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Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra
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Well Korea or rather S.Korea makes a lot of progress but they also got hit hard by the Economic crisis. Most of the conglomerate in S.Korea is facing financial krisis either to poor management (overagressive management, debt accumulation,etc) or simply loss of sale.market position.
And last time I check, Hyundai are the only remaining auto-maker that still owned mostly by Korean company. Daewoo is going to get bought by Either GM or Ford, Samsung Motor got bought by Renault ? (if i remember it correctly).
If you talked about resources, there are countries in this world that still work in a 6 days workweek as well, mostly are asian or latin nation (dunno bout African countries). And isnt that bad for the workers ? The company is squeezing everything they can from them.
Regarding human resources, I doubt korean workers are any different. They goes on strikes many times too, especially now since the economy there going south, and most of the company is being bought by foreign entity. If they are really good-hard-working ppl, it should not matter to whom the company is being sold as long as its gonna help them to become a better company. (then again, I just hate ppl that goes on strike, if they afraid to loose their job, they should try harder to keep the job! there are many other ppl that will love to get their job!). I do have the feeling that Koreans simply doesnt want any foreign company to buy any korean company.
Also, Japan rise from the same ashes that Koreas where in, and they become a major player much sooner than Korea, so does that mean Japanese ppl are much better worker than Korean ppl? I dont think so....
Regarding N.Korea.....well...they still lived in their own world, lets leave it as it is. It sure troubles me regarding the reports of thousands of North Koreans died because of lack food, last winter...
IsellHonda:
I dont doubt that Honda's engine are one heck of a nice engine. Even Toyota's has sludge issue in it, while I never heard bout anything major regarding Honda's engine. Transmission on the other hand....hehe
Still, dont you think Civic are especially overpriced?? You can get a midsize car (626,Altima,Galant,Sonata) for the price of a Civic EX, with similar features!
Regarding value vs price, i think vince8 spew this long time back, what good is a high resale value, if you loose the same amount of money upfront when you buy the car? Very valid point imho.
Reliability wise, I still think Honda is definitely got the number of Hyundai or other Korean Cars. We'll see a few years from now if thats gonna change.
p.s: Any insight on the new Civic?
And also, and just because a car has a distributor in it, doesn't meanthey're behind the times. At least they have the electric/gas hybrid. hell, let's know the diesel engines for a higher pollution rate too.
But c'mon..the best thing the Hyundai has going for it is its price. i wonder where the rating of the car would be if it was in line pricewise with the Civic. that's the main thing the Hyundai has going for it..the price. i bet, providing the reliability holds up, that car will edge closer and closer to the Civic.
And, the issue of Accord transmission problems is the most distorted, overblown bunch of rubbish I have ever heard of! Talk about pouncing on a minor issue that was quickly corrected!
Yeah, and the high revs must really hurt Honda engines...that must be why I soo so many with 250,000 and more miles running just fine...
Once I went by the MSN Carpoint's Reliability Ratings site, and was amazed by what I saw. If you haven't seen it yet, better check it out:
http://carpoint.msn.com//reliability_ratings.asp
Check out their ratings on Elantra, Civic and Corolla, you'll be surprised.
My question is, what do you believe now, the stats or still what you HEARD of?
Also, what made it so different? Any psychological analysis?
Heh, breath in, breath out....breath in, breath out..
Now you have to admit that the Accord transmission problem DO exist, albeit affecting only limited # of V6. Honda even issue a technical bulletin or whatever on the issue. And yes, they're doing their best to fix it which what you would expect from Honda.
Now you going to answer my civic question? regarding them being overpriced beyond their class?
jxcar:
Even the so-called fact itself is subjective, just the same with people opinion.
Carpoint is just one of the sites that gives you idea on reliability. And from what I can gather, they based their information from the number of calls AIS got. This itself is questionable, because they assumed infrequent calls meaning good, while the stats point out that the number of Civic and Corolla sold greatly eclipse the number of Elantra sold during the same period of time. So of course Elantra won't get many service call, there are not many of them out there to begin with.
The reliability rating also is subjective. For one, I really think a problem with the timing belt is more serious than problem with the distributor (we talking about engine damage here!), yet Carpoint rate it as a mere medium, while the distributor is severe. (btw, wtheck is MAP sensor anyway?)
Personally, I listen to the "tales" of family,friends and acquaintances as well as from informative site like carpoint,edmund,consumer report, etc. From there and from experience, oneself should be able to draw the conclusion.
Altimas are being sold at distressed prices now that Nissan is struggling. Too bad, I think, Datsun/Nissan had the market by the tail and let it go! Used Altimas bring quite a bit less than book at auctions. I do think they can be a good buy,more so when a year or two old.
Same thing with Mazda, although they seem to have slipped since Ford got involved, a 626 is not a bad car.
For years, Civics have enjoyed bulletproof reliability and great resale. That's not being overpriced at least in my book.
First, I don't think they just add up the numbers of service calls for each model of cars and compare them as "rating". I don't think anyone would do something that ridiculous. Though it's not clearly stated (they do say "frequency"), I suppose that they use #problems/total#of cars as the ratings for each model. Doubt about it? Go check their ratings on Porsche 911 and Ford Escort, for example, and look at the category for transmission. You really believe that they got more service calls on Porsches than on Escorts?
For your second question, you can find the answer in the FAQ there. Well, I'll just copy it here:
"A Green Indicator—means the system has had a low frequency of reported problems, and that the cost to repair those problems is also low.
A Yellow Indicator—means either that the system has had a low frequency of reported problems but that the cost to repair those problems is high OR that the system has had a moderate frequency of reported problems and that the cost to repair the problems is low.
A Red Indicator—means either that the system has had a high frequency of reported problems regardless of repair costs OR that the system has had a moderate frequency of reported problems and that the cost to repair the problems is high. "
I think most people would agree that's a reasonable indication. So even though a problem with timing belt is far more serious then a problem with distributor, if it occurs once in a million cars, it's not going to rated as "significant".
And that is the difference between "stats" and "reputation", you have a much larger database with "stats", and it's not biased because they don't own any car and are not trying to sell any car. Reputation and stats would match each other in most cases, but not all the cases.
If it was a number of calls per XXX number of cars sold, then yeah. that's better than just the total number of calls.
A 120 hp engine ( or whatever) , a little more torque from X-Y? I guess when your Civic is at 80,000 with $0.00 warranty claims and $0.00 unexpected maint. you will know what is truth and what is bs. Your Hyundai is fine but it's not a Civic. Get over it.
the germans who has the luxury segment to themselves up to that time were put under pressure...
bmw had to come out with their first v8 in 43 years...
ditto for the british... jaguar had to recently come up with their first v8 in history...
the british had always been copying the germans in design and engineering... look at the jags of 50 tears ago and the jags of today and you will find the definite resemblance of the jags to the german mb and bmw...
in todays( well yesterday's now) june.15, 2000 issue section A23, the wsj talks about how the japan lost the no. 1 spot in shipbuilding last year to korea...
and korea is likely to hold on to the no. 1 spot in the foreseeable future...
new shipbuilding orders for japanese shipbuilders last year totaled 9.7 million gross tons, down 9.2 % from a year earlier,
while those by korean shipbuilders hit 12.7 million tons, up 27%...
"it is widely known here that it has become difficult for some japanese shipbuilders to compete effectively because the japanese companies' cost structures are higher and scale of output lower."
the cost structure!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
it is also widely known that japan's layer after layer of distribution channnels contribute to the high cost of doing business in japan...
i mean why does a cup of coffee have to cost over $10 in japan??????????????????????????????????
could it be because of the extremely high rent???
could it be because of the layer after layer of inefficient distribution channels that contineues to keep japan's econoy in a stagnant state and even depression???
or could it be that the japanese coffee is more reliable??? and has an added secret ingredient???
why should a cup o' good old cofee have to cost $10???
the reality is, that what many japanese consumers have to face everyday...
a 1300 sq. ft condo in tokyo cost $$$2.5 million in japan...
the cost structure is just to high for some japanese companies to compete like the wsj
says...
businessweek and l.a. times the did a recent article where they talked about the improved queality of the korean cars and how it helped hyundai overtake mazda as the no. 5 asian brand of cars sold in the u.s.
toyo, honda, niss, mitsu and hyundai...
and analysts predict that hyundai will overtake mitsu for the no. 4 spot soon...
so there... the high cost structure and very high labour wages of japanese companies is a major reason that the honda civcs are over-priced and under-equipped....
do the owners of civics and hondas think that they are driving a formula 1 car????? or something???
those racing engines don't last a few hundred miles and they have to get rebulit after every race... so do you still think you are getting a formula one car???
get over it... it's a dinky little under-powered and under-equipped 4 banger with no guts...
btw fyi honda sells on average a little over 30,000 civics a month
and hyundai sells a little over 10,000 elantras a month here in the u.s.
it's time for the koreans to put some pressure on the japanese...
so we americans don't have to pay $10 for a cup o' coffee...
do you wanna pay $10 for a cup o' coffee????
that's probably not even colombian?????...
and btw luifei korea has since rebounded quite nicely found the econ. crises three years ago posting around 10% growth in recent years... last year it was more than 10% this years the world bank is predicting around 8.6%...
all the major indicators including inflation, real estate figures, unemployment growth, are on par if not better than before the crisis... and it has helped to weed out the financially weaker companies...
it has actually helped strengthen the economy...
as for daewoo, they were in a massive expansion that included factoreis in china, poland, india, romania, uzbekistan, vietnam, etc... then the crises of 3 years ago sent the currney falling so daewoo was put in a cash crunch...
even daewooo is very popular around the world today...
no.1 in peru, no.1 or 2 in poland the largest market in eastern europe... they outbid gm for the biggest factory there...
a lot of companies have sold some stake in the companies but it was most on a partial basis...
and financial reasons were the main reason...
as one british contractor put it, the british and korean companies can create a synergy effect by utilizing british marketing with korea's excellent construction expertise and prowess...
hey many huge project were done by korean companies including the petro twin tower building in malaysia and the great water canal in the middle east... called by many as the eighth wonder of the world...
and the summit meeting between north and south korea has gone beyond everybody's expectations with both sides aggreeing to work towards a peaceful reunification... and exchange visits in the future...
already they have contributed to world peace and stability in asia...
let's hope they bring us some upmarket cars soon...
Ungh... I think I still dont get my point across. What I meant to say is that the number of Elantras on the road since the early 90's pale in comparison with the number of Civic. Thus, AIS should have much fewer call regarding the Elantra, not enough to make a representation of the "real" stats out there, or at least their representation will not be as accurate as Civic. Besides, how many mechanics "really" called AIS anyway if they have problem? Its not like all hyundai mechanics and honda mechanics going to call them when they have problem, remember, they only provides solution to those that are not familiar with. I sincerely doubt some mechanic will call them just to change the timing belt,hence skewing the stats even more.
They only have like 30 something technician, I doubt they can handle thousands of call each month.
Besides, their ratings and methods are inconsistent at best. For example: check out the Ford Taurus and the Honda Accord for instance. How can Carpoint categorized the PERIODIC failure of the transmission clutch piston that cost $915 to fix in the Taurus in the same category with the OCCASIONAL problem with the stop lamp switch in the Accord that only cost $85?? If its really based on the number of call/total problem, then there's definitely a problem with their method, since occasional problem will never reach the status of periodic problem,(otherwise they will call it periodic to begin with). Same thing with the cost outline.
Also, all this auto-site has preference over some brand and "disgust" over the other. Carpoint seems to rank Japanese car lower while raising the score of domestic. Edmund and Consumer Report on the other hand, seems to be the exact opposite.
the british had always been copying the germans in
design and engineering... look at the jags of 50
tears ago and the jags of today and you will find
the definite resemblance of the jags to the german
mb and bmw...
It's true! The man who designed the famous Jaguar
XKE had Dr. Porsche's 956 in his mind's eye. I've looked at this and I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.
However, Civics sold in the US are made in Canada.
Production from Japan, if there is any, has the exact price structure. Canada labor costs, taxing, etc. relate to the North American Free Trade Agreement and similar trade agreements.
The cost of living in Tokyo or New York doesn't come into it. South Korea's labor market affects the price of Hyundais. This does not mean that Hyundais are the same material quality as Hondas. It is apples to oranges Korea's economy to Japan's regarding US prices of Hyundai and Honda.
I recalled a while back an influential person in Detroit (I think it was the retiring head of GM) said this statement:
"...the only contribution the japanese auto maker have done to the auto industry is the coin holder in the dashboard."
I doubt he still think this way. Given time, Korean car maker should be able to make significant contribution to the auto industry (if they havent done it now). Besides, Japanese auto-maker copy everything from their American counterpart to begin with.
Personally, I prefer they stick with the tried and proven and just make it better than figling an entire new stuff. (hehe, sounds like that commercial..)
afficionado1:
Err... why do you keep bringing up the racing stuff? I dont think the civic owner are that stupid comparing theirs to a formula 1 (who is that stupid for pete's sake???)
Being no.1 in peru or poland hardly a big testament to them. IF GM or Toyota want to, I seriously think they can flood the market with their offering and create some serious competition.
I still dont think there's anything special with Korea. Right now they're enjoying the same thing Japan enjoyed in the 1980's, once the their cost rises, they will be less value-oriented. By that time, China probably going to take their place.
You didnt respond to what I said regarding Korean worker, since Japan achieved what Korea just now achieved in shorter period of time, they should be even more amazing that the Korean isnt it?
And regarding contributing to world peace and stability, THEY ARE PART OF THE PROBLEM to begin with! With their north and south division. Forcing the US to guard the whatever parallel that divide them. Sure glad its not becoming another Vietnam back there.
It only make sense for them to reunited, and still they bicker and argue about it until now, while leaving thousands (or is it millions now) of the N.Korean die of hunger... (i guess pride over reality).
For short, no, I dont think Korea are that amazing. They're just hard working ppl that try hard to succeed, and in some field, they have done a good job.
I could care less about coffee or Levis in Japan. i could care less about s.Korea being the largest shipbuilder.
I DO care that my care will last 10 yrs easy. i do care about reliability as a whole although there are lemons in every car maker. until the Hyundais prove themselves over the next few years, you are not going to change anyones mind.
Yes, stats are not always "facts" for many reasons. Two of which I can think of are: 1. The methods to generate and/or interpret data are flawed. Like Liufei questioned, if AIS used the total number of calls as the standard for their rating, itÕs irrational. 2.People who collect the stats are biased. They may intentionally or subconsciously "select" certain kinds of data. However, I donÕt see any evidence that either of these two cases apply to the CarPoint ratings.
Liufei:
ItÕs not that you didnÕt get your point across, but rather you didnÕt get my points. I tried to be as concise as possible in my last post, but now I guess IÕll have to be more specific.
Yeah, I know youÕre suspecting that AIS doesnÕt have enough calls on Elantra because thereÕre just less of them sold. However, I explained to you last time that what theyÕre using is probably "a ratio" or a percentage------ number of calls over number of total cars sold for each model in a certain year. For example (hypothetically), in 1995, thereÕre 100,000 Civics sold in US while 30,000 Elantra were sold. They received a total numbers of 100 and 30 calls for these two respectively. Their ratings will be the same since the percentage is the same. I donÕt think theyÕd rate Civic less reliable than Elantra just because of the absolute numbers of 100 and 30.
Sure, not all mechanics call in for every problem, but all cars are on the same ground STATSTICALLY, if the data pool is large enough. And what if thereÕs not enough data? They just donÕt have ratings for those. Guess why they donÕt have every car models, and why thereÕs no rating for cars less than 2 years old? ThatÕs the reason right there. Also, why almost all cars have a perfect rating in their first 3 or 4 years? ThereÕre just not enough problems for any of them up to this point to make the percentage larger than the threshold for "problematic". No poll or survey can be "complete" in that sense, not even the Census, right?
"Thirty-one automotive specialists make up the core staff at AIS." Remember, thatÕs just the "core" staff. ItÕs hard to imagine they donÕt have any secretaries, line-operators, bookkeepers, etc. They claim that they receive 20,000 calls per month. ThatÕs about 1000 per working day, and about 30 calls per person. Is it really so hard to handle 4 or 5 calls per hour? I donÕt think so. That being said, even if they boasted about the number of calls a little bit, I donÕt see much difference itÕd make whether itÕs 20000 calls per month or 10000 calls per month.
Now, about the example you described, to me, itÕs not that hard to understand. Let me try to give you a few POSSIBLE explanations. Remember that I donÕt know anything more than you do other than the info. they provided on that page.
First of all, PERIODIC doesnÕt necessarily mean "more often" than OCCASIONAL. ItÕs hard to compare these two in terms of "frequency". It could mean "predictable" while the other means the opposite.
Secondly, thereÕre only three categories in their rating system: good, moderate, bad. Although I also wish it to be more detailed, I can understand itÕs not that easy to do. So each category has a range. Maybe in this case, letÕs say, 0.9% of Taurus have that clutch piston problem, but only "more than 1% have severe problem" is qualified as "bad". While 0.3% of Accord have the lamp switch problem, only "less than 0.1% have (any) problem" is qualified as "good". So unfortunately (for Accord), they both fall into the category of "moderate". That may sound unfair in some cases, but overall itÕs reasonable and justified as long as the rule is applied to all the cars equally.
At last, itÕs nice for they to give you the details of each rating, isnÕt it? The three categories maybe too simple and too rough, but with the details youÕd know exactly what youÕre looking for. Besides, that shows they are honest and serious, donÕt you think?
As to the "preference" of certain websites, I have no idea and therefor no comment. Even if itÕs true, isnÕt it nice to have info. from both sides? I wish Edmunds would have some sort of rating like that one day.
My point is: if thereÕs no evidence of mistake or intentional manipulation of data, STATS is more reliable and more believable than just what you hear from someone who owns or sells a certain car, because it's unbiased and has much larger database.
It's Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra, remember?
I guess you would like to see it totally one sided!
And, that's because I have to deal with this often in my business. I'm the bad guy who has to break the news to customers when I can't get a decent bid on their trade in.
On seat comfort, that's another story. What is good for one might not be good for another.
A long time ago, there was a poster here who was VERY unhappy about the seats in his new Accord Coupe! He ended up trading the car and taking a loss in the process. Now, nobody else responded back agreeing with him. When I jumped in and said that I hadn't heard that complaint, he snapped back that I was biased, etc. Well, that was at least two years ago and I STILL haven't heard a complaint on Accord Coupe seats.
But, I don't doubt he was uncomfortable. I have no idea how large/small he is either.
He did lose me a bit though when he said that his wife was having the same problem....hmmm.
Does misery love company? Who knows?
because the seat back stops arbitrarily. A Lexus ES and the IS have no telesoping steering wheel.
Telesoping steering wheel sounds trivial but all Honda/ Toyota universal midsize platform vehicles have long windshields flat over the drivers head so that the seat has to go backward. The arms have to remain stretched out. My point is- NO ECONOMY CAR IS COMFORTABLE. Civic seats can't beat anything. To say that Civic seats are better than any similar car or any simliar car has better seats is a comparison about nothing. I drive a puddle jumping car because 1. I don't have money for something else 2. I am young and I don't know the difference 3. I don't have back pain.
CAR IS COMFORTABLE."
I disagree with that sentiment. I just came from an 8 hour round trip from D.C. in my Elantra.
The seats were absolutely great. I was not tired (unusual for me) and could have driven for many miles more. Overall, a very good car.
I notice some people harping that the Elantra only has price going for it. Maybe they were not paying attention to the Edmunds and Car & Driver comparisons. Both publications lauded the Elantra's performance. What the Elantra lacks is refinement. That is its weak point. The engine is loud. Me, I have the radio on often so I barely notice it.
Heh, but for 1 Audi 1.8T, you can get 2 Elantra, so its just depend on what you want....
And you're right, everyone has different preferences and biases, as long as it works for whoever purchasing it, it should not be a problem, thats the purpose of testdrive anyway.
about the audi 1.8T. that car has 150hp. the elantra 140. the elantra isnt even turbo charged and has only 10 hp less and 1/3 the price. audi should be ashamed of themselves. actually pretty funny come to think of it.
It wasn't an over all comparison (if I were talking about the car for reasons other than ergonomic superiority I would have to go into the 1.8 poor reliablity record...)
Honestly if you never had back pain I don't wish you ever know how bad it is how profound the pain is pain from the inside of your body out every second of your existence. It's bad!
I'll say this one more time for anyone who might be concerned with comfort: it's not the seats per se but the ergonomics of the whole car starting with the size and shape of the car's body (more vertical windwhield is better, the more the outside and the inside look like 90 degree angles the better). My Civic(RIP) is more comfortable
than the Camry I rented for a month. The Camry seat bottom is too short so you hold your legs up yourself, the seat has no lumbar support, the top of the seat stabs you in the shoulders, the seat bottom is tilting backward, the seat is too far backward to escape the windshield/roof, your arms are outstretched to reach the steering wheel and you have to hold them up. Torture. Don't jump out of the frying pan into the fire. Don't think
a car will be better because it is bigger or is the next model up. I would have bought a Camry if I had not rented one.
Elantra seat comfortable, but I continue to have
problems with it, and your posting does not make my back feel better at all."
LOL, of course you are right. I was only speaking for myself. I find the Elantra's seats to be excellent. As for not paying attention, I was referring to people that continue to dismiss the fact that the Elantra was considered one of the better performing cars.
At highway speeds I find the Elantra to be loud. The auto trans does not shift as well as my old Dodge Shadow.
Thanks
for trade in. So what's private deal price or insurance valuation price I don't know. The retail values are ridiculous. The trade in value on the car is $3,700.
If it has a five speed and no A/C, that will hurt the value a bit. That might explain the low price.
Before buying it, be sure to have a qualified Honda dealer or independant inspect the car!
That low price makes me suspecious!
Who cares about how many owners a car has had? This car may have had three owners who cared for it! This is far better than one cheapskate owner who never changed the oil!
There is much more to the condition of a car than the odometer reading! Miles aren't everything but many ill informed shoppers will use that as their ONLY criteria!
Like i said, your name says it all. you know how to sell hondas, not maintain them. ive embarassed salesman by knowing more about a car then they know.
Take it to a mechanic for a through inspection if you want the car, but for $4k, you should be able to get a car with lower mileage.
Btw Elantra00, IsellHondas actually appears to be among the few salespeople that have quite extensive knowledge about cars, so I wont be so quick to judge him like that.
I once even ran a 40 man repair facility.
My point is this, the odometer reading of a car isn't the only or main indicator of the car'c condition like Elantra thinks it is!
A well maintained car with 150,000 mostly highway miles can be in MUCH better shape than a 75,000 mile car that has been subjected to mostly stop and go driving and minimal maintainance.
ANY mechanic/technician will agree with me on that!
Sadly, 4000.00 doesn't buy much these days. Still, the Honda that was mentioned could well be a great value for that price.
Again, have it carefully inspected by someone who knows Hondas!
Mileage is only ONE factor to consider!
I bought my 88 Honda Accord hatchback dx in 1994 with less than 80k miles for $3400.
No long ago, a friend of mine bought a 9-year-old V6 Camry with 120K miles for $3200.
To me, $4000 can buy a much better used car than a civic with that much mileage.
However, if you want to stick with "Honda" and can't find other good deals, go for it, but try hard to cut the price down.
that a good car with 150k would be better than one with 75k that is in melt down. I'm not saying the market value is incorrect. But you deserve better for $4,000 IMO.
I deal with this every day and probably have a better handle on the market than people here who rely on what they read on the internet!
But, I'll concede that I have no idea what part of the country you others are from. It's possible that the market values could be different where you live.
the lowest Civic new for $10,000. It doesn't have air conditioning as far as I know. Big difference as opposed to the difference between 80,000 miles and 0?
If you work for a dealer you sell used cars at retail or at least you ask retail.
If I were a used car salesman wholesale prices
would seem cheap. In terms of value we have
no way to say the car in question was maintained
well or not. But I agree. It's probably a moot point by now.
And for isellhondas or anyone else out there who thinks i dont know what i am doing when it comes to cars. the sticker price for my 2000 elantra was $14400. i haggled with the guy for 5 hours and got him down to $10,800. Now thats a good deal. You have to know how to haggle and show you mean business. retail value on my car is [non-permissible content removed] after a couple of years, i am aware of that, but i am not going to sell it. i am going to keep it as a daily driver and buy a Honda Accord coupe or BMW 323ci when i graduate from college.
patch it up and sell it for $10,000. It's dented in front and there is a tear in the floor. The passenger compartment isn't touched. It's not going to be an unsafe repair job because of the type of damage. Many are not fixed right and are dangerous. You can get retail and trade in values at www.kbb.com
It's the supply and demand of an item that determines price. If the dealer sold you a car stickered at 14,000 for 10,000, then that's all it was worth!
The dealer holds the cards...he wouldn't have accepted your offer unless he was desperate. Otherwise another buyer would have paid more.
I guess Hyundais are really hard to sell.
And you are right about the resale down the road.
http://www.edmunds.com/roadtests/comparison/2000/economysedan/index.html
Check out where the Civic finished - next to last
Check out where the Elantra finished - third and missed second by a fraction of a hair.
Guess the competition has whipped passed the aging Civic in recent years. Too bad the consumers don't know this, as they continue to believe all the propanda put out by the likes of Honda salesmen.