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This is incorrect my friend. For MY 2004 both Lexus (RX330) and BMW (3 and 5-Series) both offer/ed these lights. Mercedes offers them also for the 2004 MY on the E-Class.
Now if you mean that Lexus was actually the first one to have this feature to go on sale (last summer) then you'd be right because the 2004 3, 5 and E didn't go on sale until a few months later.
In either case BMW had the feature on sale in Europe either before or at the same time Lexus did over here.
M
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They don't need to build a 500hp/50mpg car. I don't think they've even said that's possible. If they can build a 400hp/30mpg car, they'll be on to something. That's still twice the gas mileage of any other 300-400 hp car out there.
Makes sense in Asia/Europe, where gas is $6 to $8 per gallon.
M
It should therefore not be surprising that MB may proceed Lexus in integrating certain new systems both because they are more willing to pay the price-premium to be the early adopter (there could be an exclusive deal for 12 months, for example), and because Lexus is more likely to wait and make sure the system works before adopting it (e.g. BMW's adoption of i-Drive, which is a Microsoft "innovation"). MB fans used to proudly proclaim that Germans were reluctant to integrate new gagetry because they wanted to wait till it can be sure that the gadgets work; those were the days when MB was known for quality automobiles. Somehow nowadays in the eyes of the MB fans, Lexus's use of proven electronics are called gadgetry-happy, while MB and BMW's adoption of non-performing or subpar new technology are called innovative. Go figure.
That is not the reason why they get bad results in those surveys. The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with, unless of course if you think a new MB is for looking pretty sitting in front of the house or the dealer's mechanical shop.
MB has always been the leader in safety technology.
Lexus is the leader in ergonomics.
The Germans was content with high prices and austere interior with stiff leather seats until Lexus came around.
What delay are you talking about? All three companies brought this tech out for the 2004 MY.
"The JDP survey is based on the count of number of problems per thousand vehicles, not silly questions like "are you happy with your new car?" both JDP and CR give out detailed questionaires in categories as to where the problems are. It's not about whether their leather has a blotch or panel gap size or any such subjective measures; a transmission/engine/electronics problem is a problem regardless what car they are dealing with...."
I believe that is what I stated. I wasn't speaking about the Mini - cupholders and Hummer - gas mileage stuff. The dependability survey is where the real meat is.
It is true that nowadays most of the electrical innovation comes from suppliers, but when Mercedes did the really basic innovating they became famous for they did most of it them themselves, like in the area of safety. Mercedes and Bosch today usually work 50/50 on things, both sending some of their engineers to each other's companies to work on an idea so it isn't all supplier based in the least. Not sure what Toyota does.
M
I really don't agree with this either, that somehow MB owners are more sensitive to problems.
In fact, if there were a bias (which I really don't think there is), it would be AGAINST Lexus. Sure, MB is still king of the hill, but when it comes to reliability, Lexus is the generally known king. And it is becoming more generally known that MB's have reliability problems. Many people buy Lexus's because of their reputation as trouble-free cars. Hence, a Lexus owner may be even more prone to reporting something minor as a "problem". In any case, I don't think this bias is enough to make a statistical difference.
"Far too much power than anyone needs and is far to dangerous."
Well, I don't know about anyone else in this board, but nothing about luxury cars has anything to do with "need." Why draw the line at 400hp? Why not 250hp? Are our lives so much better because we can go 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds, rather than 6.5 seconds? I have no problems with MB and BMW making 400hp cars, and I got no problems with Lexus making them either.
I remember the first LS400 had 250hp. Now, 250hp is what many midsize family sedans have. If 400hp is going to be the norm among ultra lux cars, then by all means...
That said, a bias againt Lexus on a reliability survey? That is far to surreal to me to even entertain that thought. They're they survey king and have by far (on these boards) the most survey chasers of any brand ever devised. This group lives to fill out surveys.
M
Yes, I believe that someone who buys an ES330 has more expectations when it comes to RELIABILITY, than someone who buys a C-class or E-class (which make up the bulk of MB sales), BECAUSE of Lexus's greater reputation for reliability than MB.
M
M
Ahh... I can picture them now. All those Lexus owners waiting by their mailboxes to see when the the JDpower or CR survey would come.
Yep, we'll just have to agree to disagree. As I said, I don't think any such bias will be statistically significant anyway.
M
Well, hard to say how much of an effect this has. Are MB dealers that bad?
That is my point.
"Are MB dealers that bad?"
Of course all of them aren't (just making a point in contrast to Lexus') and most are pretty good at customer relations, but I still see where a few vary greatly according to MB owners. The problem with Mercedes is that some of their dealers here go back 40 years plus and they are used to doing things "their" way. Lexus on the other hand has far greater control over their dealers since they all had to agree to certain things to get the franchise. Advantage: Lexus. Don't get me wrong this isn't Lexus' fault or problem its BMWs, VWs and Mercedes.
M
Excellent point. It actually transcends "everyday business", it's the manifest destiny of technology. Innovation cannot be held hostage. If the whole world doesn't hitchhike onto "innovation", then it's not innovative. The world would be nowhere if Henry Ford's accomplishments were somehow held hostage by FMC. As the players in the auto industry sometimes grope to stay on the leading edge of technology, the Japanese are great at separating the wheat from the chaff.
BTW, Lexus has added a radar guided cruise control along with its "pre-collision" system this year to the LS.
merc1 - you read so much into the power issues. The comments always were that with cars that go 0-60 in 6 seconds on 290-320HP and with great torque - why is there a "real" need for anything more. We are talking main stream cars here not exotic specialty cars. We also were saying pour the investment money into things that produce a better and safer car rather than even more excess power. Need should have a higher priority than excess. In the big cities wherte 90% of these cars are sold you can't use that power very often anyway. What percent of MB's or BMW's sold do you think have 400-600HP. Maybe 5% and that is a real stretch. So to portray that power as brand representation is one heck of a statistical flaw.
Lexus reliability - Now it's amazing to me to hear that the majority of Lexus buyers are people who can't wait for a survey to come in the mail and answer them. Merc1, my friend that's a comment that I'd wish I could take back if I were you. The Lexus stellar reliability level is what it is - the envy of the industry. Just accept it and move on rather than trying to defeat it with silly comments that make you look bad. Today if I were an MB buyer I would fully expect reliability to be a problem no matter what car I bought. On the other hand I'd be a lot harder on Lexus than I would be on MB because I'd be expecting perfection or near perfection. I expected it in 1995 and got it with my first LS (which had over 250k miles on it when I last checked with my buddy who bought the car at lease end). I expected it in 1998 with 2 vehicles and got it, in 2001 with 3 and got it and I expect it now and have gotten it so far. Most - as in 90+% of Lexus buyers expect the same and thus will naturallly be more prone. not less, to report anything wrong. Common sense rules here.
Brightness - great points.
Lexusguy - The RX was a major Lexus success and continues to be the class definer and leader. I tend to take it for granted and forget how it led the development of a whole new segment.
Lexus does have a radar based cruse as well as Laser based, I have the laser based system and it works great.
You really should go drive a new LS430 ultra
I don't recall anyone saying 400hp is far to dangerous or far too much?...
If Lexus does it, the hybrid will make it as economical to run as an underpowered cheap Mercedes.
I can only speak for myself..But..If I had done my research and purchased an S Class Sedan, I would know I should expect electrical problems my expectations would be relatively low....
On the other hand I bought an LS and expect the car to be completely trouble free and expect to get GREAT SERVICE in the unlikely event anything does happen to it...MY EXPECTATIONS ARE VERY HIGH...I would whine like crazy on every survay I would find if my LS EVER left me stranded anywhere.
Most of the times different companies are innovating similar products simultaneously. This is a point soo many of you miss on a regular basis.
Having given further thought to Mercedes, I think I should amend my comments about people not having large expectations. There are probably many, if not most of It's new owners who buy it based on it's image of quality, they are surprised when they have problems and do rate it harshly in the survays...However that would also be true of all LS owners.
For example, in an earlier post it was said:
"I mean isn't a Lexus buyer used to fast and convient service more apt to overlook a minor problem than a Benz buyer with the same minor problem who's dealer ticked him off by not handling it properly the first time or in a timely manner? This type of scenario doesn't make a difference? I think it does."
The implication is that this poster's scenario was possible and wasn't accounted for in the survey. And, that revealing of this insight should make everyone wonder if the surveys weren't somehow misleading us all.
The insight is speculative and unsupported by real information.
I haven't seen any survey data to indicate that Lexus service is fast or convenient in general, or faster and more convenient than other brands. If that's true that might be why they get kudos. But there is data that says that Lexus customes are more satisfied with their dealer experieces than Benz.
There's no data that I am aware of that says that makes the Lexus owners more or less likely to overlook a problem.
More importantly there's no data that I am aware of that says that Lexus and Benz have the same problems.
There is data that says Benz owners report between 2 and 3 times more problems. With the Poisson distribution that tends to apply to these kinds of defects, the probablities that Benz owners will see their dealers for problems many times during ownership is MUCH higher than Lexus owners.
With 2 to 3 times more problems, I would be surprised to find that these are the same kinds of problems as the Lexus owners experience, but happening at 2 or 3 times the frequency.
I'm going to surprise you and the board here, but Lenn probably remembers my positon on this from a few years back.........its pure arrogance and dissmissive behavior and/or the U.S. arms of the German luxury makers not having their parent's full attention in Germany. I've said for years they need to start tailoring their cars more to the US market when it comes to details like that.
Mercedes-Benz has one available in the 2003+ E-Class, but not on any other product. For years Mercedes-Benzes didn't have any in-dash CD players in any of their cars. The 2003 S-Class, CL and SL were the first ones to offer this along with the 2003 E-Class that has a single+ 6CD changer. Amazingly, astonshingly, help me out here...the 2004 C-Class, CLK and SLK still don't have an in-dash CD player of any type. The 2005 C-Class now has a single in-dash CD player. The 2005 CLK gets one as does the new 2005 SLK so Mercedes has managed to still come up behind the Japanese cars in this regard. Go figure.
Most BMWs have a single slot CD player now with a changer either in the glovebox or somewhere else, I honestly forget.
The most perplexing case is Audi. For 2004 all of their cars had a standard in-dash 6-disc CD player, but for 2005 they are going back in the glovebox! They did this is the name of style in the A8 I think and simply because the new A6's interior is so cluttered, a complete reversal of the 1998-2004 A6's interior.
The CL600 - "That much horsepower in a 2.5 ton car is just dangerous and stupid."
So when Lexus does it with the oh-so-often-hyped-upcoming LS500GT (Car and Driver says 500hp at least) it will be just as stupid and dangerous right? Where do we draw the line, 400, 500 or 600?? I guess wherever Lexus tops out at will be repectable and prudent. Please don't let me down by saying yes to that.
ljflx,
"merc1 - you read so much into the power issues. The comments always were that with cars that go 0-60 in 6 seconds on 290-320HP and with great torque - why is there a "real" need for anything more. We are talking main stream cars here not exotic specialty cars. We also were saying pour the investment money into things that produce a better and safer car rather than even more excess power. Need should have a higher priority than excess. In the big cities wherte 90% of these cars are sold you can't use that power very often anyway. What percent of MB's or BMW's sold do you think have 400-600HP. Maybe 5% and that is a real stretch. So to portray that power as brand representation is one heck of a statistical flaw."
Ok I'm trying to follow all of that double talk. First off, nobody said or portrayed that 400-600hp models represent anything even close to a majority of BMWs or Mercedes sold, where you got that from I don't know. Basically what you're saying otherwise is that 400+ hp is pretty much useless right? If so why is a rumored 500hp Lexus LS500 (a sedan not a specialty car) hyped like the second coming of the automobile? BTW, it doesn't take much money to develop more power in most cases. It is hardly a big resource drain.
" Now it's amazing to me to hear that the majority of Lexus buyers are people who can't wait for a survey to come in the mail and answer them."
Stay with me here, I meant on this board sir. Please lets not get into comments we wish we could take back from other posters. Where did anyone try to defeat or dispute Lexus' reliability? What one is allowed speculate in favor of Lexus and others aren't when it comes to how people fill out surveys? Come on now.
michael_mattox,
You mean to tell me they have both a radar-based and a laser-based cruise control system on offer at the same time? Didn't know that. Doesn't make much sense either if that is true, I don't know. I do know that a radar-based system is superior. You'll love this...on some Sundays I check out the lots here and the Lexus dealer here is moving to a new location (read bigger) and he has not a single LS430 or any type on his lot, not a one. Plenty of SC430s and GX470s but no LS430s. Business is good in luxurycarland.
M
You other Lexus guys will love this. The 2005 SL joins the 2003 S, CL, and E with a DVD-based Nav system. The 2005 C, SLK and CLK also get DVD navs. Gee whiz they're trying to get there.
M
Wrong on both counts. People pay big bucks and expect perfection in return for their money are buying Lexus. Over the past decade, Benz has become synonymous with big expensive liability (not reliability ;-) While buyers of an ES330 might be an upward mobile young professional who have to have the car for commute, the buyer of the top of the line S600 more often than not don't even drive the car themselves; some buy them just to have them sit in the garage.
BTw, Benz has hardly ever been the top brand. Rolls Royce command the top of the snob-appeal toten pole; that's why Benz has to revive the Maybach brand after half of century of hiatus.
Secondly Mercedes-Benz was indeed the top car as far as reality goes. Rolls-Royce might have been the top "brand" name, but their cars were 20 years behind the average Mercedes up until Vickers finally developed a modern car in 1998 - the new Arnage and Silver Spur and even those cars would get their hood ornaments handed to them by a Mercedes S600 of the day. Back even further in the day the Mercedes 600 Pulman was also consider the best car in the world, over Rolls-Royce. I see nothing from Rolls that even competed with the legendary SL and SLRs of the 50's either.
Mercedes-Benz put everyone else on shelf for years as a mass manufacturer of quality cars until Toyota got stronger using their TPS system. This is common knowledge, look it up if you don't believe me. In mass market luxury cars MB was the undisputed leader. Period.
Only rich people who wouldn't even consider another brand of car thought a Rolls was a superior car to a Mercedes, everyone else knew better. Lexus folk knock Mercedes for riding on a past reputation and Rolls-Royce was more guilty of that than Mercedes has ever been. A superior car in a Rolls, I think not......it surely wasn't in the 70s, 80s or 90s. An 70s Rolls was a nicely leathered and wooded antique of a car and a complete mess, ditto for the 80s and 90s until 1998.
Mercedes reviving Maybach doesn't have anything to do with who lead in the past. Maybach is part of Mercedes' heritage anyway.
M
they're a tweener
Good Post..If I read it right you are pointing out how Rolls survived on it's reputation for quality for 20 years or more then the torch was passed to Mercedes who had actually had built better quality cars for years and it just took the public years to catch up...
Now the torch (the public perception of quality and style and prestige) is passing from Mercedes to Lexus...
Merc, I think 500hp is too much for a Lexus too. If there Germans werent in this all out war with each other to have their quad turbo V-12 be more powerful than the other guys quad turbo V-12, then Lexus wouldnt be building this car. I think Lexus is doing it because they have to offer something along the lines of the M, AMG, and S\RS cars to be taken seriously by enthusiasts.
Hitting Refresh after posting means your message reposts and it's very easy to never notice it since the last post you saw was yours, and the last post you still see is yours although it is there again.
This is something that has bitten almost all of us at one time or another, and if it hasn't happened yet, it probably will eventually.
Rather than fuss at someone for double-posting, why not explain that the thing to do is to use the "Recent Msgs" link on the page bar to redisplay a page after making a post. And the other thing to do is to use the Delete button to remove any duplicates.
They have the finest model selection of sport sedans in the industry. And they don't have a problem building entry level vehicles that are clear cut leaders in the industry.
I know that you're referring to "Nav" systems for cars, but give a little credit to the US Military and their suppliers. I think that's where the development of these systems began. And, we may as well give a little credit to the US taxpayer for funding the satellite systems supporting all of these Nav systems -- and, it's free to use. What a country!!
Life is Better at the Beach
Of course the Lexus will not have the same "nimble" performance as the BMW. It's not made to. But it does have superior quality, a nicer interior (IMO), superior navigation, better dealership experience, etc.
And the RX330 driven by moms who don't want a minivan stigma? A minivan can seat 7-8, the RX only 5. Lexus purposely did not add a third row because the vehicle is not aimed at moms. Moms use minivans to haul around kids for carpool and go out with the grandparents, something the RX wasn't designed to do and can't do.
Maybe your mind about the RX330 being a tall Camry will change in a few years when all Lexus models will be independent of Toyotas.
;-)
The 7 series is a superior vehicle inside and out. BMW has to address the criticism of the i-drive, because with $70K perception is reality.
Furthermore, I must disagree that Lexus does not have an intention to provide competitve performance. Why the IS300 or GS? BMW is the segment leader in sport sedans and Lexus has certainly attempted to bridge the performance gap.
True, the RX does not have a 3rd rear seat, but it's a chick car and a clumsy handler. It's like a fancy livingroom on wheels.
You're quite right about the Military's GPS systems..It was built in the old Cold War days. The Soviets had a similiar system and the Europeans are planning one as well. This is probably the one innovation I can appreciate.
linvinbmw,
BMW wasn't considered a top tier brand until the 7 Series arrived. This has been discussed only a few posts ago..You've simply ignored the Success of the LS series in your discussion..This car consistently beats its' competition in every objective survey. Sturdiness? Please..A SIX year old LS400 was proven to be more reliable than a NEW 7 Series..When I bought my LS in 1992 it was ranked as the quietest car in the world. (I believe it was later supplanted by the A8..Not sure what the current ranking is..) Which leads me to ask..Have you ever driven a LS?
There are a library full of statistics to prove Lexus builds the most reliable car out there. I'll concede the handling point, as Lexus doesn't cater to that segement.
The RX series has established the smaller Luxury SUV..It was really the first SUV to drive more like a car..It's a best seller b/c of it's practicality. Lexus has done a good job of catering to the practical consumer needs. I think the release of the RX400H is a clear indicator of how Toyota spends it's R&D money rather than some overcomplicated iDrive system.
Toyota is currently one of the most profitable automakers out there..If BMW was so "upmarket" please explain the presence of a 1 Series and X3?
SV