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Comments
The athletic classification is a BMW demograph. This is the "active" group that includes skiers, campers, snow-boarders, bikers, etc... notice the new X3 ads? Example, BMW has a higher percentage of golfers than any other make, much higher than Mercedes. That's why it was a priority for them to have trunk space in the Z4 for golf clubs. Did anyone see the ESPN ad with the stanley cup in the front passenger seat and the huge guy in the trunk?
I'm gonna love hearing you list the people who are "anti-bmw" and how you come to the conclusion that they are "anti-bmw".
I have to say that it seems to me that the BMW style is evolving in the Wrong direction.
Let's talk about our thoughts and ideas without categorizing the folks we are talking to -- it's not necessary, becomes a point of argument in and of itself and it distracts from a productive debate.
And let's face it, it's been the same arguments for at least a couple of years(and probably longer) from the same sides. Not really productive, IMO.
It's very nice to see.
Don't feel compelled to stick around if that's what you think about this conversation.
Don't know whether you know this or not but BMW puts most of its money in local marketing and local advertising. It's a real low spender in national.
BMW Centers spend a good deal of advertising dollars on local events like golf outings, open houses, model launches, etc....that they know will appeal to their clients.
"You are obviously unfamiliar with VW's Phaeton. Possibly the only vehicle you can buy that may be safer than an S-Class in an accident!" I'm actually very familiar with it, as there are lots of reports of it tanking both here, and in Europe. Oh, and I mean tanking in a bad way, not in a "safe" way. How about accident avoidance? Thats part of safety, is it not? How does the Phaeton's 2.5 tons of pork help it there? Even you can't deny that the Phaeton is a giant flop, a failed experiment by VW to try and build a German car with a Lexus interior and a VW badge, and there will most likely not be another one.
O-o-o-o-o Livinbmw
Pins n’ needles gr-r-r-r-r
;-)
As a Lexus owner, I have written my comments on a test drive of my colleagues '03 C230 6-speed Kompressor. I have also test driven an '04 LS430, and written my comments about the car. HAd long and extensive test drives of the LS, 528i, GS3, and A6, prior to buying the LS. My wife prefered I purchase the BMW, and I was quite close to buying it but went with my head rather than my heart, and bought the LS. Feel a lot better about that decision. I am only 41, very active, very educated, and a working class professional. Looks like I may not fit the profile of an LS owner (50-ish, business owner-type, non-athletic, yada yada yada). I have many friends who are MB and BMW owners. I have written about some of their experiences with their German cars. Overall, they give their cars mid-grade in reliability and performance. Talking of performance, maybe we need to re-produce an excerpt from the Dec 2003 C&D comparo of the $70K lux cars (which the LS430 won, remember):
The Lexus ride is unmatched in this group. There's a switch on the dash that lets you make it a little worse if you must. Go ahead, if more sinew in the suspenders makes you think handling is better.... Acceleration is brisk: second best to 60 mph; third in the quarter, at 95 mph, as it showed taillights to three of the four Germans...
That is the LS that is ridiculed here as a yawn and a boring car. 0-60 in about 6s is boring to German car fans. Even when it shoes tailights to the likes of the S430 and Audi A8. Boring indeed !!! Yeah right. Turned out the S came LAST in the comparo. That is truly a huge failure especially since many MB fans live and die on these comparos anyway. There is much that was revealed in the Dec 2003 comparo; how truly Lexus has climbed the ladder of success against the Germans, and how truly the Germans have fallen against the despised and much ridiculed (boring yawn) Lexus. Like I always say, MB execs are NOT yawning at Lexus now, are they ? Maybe they'll get their cut-backs from their workers and use these $600M+ to build a better car than Lexus builds. Guess, we'll see won't we.
I'm liking this Lexus F1 team concept. The post sinatra crowd could go Josh Brogan.
I'm sure that's what Bangle would be saying if the old world BMW lovers could trap him in a corner.
Reviews of the 911 are absolutely awesome. Seems like Porsche improved handling and made the ride smoother and quieter at the same time. That car is going to have a waiting list, I'm sure.
livinbmw - The old 5-series looked athletic, particularly in sport style - the new one looks weird to me. Almost like when you overdecorate a house. Plenty of things may look good individually but the whole package just doesn't come together.
I drove an X3 the other day, and I thought the interior was pretty bad. Both in design and in materials. Dunno what happened there.
lijflx, there's a strategy in delaying it a year as well. If the new LS is introduced for the '06 MY, then releasing the GT for the '07 MY allows Lexus to grab headlines for a second year with what is essentially the same model, plus steal some thunder away from competing cars that may be introduced for '07 also. You'll notice that the M, AMG, and S\RS cars usually come on the scene a year or two after their regular models are introduced.
Wrong. I most certainly wouldn't. Those things wouldn't ever matter as much to me as they do some Lexi on this board. I personally wouldn't care if they said Mercedes was the most reliable car ever made. I personally like it when they sell out and win mag comparos or are generally praised by mags on both sides of the Atlantic. There is nothing about JDP or CR that makes the heart flutter.
"And just to let you in on a little secret, you really can't hush up the Lexi crowd, just like nobody can hush up the "Mercedes crowd" or the "BMW crowd" and their infinite enthusiast slant to everything or the "japanese are brainwashing you" crud.
Lighten up Max, I was just trying to let livinbmw know he isn't using the right criteria here. However there are things that will make certain group's rhetoric dry up, styling, handling, reliability, price, etc. depending on which crowd you're talking to. Know what I mean?
M
Like I said before I think you're using this as an excuse for Lexus not having discovered any sense of style yet.
I'm still waiting on you or the other poster than has picked up your rhetoric to show me how a Mercedes isn't functional anymore in design because of their looks. This is the most ridiculously futile and unfounded Mercedes slam yet.
M
As is yours.
M
I can't speak for everyone, but I didn't read it that way. You're correct on this and I certainly think (and know) the Germans can and most certainly have done some "wrong" especially in the last few years. Not that you do this but some read these surveys and they conclude that just because a car like a Buick or Hyundai has less problems that it is actually physically built better than a Mercedes or BMW or Audi. There is a difference between build quality and reliability.
M
Exactly. Buick and Hyundai no, but Lexus build quality is every bit as good as Germany, and in most cases, better. Lexus' human hair thin panel gaps are the envy of the industry. I've also seen complaints in car mags about recent Mercedes having misaligned interior panels and such, where as even the lowly $30K ES always gets ooo, and ahhh comments about how great everything is put together. I guess you can have great build quality AND reliability at the same time, that is, if you buy Japanese.
Mercedes and BMW might have a problem here and there with fit every now and then, which is inexcusable, but an Audi is put together just as good as any Lexus, though per the surveys (and my experience) they won't be near as reliable. The ES330? Yuck, its the worst looking Lexus yet, and a complete nap-machine.
Oac,
Like I've said before, most of the incorrect information spewed on this board about sales, features, etc. (or anything else not pertaining to JDP/CR/WSJ) about German cars comes not from former BMW and Mercedes folk who now own Lexuses, but from Lexus-only owners.
This has been proven in your posts over and over again. Its all surveys and charts. Bring up anything else and it doesn't matter or is over your head. I'm still laughing at your comparison of MB and Lexi features a year or so ago, totally clueless as to the Benz features but ready to either knock them or say MB doesn't have something.
Oac I'm not surprised, you seem to pick up whatever else is being said after your own sales stuff runs out of steam. Quick the sky is falling the S430 lost a comparo! Yikes Mercedes is finished! Pluhease.
M
When we talk about enthusiasts Porsche is in a world of its own. I can't tell you how delighted I am that they aren't coming out with a sequential gearbox just yet. I brought the Boxster in for an oil change last week and out of the 32 Porsches I counted, 29 of them had manuals. Shows you where heads are at in P-land.
But this new 911 is supposed to be an interim platform that could last only two or three years. I know they're considering a sedan but I can't help but wonder what they have up their sleeve with both the 911 and Boxster. In any event, I think these two will always follow each other because of major part sharing which reduces production costs. People often forget what a small player they are. Even when they created the 924, they were very unhappy with the look as it was too square, not Porsche-like. They decided to go ahead with it for one reason—they couldn't afford to change it. Also, had Cayenne not succeeded, it would have been curtains.
The engines are torque-balanced and are very fuel efficient. Their drive trains are probably the best around. The auto transmissions are silky smooth and the gear ratios are optimized. Is there any wonder why BMWs seem more powerful than their hp seem to suggest? BMW steering is tight and precise. Front/Rear balance is nearly 50-50. Camber, caster and toe settings are also optimized for turning and stability. For years no other car manufacturer could match the drive characteristics of BMWs. They just can’t seem to nail down the engineering. We are currently seeing competitors give it their best shot ever and, indeed, this is a good thing.
Most BMW buyers are people who crave the impeccable synergy of BMW drive mechanisms. Dubious electronics and ergonomics are nothing new here—we live with it, it’s that simple—this stuff is merely a small stone in the BMW lover's shoe. To most of us the ride comes first. Always will. And why? Because to us cars are about driving—being one with physical forces, challenging them, controlling them, feeling secure about the stability the vehicle offers—not bringing your living room onto the road. If for one minute we can forget about the buttons we press on our dashboards, BMWs have always been about acceptable form, impeccable function.
Choose luxury first? Fine. We know the preferences here—enter Lexus and MB. But when it comes to performance sedans BMW is the standard setter and the standard bearer. They are the ones to beat.
I think the biggest problem working against the Germans right now is the labor situation as was broached in the "Critical Mistakes" thread. Wherever you have unions and social infuences overpowering, it creates questionable work ethic. In this regard the Americans are one step ahead now that they have years of experience dealing with the problem. The Japanese have eluded it because they have managed to maintain their culture. Not sure this is going to last though as they are infatuated with everything American. Also, capitalism is unstoppable. Like America, the world is becoming a melting pot and capitalism is the stove, the fire and the pot all rolled into one.
BTW, the redeeming quality of unions and social influence has been the elimination of the sweat shop and exploitation of the human being. That said, it has created a world filled with an incredible amount of lazy people and this manifests itself in inferior products. I believe we are starting to see this in German cars just as we did some 30 years ago with American cars. I'm not sure how this can be overcome or if it will be overcome. Is there anyone out there who has not run into a buzz saw when trying to get someone to work on your house? Amazing how many people are out there posing as carpenters, plumbers, electricians and the like. Immigrants come to America filled with healthy working attitudes until they become afflicted with the American cancer—money GOOD, hard work NO GOOD! This is why I am hoping, as America exports everything both material and immaterial to the world, that by some small chance certain Japanese influences will take root. Personally, I think the odds are stacked against them over the long haul and their economy will become a part of the world melting pot. I've said this before, mediocrity is in the cards for planet Earth. Who knows, maybe it's not such a bad thing if you consider some of the nasty places this world has been.
This was just a general statement, not necessarily directed at you.
What is more likely to have had an influence is complacency and lack of leadership. German industry captains are nototcious for lack of action, sitting it out not rocking much is a typical German leadership style, believe it or not. Thus they didn't see it as an issue, thus they didn't much invest into quality improvements - and given labor costs, cost savings were seen as key. That and moving factories to Eastern Europe.
So whole claiming "it's the damn left wing socialist concept of unions that kills the German car industry" is very politically correct if you happen to network with Limbaugh and go for good old intellectually lazy right wing clichees, there is no single fact that supports the statement, and several facts that seem to indicate it was good old fashioned lack of investment and good old lack of leadership, since they failed to prioritize quality... chosing to believe it was their core competency no matter what. The money went into developing new oversized factories in Eastern Europe, and aggressive model expansion campaigns. One striking difference between Toyota and some German brabds (Merc notably) is the focus on fewer models and fewer permutations.
Same logic applies for GM as well.
Lets not put words in my mouth...A tactic you seem to be using more lately....I did not say Mercedes was not putting "ANY" emphasis on quality and Innovation.
"First with the most" Actually I think to say Lexus is "second with the best" is accurate. Being First is a negative in many ways when a company rushes innovations into production just for the sake of saying they were first.
Merc. Lexus has no sense of style in the same way Mercedes had no sense of style back in the days when they made the best car in the world. Quality over style and getting it right with innovations BEFORE puting them in the CAR...that attitude was once Mercedes.
I say again...Mercedes once the greatest car in the World has slipped because they have favored in recent years Form over Function. They have favored "Get it first" rather then "Get it best"
What would be the German workers incentive for working hard everyday?
Unions and expecially Socialism Rob people of incentive...It is human nature, it is also happening in the US just to a lesser degree.
German work quality standards were based on a demanding, strict apprenticeship system that produced a highly qualified work force that took painstaking pride in the quality of its work. With automatized factories combined with the lack of foresight and mistakes in planning by management, what happened, happened irrespective of unions' existence.
Did I say it was getting praised for its design? I was talking about fit and finish, which has nothing to do with wether you like the design or not. The ES even though it costs so little, has spotless fit and finish, and uses materials that make the C320 look like a joke in comparison. Yes the C should be better for '05, but again thats M-B being forced to fix their cost cut interiors. The same thing happened with the initial ML320 run.
- four- to six-week paid vacations
- strict labor laws that restrict layoffs
- mandatory shop closings at 6PM weekdays, Saturday afternoons, all day Sundays
Here, read this tidbit from WSJ on German labor laws to whet the whistle:
http://www.careerjournaleurope.com/myc/management/20020930-boudet- te.html
By the way Pablo, I was trying to avoid political rhetoric. If you want to invoke anti Rush Limbaugh sentiment, fine. But for the record, I follow no one and weigh my own opinions. It’s called independent thinking. There are great opinions and ideologies on both sides of the political/social fences. There is also greed, and it has managed to corrupt at all extremes, including dead center. And if you read into my last post, you will see that I believe capitalism and socialism are coming together in the melting pot. Let’s hope that the best aspects of each will combine to affect the world positively. Although socialism must work to temper greed, only a fool would deny that capitalism is not manifest destiny where economy is concerned. There’s not a good balance yet, not in the US, not in the world. Long way to go my friend.
You also get different wheel camber, toe settings, and heavier sway bars and shocks. Not sure about caster. I think BMW caster is more than most anyway. In the case of the 540, you also get a higher final drive ratio.
Unions represent all workers equally...The hard working person makes no more in his job class then the slowest lazyest worker in the same job....NO INCENTIVE TO WORK HARD....Hence German cars have fallen off in quality dispite the fact that Germans are some of the finist engineers in the world.
Say what you will Germany is a socialist country...The defination you gave was for a communist country ...Which it is not.
In fact, on the new 530 I prefer the standard wheel to the sport wheel, same for the 545.
Unless you personally went to every car dealer lot and checked every single car (which I'm fairly confident you did not), there is no way you can claim that all cars had hail damage except for Volvo, Mercedes, VW and Audi.
Without facts and/or statistics about Mercedes metal, your statement is nothing more than a "Mercedes is superior" generalization.
BTW, the BMW SP option is more than a wheel/tire upgrade as on the MB E-Class.