High End Luxury Cars

designman · July 2004

With the valets... Lexus goes STRAIGHT to the back of the lot... do not pass go... do not collect $200. The Porsches, Mercedes and BMWs... GERMAN CARS... go up front.

Whoa boy... they're gonna love that one.

;-) ;-) ;-)

maxhonda99 · July 2004

livinbmw,

Wake up! Cadillac is making competitive cars in the luxury segment today. Check out the new CTS, SRX, and upcoming STS. They look to be very competitive with other cars in their price class, and yes, that includes BMWs.

"Go drive a new 545i (if you can find one)to experience the premier sedan in the industry. You'll find that a lot of owners of such a vehicle will select the 6-speed manual because above all they value driveability and performance. "

What's a lot? 10%?

maxhonda99 · July 2004

"The 7 has sold more than any previous 7. So, that sounds like pretty good reception. "

Actually the 7-series is selling in lower numbers this year over last.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

yes differences do exist but they are by all means slight today. 15 years ago, there were night and day differences between cars, such as the LS400 was lot more luxurious than the 7-series and the 7-series was in turn alot more sporty same with the 7-series vs. the S-class in 1990 vs. today. In the last 15 years as Lexus helped BMW discover that american luxury car buyers look for a quiet supple ride over handling and today you have a 7-series that is alot more cushy than in 1990 and not as sporty as it was in 1990. I loved the late 80s 735i, it might not have had the power but it was a wonderful road carver(even by today's standards) and had direct/natural steering. Today, the various cars in the class, 745, LS430, S-class, A8, STS are all on a converging path.

"If you drove a 2001 740i Sport back to back with a 2001-2003 LS430 you would feel a much bigger difference."

What's the point of a Sport vs. regular LS430? The 740 sport has 18" wheels vs. 16" for the LS430. A more fitting description is the regular 740i to the regular LS430.

livinbmw · July 2004

wrong.......never said that.

livinbmw · July 2004

True, the current generation 7 series has by far outsold the previous. And, it seems that reviewers who do a long term evaluation and get beyond all the extremely over-hyped I-drive love the car (see Automobile Magazine).

Furthermore, it's not "bashing" of lexus on my part because as I've stated multiple times now I do have a sincere appreciation for Toyota as a company and its products. Anyhow, enough of that. I won't back off of the contention that BMW builds a MUCH better performing product.

By the way, Max, according to your profile, your putzing around in an accord. So, how would you know much, anyway? I used to be japanese brainwashed too. Experience brings wisdom. You're probably a perfect mentor for those stepping up from a Korean make to a Honda, Toyota or Nissan.

Now.......new topic.

BMW 6 series, or SL500?

maxhonda99 · July 2004

oooh...insults!! I like you style!!

And what are you putzing around in? You may say a BMW, but who really knows!!

"I won't back off of the contention that BMW builds a MUCH better performing product."

"...a much better performing product." can be applied to many different facets of a car. To most people it seems like what you mean by "performing"(which is handling) is not as important as other aspects of car.

"So, how would you know much, anyway? I used to be japanese brainwashed too. Experience brings wisdom. You're probably a perfect mentor for those stepping up from a Korean make to a Honda, Toyota or Nissan."

It's kinda obvious I know alot more than you do about cars!

"True, the current generation 7 series has by far outsold the previous. "

Wrong, I said the current 7-series is not selling as well as the previous.

ljflx · July 2004

Come on now, do you think the LS is bought by the geriatric crowd. Most people I know who have LS430's are in the 45-55 age group and pull $250-500k a year. Most, like me have young kids yet. It's a bunch of marketing garbage that tries to make you think otherwise.

Hey - I saw Aerosmith at the PNC arts center along with Kiss on their tour last summer. When Kiss ended with "rock and roll all night" I didn't think aerosmith could top them - but they did. Spectacular concert. Saw Journey to and while they are still great they aren't the same without Steve Perry. I have well over 500 albums and cds (lost count a long time ago - heck I created my own greatest hits compilation on a DVD with 70 songs on it) including everything the Beatles, Stones, Billy Joel and Springstein ever did. Plenty of Aerosmith, Kiss, Boston, REO speedwagon and just about everyone else who was popular in the last 25 years. But not rap - absolutely hate it. I blast my stereo also because its like a concert hall in the car and for that reason I'll never ride around with the windows down. Better to keep all that great sound inside. At home I use a Denon 200 amp receiver. Denon is awesome. Just about every LS430 owner I know fits my profile though they probably keep the stereo tuned a bit lower and have less of a music library. Come to think of it the people I know that have S500's fit the same profile to though there is one guy that is a big Barry Manilow fan. Don't have anything by Sinatra or Dean Martin for that matter, but I am a big Celine Dion fan and love James Taylor. He was absolutey phenomenal at the Arts center last year also. I know a couple of Clear Channel execs - even one who has an LS430 - so I go to almost any concert I want to that they sponsor.

livinbmw · July 2004

In '99 BMW sold 18,233 7-series, '00 16,619, '01 13,389,

In '02 the number was 21,990 followed by 20,473 in '03 and so far this year nearly 10,000.

So, obviously the current generation 7-series is easily outselling the previous version.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

Actually, it's 8,776 thru the 1st half of the year, which is off about 1,200 units from the same point last year. Notice the downward trend? There's a little math for you.

Where's your lame attempt at insults in your last post?

lexusguy · July 2004

Ouch, that hurts, it really does. I drive an LS430, so I must be in my late 80s, and to me a good time is some matlock, followed by a nap. I dont listen to that there kids music, its NOISY. lijflx, Im not sure if you helped my case or hurt it with such references as Boston and Reo Speedwagon. Designman, the Stones and Aerosmith are older than I am. If you had said blasting Metallica, Pearl Jam, or Filter, than I might've thought you were cool. But you're obviously not, Mr. Skynyrd, lol.

livinbmw · July 2004

paul mcartney, coldplay, pink floyd (old stuff, set the controls for the heart of the sun), Rush, the Cure.

livinbmw · July 2004

Take it easy, Max. It's still outselling the previous car like I've said all along, right? Sorry, for leaving out the lame insult. It's early.

pat · July 2004

As most of you know, the "insults' - lame or not - are inappropriate. Stick to the cars, please.

ljflx · July 2004

I like all good rock and have so much of it I couldn't possibly list all my favorites. But I stopped thinking of myself as cool a long time ago.

livinbmw - They are heavily discounting these days to get those sales. They hardly discounted the old model. I think what is really scaring them is they are losing the old 7 series buyers and are probably wondering if these new buyers will stay with them.

livinbmw · July 2004

I definitely agree. There are not people standing in line to pay MSRP for the next 7 that rolls in. There are no incentives on the car though, and even if you get 5 grand knocked off of a desireably equipped one it's still going to cost around 80 grand for one. That's the thing about pricing on these premium luxury cars, even if there is a huge discount, it's still a heap of cash.

However, the wholesale market is still pretty strong on the car. Maybe, not quite as strong as the LS, but still very good. Manheim Auction Report on 2003 745li avg. transaction is about 58 grand. Interesting avg. 2003 LS430 is about 46. hmmm....

quemfala · July 2004

lexusguy

"what looks bad to you looks good to me. I think the FX trounces the X5, ML, Toureg, and Cayenne with its French influenced style. The ML looks like a minivan, and the Cayenne looks like a 911 that ate one too many Christmas hams. Regardless of your opinions on its lines, you cant deny the ponies for dollars are like nothing else."

It's a slow day, here is paradise; so I'm about ready to be convinced that my sunglasses are affecting the perception of what is attractive or not. I certainly agree with you on the ML and the Cayenne (T-reg looks better) -- The Cayenne is especially more displeasing now that I know it has a "French influenced style". But then again, what do I know -- I've never owned a Japanese car in my life and undoubtedly never will! More for you guys.
Life if better at the Beach!

michael_mattox · July 2004

Merc:

1) My response to another poster addressed his statement that the 7 was better then the LS in every way, You response supported my list of examples in which the 7 was not better then the LS....Why are you spining your response now?

2)I have never said Lexus is overtaking anyone in the area of style..I have said that in the days that Mercedes was acknowledged as the best car around it had little style but it was bullet proof or had that reputation....Now that Mercedes and it's defenders talk about it's style in fact placed Style over Function Mercedes has lost it's edge to a car LS that is NOT as stylish but is Bullet Proof.

The items you mentioned...Cost cutting, models, etc....PLUS the quest for style has led to a company culture that has gotten away from quality at any cost to sales at any cost with the result of neither goal being accomplished. In it's hayday I NEVER saw a mercedes ad that referred to style..It was all about safty, and quality...Now it is all about LOOK HOW PRETTY WE ARE BUY US WE ARE PRETTY.

lexusguy · July 2004

You misinterpreted my statement, the Cayenne is definitely not a French car. I meant that the FX45 has a lot of French (specifically Renault) influences. The Toureg looks better than the Cayenne yes, but its still just a plus sized Passat. The RX330 and FX45 have got styling all over the Germans in that respect. Even merc1 has to agree that the ML is basically a yawn machine.

livinbmw · July 2004

BMW regional rep says that the 5 will be available with all wheel drive. I hope that it is the X-drive system that will allow 100% rear wheel drive on dry pavement.

He also says that the new X5 will have a 3rd rear seat when BMW comes to some conclusions about safety issues for those rear passengers.

sv7887 · July 2004

Hi All,
  It's good as always to read these posts..I like that characterization of the average LS430 driver..Actually I do have a collection of Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra in there. I think each company's motto fully illustrates what segment they're pulling for. Lexus is the Relentless Pursuit of Perfection, while BMW: the Ultimate Driving Machine.
  Merc..I've never really been confronted by Cadillac drivers. I don't see how they can even compare to Lexus..Even the auto rags normally don't. I'm not impressed with the look of the new STS at all. Maybe that's just me. Even in England that hostility between MB and Lexus drivers exist. It's quite entertaining.

All this rapid posting has me wondering..What is the one day record for posts on an Edmunds board? I'd be really amused if we were the record holders..It's funny how the topic of cars can turn mature successful men (any women here?)to bicker like teenagers.

Sv

pat · July 2004

Heh, I don't know the answer, but it HAS to be held by "I Don't Like SUVs, Why Do You?" on the SUVs board and I'm quite sure it is some number of hundreds, like maybe two or even three.

But keep trying, just keep it civil and on topic!! :-)

lexusguy · July 2004

Cadillac seems more interested in BMW. Bob Lutz has said that he wants Cadillac to be the American BMW, and Buick to be the American Lexus. The former isnt so funny. While I dont like Cadillac styling or its interiors, track testing has shown that the CTS-V and M5 are pretty close. The whole Buick thing is just funny. So far, Buick's answer to Lexus is a Chevy Tahoe with some extra sound insulation. Keep trying guys.

terry79 · July 2004

Just for the record I'm 56 and love rock.I drive around with the windows down on my 1998 740i as
Guns and Roses blasts "knocking on heavens door".
Of course that's because the A/C compressor went
out at 65000 miles which was a blessing because it
was working at 63000 miles when the radiator
neck broke spewing antifreeze and had the windows
been down, well who knows. Besides the summer heat the sqeaking,rattling undercarriage is
a bit noisy(they say the center tie rod and every
bushing known to man has to be replaced).I don't
really want to talk about the near death experience when the catalytic converter went out
at 80mph in the fast lane with no where to go. I
think I can get used to Dean Martin.

dieselbreath · July 2004

I agree with you totally. But even with their problems I think the new e300cdi would be a great long-term buy.

Another problem with the top end cars is that they are guinea pigs for the latest technology. You pay extra on the S-class for being the first with the latest technology. But I think that by the time it filters down to the E-class its been sorted out. Which may be why, by the late 80's, most car experts considered the MB E-class to be the best car that money could buy (sorry Lexus fans).

[an interesting Lexus note: a senior VP of a large CA company owned several Lexuses (Lexi?) before buying an older '86 Benz SEC AMG that was originally purchased new and customized by Olivia Newton John with the money she made from the movie Grease. Anyway, this long-time Lexus advocate said of his '86 Mercedes: "I can't believe how many features this old Mercedes has that I thought were invented by Lexus!"
Just goes to show what marketing brain-washing can do! ]

michael_mattox · July 2004

Terry:

Congradulations...You have become a lexus man...and 24 years earily..

You may be the youngest LS owner ever...If you will get out there and buy one in the next 10 years or so.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

You know I find the bickering really funny between MB fans vs. Lexus fans and BMW fans vs. Lexus fans. I see soo many driveways with Benz's and Lexus' in my neighborhood and see soo many BMWs with Lexus in it also.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

diesel,

"Which may be why, by the late 80's, most car experts considered the MB E-class to be the best car that money could buy (sorry Lexus fans)."

There was no Lexus in the late 80s.

warthog · July 2004

"You know I find the bickering really funny between MB fans vs. Lexus fans and BMW fans vs. Lexus fans. I see soo many driveways with Benz's and Lexus' in my neighborhood and see soo many BMWs with Lexus in it also."

Do you suppose the little woman is driving the Lexus and hubby the BMW/Benz?

maxhonda99 · July 2004

"Do you suppose the little woman is driving the Lexus and hubby the BMW/Benz? "

I was expecting something like the above to come up, because, frankly it's expected from some folks.

That statment is a bit silly considering I see soo many old ladies driving around in BMW & benz's who can't even merge properly onto highways.

And as an example, I have several neighbors where the man drives the Lexus and the wife drives the S-class/BMW 3convertible. So you are kinda making a generalization..

lexusguy · July 2004

"Guns and Roses blasts "knocking on heavens door".
Of course that's because the A/C compressor went
out at 65000 miles which was a blessing because it
was working at 63000 miles when the radiator
neck broke spewing antifreeze and had the windows
been down, well who knows. Besides the summer heat the sqeaking,rattling undercarriage is
a bit noisy(they say the center tie rod and every
bushing known to man has to be replaced).I don't
really want to talk about the near death experience when the catalytic converter went out
at 80mph in the fast lane with no where to go. I
think I can get used to Dean Martin."

Hahahah classic. Maybe in the '80s it was, but the E isnt top dog anymore. Also, the E served as the testing grounds for E-brakes, and there was a 600,000 car recall thanks to them. So there goes that theory.

livinbmw · July 2004

No kidding, I'm on about my 6th radiator on my '95 5 series. It seems to return every winter.

Drive in tunes today included some Bruce Hornsby, the CLASH and Peter Murphy (anybody know who he is).

The driveway thing is a generalization, but a suspect many of those gals driving RX's have husbands in 5's or 7's.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

"The driveway thing is a generalization, but a suspect many of those gals driving RX's have husbands in 5's or 7's."

Wouldn't expect anything better from yourself.

To go further, you're telling me my statement is a generalazation and your below statement is not?

"but a suspect many of those gals driving RX's have husbands in 5's or 7's."

maxhonda99 · July 2004

And as a note, I believe the RX330 is selling alot better to men than the old RX300 did. I remember reading the old RX300 had a high rate of primary woman drivers, somewhere around 60% but the RX330 is appealing to both.

lexusguy · July 2004

Yeah, you acknowledged a generalization, only to then come up with another completely unfounded statement. My gal has an RX, and I think we all know what I drive by now. None of my cars have blue and white props on them. Nor have they ever.

livinbmw · July 2004

Can anyone come up with the #'s on the buyer demographic so, we don't have to take Max's word on it?

Otherwise, one man's word is as good as anothers and I say it is almost exclusively a chic car (camry wagon). No disrespect to Toyota.

ljflx · July 2004

Around here you'll see LX470's, TLC's and the latest rage - the GX470 paired up with just about any lux car - quite often. More often than not you'll see a Lexus SUV with a Lexus lux sedan - usually the LS430 or LS400. But several people have S500's paired with LX470's and TLC's. What's the man's car - an LX470 or an S500? Neither. The truth of the matter is the cars are well shared and driven by both the husband and the wife. What is becoming popular - at least around here - is the RX as a third car doing duty for husband, wife and first generation child who recently got a license. The suv that blossomed and died so quickly is the M-class. It's hard to even find one around here these days. For whatever reason - BMW's - save the 3-series are just not all that popular where I am despite several BMW dealesr nearby.

There's even one guy who has both an S430 and an LS430 - but I don't know him. Thought it was someone visiting at first but I've seen them both about a dozen times on his driveway.

ljflx · July 2004

Truth is Lexus designed that SUV for the woman of the house. Remember initially that the center space under the dash was left clear for a handbag. Read that in several places and even had my sales guy tell me that. But I see plenty of men driving the RX. Never met anyone who didn't love this SUV. I request it everytime as a loaner because I enjoy it a lot myself.- particularly this new RX330 which is so much better than the RX300. Can't say for sure but it was probably planned or just became a way for Lexus to gain entrance into German strongholds. Once you get that taste of Lexus you usually want a lot more.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

since you're in the "retail automotive field" shouldn't you have some hard factual data?

you don't have to take my word for anything, just like I don't take your word for anything. My statements are merely based on observations-watching what people drive. And from my observations I sure don't see 100% of RX330's being driven by women.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

livinbmw,

Oh BTW, I do believe it is a demographic fact that states that the BMW 3-series is driven by more women than men. That must make it a chick car.

quemfala · July 2004

Max

"That statment is a bit silly considering I see soo many old ladies driving around in BMW & benz's who can't even merge properly onto highways"

You need to come-on-down to "old fogey-ville" here in South Florida. It's enough to make one weep! All the too-old guys in a lot of all too cool cars. The XJR's, SC430's (in wild colors), Vipers (mostly yellow), S type R's,; and of course the Bentley's, (and dare I say it) more Town Cars than exist anywhere else. AND -- not a one of them know how to drive! Pick one -- I don't care if you're a Lexus guy, BMW guy, and MB guy or whatever. It's all here and mostly all abused! Too bad, I'm still waiting to pull in behind one of these relics (the drivers not the cars) and accept an offer to take it off their hands because they think that it goes too fast (25 in the 35 zone!) LOL, LOL!
Well any way, time to stop by and see my favorite jeweler on Worth Avenue, to have him wind my self-winding Rolex. I think that there's something wrong with it because it keeps stopping, and he keeps telling me that it's "lack of wrist movement" that makes it stop. Maybe I should drive faster!
Life is Better at the Beach

footie · July 2004

I must be extra dumb today.

I couldn't figure out the post that said

Demographics Psychographics
Gender Athletic

What was concluded there? Were 51% of the 'in the know' men athletic?

While the women love to drive and are interested in getting married to get ahead.

Was there any source for this other than a BMW sales and marketing blurb somewhere.

I'd love to look at the original report unfetterd by strange alignments.

ljflx · July 2004

Being an information industry expert I can tell you there is no such demo as "athletic". There are some nice names given out by Claritas - the premier US demographer - as "fun" names describing certain zips like "shotguns and pickups" and "palm beach goldcoast" as just two of many. Check the Claritas website when you have a chance.

pat · July 2004

Please cite your source.

livinbmw · July 2004

I don't know if the source would appreciate me giving out that info at all much less sticking their name on it ........ This is just friendly chat, right?

livinbmw · July 2004

MUNICH (Reuters) -- BMW expects record revenue and earnings this year as the German luxury carmaker's sales grow by a high single-digit percentage, Chief Executive Helmut Panke told journalists in comments embargoed for Friday.

Remarkable to some for a company that builds such unreliable, ugly cars.

maxhonda99 · July 2004

Is it a friend of yours that came up with those demographic studies?

I can't see why your "source" would mind you giving out that information. Unless car demographics are controlled by some top secret agency.

I truly remember reading maybe a year or 2 ago that 3-series buyers were more heavily skewed towards women. could be wrong though.

Now how about those RX330 demographics since you claim it's a "chick car" and you obviously know it all.

No lame insults today, BTW?

lexusguy · July 2004

I've driven our RX plenty of times, so that means at least 1 man drives one

warthog · July 2004

Do you guys have no sense of humor? A wisecrack intended as a friendly rib sets off a firestorm.

lexusguy · July 2004

Well said. Livinbmw, sales and profits isnt an area you want to tout BMW's "superiority" against Lexus. Toyota makes more money than Nissan and Honda combined, more money than the big American 3 combined, and more money than BMW, Daimler, and VWAG.

High End Luxury Cars

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles