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How a car looks and drives is not on topic, in the forum specified for that car?
If someone hasn't had a problem with reliability or idrive, does that mean they are avoiding your question?
Is being able to afford a $50K car a negative character trait?
If you don't like the new 5-series, fine.. but, what is your point?
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We LS owners do complain about stuff on our cars. Like the bluetooth issue, tranny issue, styling issue, and a few other things (check out the LS forum). But the *problem* is the LS is just an almost perfect car ! Now, show me a BMW or MB that comes remotely close to the LS's record of reliability and I'll eat my words. Some of you BMW fans need to drive an '04 or '05 LS, you'd be plenty surprised, I bet. Go ahead, give yourself a treat and take an LS for a spin. You have nothing to lose, really !
I have a '99 LS with 95K miles. Drives like new. Not a single rattle or squeak anywhere on this car. Purrs like a kitten ! Would I buy another, you bet. WIll I buy a BMW, you bet. I am on record of wanting a 330ci once my kids leave for College (5+ years from now), assuming, of course, no Bungle-ized version of the 3. Haven driven a 330ci, and a 528i, I can see myself in a 3-series. Easy ! Unless the IS350 bests the 330, then I may consider the Lex, otherwise, my money goes to BMW. Easy choice, for now. But we'll see what the future bodes for these two cars on my buy list.
You know they miscalculated when the 7 series was prematurely rushed for trip to the plastic surgeon for rear end and front schnaze overhaul. Remember the saying can't put lipstick on a pig. We shall see. Doubt it will make a big difference.
BMW royaly blundered because they knew all along the Japanese are nipping at their butts and will have better product to respond with. The new Infinitis M cars are just this. BTW, the interior of the new GS is a knockout expecially in the light beige.
More details here: http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101442
Is this exciting or what ?
However, never underestimate the engineering excellence from Germany. My e39 (2003) is simply the finest all-around vehicle I've ever driven. Will celebrate 2 years of ownership in January and I have not had the 1st problem surface. Has been bulletproof!
If the German auto mfgrs learn to adopt the cultural aspects of lean production, then you will see the quality rankings improve to match their engineering excellence.
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There were reports of "unintended acceleration" from owners of many makes. Granted, CBS did a hatchet-job on Audi, but the company response made the situation worse. You may recall the enormous dip in the Audi brand satisfaction ratings that led to a decline in sales that was almost insurmountable, not to mention the decline in resale values...
Good product and a re-thinking of their customer relationship management approach saved them. They lost enough cache to be placed into a catch-up mode with BMW and MB. Nobody disputes the quality of Lexus products and their efforts to earn and keep customers. MB and BMW are hanging onto their reputations by a thread and had better pull themselves up quickly before they, too, suffer a similar fate.
Recently, I had a perfectly enjoyable A8 Test Drive Experience and was impressed with Audi's efforts to lure me as a customer. Had Audi approached the past situation by recognizing an opportunity to win converts versus telling the affected customers that they were idiots, they'd have come out on top.
A little research would have found that makes from Chevrolet to Toyota had the same sorts of unintended acceleration experiences. Audi never exploited those facts in a manner to "earn and Keep" customers.
Friends of the family has a 1994(maybe newer?) LS 400, well drives like a 10 year old car. Engine squeals/noise from the engine, rattles on the car etc. Other friend has a new LS430. Things are going awry that shouldn't go awry on a new car. Yet both of them think of their cars as reliable and give Lexus high marks. Sample size of 2 is absurd to make generalizations, but out in real-life cars do have issues.
The only way I could see invoice plus 3K is if they have 3k of dealer installed options on all their 7 series... I doubt it.
That's why their is CR, JDP, etc... with thousands of data points from *real-life* owners. Minutia details about these cars reliability are generated from these surveys to determine rankings. I'd not take your 2-person example, nor Edmund's chest-thumping examples, as too much evidence to claim a car is more reliable than its competition. JD Powers, CR, and lots of auto magazines perform these tests and show without a doubt that when it comes to reliability, BMW and MB cars and trucks overall has more repairs / 100 cars or trucks than their Japanese peers such as Infiniti, Acura and Lexus.
Don't take my word for it, tho'.... I am just one owner with a single data point.
If you haven't already try an 05 Lexus LS430 with sport mode..I personally think it is a far more reliable car and even if you bought the ULTRA it would cost you less then $70,000....and you will have every goodie there is.
This can only force rethinking for the good. Merc, Audi, and BMW will not survive if the only buyers are those so enamored of performance and image that reliability and price are nearly irrelevant. Imagine how much worse and more expensive the Bimmers and Mercs would be if Acura, Lexus and Infiniti had never existed. I believe (and firmly hope as a Lexus buyer) that the Germans get their act together and really turn this around.
(Alright homies, let's not get nuts, just my 2 cents. Ljflx... woo-woo ;-)
And yes, definitely BMWs have always had qualities that make them not only redeemable, but for several buyers far more rational buying choices. It all depends on what the buyers value. I think BMW's I6 engine is the best engine on the planet, for one, no V8 can touch it in refinement and turbin-smooth revving ability, and driving it with a stickshift is *extremely* rewarding. Shame about the Bangle designs about late, but BMW will be back.
At the end of the day, it's all cyclical, and when it comes to corporate level stuff things can and probably will change over the next years. Just buy the car you like now...
Lexus knows its' market, its' boring designs haven't been updated in years.
I live in a rural area...and face all those elements...The car is truly like a vault.
BMW - The 5 and 3 hold their values pretty well, the 7 has always been abysmal. But all of this will probably change for the worse though with i-drive and the ugly new designs. Maybe kdshapiro finds those designs exciting but I certainly don't.
I didn't buy BMW for it's reliability, but then again I didn't think it would require 5 service visits in 3 years either including scheduled maintenance and a trip to the uh body shop - I bought it for it's legendary road feel and handling. 100% of people I talk to about BMWs are of the same opinion.
They are buying for the name because the name implies "the legendary road feel and handling..." BMW has worked hard to engineer that into their vehicles.
Where did you get that number and what exactly is the implication? I hope you don't mean only status because as kdshapiro suggested there is equity in the BMW name.
Whether this is a positive image crafted by the BMW machinery, road feel/handling or a negative image which is an interpolation of your own negative experiences with the BMW brand (status seekers, poseurs etc).
All brands have an image.
Of course image-conscienceness is a big part of owning BMW, or MB or Lexus. Why else do we have a "High End Marquees" topic lumping them together? There is a cash value for a brand image, even if the company eventually becomes an utter failure at making cars. It's not that great sum of money though. BMW bought the legedary brand of Rolls-Royce for a relatively paltry sum of $50 million, compared to over $1 billion dollars spent on developing the latest Civic platform by Honda. Through the car companies, buyers get what they pay for, the Rolls owner get an image car to be chauffered, which may well be good return on investment for the owner of the limo company; whereas the Civic owner gets a good transport.
The potential problem with BMW is the beating they have been taking at the reviews. Most people buying BMWs never really had that much time cross test-driving competitive models. The majority BMW's have been purchased for images for the last two decades ever since the professional reviewers in the 80's embraced the brand; often time company leases as fringe benefits to employees. Now, BMW must make sure the checks are indeed in the mail to the reviewers :-)
Brightness - some people bought them because they think they are drop dead gorgeous although the realize the underneath the sheet metal is a fine handling vehicle. I'm not driving mine at the moment as it's getting it's sheet metal fixed, so I'm doing a lot of talking about it.
"Through the car companies, buyers get what they pay for, the Rolls owner get an image car to be chauffered, which may well be good return on investment for the owner of the limo company; whereas the Civic owner gets a good transport."
Exactly different requirments for the ultra-rich vs the appliance driving crowd. How much did it take to develop the RR platform? Almost any new car development costs north of $500M these days, so the $1B is not surprising.
"The majority BMW's have been purchased for images"
Well that's a huge generalization and speculation, but I agree if we're taking $70K+ and I'll tell you why and this applies to Lexus buyers as well. BMW has promoted it's brand as a mix of luxury and sport, with the emphasis on the sport. When BMW buyers acquire a BMW they are acquiring something more than a Civic, where the name conjures up something upscale. This is the big joke in the High-end forum to be talking about $70K+ cars and have the assumption that nobody will buy just because they can afford it, which is the same as buying for the name.
To deny we don't want upscale items just because we can afford them is a big lie. But to deny that BMW has spent a lot of time crafting a sports-car like image is also a big lie.
That 90+% number was a conjecture on my part interpolating from the 90% number you provided for Porsche owners (for a group of owners that truly should be performance-driven), when compared to BMW that builds X order of magnitude more cars than Porsche.
But I do not want to be mistaken for a BMW basher ! Prior to buying my LS, I was looking for a *sporty* car hence my test drive of the follwoing cars - GS300, IS300, A6 3.0, and 528i. My wife voted for the BMW, and I was this close to pulling the trigger on it, until I got behind the wheels of an LS. I realised how much a luxurious car truly is. The LS is a car than wins you over once you test drive it. WRT BMW, My criticisms are NOT directed at you owners, but at BMW corporate. I am sure they (or their surrogates) are reading these boards. My personal feeling is that they are on a turn for the worse - design and reliability-wise, at the most in-opportune time. With greater cut-throat competition from Infiniti and Acura, and Lexus promising to mount a real (and formidable) challenge starting in MY2006. We'll see how all this shakes out ....
"You have to answer for Sonny, Carlo."
;-)
Tatagulas all loved you and you sure treated my sister Connie real well."
(The script if I wrote it.)
:-)