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Comments
Kinda like the handling and sturdiness is outrageously overblown by you!!
Not according to what I've read in regards to the RX330.
And I see the nimbleness, precise sports-car like handling is what people are looking for in a SUV!
Let's not forget how all the magazines trashed the X3's ride characteristics!
It's meaningless to me as a measurement of the future value of the car - which is what you were touting. That value is determined in the real world - 3 years from now - not by what someone puts into a lease today.
Free maintenance - maybe MB is dropping it because it was costing them too much. Obviously it didn't work within the context of the financials because if it did they'd keep it going.
Dont make me laugh. How old are you, 12? The X3 is a $45K bone-jarring bounce machine with a low rent interior that has been ripped apart by most automags. Its also TINY. The X5 already has less interior room than the RX, which means X3 is about the size of the RAV4, not the RX. How are X3s selling compared to RX btw, can you answer that one? And as others have said, sorry but the LS is built like a bank vault. You might win skidpad, or 0-60 arguments, but when it comes to body rigidity and safety, you lose.
And, by the way, dealers would very rarely use NADA to come up with a value. Bankers use NADA to loan money. Dealers use a Black Book that reflect auction prices. That's the real world.
Like the X5 too. Drives excellent. steering feel is best of all cars.
But I ended up with the Porsche Cayenne. Great for almost every situation. No need to change cars . IT 's sturdy, safe, fast , stops, handles, etc...
but needs to improve the reliability a little. I have not had any problems, but know of some who have problems.
Last year, JD Powers rated Porsche as the best car maker overall, with Lexus 2nd.
This year, its diff. Porsche has fallen to x spot, but lexus is still up there, #1 , I believe.
Still love the cayenne....and will not trade it for anything....
Just so you know about the pricing, which you are completely wrong about, the base price on a 2.5 X3 is about 31 grand and reasonably equipped is about 36 or so. The 3.0 base price is about 35 grand and reasonably equipped is about 40 grand. So, I don't know where you're coming from with the $45k number. The body length of the RX is about 6 inches more than the X3 but the wheelbase is about 4 inches shorter in the Lexus (hence, better handling and a much better 4 wheel drive technology). The body width of the two are within an inch of each other. The heighth is nearly identical. So, where does the term "tiny" come in? Futhermore, the X3 has more interior cargo room than the X5 as they are two totally different vehicles.
Certainly, I can answer the question of how are they selling in comparison. The RX sells nearly 10,000 units per month. The X3 is selling about 2500 per month. The combined sales of the X3 and X5 are still about 2000 units per month less than the RX. Lexus has a strong hold on the market but the X3 is a superior driver.
BMW's volume leader obviously is the 3 series where they dominate the segment. The IS300 was introduced to be a 3 series beater.....last month the IS300 sold 1092 units and the 3 series sold 11,001.
So...........
No, dealers use NADA guides as well as auction guides to appraise trade-ins.
If the 3-series is better than the IS300 because of sales, by your own logic, then the LS430 must be better than the 7-series, and the RX-better than either the X3 or X5.
Thank you...You made virtually all my points...Yes, you did try to spinn some points be we can all see through that. The inexcapable conclusion is that unless you want to speed on twisty roads the Lexus is the superior car both inside and out....The only exception is for people who prize a car that is devoted to handling...which is probable fairly rare in the Luxury Car segment.
The BMW 7 series is not superior to Lexus inside and out..(PS I interpert inside and out to mean the entire care)
I don't think I mentioned style...However I would NOTE: that back in Mercedes hayday they weren't exactly noted for style. Now it seems that Style has over taken quality at Mercedes...FORM OVER FUNCTION.
I found 1 2001 BMW 740il for sale at my local BMW dealer(certified) with 31K miles @ $40K.
I found 2 2001 LS430s for sale at my local Lexus dealer(both certified). One has 36K miles and is selling for $45K and one has 24K miles and is selling for $47K.
Now, if you take a MSRP of $65K for the 2001 740i(which I think is accurate) since it doesn't seem to have every option, you get a resale value of approx. 61%
Meanwhile if you take the MSRP of the LS430 with higher miles(36K miles) and use a sticker price when new of $62K(which I think is accurate) you a resale value percentage of 72%.
Seems like a rather wide disparity on planet reality.
Livinbmw... hang in there... they'll keep going as long as you can. The question is how long you can last, especially with Lexusguy comin' out of his mouth sideways. One more day of this and you're hired for the 8 to 4 shift. Merc has the 12-8 graveyard covered.
4PM-12midnight shift
Must have BS in JDP and CR Statistics
Salary commensurate with experience
The allstar game was awful.
Again you state baseless opinions..Where are the facts to back this up? I think the RX has been widely praised across the board in the auto mags. It's not like the typical SUV owner is looking for a high performance truck! The RX is giving the public what it wants, as evidenced by the sales. Even if they were, get a Porsche for pete's sake. I'm sure a Cayenne will outperform anything else.
As for the residuals argument. The depreciation stats are determined by what the market is willing to pay, not what the Lease contract states. Have a look at the used car listings for a true representative sample. I had this argument with a Jaguar dealer last week, and in the end they had to concede I was right.
As far as NADA, the Lexus dealer seems to use something new everytime I go there. The Herb Chambers dealer nearby actually uses Kelley Blue Book. Oddly enough they actually invite you to look up the car's value on their terminal. Maybe it varies by dealer. Go figure.
I'm sure the host is going to intervene at this point and tell us all to cool it. So on anoter note...Is it me, or am I seeing a higher percentage of female drivers in the high end cars? I've seen scores of women driving XJ8's, LS430's and even S class cars. What do you all think?
SV
Maybe, consider that luxury is the easier part of the equation. Jaguar has a high luxury feel and so does Saab to a certain extent. But, how tought is it to slap a bunch of shiny wood on a car with some chrome and a bundle of techno gadget features compared to coming up with the "ultimate" in driving machines?
Look, you guys are driving good cars in those toyotas, no doubt. But, why get bothered about the fact that BMW's are by far and away the true driver's choice (does lexus offer a stick in anything?).
questions.........
Saab has a high luxury feel? You're joking right?
"But, why get bothered about the fact that BMW's are by far and away the true driver's choice (does lexus offer a stick in anything?)."
It seems like you're the one that is bothered by Lexus.
"But, how tought is it to slap a bunch of shiny wood on a car with some chrome and a bundle of techno gadget features compared to coming up with the "ultimate" in driving machines?"
Very "tought", apparently, as nobody else seems to be able to match Audi and Lexus in that department. Nobody else, including BMW, has mastered the perfect balance of rich woods, razer thin panel gaps, and spotless build quality. Just because the commercial says BMW's are the best, doesnt necessarily make it true. Believe it or not, those BMW commercials tend to be rather BMW biased.
I'm all for getting a Cayenne over an RX. The RX is giving the public what it wants as you say, but then again the Big Mac is probably the best selling burger, too. Why a jaguar dealer would want to get in a resale debate with a savvy shopper is beyond me.
As for the Kelly Blue Book thing, I think that KBB is very dealer friendly. In fact, it seems that what they list trade-in value for is often a favorable # for the dealer and may even equal what a wholesale appraisal would be. Black Book is the bible for cash values based on auction transactions.
I didn't catch the commercial where BMW said they were the best. I do recall the tag line "Ultimate Driving Machine", and my 100% agreement will be reinforced on the drive home in about 4 hours.
IOW, as predicted, the host is stepping in now to say cool it.
We're all making a living and considering that many of us own these cars, we sure make a good one. I am close to early retirement hence my ample time to engage in these pointless discussions. Like many here, my Lexi are something I take pride in.
I have to agree with you on the Jaguar point. The XJ8 has a wonderful cabin, but has pretty good performance specs too (Especially the XJR) I don't think Jaguar caters to the Buick crowd. Their styling is alot better than what Bangle has come up with. I think they are somewhere between BMW and MB in terms of performance and luxury.
I think the board is taking issue with your relentless bashing of Lexus..You've ignored critical points such as dependability and high end electronics and safety systems. Mercedes is probably the most innovative of the bunch, but Lexus makes cars that feature superior ergonomics, electronics, and a good combination of performance and Luxury..
In your quest to characterize the "Ultimate" driver's car..Remember, Lexus isn't a niche market player. Hence they design functional cars that appeal to the general public's needs. If you want custom, get a M5, XJR or AMG MB.
I think Toyota is probably the healthiest automaker out there, so they must be doing something right. I sincerely doubt anyone will question their business model. We've seen the sales numbers and seen that the LS outsells the 7 by 2 to 1. Obviously the majority doesn't agree with you. Also if BMW offers the Ultimate experience, please explain the success of Infinit as of late.
SV
BMW sold about 18K units last month. but the difference is Infiniti is growing at a double digit(%) rate the last 2 years and with new and exciting products like the upcoming M45 they will be selling alot more cars in the near future.
I like the part about BMW not being particularly concerned about them. That is a foolish statement. It's kind of like when Mercedes fans weren't concerned about Lexus in the late 80s, again thinking, they wouldn't compete with Benz.
"Ultimate Driving Machine"? I would be more apt to put that with a Porsche 911.
This whole conversation built steam from the point where I stated that BMW's are more sturdy and better drivers. I'll modestly stand by that.
I'm sorry and don't want to offend anyone but the cadillac is no comparison to a 5. NO COMPARISON. The day that GM produces anything that is truly comparable to a BMW is the day that I buy one. Cadillac, geez, why even bring them up? The 7 has sold more than any previous 7. So, that sounds like pretty good reception. The 5 is the best car in the segment, still, but by a larger margin (remember Consumer Reports Magazine, BIG pro-toyota people, said the best car that they've ever tested was the 530i).
Go drive a new 545i (if you can find one)to experience the premier sedan in the industry. You'll find that a lot of owners of such a vehicle will select the 6-speed manual because above all they value driveability and performance. You just won't get that in a Japanese model or, shockingly enough, from a Cadillac.
Good points, though.
The new 530i is superior in every way to the previous version. It's quicker, it changes directions with jaw-dropping efficiency, it's roomier, it's safer, it's quieter, it's even got better cupholders, just what americans needed.
Don't doubt BMW. When they bring out a new model they improve the entire package. And, they've done it with the 5, the 7, the Z.
So why does CR (which you cited first, not I) no longer think it's the "best car?" Me, I just hate the bustle butt and Dame Edna eyebrows and i-Drive and the crummy interior. I guess the cupholders make up for it, eh?
And so you know, I drive a BMW and wouldn't consider owning a Lexus in their present configurations. However, I would consider an Infiniti.
"Driver comments just after this test hint at our discomforts here—“lots of grip, little roll, and fast steering, but it feels so alien.” Another of our testers called it the “ultimate driving simulator.” The problem? There’s no information coming back through the steering. You simply dial in the wheel angle you think will produce the right arc and hope for the best. It cuts smartly when you turn the wheel, right up until—surprise—it doesn’t, just like a simulator."
I dont see the 545i making this years 10.
Did he like the way it drove? Yep. Did he like the ownership experience? No way! He described it as 'remember the saying Dad told you about marrying the right girl?'
He gave up after his occasional moments of 'driver's car' ectasy continued to be interrupted by extended periods of unavailability.
He now drives a totally maxed out LS430. He loves it, but for different reasons than the 7-series. He said "it finally dawned on me that the reason for being in the car wasn't to look for the next off-ramp that I could blast through at 80 mph while no one was looking. Now I drive to work in an automobile as close to perfection as is possible. It's polite, handles great in the real world, responsive to my every whim and brimming with technology that actually works. Why in the hell would I want to throw myself at potholes on exit ramps at 80 mph when being so pampered is much more fun."
He get's it. Lexus gets it.
BMW is the Yankees of the automotive industry.
By the way active steering was Automobile Magazine's 2004 Technology of The Year for enhanced stability, improved agility and rapid countersteering corrections.
"the FX45. Ever driven one of those? Its got a 315hp V8, and will CRUSH an X3 when it comes to performance stats"
But:
Doesn't anyone care what a car looks like? This is about the ugliest, clown-shoe of a car, that's been let out of the pound! I know, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but what about the rest of us being forced to look at "ugly"? There ought to be a law!
Enjoy!
Life is Better at the Beach!
It's a little boring in a sense to say the top entry level luxury car is the 3 series, the top sport coupe is the M3, the top luxury sedan is the 5, the top sport sedan is the M5 and on and on.....
Happy Motoring..........I'm taking me and my "ultimate driving machine" home.
livinbmw - I'd imagine the 5-series or some other BMW is going to come over the hill like the cavalry to save the world based on your adoration of the cars. Please don't let it be a 7-series though because the i-drive may fail at the critical moment. You love your car (unless you need to do all this bashing to convince yourself of it) and that's fine and its the best thing that ever happened - for you. No one here agrees with you - not even other 5-series people apparently (on the new model) - but at the end of the day the only thing that's really important in the auto world is that people love their cars or the cars on their wish list. It's really not important that others love them as well. But somehow if you really love your car and think it's as great as it is there should be no need whatsoever to put down other cars or trump up your own. The car should have the ability to do that all by itself.
I think my biggest issue is the amount of electronics BMW and others have crammed into their cars. It's over the top and definitely distracts from the overall driving experience. I did like the last gen BMW's. They were great cars, specifically the 6 spd 540. I find the new ones intrusive with the iDrive and the Bangle styling.
I find the anti Lexus sentiment comes purely from German fans. I've never had a Jaguar fan comment negatively on my car. Reading some of the blurbs on the web seems to confirm this. Do we have to get Dr. Phil here to find out the roots of this hostility towards each other?
SV
The conversation built steam when you said BMW (7) was a better car then the Lexus LS430 inside and out...It is not.
M
As almost always...well put, and of course I agree. There is a artist sketch of the 2006 CL at germancarfans.com. Unlike the next S-Class, the next CL will be a stunner if they come anywhere close to this sketch.
"merc1 - You need to get Mercedes back into this. Lexus vs. BMW can't hold a candle to Lexus vs. Mercedes. There's not enough cross-shoppers and the two brands - as you stated so well -
play to different crowds."
Nope, I can't help livinbmw with the points he has chosen to argue with, and I don't think we need to go back over Mercedes vs Lexus. I think everyone knows where I, you, and everyone else stands on that one. I tried to tell everyone that the BMW vs Lexus thing isn't really comparable past a few common luxury car points, like 70 posts ago. I find this debate to be really boring to, BMW and Lexus are opposites in too many areas to give the debate some legs. BMW fans will never, ever accept a LS430 type car, and vice versa. Lexus long ago aligned itself much closer to Mercedes' way of thinking, engineering etc. etc. not BMW's.
Now if the Q45 had the following of the LS430 then you'd have a more even matched debate because Infiniti is really the one after BMW in the sport arena and they did bill the Q45 as a sporty sedan much like the 7-Series, but the car has been a huge flop so there aren't any owners around to take up the debate.
Like I've stated long ago, BMW really hasn't had to worry about Lexus nearly as much as Mercedes has had to because of their sport bent. The Lexus vehicles that were aimed in BMW's direction, the GS and IS just didn't make a dent and BMW has Acura and more importantly Infiniti to worry about. Will this list include Lexus when the new GS and much more importantly the next IS comes out? We'll see. LS430 vs 745i, forget it. I personally would take a S500, A8L, or XJR over both of them.
M
Reply to your second post:
You did mention style. Please try to stay with the current program. Who cares what Mercedes' looked like in the past, you're the one that said that Lexus is overtaking them in style, today, that being so ridiculous to the point you have to shade the issue by pointing out what Mercedes used to look like. Mercedes' styling stomps a mutthole Lexus'.
Please tell me how Mercedes better looking styling has compromised the funtion of their cars. I'll be eargerly awaiting something fact based in your answer. Styling has nothing to do with reliability or a lack thereof. Mercedes' cars haven't been compromised in qualty because of styling, such a statement is absurd. Say cost-cutting, Chrysler, too many models, but styling as the cause of their problems...please.
M
Although I don't know this is correct for sure, but my impression of Mercedes decades ago was a company with direction coming from engineers.
Their rules were simple: "design the best car you can, we'll figure out what it costs to build, and price it accordingly to allow some profits" and the engineers got to do what they do best.
Now, I think MB have gone the way of other big manufacturers and the bean counters have taken over. Instead of building the best, the engineers are likely told "make it the best, but keep the price under $x" so now the engineers are doing what they're not best at: accounting.
I own a successful engineering/manufacturing firm, and in engineering you have 3 options:
- high quality
- high performance
- low cost
and you can pick any combination of 1 or 2 features, but not all 3 at once.
Once the bean counters start pushing costs down, something has to give. And its not just Mercedes. How many Toyota owners want their old Camry back after living with the new model a few thousand miles? What's up with the VW ignition coils? How come the power locks don't work on your Subaru? BMW's i-Drive? And those are the GOOD brands!
Its an industry-wide problem, and I believe the blame lies at the top.
But if they suddenly built better cars and priced them accordingly (higher), would anyone buy them? (especially with the taxation rules favoring leases for expensive vehicles)......
I don't know what the solution is. Does anybody?
comment negatively on my car. Reading some of the blurbs on the web seems to confirm this. Do we have to get Dr. Phil here to find out the roots of this hostility towards each other?"
You're kidding again right? There are so many answers for this, but I'll keep it short. The two brands are compared the most because Lexus is Mercedes biggest follower, no other brand in the history of the luxury car market has ape'd so many things from another. A LS430 doesn't look like a Jaguar, and Lexus buyers rarely mention Jaguar. As far as BMW is concerned I'm not sure where exactly the dislike comes from, my guess would be the more often than not when Lexi owners try to put over their criteria of what a luxury car should be and it conflicts with what a BMW fan thinks it should be.
That sales hype from certain posters would irkel anyone when you read something so incorrect and biased. I dare a Lexi post some of that sales mess on a Cadillac board, you'd get an even bigger rise there.
M
In the past Mercedes prices weren't even an issue to most who wanted one because for the most part you could see and feel where the money went. Now this infatuation with electronics has eaten away the budget for other traditional Mercedes virtues, while draining more $$ out the back door to fix all of it when it goes bad. Chrysler doesn't help the situation, but there seems to be some real progress there in quality and product.
I personally want Mercedes to build the best car, forget being #1 in sales, just build the best car and price it somewhat along the lines of the competition and see what happens. I think people will pay more if they see they're getting more. It has worked for them all this time.
Mercedes already sells and builds the greatest number of highest-priced, mass-market cars in the world now. Everyone one of them should be a winner like the basic SL500, E-Class or CL. I'm not sure how much S-Class you can build into a C-Class though. Forget trying to outsport BMW at that level, build a mini S-Class.
M
OMG, you are so right! Theres a giant conspiracy. All of the car mag editors have gotten together and said, you know guys, every single model BMW makes is the best car in the world. Mine ran into a burning building and saved a puppy. We cant possibly expect to sell magazines if the 10 Best list is 10 BMWs, can we? So heres what we do. Lets make up faults about BMW, and have all of their new cars lose a bunch of comparison tests. Do you actually listen to your own thoughts?
Quemfala, what looks bad to you looks good to me. I think the FX trounces the X5, ML, Toureg, and Cayenne with its French influenced style. The ML looks like a minivan, and the Cayenne looks like a 911 that ate one too many Christmas hams. Regardless of your opinions on its lines, you cant deny the ponies for dollars are like nothing else.
4PM-12midnight shift
Must have BS in JDP and CR Statistics
Salary commensurate with experience
Hilarious.....I didn't even see that during my first read through of today's posts.
M
Merc this is it in a nutshell you just can't ride around in an LS with the windows down, blasting the Stones, Aerosmith and Lynyrd Skynyrd.
C'mon Lexus guys, admit it, you have every Sinatra CD known to man and let me guess you think the Nelson Riddle arrangements are the best. Here's a statistic for you Lexus owners have the biggest percentage of Pavarotti fans who don't know squat about opera. Just kiddin' on that one had to get Ljflx back for comparing me to Al Michaels I was thinking more like iMan or Letterman. Will have to work on it.
;-)