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I went looking for something comparable from the MB carline back then. Maybe the 300CE Coupe? It's not any more luxurious inside than the Legend except for the plastic looking wood trim on the dash here and there. That is more than offset by the wonderful leather in the Legend, the self-presenting seat belts, and a much more complete instrument cluster.
And of course, our Legend has an excellent Honda 2.7 Liter V6 with 160 hp and 162 ftlb of torque coupled to a 4sp auto. It is very spirited performance wise, even though it weighs almost 4300 pounds (about 800 more than the 300CE ). The chassis stiffness is high and it's road manners are fluid and refined.
When I look at the early 300's, the fit and finish isn't superior to the Acura - MB was already heading into it's terrible 90's quality phase.
Of course, the Mercedes had a 'luxury price' - the 300ce was $57K -- more that 2x the fully equipped Legend L coupe with leather.
Just my standard beef here. Price doesn't make a car a luxury car in anyone's minds but the sales guys and their fish.
No way that Acura weighs 4300 pounds..
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Curb weight: 3170 Lbs.
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Sorry, I couldn't resist.
footie
Unfortunately that may be the best we can do. Sure is cheaper than service costs.
If power is a priority then sure it falls short. But it's right up there with luxury amenities. Pure luxury starts with plush, cushy, quiet, rife with features. On the high end throw in enough room for people who've had one Sicilian slice too many. It's there and power is adequate. It gets the short end of the stick because we are in the throes of a power war and consciousness.
Keep an eye on this new AWD system. AWD is nothing new but regardless it is still in it's infancy. What will distinguish it in the future is performance. The real legacy of electronics in cars is performance-enhancing electronics. In the animal kingdom four-legged creatures outperform their two-legged counterparts by a wide margin. The task for engineers is to figure out how to efficiently apply and optimize power to four wheels in a similar manner, a fairly complex collaboration among engineering disciplines and one which does not lend itself to immediacy. But when people start to notice AWD in warm climates you'll know it has really arrived. The RL could be the first of significant steps forward in this area. This is an innovative move.
As much as I consider the RL a high end luxury car, I will admit wondering why Acura doesn't answer the V8 call just on the principle of demand which I believe starts with bandwagon luxury buyers buying into the beating the RL relentlessly takes on this issue in the press. Too much attention is paid to categories. But it could behoove them financially if they just acquiesce, losing the tweener image in the process and beating the "big boys" at their own game. They certainly appear have the ability and marketing savvy but with the RL and NSX you have to scratch your head at times.
V8's are history. They really aren't needed and with gas headed towards European pricing, who the heck wants to pay more (unless you really are a GWB birdbrain) to get the same as what you can get with a V6.
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If you can't afford the gas then you shouldn't buy an Ultra Lux car.
If you can afford the gas but think it is your civic or moral duty to own a more fuel efficent car buy a hybred.
I want a V8...The wonderfull thing is I live in American where I can get one...and There is a difference between a V8 and 6...No matter the HP.
A proud GWB Compassionate Conservative.
Lot’s of creative thinking going on of late. First Mercedes is not a high-end marque, then V8’s are history. In another thread someone said the Cayenne outperforms the Boxster S and yet another that there is no such thing as car platforms. Next thing you know someone is going to say the curse is over and the Sox will win the WS. How’s this for a creative concept on a day when New York is undergoing a reality check go Jets!
;-)
Good thing the Yanks won.
Thanks.
On the V8 note - I thought the supercharged V8 in my XJR was very nice, but know for a fact the I6 in my XJS was smoother, power deficit and all. I wish I'd never traded the XJS for the XJR, biggest mistake ever in my car decision history. I never quite felt the performance sedan thing. I6 and V12 are smoother engines by their engineering nature than a V8, and thus seem better choices for a luxury sedan than a V8, but then again peer pressure rules. Fact is V8s are not naturally balanced, thus the coarse note at high revs - but people as a whole seem to like that element of coarseness, just don't claim they're smoother luxury engines, because it has absolutely no engineering basis.
Is "hybred" supposed to be a genetic pun or something?
Of course trying to spell things these days that are regularly mispronounced by our leedership or Fox TV talking heads is "day-rig-your" as they say over in Franse.
Pablo... I agree that bikes are up there with the exhilaration factor. I nearly exhilarated myself into the grave in college and gave them up forever. These squids on bikes today are absolutely nuts. One of them came upside my Boxster standing on his pegs and pumping the throttle. I nodded sarcastically and mouthed “yeah right” to him. He took off and had to be doing 130 standing up. I’m thinking good luck pal and may God be with you.
No doubt these are innovative and exciting times with Hybrid, CVT and AWD technology. I believe there will be deliverance and there already is even if we await nobler performance. However as a consumer I proceed with caution. We pay for the industrial learning curve with technology. When it becomes day-rig-oor as footie says then I would be apt to jump in. My concerns are early maintenance headaches, high prices, longevity and resale. History has proven that Day 1 is not the most efficient time to jump into products that are based on new tech.
That said, the promise of hybrid is incredible and it appears it will turn everything we know about performance and efficiency upside down. What I also like about this is that it is firmly grounded in the mechanical world which of late has been perceived as old-fashioned. Sure these cars will be rolling computers and all of this could not be achieved without digital application, but it is a breath of fresh air to see advances in technology that do not exist purely in the ether.
Ljflx do you have designs on that first hybrid LS? If I had my own business and could write off a lease I might be tempted. I only hope that they also nail the styling. Would be a shame if it comes out looking like the GS.
The new hybrid Accord at 255 horses hits 60 in 7.5 seconds, check out edmunds review. And while you have to pay $4K extra to get the 255 horses over the standard Accord, you get better fuel economy. Whether you believe you will save $4000 dollars in fuel over the life of the car is up to you to decide.
Do you really think that Lexus will have anything to match that? Or will even want to? That isn't their strength, and to date, they haven't attempted anything in that market..
I just don't see any LS buyers clamoring for an M5 beater.. Plus, they wouldn't like the ride..
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I see no reason to knock the hybrid venture. This is technology that is beneficial on many levels and performance is one of them, not just the greening of the world. It’s a story of more-for-less and this is the MO that built the industrial revolution and the world.
MARK TWAIN once said "I have no respect for any man who can only spell a word one way"
Albert Einstien spelled worse then I do...
When I worked I had employees who could spell..Now I don't care as long as I can get the message across.
What is the big deal with HP? Lexus has already announced a 600HP Hybrid for a 2007 LS model - they just had no intention to join the HP wars with gas engines as the hybrids are on the brink. They even said the price of this V12 equiv. LS will be around $100K. Toyota has shown a supercar (sportscar) that will most certainly be badged as a Lexus and will probably have that same engine and a $150K pricetag. The world's about to change. The hybrid engines bring power, great fuel efficiency, less dependency on the middle east and much cleaner air. You'd have to be nuts not to want them to happen. The moment production levels increase the prices will drop (like new tech always does) and more closely approximate gas cars.
MB is a world mass-marketer in fine automobiles, but positions itself as a luxury car marker in the all-important NA market, a "fact" that is clearly in dispute since they (MB) have only led luxury car sales once in known recorded surveys. I use "sales" here to demarcate pure luxury car makers - Bentleys, RR, AM, etc... where sales # are not the bench-mark of prestige, versus MB that uses prestige to hoodwink the buying NA public into what it is not.
Just had my very first drive in my friend's 330ci. What a car ??? I am a convert, pure and simple. That inline-6 motor is just unbelievable !!!! Maybe it was the additional 1" lowering on the car, but I swear taking curves at 80mph had absolutely no roll, and I took these corners real hard.... Rode around in the sport mode, handling was crisp, not Lexus-like, but darn great, I must say. What a difference ??? I am a believer in the BMW hype !!!! OTOH, the 5-series did nothing to move me when I had extensive drives in it, but this 330 is just absolute dynamite. I told my wife, that WILL be my next car, hopefully before the 2006/07 new LS comes out. I'm gonna get a slightly used 330ci (no Bangle-ised version for me) next year and get rid of my little Trix. And then by late 2006, I'll be waiting in line for the new LS.
Toyota/Lexus' is going to make a killing with their hybrid technologies. With oil prices nudging close to the $60 mark, who is to say we won't see a $100/barrell of oil within a year or two ? Hello China (slow down your growth a tad, will ya?) ???? Just about timeframe when Toyota/Lexus's stable of hybrid cars/trucks are entrenched in the market. The hybrid Toyota Sequoia is scheduled for 2006, the hybrid Highlander for 2005, and the hybrid RX due anytime from now. The new LS-H will probably come to the US by 2007, and maybe the GS-H or IS-H will be here earlier than these time lines.... Of course, Nissan, Ford and to a lesser extent GM will follow Toyota/Lexus, but at a very distant position.
An investment tip (unsolicited, so pls ignore): may be a safe bet buying TM right about now... check it out for yourself at http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=TM&t=2y
One would think Porsche fanatics will end up crucify Porsche if they did that! More likely would probably be adapting the Toyota hybrid technology for their existing engines.
But, hey, you never know.
What is going on?
What else have they worked on or are working on together?
Second of all, I fully agree with you on the 330. I have said before that in my opinion the 330 might very well be the best car on the planet in rational terms: it's built in such quantities that every kink in its armor gets ironed out over time, and BMW's 3 liter inline 6 to me is the best engine other than some 12 cylinder exotics in the car world. It's turbine smooth (more so that any V8, really) and torquey, and a perfect match for the 3 series weight. The only problem I had with picking a 330, which I was 5 minutes away from doing, was the fact that they're *everywhere* in the Bay Area. Phenomenal car, but as I have said before, it's a bit like an amazingly gorgeous girl that's slept with everybody you know - she's still gorgeous, but the desirability suffers some. :-)
I have to wonder if this VW stupidity on the Phaeton will drag down the A8 with it since, for all intent and purposes, they are the same car.
RX and Cayenne working together - an interesting link is posted over on "German carmakers - starting to make critical mistakes" on news and views. It would be hard for a lot of people to swallow but it makes great strategic business sense for large and powerful Toyota to acquire small and highly successful Porsche. A win-win situation all around but it would be impossible for Porsche lovers to digest in their lifetime. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it happens in the next 5 years. Porsche almost died 10 years ago and really should be a product line of a giant. In that way you can preserve Porsche as a pure sportscar and use the expertise on the main line of cars and suv's the giant offers. Porsche as nothing but a sportscar is what Porsche lovers want. But Porsche as nothing but a sportscar is a bad and risky business strategy in this technology age, which is why you have the Cayenne; and it's why you will eventually have other Porsche models the brotherhood won't be happy about. The more I think about it the more I realize a takeout by Toyota is a no-brainer.
VW should take the price out of its mag ads. I saw an ad recently that showed the car with a noted starting price at $66,400. The ad didn't even show a decent close-up of the car. That price is keeping people away rendering the ad useless anyway. It really is throwing ad money away since the cars are selling way below the price advertised. Just take the price out and replace it with something like "special price packages for a limited time - see your VW dealer". Someone at VW is really asleep at the wheel or maybe they just don't give a damm anymore about this car.
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Toyota could take the number 1 spot away from GM in 2006. That would be amazing.
Anyway, I stopped by VW yesterday to check out the situation. They quoted a lease price of $599/10k. I told the salesperson that I heard prices were lower without specifically inquiring about the above mentioned $499 deal. Then he volunteered that there was a price of $499 advertised in New Jersey but that it was a mistake said they received several calls inquiring about it. They only had one W12 and one V8 (sold) in stock. When questioning why there were so few he said that people were starting to discover it and that the 05s were due soon. In any event, they weren’t at all anxious for a sale. Lastly, I’ve read about prices going as low as $16,700 below MSRP, also that VW was inviting owners of MB, Jag and BMW to drive it for 48 hours.
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101091
BTW, if this car bites the dust early I believe it has no chance of maintaining any significant collector value. As far as I know it just doesn’t happen with sedans. And if it does, you will not know it for many years to come. Will be interesting to see where the bottom is if it keels over.
Too bad about VW and their mess because I think they have some of the best all-around styling—they aren’t knockouts but are simple, streamlined, and nonsense-free, both inside and out. However, I find the Phaeton interior to be banal the dash is too flat and square... milled, not sculpted.
“Someone at VW is really asleep at the wheel or maybe they just don't give a damm anymore about this car.”
Agree. Or maybe they are just not adept at marketing. Or maybe Pischetsrieder can’t bond with Phaeton because it is his stepson. Or maybe he knows it is inherently doomed so he's just helping to euthanize it. Actually, I don’t think it is doomed just by way of being a Volkswagen. I think perhaps they just never had good marketing plan and that Piech, Pischetsrieder or both could have been a bit reckless with the vision and less than thorough in implementing it.
And then conclude by saying this: "..... a bit reckless with the vision and less than thorough in implementing it."
Methinks you are too optimistic for VW and their Phaeton mis-adventure. Here is a contrarian view (surprise, surprise): Anyway you look at it, a $70K-90K VW (V8 and W12 trims) is both a "Reckless vision" as well as a "blurred vision". How can anyone imagine this can be anything but a disaster ??? What should we think of Audi and its Phaeton cousin/brother/stepbrother/ or what ??? And why should there be an Audi division if VW can sell cars in this price range ? I mean, how do you go from a VW Bug to a Phaeton ???
What-were-they-thinking?????
But I have to agree with you on one point. The Phaeton won't be a collector's item. That will be too good for it. Rather it should go the way of other ill-conceived and poorly executed automobiles (and there are a lot that fits this category), a simple blip which will be no more than a footnote when the history of VW is written.... As a long-term resident of this car and status-conscious San Diego, a city of 3 million-ish residents, I have never seen a Phaeton on any roads out here... Do they exist here ? Maybe. Rather, I have seen quite a few Touaregs in town here (mostly the slower V6 trims)
There’s not the same demand in the high-end luxury segment and plenty of competition to begin with, so you had better have a good plan. When you forecast sales of 5000 units and come up with 1000, that’s reckless. You see dreamers in small business doing this. If they wanted to reverse that “peoples car” image they could but for heavens’s sake, how about a plan? In my opinion this case has little to do with the brand and everything to do with demand and marketing skills. Piech has been described as a megalomaniac—reckless. And Pischetsrieder was TOTALLY irresponsible by criticizing the Phaeton concept not long after it was launched when the shelves were fully stocked—reckless.
In the 50’s “Made in Japan” meant it was as cheap as it could get. Shortly thereafter we had people’s cars in Toyotas, Hondas and Datsuns. Today we have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. Volkswagen does not HAVE to be a minimum-wage brand. But this depends on making it happen. IMO the Phaeton gambit appears to be more like an irresponsible one-night binge on a crap table.
"In the 50’s “Made in Japan” meant it was as cheap as it could get. Shortly thereafter we had people’s cars in Toyotas, Hondas and Datsuns. Today we have Lexus, Acura, Infiniti. Volkswagen does not HAVE to be a minimum-wage brand."
You point out the difference right in your own statement. Toyota went upmarket by creating a new name brand, so did Nissan and Honda. And Toyota did it smart. They knew nobody would pay $50K for a upstart brand in 1990 so they priced it cheap@$35-$40K and then as people got hooked they moved to the price up. VW played it dumb by bringing a car straight from $30K to $70K. Very dumb move, IMO.
That $499 lease - It was so low I called up a buddy of mine who is a high-up exec in the Ramsey (of New Jersey) car chain to see if it was real. It was. But the lease was for a limited time till today. The dealer will be at $549 starting Tuesday from what I was told but I haven't seen or looked for any other ads. He also told me VW dealers cringe when they get a Phaeton to sell and there is far too much supply and virtually no demand.
Well, at least this discussion is a change from MB vs Lexus. And by mentioning it I hope I didn't just jinx it!
;-)