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Comments
This is laughable. Engineering means putting things together, making sure they work together, and stay that way in the expected service lifespan. Engineering is not just drawing up designs and schematics, but actually making things that work! I need a working car to go to work; I can't go to work riding on a fancy blueprint. The German cars are simply over-designed and under-engineered. The $300-400 million that they spend on designing and engineering those models are a tiny fraction of what goes into Civic redesign/engineering. The results are plainly visible: the bugs were never worked out. Having to spread the meager resources over numerous variants only exacerbate the problem.
And this mean what exactly? You stated that the A8 was less "safe" than the LS430, of which I see no proof. Sheetmetal has little to do with safety of a vehicle. It is the engineering behind the sheetmetal and the Germans were about safety long before the Japanese or Americans, only the Swedish understood the concept.
M
Hey, you brought up those fabulously rich UAEer's. hmm, reality sucks, eh? They are not so fabulous after all. Just like the average MB and Audi are no luxury after all despite what people anecdotally think.
Where did I say that? I implied that using aluminum only served to make the vehicle less safe than it otherwise would have been (ie. using steel in the same place as aluminum). Aluminum being a much more brittle metal with much lower melting and flaming temperature, is certainly less safe than steel sheet metal. The bending of sheet metal is a large part of the crumple zone's safety feature.
the Germans were about safety long before the Japanese or Americans, only the Swedish understood the concept.
(1) Even if your statement were true, then it's truely sad Germans no longer seems to hold that advantage; well, perhaps not.
(2) In reality, MB and BMW historically had crash results, whereas Audis were historically poor. Look at the A6 on IIHS for yourself.
Numbers please not guesses. The A-Class in particular is no where near that popular in Europe to be half all Mercedes sales. I'd like to see the actual numbers on both the A-Class and A3 since you say they are so popular. What you're not realizing is that in Europe Audi enjoys almost the same high reputation as Mercedes does, despite them selling cheaper cars. Why? Because unlike Acura they have some turly luxurious high-end models that also sell well in Europe too. The S-Class is the leader in its segment and always has been.
M
Prove it then, where are the crash stats. The sheetmetal is made to bend so you're way off their doesn't matter how well it bends or not, it is supposed to do just that in order to absorb the energy from the crash. Again, the crash test scores/stats please, otherwise you're wasting time with this theory.
M
In the Civilian world. Expensive SUVs like the Range Rover and Land Cruiser traced their origins to at least he 1970's. Yes, despite being a Toyota, Land Cruiser is more expensive than ML, and much more luxurious.
M
I'd say money. Mercedes is no longer in a position to take on Ferrari and Lamborghini in such a tight market. They would have been spending money that they don't have to build 3 more sports cars after the SLR. Interestingly enough though there is an interview with the head of Mclaren in the March issue of CAR magazine in which he says the relationship is just on hold, in other words when things get better they'll review it again. Its basically the same thing with Smart. This new guy, Cordes is looking it right the core business (Mercedes-Benz) before doing anything else and I agree totally. Chasing Ferrari is grand idea, but not right now.
I'm done with the leasing talk my friend because none of what you said has anything to do with folk who aren't leasing.
M
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7145-1-432134-1-0-0-0- -0-0-9-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0,00.html
Section 3 under the title "Mercedes-Benz sales in Germany up 22 percent in November" reads:
As was the case in October, Mercedes-Benz’ biggest sales increase in November was recorded in its primary sales market Germany: A total of 32,200 Mercedes-Benz passenger cars were delivered to customers in Germany, . . . In November alone, sales of the compact model series rose by 62 percent, setting a new record of 16,600 units.
16,600 units out of 32,200 is just over 50%!
I can too. Mercedes, BMW and Audi would be crazy to not offer the A, B-Classes, 1-Series and A3 in their home markets. Doesn't detract away from their upper end cars one bit to me.
M
So what? Brand new model sets a sales record for one month in one country and all of sudden Mercedes isn't a luxury brand anymore. Right. That is totally ridiculous. Plus you stated in Europe, you know like the whole continent, not just Germany. Wrong. What do you expect Germans to buy other than German cars?
I also have to ask if you've read anything about the new A-Class other than a sales report? The car is much better and more in line with more expensive MBs than the first A-Class ever was.
The Audi A3 you're knocking has the typical Audi interior, which more often than not is considered the standard of the industry, so to say that the A3 is less luxurious than a Honda or Toyota is totally baseless and absurd.
M
Since you did not dispute the lower melting point and flaming point of aluminum vis steel, we can safely assume that we have that aspect settled.
Now onto tensile strength:
http://ussautomotive.com/auto/steelvsal/mechproperties.htm
As you can see, most grades of industrial steel has tensile strength in the 300-600 MPa range, whereas most Aluminum grades are between 200-300.
You know, I am starting to question my own sanity re the Bangled 5. One day I like it, another day I wonder, what the heck ?? So today, I am in the "what the heck" feeling. I thought it would grow on me, but then I see the rear and poof goes my positive thoughts of it....
But that M6 ??? It takes the crown for the ugliest butt of all ! What were they thinking ???
Again, what does any of this have do with the A8 itself. You stated that it was less safe, either post a link with crash test scores or leave it alone. The Lexus crowd is pretty good at producing stats for this or that, but here it seems you can't find any to back up the claim that the A8 is "less safe". Sheetmetal is made to bend in a crash, its the structure of the car that does the protecting.
M
M
100 hand-made super cars are less than a drop in a bucket. A few 550hp GT have not made Ford a marquee for super race cars; nor have a few 500hp V10 Vipers made Dodge into a ultra performance brand. Not even the thousands of Corvettes sold every year made Chevy a performance brand. That's where MB and Audi are headed, the company of Ford, Dodge and Chevy, because they can not even keep up with Toyota and Honda for quality.
True "high-end" is Maybach, Bentley, Rolls-Royce etc. Mercedes certainly competes on a much larger scale than Lexus does, unless you want to count all those Toyotas too. From 90hp to 617hp from 22K to 450K Lexus doesn't even come close and if they they're going to take Europe with broadening their product range they are mistaken. Europe is about diesels and hatches for everyone that competes there and MB, BMW, and Audi are only giving what the market requires in the same manner in which Lexus has become the SUV king here with dud cars like the GS and IS.
That said Mercedes is higher end than Lexus which doesn't even compete in all the markets Mercedes does, nor do they have the product range or variety. Lexus was thought up in a Toyota board meeting in 1987 and thus is a synthetic brand to people who care about such things. If you don't (obviously) fine but if you're going to measure brands by things like sales, prestige and what not Lexus isn't even close to Mercedes-Benz, especially on a worldwide scale. You keep pointing out the Mercedes is selling most A-Classes in Europe, then the link you gave said Germany only. Then you say that Lexus sold 20K cars in all of Europe, yet they're supposed to be of higher stature because all those 20K units were luxury cars when Mercedes sold 90K S-Classes worldwide last year and lord knows how many E-Classes, and you know full well that even if you took away the taxi versions you'd get more than 20K units which is what the entire Lexus brand sold in Europe. Lexus is a baby in Europe next to MB, BMW and even Audi which sold more A6s than Lexus did their whole line.
M
M
Lexus doesn't care to compete at 90hp or 22k. It's mission is to be a true high-end luxury brand, one solid step at a time, from 250hp at $35k onward. That's why MB, BMW and Audi will be left for Toyota brand to clean up after Lexus brand passes through on its way to compete with RR and company. SUV's little more than large hatchbacks. When Lexus figures out how to make big hatches consume gas like little hatches (time is nigh with hybrid technology) and decides to expand sales by conquering Europe, there will be little to stop it. SUVs are already gaining popularity in Europe, especially the RX from Lexus and Rav4 from Toyota, with CRV from Honda and light MPV from Mazda also gaining fast.
Let's go back to our basic definition of what a luxury car is ? What price-point is a high-end lux car ? Who sells the *most* lux cars ? And who then should be crowned the undisputed lux car brand ?
Let me start.
I believe a *high-end lux* car/truck is one with features and contents not found in pedestrian/mass-produced cars/trucks. Features like high-end audio (ML, Bose, etc), voice-activated Nav, radar/laser-CC, drive-by-wire, brake-by-wire, bluetooth, parking-assist, rear-camera, 5-/6-/7-speed tranny, cooled/heated seats, V8-powered or higher (no wimpy v6s, pls), state-of-the-art in safety gadgets, unparalleled quality and refinement, low NVH, good handling and performance, highly reliable, and best-in-class customer service.
To have all of these, the car/truck needs to sticker north of $50K.
Which company sells the most cars/trucks north of $50K here in the US ?
Ahhhh.......
No kidding. Lexus is only beginning to set up its dealership network in much of Europe. Not a single high volume Lexus on the market was engineered for the European market, yet. Look to North America, and see for yourself what happens to the old guards when this baby grows up.
Need performance ? Buy a 7-series
Need handling ? Buy a 7-series
Need luxury amenities ? Buy an LS or an S
Need quiet ride ? Buy an LS or an S
Need most reliable ? Buy an LS
Need ego-massage ? Buy an S-class
Need to show-off ? Buy a 7-series or S-class
Need to prove a point ? Buy an S-class
Need best customer service ? Buy an LS
Need a drag racer ? Buy none of these cars
By my unscientific survey here, the 7-series garners 3 points, S-class has 4 points, and the LS has 4-points. Maybe a honorary mention for the A8 ! See, even this unscientific survey correlates (somewhat) with the sales volume in the US (LS > S > 7 > A8)
Need a high-end luxury car ? Buy a Bentley, or a RR. Nothing else beats these two for sheer high-end luxury....
So why debate these lower-lux class cars ? Especially seeing that they do not provide all things to all buyers....
On paper, the GS430 certainly seems to deliver. Thump the throttle, and you watch the speedo needle sweep past 60 in an impressive 5.7 seconds. Top speed is a solid 149 mph.
Specs can be misleading, of course, but not in this case, as we pleasantly discovered during a day's driving up and into the San Gabriel Mountains. The new GS is not only fast, but uncannily responsive. Steering is precise and quick, a subtle yet effective speed-sensitive system constantly adjusting the steering ratio.
The narrow and windy mountain passes constantly toss new challenges at you, and its easy to get in over your head. Yet the GS seemed to almost anticipate the road's contour, correcting driver errors so quickly as to be almost imperceptible. It's the sort of a car that can make even an average driver feel ready for track time...
....contd...
That said, the biggest challenge with the new GS430 is simply finding something to criticize. The 300-horsepower, 4.3-liter V-8 is everything you expect, and the new 6-speed automatic is responsive enough to mute our request for a Lexus stick shift.
For those who don't need quite that much power, there's also an all-new, 245-hp, 3.0-liter V-6 in the GS300. It's still quick, turning 0-60 times of 6.8 seconds. Better yet, the six can be paired with an optional all-wheel-drive package, priced at a reasonable $1950, a figure that includes standard Run-Flat tires.
The GS430 sedan is fast, fun and as lavish as anything we would have hoped for. There are plenty of advanced electronic systems onboard, but unlike so many Japanese high-tech cars of the past, the technology remains largely out of sight until it's needed, and then comes into play quite unobtrusively...
Wanna read more ? Here is the link:
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=8081&sid=183&n=- --157
Think they are snorting something ???
And this: "I said A8 using aluminum only served to make the vehicle itself less safe than it could have been with steel."
I'm still waiting to see some proof, you know like crash test scores, not theories about aluminum cans. I don't see what is so hard to understand about this, proof of the A8 being less safe than the LS430 is what is needed here, otherwise........
M
In any event, I have a '98 E320 and recently purchased a '05 LS430. I also had a '01 ML320 and traded-in for a new '03 Sequoia. In my opinion, MB and Lexus are both very fine cars; one brand is not absolutely better than the other. I love my E. It is beautiful to look at, solid and realitively reliable throughout the years. Unfortunately, the new E are simply too small for me to consider. The ML was a fine truck (with very poor ride though), but again, it was too small for my needs and I had to trade up.
Based on my "limited" MB experience, both my E and ML were pretty reliable without any major issues. With respect to the LS430, it simply rides a dream. It feels solid and yet has the soft Japanese touch and luxury. It definitely feels different than MB, but I don't believe it is inferior in any way.
The other models S, 7 and A8 are all fine automobiles in their own right. However, the bottom line for me is that for $60Kish, LS430 is a bargain and made most sense - price, size, quality, luxury & reliability. If new E were about the same size, I would have bought the E. If the S were little cheaper and more reliable, I would have bought the S. For the same money, I would take the S over A8L any day (personally, I don't consider Audi and MB to be in the same class). The 7 is simply too ugly for me to even consider.
By the way, the recent Luxury SUV movement was likely started by Lincoln Navigator back in the mid 90's.
These are my 2 cents. Love what you drive and why care about what others think?
"I believe a *high-end lux* car/truck is one with features and contents not found in pedestrian/mass-produced cars/trucks. Features like high-end audio (ML, Bose, etc), voice-activated Nav, radar/laser-CC, drive-by-wire, brake-by-wire, bluetooth, parking-assist, rear-camera, 5-/6-/7-speed tranny, cooled/heated seats, V8-powered or higher (no wimpy v6s, pls), state-of-the-art in safety gadgets, unparalleled quality and refinement, low NVH, good handling and performance, highly reliable, and best-in-class customer service."
I agree with this for the most part, but you can put these features on any car and it still doesn't always mean its a luxury car, imo. To me a luxury car is, yes a car that has features that regular cars don't have, but its the way all of this is intergrated that makes a luxury car. Also the quality of build, performance, styling and heritage make up the luxury car experience or defines what a luxury car is, again imo. So we're not that far apart here. To me (not anyone else here) I like the fact that Mercedes can make a taxi cab E240 and a E55 AMG out of the same basic car. I like the fact they can make an A-Class to compete with everyone else while a SL65 AMG mixes it up with Ferraris, Bentleys and Aston-Martins (see the March issue of CAR magazine). To me that is part of lure of Mercedes-Benz, to me. That an the fact that they aren't scared to introduce new technology. Now that brake by wire is present in the E-Class, Lexus has just done it for the GS. That says volumes to me, again it doesn't have to anyone else, I'm saying just to me. Mercedes' biggest problem is reliability and that has been said many times and many ways.
Another thing while I'm crazy about Mercedes' cars they aren't my favorite in every segment either nor have I ever said they're the best in every segment, which is why I'm not exactly on the same page on every issue with the other German car defenders here. I give credit where it is due and I'm crazy about certain cars from everywhere, not just Germany.
"Which company sells the most cars/trucks north of $50K here in the US ?"
Ahh...it certainly isn't Lexus. Between the cars that Lexus sells that are over 50K: LS430, LX470, GS430 and SC430 Lexus doesn't sell as many S-Class, CL, SL, G, E500s, E55s, CLK500s, CLK55s and now CLS-Class cars (all of these being over 50K) that Mercedes does. If you're going to set the bar at 50k then its Mercedes, or at 60K, 70K, 80K. I think you'd have to go past 100K to find volume sales in another brand like Bentley maybe. Between 50K to 100K Mercedes sells more than anyone else. This is kinda my point when I see the sales ranting here, because Mercedes isn't priced like Lexus and yet they're expected to win a sales race. The have far more models over 50K than they do under 50K.
M
Why was I not made of stone like thee?
Merc, how can you like the 300C and not the GS? Among other things, the mug on the 300C looks like a badly carved Halloween pumpkin. And the baggy, puffy headlamps look like they have conjunctivitis.
So Rolls-Royce is not a true luxury brand?
like I've said time and time again....3 specific cars SC,LS, and GS don't make a luxury brand....more of like an upscale Scion.
Whatever, all three of them are far more luxurious and at far higher price points than the majority of MB's sold (A and C). SC and LS are in fact higher than E class. So you think S class and Maybach are upscale Smarts?
Wow, the posts keep piling on in here..
"now if Lexus was a true luxury brand they would have an AWD luxury sedan."
Wait a second...Neither the XJ or BMW 7 has a AWD car..Does that mean it's not a true Luxury car? Since when does AWD classify anything as a Luxury car? Does that make Subaru one too? I personally would not want one. I live in Boston where winters are rough, but get by fine on 4 snow tires..That's not to say AWD isn't useful, but the marketing hype would have us believe we're going to get stranded if we don't buy one!
"....3 specific cars SC,LS, and GS don't make a luxury brand....more of like an upscale Scion. "
Oh boy..The Scion has been around for what, a year? Are you just trying to bait us? Jaguar only has three Luxury cars as well, XJ, XK, and S Type...Models like the rebadged Ford Mondeo wannabe X-Type aren't helping..The sad thing is that they're even using Ford derivative V6's in their XJ6..Sad..
Merc, I've seen the A-Class in person here in London..It just looks like a tin can to me..What are they accomplishing by going so down market? Isn't this what they bought Chrysler for? From a business perspective it would make more sense to concentrate on the Neon to penetrate this segment rather than dilute the MB brand name. Mercedes should concentrate on their E and above models and delegate the rest to Chrysler..I just think Chrysler has more experience building the cheaper cars, while MB has the decided advantage in the upmarket products.
You mentioned that they would bring the S320 CDI to the US in a s400 form..Is that because of the Horsepower wars? I asked someone with a S320 and he commented it was fast enough on the Motorways here..I know they wouldn't do it, but I wouldn't mind a car without all this electronic nonsense!
Sv
if the post earlier is correct that Lexus has 250 dealers in the US....they're in more trouble in Europe marketing their brand than anybody is admitting.
when it comes to barking about MB and the other German brands having smaller cars in Europe...i find it ridiculous. they still make the only true luxury flagships that right now Lexus or any other Janpanese brand can only go visit in a MB showroom . that must just suck! no AWD versions, no high performance versions, no extended wheelbases.
i am amazed at how the Lexus fans would like to ignore how Lexus has been succesful in only one market. does this make it as a luxury brand?
....i can hear it already...jdpowers..jdpowers..jdpowers!!!!!
The same can be said of Chevy, Ford and Dodge, with their Corvette, 550hp GT and Viper.
Which company sells the most cars/trucks north of $50K here in the US ?"
Ahh...it certainly isn't Lexus. Between the cars that Lexus sells that are over 50K: LS430, LX470, GS430 and SC430 Lexus doesn't sell as many S-Class, CL, SL, G, E500s, E55s, CLK500s, CLK55s and now CLS-Class cars (all of these being over 50K) that Mercedes does
Your assessment is probably incorrect. Lexus sells around 3300 LS430 and LX470 alone each month; add almost all of the 2800 or so GX470 which are usually priced over $50k when popular options are added; the a small per centage of fully loaded RX330's, which has a huge base number to work with, like 9-10k units, even if only 10% of them are fully loaded, that's another 1k units. Add another 700-1k units for SC430. We have what, 7-8k Lexus units sold in the US being over $50k, estimated very conservatively, before even counting any GS model at all. MB only sells 12-13k cars in the US a month. There is simply no way more than half of them are over $50k. MB has a lot of models, but precious little unit sales among its high end models. That also explains why MB quality has gone down the toilet: what little engineering budget there is has to be spread thin.
It's the fact that Lexus has been so successful in the biggest market of them all: the USA...It's like saying the best team in the NFL couldn't do battle in the Canadian Football league. Without a doubt you're correct in saying they'll have to modify the design and feel of their cars.
What luxury true flagships are you talking about? Most cars I see in London are S320's,Jag Xj6's and 735i's..I haven't seen a Single Audi A8 yet, but have been quite a few LS430's. You can't disqualify Lexus on the basis of Wheelbase!!! As earlier posts point out, neither is AWD a criteria for judging a marque..It seems your judgements about Europe aren't true..I'm here right now and have yet to confirm anything you've said...Prestige doesn't come with marketing a S600 or 750 that hardly anyone buys!!!
If that were the case Jaguar never would have retired the XJ12. Even their Supercharged Vanden Plas XJ doesn't sell that well,in fact their best seller is the XJ6!!..Prestige in my book is selling eye catching, high performance, superior quality cars. I don't know what you're harping on about, but nothing the Germans offer is especially breath taking in design..They've managed to even screw up Rolls Royce..The new one is hardly as stately as the old one..My British colleagues feel the same way about the Jaguar XJ as well.
If I wanted a breath taking car I'd buy an older XJ8. Nothing the Germans make can match the inviting Gentleman's Club interior that the Vanden Plas has. Sure they offer more electronics, but Jaguar has them beat in styling and even quality to boot! (look at the last JDP survey) What do you think of that!
As I mentioned a few posts before I was looking to justify a purchase of a XJ without having my wife steal it or kick me out..Well I found the perfect excuse! My son will be returning home from college here in London and will be in the market for a car..Unfortunately, I've taught him too well and he wants to lease himself an ES330...In an attempt to bribe him I've offered to subsidize a purchase of a '03 XJ8..This way I get to have my cake and eat it too!!
SV
if the post earlier is correct that Lexus has 250 dealers in the US....they're in more trouble in Europe marketing their brand than anybody is admitting.
How long has Lexus been in Europe? 1yr, 2yr? How many models has Lexus developed with Europen market in mind? Zero?
when it comes to barking about MB and the other German brands having smaller cars in Europe...i find it ridiculous.
What's so ridiculous about it? The best selling MB model in most European countries is A-class, an econobox priced around $20k, followed by C-class, a decontented compact priced at or below $30k. How does that jive with "High End Luxury Marquee"? Lexus' lowest vehicle sells at about $35k, with the most popular model typically sold at over $40k. A maker of cheap cars that also sells a few halo cars is not a luxury marquee; Chevy, Ford and Dodge are not luxury or sports marquees despite their Corvette, 550hp GT and Viper.
It is pretty impressive:
E320... 0-60 7.1, 19/27 mpg
E320 CDI... 6.6, 27/37
and the MSRP is only $1850 higher.
Of course hybrid technology is getting 99% of the press attention, so I imagine that the RX hybrid will easily outsell the E320 CDI.
Does anyone know what will happen when air quality standards are tightened, I think in 2006, before low-sulphur diesel makes it to market?
Of course it does. Cadillac is a luxury brand, and so is Toyota Crown (a line of cars).
Comes to think of it, Maybach and the new Rolls have been successful in no market at all. Yet they are still bona fide high end luxury marquees.
Luxury marquees get damaged when they stoop down to make cheap cars like Cadillac did back in the 70's and 80's, which gave rise to MB and BMW in the US to begin with.
Now Europe is a very nationalistic society. They want their goods built there. They don't care if the company is not European but they want the goods built in Europe. Importing is a last alternative to that society. But if the EU doesn't open it up for Lexus wait to you see how quickly Japan shuts it down for the Europeans. This part isn't about car tastes, it's about regulations that can be changed by municipalities.
As I said, I'd look at the fact that Lexus sold 20K cars with virtually no effort and the fact that they are quickly penetrating England with a lot of fear if I were a German lux make. What happened in the US is inevitable in Europe. Selling nearly 300K cars in the US thru 240 dealershios is a real scary efficiency that I'd worry about too. A great product at a lower price point that equals or surpasses the home grown product cannot be denied. That is business 101.
BTW, MB plans to bring out a hybrid too...with a Diesel engine.
I do understand that the technology is clean enough. In the U.S. we need cleaner, lower-sulphur diesel fuel to go with the engines. Not clear to me if the fuel price goes up when the sulphur content gets reduced.
To the point and lays it out right on the money..At least in my Opinion.
Your comment about Aluminum and what Brightness said is totally unfair and incorrect....He has pointed that out to you, yet you continue to come back to the same OLD LINE over and over again..Not Nice, Not accurate and Not very Honest on your part.
TO BE CLEAR...He said Aluminum is less save then Steel...not that the A8 is less safe then an LS or any other specific car...Reason being Aluminum is more brittle and because of that doesn't Crumple as well as Steel...it also has a lower burn point then steel.
(This is from memory and if brightness thinks I have misquoted him I hope he will correct me.)
I personally know nothing about the Properities of Aluminum but it seems Brightness does...and You have not posted anything to factually refute what he has said.
Just because steel in its raw form is heavier than aluminum, doesn't mean that anything brightness04 said about it is correct..
Why refute a point that hasn't been made?.. I've seen nothing that implies any special knowledge or experience about aluminum.. other than maybe his soft drink comes in an aluminum can..
And, unless it implies something about the relative safety of the Audi A8, itself, then what possible relevance could it have?
Just a way to snipe at the Audi, if you ask me..
regards,
kyfdx
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My comment was made because you seemed to be fixated on Horse Power...and Speed...LEXUS LS is faster then the Audi A8...
It does say something about the relative safety of the A8...It says that car would be Safer and less costly to repair if it were made of Steel.
Brightness said Aluminum is more Brittle then steel...do you have any knowledge that it is not?
Brightness said that Aluminum Burns at a lower tempture then Steel...Do you have any knowledge that it does not?
Birghtness said that Aluminum is more expensive to repair then steel...Do you have any knowledge that it is not?
I noticed YOU did not give anything to refute the comments by Brightness...If you disagree show us something.