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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- =2005009b

     

    click the small pic to go to a gallery. Imho, styling looks only ok.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    "A-h-h Oac, tell me you are kidding..."

     

    Yes I was.... That's why I had the smiley face at the end of my post.

     

    BUT it worked didn't it ? It got you to pony up your typical well-informed and thoughtful post, rather than the one-liner you have been reduced to lately...

     

    Love reading from Len, as well. I learn something from him everytime...
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    It was eons ago now (in the time when Merc1 was a staple debater on Edmunds) when I posited that MBs problems run deep and they were not positioning themselves to turn things around. In fact, I recall using the example of the (then) 116-yr-old Barron's Bank (UK) which collapsed due in large part to the unscruppullous workings of a broker in their Asian opperation (derivatives trading). When the dust finally settled on the sordid affair, the bank was no more, despite such a lofty and glorious 100+-year heritage.... Of course, I was chewed up by the MB fans (mostly Merc1) of living in *sales fantasy* and other blah blah blah... I don't want to say *I told you so*, but Len is right.

     

    Just this past weekend, my friend who owns a 1998 S500 (the tank) told me he will never buy an MB again. This guy was a huge German-car nut (owned a 911 (sold) and a 735i (sold)). Now, he just purchased a 2005 Escallade with the 6L motor; just couldn't justify the additional $15K for the 2005 LX470. He's never owned a Japanese car in his life, but claimed his next sedan will definitely be the LS. His S500 now goes to his 17-yr-old son as his daily driver. Why, I asked ? He told me they just don't build them as they used to. Too many issues with his MB. For example, his rear-view mirror was toast. Cost $1100. Geez !!!

     

    I guess we'll see how MB makes these adjustments going forward. Hopefully, they come to their senses rather than living off their heritage and brand cache and do something quick.

     
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I am amazed that DC shareholders still keep Schrempp in the CEO spot, despite the utter inability he has shown to successfully tackle *one* single issue that the company has had since he took over. His expansion course had no clear strategy other than growth at any cost for growth's sake, and now has left the company without clear focus and direction. The strategy is not discernible, things within DC keep going on with unresolved ambiguities. No true synergies, let alone clear brand identities, have been developed between MB and Chrysler. The darker it gets, the faster Schrempp tries to drive. He was just quoted with his master plan in the German press today: more new models and variants. No word on consolidation, no word on commitment to their traditional core values (such as quality). It will be a case study in how to manage a company down, and the sad thing is that it is blatantly apparent, and yet in the worst of Gewrman management tradition no one does anything about it. It's amusing to see that, while Volkswagen do their damndest to become more upscale, Mercedes management is doing everything they can to manage their image down-market. The brand's "stickiness" in people's minds will only carry them so far.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    General rule of advanced business is that when you bring in a turn around exec, who's a cost cutter, then you have run all the other scenarios and none of them worked. The strong euro is also forcing their hand. I never thought that this was a Barron's because that type of thing happens (and is much more probable) in service businesses and is rare in manufacturing ops. When it does happen in manufacturing its more apt to be the Food Explorer/Firestone type of problem that can bring the house down. But there is no question that the MB problems are deep, worse than what is being stated and a lot more serious than any MB fan can handle or wants to hear about.

     

    Cost-cutting is easy on paper but not easy on your psyche since you are affecting people's live's. You always go with a guy who's done it or worked under someone who's done it. From what I read about this guy - he can withstand the pressures within the company but with a marquee German name like MB there will be tremendous union and political pressure to withstand as well. He hasn't been there (political) - very few have. To stave all that off and save the prestige of the brand name - knowing that they will have to cut back on models and options that exist today (otherwise you can't cut the costs in the first place) is an impossible task. That's why the status king days are numbered. And as I said earlier - the words faded and MB should never be in the same sentence if you want "status" clout.

     

    The other thing brought out by that story is MB's excessive white collar management and inefficient production. I said a long time ago that Lexus is cheaper because its a streamlined very efficient company with far advancced robotics than MB has. Hence the cars are built cheaper and with greater precision and quality. End result - the phenomenal reliability we see. When you overpay for MB it's not just status you're paying for - it's also all that excess management and inefficient production as well. Merc1 used to think MB charged top dollar because they could do whatecer they pleased. He never understood they charged a lot because they had to and that if the volume fell or the price was forced to come down than they were in trouble. Unmentioned in that story is that MB had to take back many 2001 and 2002 cars for prices that were lower than the residuals on the original leases (52% vS 65-67%). That is the Enron part of the story.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    You know sometimes you brainwash yourself and become a believer in the BS you are saying. The guy brought in is the exact opposite of Schremp's plan. The plan he has - re multitude of choice and models - is what they've done the past 10 years. I think both Schremp and his master plan are in their 9th life. If somehow Schremp prevails you will see the new MB head walk and that will only mean that the company's problems are worsening. If this guy prevails Schremp will walk or be forced out.

     

    US boards are increasingly being held accountable for a CEO and his staff's bad decisions - Worldcom, Disney, Enron - and need to pay with damages from their pockets that insurance doesn't cover . It may become a global thing in the future. maybe the BOD's will finally represent shareholders the way they are supposed to.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Not sure what guy you're talking about - Schrempp *is* the CEO of DC as of now, has been since '95, and has been a board member since I have business memory. And the guy's a disaster, arrogance combined with inertia is not a good combination. Typical German industrial aristocracy - they do nothing until a real trainwreck happens. Not sure where you read anything positive about MB's current direction from me. So if my points are BS, by inference yours are too, given we're saying the same thing.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I think Ljflx was using "you" in the general sense and referring to either Eckhard Cordes, head of Mercedes or Schrempp himself.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Len:

     

    Guess what, the new 5 design is beginning to grow on me. Really. There was this 545i riding my tail in traffic earlier today. I took a long look at it as it whizzed by me. Lovely car. With three other 2004/05 5-series at my work place, I see them everyday and I am starting to like the it. Weird, but true !!

     

    Bangle may not be that bad a designer afterall. Maybe he is ahead of his time, and it is just we paeons that cannot understand such evolutionary designs.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Oh Jeez, what next. Saints preserve us.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    No - The Jets win the super bowl. OAC's from San Diego country so he's not himself today.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    The both of you. Dump the Martinis and go to sleep early tonight.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Funny you should insert the NYJ into this forum. I am still hurting from their undeserved victory this past Saturday against my beloved Chargers. If NY Jets should reach the SuperBowls this year, I'd trade-in my LS and buy a 5-series !!!

     

    Now, knowing that is virtually impossible, I should have no fear.

     

    Oh, it must be the *Tsunami after-effect* rain that has pestered us here for the past week. This has certainly impaired my vision and sensibility for me to start liking the Bangle-ized 5-series ??? Unfortunately, it is actually true. Don't ask me to explain it tho'. I also do like the 300C as well. Go figure ...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    What about Bangle 2.0. You need to catch-up on the martini's.

     

    OAC - forget the 5-series, get the LX470 and go skiing in that 20 feet of snow in the mountains.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    That's Detroit Auto Show PR sizzle... Bangle shooting his mouth off in his best corporate brogue.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    I am a faithful follower of this board because Pablo and others have some thoughtful observations and good insights on where the luxury market will end up. While I agree with Pablo's basic statement that the "car business model has tipped and manufacturers do not build their higher end cars to provide their owners with 10 years of hassle free.....", let me make three points.

     

    1) Not all manufacturers historically were focused on long service life. Certainly, the BMW 7 Series has been plagued with basic engineering problems since day one (plastic thermostat housings, plastic water pump parts, heads that go crack in the night, auto tranny's that were good for 100,000 miles max. with towing verboten, cheap liners or sleeves, etc.) Jaguar similarly never was a 200,000 mile car.

     

    2) While the electronics are very problematic and expensive to fix, the basic power trains seem to be getting better and better. They are even approaching the reliabililty and service life of a small block Chevrolet, a Chrysler 727 or Ford C6 tranny. (The next time you are at an airport, the baggage tugs are all running 727s or Ford C6 trannys often behind Ford 300 engines.)

     

    3) Even if we agree that the the buy'em and hold'em strategy is outdated, this was probably unintentional on the manufacturers' part. In other words, they didn't plan it this way. They couldn't have. Has their statistical analysis gotten so good that they can predict mean time to failure for these components? As a side note, look at the factory to dealer cost of the BMW CPO Program. It is a very hefty $1200 for the certificate alone AFTER all the remedial service work, delayed warranty work, etc. has been done. Because of the justified paronia about owning a BMW out of warranty, the dealer mark up on CPO cars seems to me to be on the order of about $3500 to $4000 above a non CPO car. So, the industry has found a way through their CPO programs to spin around defeat into victory, making chicken sh.. into chicken salad!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    > I think Ljflx was using "you" in the general

    > sense and referring to either Eckhard Cordes,

    > head of Mercedes or Schrempp himself.

     

    He was clearly addressing me telling me I brainwash myself and spout BS, it would seem. Which I find somewhat weird, first because I was agreeing with him, second because it seems out of character...
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Likewise, I follow this board because the discussions are very interesting, and excellent insights are shared.

     

    I find your (3) very worthy of discussion:

     

    > 3) Even if we agree that the the buy'em and

    > hold'em strategy is outdated, this was

    > probably unintentional on the manufacturers'

    > part. In other words, they didn't plan it this

    > way. They couln't have. Has their statistical

    > analysis gotten so good that they can predict

    > mean time to failure for these components?

     

    Needless to say I do not have an answer, but if I would work in product planning for a major car manufacturer, I get the market data telling me that power and gimmickry rank ahead of relaibility with a majority of my target customers (who just intend to drive the car for 3 years), and then some engineer tells me that it increases my COGS by a significant amount of money if a subsystem is designed for 300k miles instead of 100k, and on top of that management makes margins highest priority, then I'd stick with the lower spec. So it could also be that vendors are making design trade-offs simply because they result in higher margins without the majority of the primary target customer group being affected all too negatively. So it *could* be all part of a planning cycle. Or it could be all accidental, which would be a disgrace since companies such as Toyota demonstrate that you can combine leading top reliability scores with industry leading profitability - and perhaps there's even some causality there.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    No, Pablo - maybe i should have been clearer and didn't react further because designman was 100% right. By you - in that post - I meant any person in general can start to believ the "party" line if they say it often enough. In this case the you was intended as Jergen Schremp and the other guy was the newly appointed MB boss. I was attempting to amplify what you were saying in your post and the last thing in the world I had in mind was to post against you personally. I think you're posts are excellent reads and well thought out. Sorry for being ambiguous in that post.
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Sorry guys, but this does not pass the reality test. If reliability no longer mattered to the targeted buyers, then MB would be eating Lexus' lunch, not vice versa. Why were MB sales down and Lexus' were up? Because Lexus is so much better at "power and gimmickry" than MB? I don't think so. I think it goes much more to Len's observations on robotic production effectiveness and efficiency, and the design philosophy of keeping systems separate.

     

    "Buy and hold" is perhaps outdated for MB owners-- and maybe that is why their sales are down; the segment that looks for reliability has moved on to the Japanese manufacturers.

     

    When buy-and-hold truly breaks down is when there is a major change in technology. Perhaps when airbags came in, people who could afford to replace cars when desired rather than needed, had an incentive to buy. I think the next time will be when hybrid engine technology becomes entrenched by offering improved performance as well as efficiency. It would be interesting to see Lexus put a more powerful hybrid 5.0L engine in the LS instead of just the upgrade from 3.3L to 4.0L they are putting in the RX; my guess is it would quickly outsell the current 4.3L.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    I should have known better! Thanks a lot for clarifying. As mentioned, I was confused because I knew it was utterly out of character given the fact you're one of the posters I truly enjoy to read.
  • jvcnjvcn Member Posts: 50
    Remember that even in the extreme case that all new car buyers are indifferent to long term reliability, so long as the used car buying market is willing to pay for reliability there is an incentive for companies to keep providing that quality. Good reliability means higher sales in the second hand market which translates to easier leasing and higher initial demand from the new car buyers. What matters is the relative cost of providing the reliability vs. the net gains in demand for the car -- a point which requires more technical and specific knowledge than we have about each model and which manufacturers won't share even if it's known.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,

      A tongue in cheek remark about the 5 Series.."There is no such thing as an ugly car, you just haven't drunk enough!" The only BMW I find remotely attractive is the 6 Series..Nice lines but it's still weird looking. The 5 Series looks like some Japanese cartoon artist gone mad. (IMHO) I like the dignified stately look of my new LS430. It's not too flashy.

     

    Reliability is still an incredible marketing tool.Remember all those flashy Lexus LS400 ads in 1990? I remember watching the one with the ball bearing test and then the one with the champagne glasses on the hood and thinking "Wow!" Next thing you know I'm trading in my perfectly fine low mileage Park Avenue for one. I'm normally not swayed by these marketing gimmicks, but they got me to buy one.

     

    Even if the ownership is short term those reliability statistics are great for men's bull sessions...We all know buying a car >$35K is hardly a logical decision.(Just ask our wives!)

    If that were the case we'd all drive Camrys. If you're going to spend the sort of money we do, you need something to justify the purchase.."But Honey, it's the most reliable car on the planet.."

    (That doesn't work anymore because I keep trading in LS cars to buy new ones! This time I used the excuse of the Backup camera and SmartKey)

     

    Of course the affect on residuals is another benefit..I think the knock on Jaguar is the public's perception of poor quality..Most wouldn't know that they're one of the highest Euro nameplates now and have one of the best extended warranty programs in the business. Despite being a big fan of Jaguar, I am not willing to write the check to buy one...They'll need to improve their electronics to Lexus standards before I'll consider it. I'd definitely pay for Jaguar styling combined with Lexus quality.

     

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Honest. This comes right from C&D pg. 34. His armored S-class was left unattended for 20 minutes and it was stolen - in broad daylight. Some German paper speculated it was swiped for a buyer in eastern Europe. Efforts to find it via its GPS navigation system failed. Smart thieves or more faulty MB elctronics?? Sounds to me like an inside job from MB's version of th CIA which also goes by the name of the Internal Audit dept. Maybe they're auditing build quality and reliability. Anyway C&D recommends an upgrade to a Maybach for Jurgen.
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Yes, this made a story in Germany's very popular SPIEGEL. A $400k version of an S class, too. The running joke was exactly about that - all the elctronics that are supposed to make the car dead except to the owner with the right crypto keycard, and yet there you go in the top implementation. Embarassing.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    A $400K car stolen in broad daylight like a common $15K Honda Civic ? That is unbelievable !!! For that kind of money, it should have ensured the highest security for the car against car-jackers....even if it was an inside job.

     

    Regardless, it would appear that the vaunted StarMark vehicle locator system designed to locate a stolen MB must have malfunctioned, eh ? Figures.... If the GLOBAL head of MB cannot locate his stolen specially-equipped S, what should the C or E class owners expect when their lesser equipped and cache cars are stolen ?
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I think this would be a great episode for Seinfeld with Kramer playing the lead as detective van Nostrand.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,

     

    I think this goes to show that Professional Car Thieves can steal anything they want..All a security system does is dissuade 16 yr old juvenile deliquents from stealing the car..If a Profession Thief wants your car, whether it be a $400K S-Class or $63K Lexus, they'll steal it.

     

    Although amusing, I think this could have happened to anyone..What I find strange is that they left the car unattended..I bet his driver is in some German interrogation room right now.

     

    SV
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Then Schrempp could get dissed by the Soup [non-permissible content removed].
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "NO CAR FOR YOU"!!
  • pablo_lpablo_l Member Posts: 491
    Unbelievable indeed. Or perhaps just an indication that several of the so-called safety mechanisms we fall for are just for our own psychological benefit... It is not so unbelievable when you think some of the more professional car-jacking outfits drive around with a truck, and merely lift the car up and sell the parts - it's quite profitable for them no matter what the true market value of the car...
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    This was from motor trend a while back. Will have to look and see if it bears resemblance to the ones we were looking at last week.

     

    http://motortrend.com/future/spied/112_0406_sketch/
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    See this link - last paragraph re the 2007 LS hybrid.

     

    http://www.barnstablepatriot.com/doc.php?28,5660,2223028,2223028x- - - p,,,Doc,page.html

     

    If the Camry comes in hybrid form in 2006 (and I've read elsewhere Toyota plans to sell 100K of then in the US) then you'd have to think the ES330 will also have a hybrid option that year.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    What would a buyer in eastern Europe want with a car that announces half a klick away that you are a plum waiting to be picked? What eastern European would want a car that an MIT double ee couldn't keep running? The smart guys who need protection drive up-armored Tahoes and Suburbans. Look at the CNN out takes from Iraq or in any DEA motor pool. Maybe ol' Jurgen should call Bob Lutz and order up a Denali?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    The link I posted a few days ago...an official press release from Lexus...quotes Dennis Clements "I can confirm for you today that GS will be the second vehicle in the Lexus lineup to offer a high, h-performance hybrid gas-electric powertrain. Join us in March at the New York Auto Show - and I'll tell you more about it."...the full release http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_release.html?id- =sp20050109
  • baddmanbaddman Member Posts: 1
    All I see on these boards are discussions about BMW, MB and the LS 430. How come no ones likes the A8. I have been researching all these cars and from what I have read, the Audi is one of the best cars in its class. In a lot of reviews it has been even better than the almost perfect LS 430.

    Do most of you'll not like it just cause its name is not as big as the other three or are there some faults with it that I am not aware off?

     

    The A8 also has the most HP amongst all these cars and a superior interior than the other three IMO.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    I'm sure others will chime in, but you might want to use the "Search This Discussion" feature on the page bar for A8. You'll get links to 200 messages (that's the max the search will return for some reason).
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Baddman,

      It's probably the same reason why you don't hear about the Jaguar XJ too often..Low volume compared to the LS, S, and 7 Series. My purchase of Lexus cars has nothing to do with name..I bought it when it's "name" was non existent back in the early nineties..A few reasons why I personally don't opt for Audi: Resale Value, Electronics quality doesn't match the LS430 (I feel the Japanese have the edge here), and the ride isn't what I'm personally looking for.

     

    I'll admit I'm a huge Jaguar fan, but would never buy one for the reasons I stated for Audi...I simply don't have the time or patience to deal with a car that isn't trouble free..I love to push the example of the '92 LS that I own..0 unexpected hours out of service..The only time I've been without it was for scheduled maintenance. Even then I was given a brand new ES as a loaner.

     

    My LS430 certainly lacks the flair and driving dynamics of an Audi or Jaguar (Well at least the previous XJ) but that is compensated for with the outstanding quality, residual value, electronics, and customer service..I realize buying a high end car is never a fully rational decision, but in my book objectives have to come first..Just my two cents..

     

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I drove the A8 in August and had test drove it earlier. I was disappointed both times. The MMI went dead on me so many times that I lost count of it on a 250 mile trip. It got so bad on I95 that I had to pull over onto the shoulder, not once but 3 different times with cars buzzing by at 75mph. The car has a fairly harsh ride and to me it lacks the beautiful refined rides of the LS430 and the S-class. Styling wise the car is an absolute beauty and to me its only weak point is the rear lights. The handling (which is good, not great) compromises the ride far too much for my tastes of what a luxury car should ride like (I was on the 18" tires and hear the 19" is even more harsh). There has to be a reason why Audi (on average) sells only 2500 of these annually. Sales jumped to 4000 last year but are already retreating back. The car looks great in person, and is great on paper but misses the mark as a luxury car for me and obviously for much of the US given Audi has a 5% marketshare. After the frustrating and distracting experience I had with that MMI I would never consider the car even if it had a ride I loved. Things that were simple to use and that worked perfectly on every car I ever drove suddenly were impossible to control or didn't work at all. The MMI is as dumb and needless as the i-drive.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Forgot to mention that the woman on the navigation system orders you around. "Get to the right, NOW". So if you like to hang too far to the left with a right hand exit approaching and you are using her guidance, get used to that. My marriage with her wouldn't last the life of a lease let alone the period of long-term ownership. The nav does have a nifty sidebar that is right in front of you in the dash when you are using it. But overall I much prefer the Lexus nav dynamics and the pleasant voice that assists you rather than the audi woman that orders you around. The Lexus main nav screen is also far superior imo
  • liferulesliferules Member Posts: 531
    Messing with "Ms. Audi" as I like to call her! I personally like the direct instructions. I don't want touchy feely from a computer, just the facts. I like the specific nature of the nav instructions also, such as "take a left and stay into the left lane entering the highway", etc... IMO the nav system is very user friendly and I even like the way you enter the address (though I've heard that the touch screen of other automakers is very nice as well).
  • wvkivwvkiv Member Posts: 1
    Wow ljflx you really need to do your research and make sure you know your facts before you speak. The A8 sales are not down at all...2004 finished with 5,943 units delivered in the US nearly 3 times as many as the previous A8 did in its best year of 1999. The handling of the car is absolutely amazing for a vehicle of its size. No nav system orders a person around and stating that if you hang out left approaching a right exit is obsured. Navigation satellites are not allowed to have greater than 250ft accuracy as mandated my the US Government. Want to complain a bout a bad navigation system, drive a MB with DVD nav on I-95 in south Florida while its repeating make a left turn for a right hand exit. Enjoy your Lexus as it obviously meet your needs, driving and electronic capabilities.
  • kyfdxkyfdx Moderator Posts: 235,188
    Fraulein Audi sounds like my kind of woman!!

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  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    I had read that the sales were 4,000 or so but if they are 6,000 than I stand corrected. It's still a tiny fraction of the pie and my point is that the lux crowd is not intrigued by this car and historically the car has a hard time selling more than 200 units a month. I found the handling to be good but not great. Maybe after reading so much about it I expected more than it delivered. As for staying left and exiting right - well - haven't you ever passed a slow moving vehicle in the right lane because you have enough clearance (and torque) to do so and still exit a highway. I never said the nav was bad just said I prefer the operating dynamics of how Lexus does it. As for that woman - sorry - she's got to go, along with the MMI.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    And here is the link to US car sales FY2003 vs FY2004

     

    http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

     

    Audi sales are indeed 5,942 in FY2004, however, they represent ~50% growth YoY (vs FY2003). In contrast, and more towards Ljflx's point below, the LS sales were 32,272, representing a 5-fold margin of sales vs the A8. See, statistics don't lie, do they ?
  • flyfisher1flyfisher1 Member Posts: 38
    Boy, you sure have an issue with the A8 don't you. The problem with the LS is that it is an old man's car in looks and in performance. If you choose to drive a car that puts you in total isolation from the road, that's your choice. Further, most enthusiasts do not even put the lexus ls in the same category as the A8, 7 series or S class.

    I personally do not care if the LS outsells all three of the above brands combined as it is not in the same league.
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Flyfisher,

      Define Enthusiast first..Car and Driver and the rest of the autorag consider the LS in the same league. If you're going to put down the LS point to some objective measure..In the last comparo I read, the LS was second to the A8 only b/c of their preference for "Soul." Any attempt to putdown the obvious success of the LS is arrogance.

     

    Performance? The notion that the LS is slow is a myth..I've driven all of these cars and the only notable difference in handling was noted in the BMW. Straight line acceleration is comparable to all. Handling isn't 747 like as some here would believe..Have you even driven a LS430 with the Euro Suspension? Even the Auto rags agree it's competent but doesn't have the feel of the BMW.

     

    Looks? The 7 Series is certainly nothing to look at..I'm sure you're aware of how universally the 7 has been lambasted for its current design and iDrive..The S-Class tail looks more like a Korean car than a 85K sedan. The spyshots I've seen of the new one are even worse.. If you want to talk looks, let's talk about Jaguar. They continue to produce the most eye catching designs out there. Have you had a look at their successor to the XK?..Breathtaking..

     

    SV
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    "most enthusiasts do not even put the lexus ls in the same category as the A8, 7 series or S class"

     

    While there is a handling difference between the LS and the 7, for you to say that performance-wise the LS "isn't in the same league" as the S is a bit of a strech:

     

    2005 LS430: 0-60 5.9 sec, 290 hp, 320 lb-ft

     

    2005 S430: 0-60 6.9 sec, 275 hp, 295 lb-ft

     

    Who isn't in the same league?
  • flyfisher1flyfisher1 Member Posts: 38
    It would seem as if I have struck a soft spot with you. I have indeed driven them all (S Class, 7 Series, LS, Audi). There is no comparison. The LS does not belong in that class. As per straight line performance - that is only one measure. I don't know about you, but I do not sit at stoplights anymore and look to race the car next to me to the next stoplight. What I prefer is a car that has more of a "driver's" perspective as regards performance (ride, acceleration, handling). And - a car that is all wheel drive in addition. I have never - ever - heard the ls described as a driver's car. It's referred to as quiet, smooth and isolated from the road. I spent a week in one. It was totally uninvolving as a car. In addition, I found it's interior very plain and uninspiring. Also, it is a "knock-off" to MB S as regards styling.
  • flyfisher1flyfisher1 Member Posts: 38
    Read which car Edmunds places at the top. Read which car Automobile places at the top. Read the recent comments in Autoweek of their long tern car. As for looks. The A8 is universally commented upon favorably. I couldn't agree with you more as regards the 7 series (they have lost their way and are having significant problems with their computer systems in the 5 and 7's). As regards Jaguar - the XKE is their iconic car. They need to get a new original thought as to car design. The new XJ is attractive. However, no one can tell the new model from the old. That equals few new car sales.
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