never put pen to paper, hand to mouse. In any design scenario, options must be presented to the ultimate decision makers. The design director can accept , reject or finesse anything he pleases before it even gets presented. When I'm in this situation I make damn sure I am happy with all options, otherwise I run the risk of something inferior being chosen and I find this hard to stomach.
Yes I read August Motor Trend. I actually thought the comments on styling were innocuous but believe they came down pretty hard on active steering as I have. What also caught my attention was the knock on the 545's automatic transmission. But the thing I really walk away with from this review is that Cadillac seems have come to the table with a very respectable luxury performance sedan in the STS. Don't forget, this is a BMW sport package that it goes up against and I think comments in the review like the following are pretty profound:
"Unless your commute includes 150-mph blasts on the autobahn, the STS's ride/handling balance is better than the BMW's."
Now, sorry but I just have to mention this. Did you happen to catch the roadster comparison in the same issue? I just lo-o-ve when my car comes out on top. The Boxster S beat up pretty good on the Z4, Audi TT and 350Z. How's this for spectacular quotes
"In the art of driving, not one of the competitors here can touch the Boxster."
And my absolute favorite
"With a bottomless well of power, planted chassis, fluid steering, tireless brakes—damn, the thing is just brilliant ."
If anyone needs help in validating the premium paid for Porsches, read this comparo, it's all there. Cheap interiors? No problem. How's this for perspective
"The cabin doesn't seem luxurious for $59K, although you can feel the money in the performance hardware."
Rah rah Porsche. There is no substitute. And what a surprise... it's actually German, not Japanese.
;-)
Well, the latest JDP Long Term Rankings are out..As some can guess, Lexus leads the pack again with 146 problems per 100 cars. No surprise really is it? However, I was surprised to see Jaguar dip below the industry average..I thought they had improved in recent years. BMW actually faired pretty well, and finished only 3 spots or so behind Lexus..
Buick, of all nameplates finished Second..I did have a 1989 Park Ave and it was quite a reliable car..Mercedes continued to struggle, and finished towards the bottom of the pack. This survey was of Three year old cars, so whatever recent improvements MB has made won't show up in this survey. Hopefully things get better for them.
SV
They're not fessing up to their friends. It's a survey. If they had a problem, no real reason to hide it. It doesn't really matter anyway, as long as there is no bias. In other words, unless there is some reason that Lexus owners are more likely than say MB owners to underreport their problems, the results should not be skewed.
I think the rumor that BMW underrates its engines actually started with the 323i, which actually had a 2.5L engine. Because the 2.5L engine in the 323 was so close in power to the much more expensive 328, BMW underrated the 323i to make it seem like you were getting a lot for your money when you forked up for the 328.
With the move to the 325 and 330 designations, I don't think there's any underrating anymore.
The interesting thing about the articles with respect to BMW is that they both consistently say the cars are overly-designed, overly complex (with things no one wants let alone needs) and ride harshly. The "look at me" styling they say the 5 has would imply that it is a great looking car (if you didn't read anything else) but its quite obvious from the story that no one thinks that at all. The STS looks quite interesting and to me is the better looking car by far. I think the move to a more luxury ride once you have more handling than you'll likely ever need is the way to go in that segment.
I buy into the whole JDP scheme. That was the rationale for buying my first LS in 1992. Lexus had topped the rankings, though MB was a close second..JDP is a very powerful marketing tool.
On further thought I guess I'm not too surprised at Buick's fine showing. The Park Avenues I had were superb cars. I do wonder whether a 10 yr old Buick would do as well as a 10 yr old Lexus. Do they have a longer term survey?
I also find it strange that GM brands vary so much in reliability. With the use of common platforms you'd think they'd all be in the same range.
Does anyone know what's up with Jaguar? They'd been fairing reasonably well in the past few years. Weird..
SV
Maybe Ford should buy Mercedes...
The rankings for Jaguar seem to be inconsistent. Their numbers drop significantly with every new model introduction..Look at the latest JDP survey, they're at the bottom with MB. The latest XJ is a substantial technological improvement over the older car, but lacks the grace its predecessor. I'm not the only one who thinks this..Park the XJ next to the X-type and you'll see the similarity.
Mercedes has had its' issues, but they still set the standard when it comes to innovation. The equipment list on the Lexus frequently borrows from the S Class. I'm sure Merc1 can vouch for this. All this precollision, ABS, Radar Cruise control have all come from the MB pipeline.
I'm not knocking Lexus in anyway, but you've got to give MB the credit where it's due. They've had this keyless system that Lexus is currently touting for several years..Even the trunk opens fully, unlike the Lexus system. Sure they have their reliability issues, but if their designs were so bad, Lexus wouldn't steal them regularly. Now if MB could steal Lexus' production process....
SV
The Japanese on the other hand are great at taking an innovation and working with it and making it better..Keyless entry, Radar cruise etc. all apeared in Mercedes years ago....BUT..When they do show up in a Lexus you know they will work almost without fail.
As a customer..."Sure there are reliability issues" just doesn't cut it. It is not the Production Process as much as it is the culture that makes Lexus what it is...
Plus if you look at Buick's lineup, they use the oldest hardware GM has in the majority of their cars. No Buick is not a American-designed GM cars like various Pontiacs, Chevys and Cadillacs. All of Buick's cars are the most home-grown products GM has to offer. The other GM divisions have cars from Daewoo, Suzuki, Toyota, plus some global-platform cars running around under various Chevy, Pontiac and Cadillac badges. This has to count for at the very least some of the reliability differences between the various GM divisions.
When people buy a Mercedes-Benz they expect perfection and only that, thus when a Benz has a problem (however minor or slight) it gets dinged on these surveys.
M
So I take it you aren't happy unless I'm disproving your various theories then huh?
M
Really? I'm curious to know how so? Lexus is only one that follows, usually feature for feature with Mercedes. BTW, I don't call this copying or borrowing, just business, but to say BMW does it the same way Lexus does is a way off.
I'm also curious to know why you think the new GS is going to do anything more than the previous one did. One paper the new GS is hardly anything to write home about spec wise and looking at...well. The middle-weight class is going to be awfully crowded by next spring and the GS will sharing the spotlight with a new M35/45 from Infiniti (which is the car I see having the biggest market impact) and a new RL, STS, not to mention the two sales leaders the E and 5-Series. The 1998 GS made a splash too and wound up forgotten as the class moved on. Also, the E-Class and 5-Series aren't going to sit still either, they'll be respond to all the competition sometime next summer in the form of freshened 2006 models, especially the E-Class.
M
As far as electric and mechanical "gizmos" go, MB does seem to be a trend-setter.
Who came up with Navi systems? I'm not sure, but Japanese Navi systems are for the most part superior to Euro Navi systems.
Toyota/Lexus does seem to have a lot on their hybrid technology. It remains to be seen if they're all they're cracked up to be in mainstream cars.
Really? If this was entirely true Lexus would be using a radar-based cruise control system like Mercedes, BMW and Jaguar. A laser based system has been proven not to be as accurate or effective. Please tell me how Lexus made keyless entry better than anyone else when their system works just all the others? Yes, Mercedes introduced Keyless Go in 2001 and it has a few problem at first, but it has long been since cleared up, that was three years ago, and Lexus adopted the feature for 2004. I'm really willing to listen as to how Lexus made this system better since Mercedes has long ago worked the bugs out of their system, like back in the beginning of 2002...so if there is something else Lexus has done beside improve on MB's initial introduction of the system (as far as reliability is concerned) I'd like to hear.
M
Some of this has to do with the European dismissing them because they could just go to the same suppliers like Pioneer that Acura goes to and wala they'd have the same type of system.
As far as Hybrids go I'm really curious to see what happens with them. I personally don't see the point of a 400+ hp Lexus when this group detest the mere mention of a hi-po car as being something to aspire to. Secondly to worry about fuel economy with a 400-500hp car is just well to much to me. I'll be the first one to admit Lexus is worth something if the produce a 500hp car than can perform with the best and still get 50 MPG, I personally don't see it happening.
M