Pontiac Grand Prix - 2000-2005

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Comments

  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    <<'m not unhappy with the 3.8's 205HP on my Bonneville SLE (5 extra HP from freer exhaust), but I'd take 240 or 260HP of the SC anytime. I just couldn't afford an SSEi.>>

    In '97 I could have bought the SSEI, but why pay $5k more for the same drivetrain that the new GP was getting? The GP had almost the same sized interior. yeah the Bonny was a little more refined and a few more gadgets and slightly better quality here and there, but was NOt worth $5k more.

    Why did they give the GP the same drivetrain as Pontiacs flagship Bonny? Pretty redundant. The 1997 GP looke a heck of alot better then the 1997 Bonny did.

    It's about time they are giving the Bonny that new 4.4L V8 with 280hp? as an option? They should have done that back in 1997 or at least in 2000 with the redesign , now I would almost consider one. But I'm not spending $5k more for the same drivetrain in the GTP.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    dindak, As for the argument on DRLs, You haven't proven your arguement either.

    In fact up until 1991 or 1992 DRLS were ILLEGAL in many USA states. I believe Saturn first started it here. Could be wrong.

    Arey you implying that the New maxima/Accord and other NON equipped DRLS cars aren't that safe because they do NOT have DRLS? GIve me a break.

    If they are suck great accident preventers, why arent' they mandated in the USA? Answer that one?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Okay, folks it's time to move on.

    This is not a "DRLs are good, no DRLs are bad" discussion, so let's don't go off on that tangent again.

    I also think we have firmly established that different folks need different HP strokes, right?

    So let's just agree to disagree and quit trying to do the impossible - make someone else change his or her mind about something which is clearly an entrenched belief.

    Lemme ask *all* of you this -- is there anything that "the opposition" can say to sway you from the argument you've been making? No? Of course not. That means you aren't going to change "the opposition's" mind either. We need to just accept that everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, just as we are, and give it a rest.

    Let's move on now.
  • tek3tek3 Member Posts: 20
    Thanks Pat, those were two very tiresome arguments. I'd like to pose this question to the board. If you had a budget to spend around $30k on a GM car and were looking for a fun, sporty sedan, what would you choose? I seriously considered a CTS but opted for the GTP because at that price level, I was able to get a great car with a lot of nice toys. The CTS at that price was too bare bones for me.
  • dialn24dialn24 Member Posts: 19
    Bummer to hear about that happening to your door. I know I would be pretty upset if that happened to my car. Have you gotten it fixed? If so, did it turn out alright?

    So far, so good for me. I definitely like my new GP as much if not more then I did the day I got it. I personally like the layout of the interior and have no issues with the "cheap" platic I keep reading about. Heck, I see no comparison whatsoever with this interior compared to the previous generation GP. This one is drastically better, but that's just my opinion.

    Basically, I am definitely very happy with my 04 GTP and haven't had one ounce of buyer remorse since the day I drove it off the lot.
  • orwoodyorwoody Member Posts: 269
    I was at a local tire shop getting a flat fixed and they had the August Motor Trend (I think that was it) on a table. I started paging through and they had a first drive of a CTS with the new 3.6L. I got called to get my rig right about the time I started to read the article, but I glanced at the summary and the 0-60 time was under 7 seconds.... I haven't been by the store to look for a copy, but thought I'd mention it here.
  • oldsman01oldsman01 Member Posts: 1,203
    You have to wonder if that review is for real or some kid. I was dreaming the other day and checked out Cadillac XLR pricing and noticed that someone has already posted a review there. Very funny as the first 10 saleable units of the XLR were just built last week so I really had to wonder if that person owns(and has actually taken delivery of) an XLR.

    gunit, believe me I'm a sucker for power myself but I would have no problem merging into traffic with 4 poeple in the car and A/C on in a GM midsize with the n/a 3800. Despite a modest 200 hp, that is a powerhouse of an engine and has very good low end torque. As others have mentioned, a Chrylser product with the "magnum" 3.5 liter OHC V6 is mot much quicker. Having said that, if I were buying a GP it would be the supercharged version simply because I like more power. Still for the average customer, the 200 hp version is more than enough.
  • oldsman01oldsman01 Member Posts: 1,203
    What all did the base CTS lack that the GP had? To me, the CTS is pretty well equipped in standard form and still has things that one cannot even get on a GP(i.e. climate control, auto dimming mirror, RWD). I'm not bashing the GP as I like it and while a loaded model will list near $30K, my guess is they will actually sell for less than that which makes the car a pretty good deal.
  • tek3tek3 Member Posts: 20
    These are some of the things I would have to give up had I bought the CTS:

    6 CD Player in-dash
    Sunroof
    17" wheels. I think the CTS looks far better with these wheels.
    Split folding rear seat
    Heated seats
    Sport Suspension

    Of course I would have gained rear drive and manual transmission which are major plusses.
  • midlifecrisismidlifecrisis Member Posts: 391
    I seriously considered a CTS. But even with a base model with AT, I was looking at $31K. And while GM in general has rebates galore, there are very little incentives on the Caddys.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    "GTP does out handle the GT and SE, has a larger anti-roll bar on the suspension and better/bigger wheels".

    It certainly does but does that make the GT a non-sport sedan?? Of course not. Compared to most sedans the GT is very sporty. You keep comparing the GT to the GTP rather than to the rest of the world of car for every argument. The GP is a sport sedan compared to most sedans, in any form.

    As for DRLs, they are being considered by US lawmakers. Cars with out them are certainly not unsafe (which I never said) but cars with them, especially as a collective group are safer. I thought you were done talking about them? ;-)
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    You are right about the dash. In general I think it's just fine. Some people expect more I guess and while it may not be as good in terms of materials as the Accord it's still better than many other midsize cars . Glad you like the car, I see more 04s every day on the roads.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    dindak, In my personal experience and opinion no front wheel drive car with a nearly 65/35 weight difference qualifies for a sport sedan, the GP does a pretty good job, but is no BMW or G35. The only GP I would consider as a faux sports sedan would be the GTP. Remember stiff steering and a stiff ride and 6.6 second 0-60 times don't always make for a TRUE sport sedan, the handling of the GTP at its limits is typical front wheel drive. The funny thing is that My '01 I30t with a beam rear axle handles better and could take turns faster then my '02 GTP with independent suspension and is more of a sport sedan then the GP is. Also the I30t has a limited slip differential that the GTP does not have. Only problem is that the I30t has very light steering, I prefer the GTP's heavier magnasteer. I'm wondering if it was the stock tires? The Goodyear Eagle RSA spd rating tires on all GTP of '02 and "03 seem to have a very limited grip, too much squeal in semi spirited driving and if you press any more then 1/4 way from a dead stop the tires burn out, seems as though Pontiac purposely set up there traction control to actually spin the tires then engage, where some systems are much faster to engage. I heard pontiac did that on purpose for their performance image?

     I do NOT consider my '02 GTP coupe with mods a sports car. Thankgod the insurance company doesn't either.

    The only reason I bought the GTP again in '02 was because of the $3k rebate and nearly $3k off for it being a leftover in sept. 02, Dealers couldn't move the remaining coupes. For $22k in change for a loaded GTP with everything, great deal, if I had to pay FULL PRICE today which is nearly $30k for a GTP I would spend a little more and get the G35 or 350z Coupe.

    I am done with the DRLS as per the board monitor. Amber ones are nicer.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    What tires are the new 2004 GTPs coming with? Did they finally dump the awfull Goodyear Eagle RSA's?
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    No, not many 4-cylinder cars will even be able to keep with a GP GT, only those few sub-compacts with specially tuned engines, like the Focus SVT or the Neon SR/T. BUt then it's the merit of power-to-weight ratio, not the engine's.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Starting in 2003 GM made ABS brakes an option on the SE and GT? Yet they were standard on all 3 models from 1997-2002! Another way for GM to make more $$? The HUD was std on the '02 GTP but made an option for the '03 GTP.

    The advantage of buying the GTP is more then just the extra 40-60 hp, most everything is standard, the only FOUR options I remember from 2002 on a GTP were sunroof, leather, highly polished wheels and BOSE. And you get a higher resale value to boot.

    For me I have always bought the higest trim levels on my car because you get more std features that can nickle and dime you on the lower models. You get more resale value as well...

    to get the HUD, onstar and tripcomputer and supercharger for only $3k more on a GTP is a steal, it would cost you MUCH MORE aftermarket to add that stuff... if you get a 5 yr loan that only comes to $50 more a month.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Evandro, the 4 cylinder Altima with 170+ Hp is almost as fast as the GP GT.

    The 4 cylinder Sentra Type R does 0-60 in 7.1 seconds flat... that is almost GTP territory....
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    The SSEi is loaded, not only does it get a more appropriate engine, but also a myriad of bells and whistles. And, yes, that pushes the price up by about $6000, unlike the $3000 on the GP...
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I personally would never pay $6k extra for an SSEI with the same drivetrain as the GTP and not much more room. The GTP is LOADED as well... except leather/sunroof/Bose, For me Pontiac's flagship has to offer more then a 3800 engine, finally they listened with the new 4.4 L V8 making 280 hp !!! But I believe the new V8 for the Bonny is optional and not standard??
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    My Bonneville has them and I don't think that they're too bad, on the contrary. Were they quieter, I'd shoe my Intrigue with them. Their noise level is fine inside the Bonneville's isolation, but I'm afraid that the Intrigue would allow their noise to invade the cabin more noticeably.

    And as I'm at it, valuing wet traction, comfort and noise levels, I'm split between Goodyear Aquatred, Regatta and Bridgestone Turanza, all hovering around $80.

    Has anyone here had any of these tires that could comment on them?

    TIA
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    Show me where you found that 175HP, 180ft.lbs and 3100lbs (18lbs/HP & 17lbs/ft.lbs) can be faster than 200HP, 225ft.lbs and 3400lbs (17lbs/HP 15lbs/ft.lbs)...

    Wait, I found out that the Altima reaches 60MPH in 8.6s and the GP, in 8.5s... Point taken. Yet, I'd rather have a V6 to merge on the highway than an I4...
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    For everyday driving the Eagle RSA are ok, but for any kind of spirited driving/cornering they squeal too much and I didn't care for them at all. They were ok in rain/snow.

    I replaced them with the upgraded size of P245 50 16" which have been fine, no wheel well rubbing, I used the Michelin Pilot Sport which are pretty expensive, but much better suited to the GTP then the Eagle RSA. Only downside is that the the Pilot sport SUCK in the snow, only drive them in the dry or rain.

    Yes, I would rather have the Grand Prix GT then a 4 banger Altima too, but the 4 banger Altima is pretty fast. and impressive to make 175hp. That is almost the same pwr as the 3100 V6.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    I have seen 0-60 times as high as 8.5 on the new 2004 Grand Prix GT, yet the previous generation 1997-2003 average about 8 seconds flat?

    Even the POntiac enthusiast magazine I got for free for buying my 2002 GTP claims 8.5 seconds for the new 2004 GT... may competitors 4 bangers are in that same 8.5-9.0 range now.

    Where did GM loose 1/2 a second on the new design?? Same engine and hp? Right? Only 50 pounds heavier? Even the 2000 Impala 3800 was clocked as fast 7.9
  • vcjumpervcjumper Member Posts: 1,110
    Other than styling I don't know what is "sport sedan" about it. Not a sport suspension, regular GM power steering system, automatic transmission and average power.

    If I had to pick FWD sport sedans I would say the Mazdaspeed Protege, Sentra Spec-V, Mazda 6, Altima SE, Jetta GLI, Max SE would be candidates.
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    gunit, I would like to give you credit for your knowledge (and your free time).

    I think I may represent a large percentage of car buyers. 0-60 times and horsepower are the only way manufacturers can "quantify" their technical abilities. "i.e.-- Acme's engine technology must be best because they have 21 horsepower more then Standard's engine." A car that is 1 second faster 0-60, while as much as 13% faster, still only gets me to my mother-in-laws: 1 second faster. I also happen to believe that there are so many variables in mesuring that they are not comparable from one source to another. I beleive that GM has felt comfortable with the 3800's performance as had many others who have purchased the various versions over the years. Only now that they were developing the new GTP Comp G did it matter to be competative.
  • bobbyz34bobbyz34 Member Posts: 10
    Hi, I'm a new poster to this board. I've been reading for a few months.

    I'm looking at getting a GT2 but I can't stand the wheels (painted or chrome). I like the 5 spoke ones from the GTP and even if I order the car the dealer says they can't be ordered on the GTs.

    Has anybody ever done a trade with a Discount Tire or national chain. Trade in new tire and rim for an aftermarket rim and better tire. If so, how much $ did they give you for the trade-in? Any advice or direction would be appreciated.

    Thanks
  • montanafanmontanafan Member Posts: 945
    http://gm.media.com reports Grand Prix sales up 10% over June 2002.

    Bobbyz34, the GTP uses 17" wheels and tires, the GT2 16" wheels and tires. Thats why you can't get the GTP wheels on the GT2. After OnStar and lumbar adjuster, the difference between them is around $1,375. Get the 17", supercharger, and full function tranction control
  • bobbyz34bobbyz34 Member Posts: 10
    I just got the full brochure for the GP. It includes 3 dealer installed options that will be available soon.

    I was happy to see that you have an option to replace the exhaust castings. The 3 options include:

    - 2 sets of dual 3" Dia stainless exhaust tips
    - Set of satin finish grill inserts with larger hex holes
    - Larger replacement for the rear decklid spoiler.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    montanafan, you can deny that Gm has sat on its laurels since 1997with the W body while the competition has passed it by, the GTP and GT back in 1997 was a much better value and bang for the buck back in '97 then it is now in '04. like Honda/Toyota they shoud introduce a new model every 4yrs, not every 6-8 yrs. Now 7 yrs later to only have 20 more hp and 5 more hp in GT form and not really be any faster, meanwhile the competition, max/altima etc have made much bigger strides in power and size. Who ever thought the altima would be the same size or bigger then the GTP with similar power? Not back in '97, now it is.

     All car testing magazines have slight variances, it also depends on the temperature, superchargers perform MUCH BETTER in colder/cool air then in hot humid air. . A 6.8 0-60 car will NOT get you any faster to your destination then a 8 second 0-60 car, I agree with you 100% I never said that it would.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Montanfan, your link doesnt' work, time will tell if the '04 enjoys the same 50% increase in sales the '97 achieved over the 1996. Hopefully it does.

    From 1997-2003 you could get the GTP wheels on the GT, they were all 16" back then.

    17" tires are MUCH MORE Expensive to replace then 16", I know from having 17" inchers on my 2001 I30t. that one inch is a big difference. In fact most stores in my area don't even carry 17" in stock, usually a special order of 3-5 days.
  • midlifecrisismidlifecrisis Member Posts: 391
    "if you get a 5 yr loan that only comes to $50 more a month."

    I would suspect $50 a month would be a big difference in someone's budget allowance.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    <<<Other than styling I don't know what is "sport sedan" about it. Not a sport suspension, regular GM power steering system, automatic transmission and average power.

    If I had to pick FWD sport sedans I would say the Mazdaspeed Protege, Sentra Spec-V, Mazda 6, Altima SE, Jetta GLI, Max SE would be candidates. >>>>

    VCJUMPER, Exactly my point, The only GP that ever comes close to being a sport sedan is the GTP model. Even the GTP is NOT a sport sedan, esp after owning my '97 and now '02 GTP coupes. Very fast, but only average handling and brakes. A very firm/harsh ride/excessive tire thump and feel every bump in the road and over heavy steering thanks to magnasteer do NOT make the GTP a sports sedan.

     again my 2001 I30t handles the SAME or BETTER then my stock GTP. I can take exit ramps much faster in the I30t more competently.

    I can tell you the GTP reliability has always been so-so at best or average.. doesn't hold up to the foreign competition.

    I went with the GTP because I love coupes, ROOMY coupes and the great deal I got.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Midlifecrisis, If you can afford a NEW 2004 Grand Prix I think you can afford an extra $50 per month to go from the GT to the GTP. We aren't talkin about a Focus buyer or Neon buyer. Don't you? $600 per year big whoop, cut back somewhere else. Go out to eat less. I always take out 5 yr loans on my car and usually pay them off in 2 or sometimes 3. Just in case I need the lower monthly payment.

    Right now I pay $300 per month on my '02 GTP coupe fully loaded, pretty cheap... only has 7k miles on it

    My 2001 I30t loaded except navigation system is PAID IN FULL, just finished paying it off and it only has 15k miles on it.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    montanfan, Yeah GP sales were up 10%, but Cavalier sales were up a Staggering 50%?? That car is ANCIENT and dates back to its 1995 introduction. Just goes to show that people will buy anything. I don't care what kind of newer 140hop echotech engine, it is still a chassis/platform that dates to 1995 !! Other then the revised front and backend.

    That car needs a redesign.

    BTW.. I have seen people stuff the Supercharged 3800 into the Cavalier, that makes for an intersting combination.. ha!
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Evandro, The SSEI Bonny MSRP at nearly $35k loaded, I woulrd rather have a 255hp Infiniti I35 that has a longer 4yr 60k warranty vs 3yr 36k warranty better resale value and better build quality/reliability and FREE Loaner cars, Plus ytou are getting an Infiniti instead of a Pontiac...

    I have seen leftover 2003 I35's with leather/sunroof for $28k, very good deal, much better then paying for a lesser Bonneville. I35 is almost as big and has the same or faster 0-60 times. Just have to watch with the torque steer.
  • midlifecrisismidlifecrisis Member Posts: 391
    "Midlifecrisis, If you can afford a NEW 2004 Grand Prix I think you can afford an extra $50 per month to go from the GT to the GTP. We aren't talkin about a Focus buyer or Neon buyer. Don't you? $600 per year big whoop, cut back somewhere else. Go out to eat less. I always take out 5 yr loans on my car and usually pay them off in 2 or sometimes 3. Just in case I need the lower monthly payment."

    Well, $50 a month only covers the loan payment difference. If you include the price of premium gas, the reduction in MPG, and the increase in insurance, you're probably looking at closer to $1000 more a year for the GTP. Although that is not unattainable for some people, it is still a significant amount of money.

    And for your information, I certainly could afford a GTP. I could afford a BMW 7-series if I really wanted it. The question is how much I want to spend on a car, not how much I can afford. It's like when you look to buy a house and the realtor tells you that you are prequalified for a $400,000 house. That doesn't mean you want to go out and tie yourself up with really high mortgage payments (although many people do).

    I agree with your philosophy of getting 5 year loans and paying them off early. I've done the same thing with my mortgage by making extra principal payments. I will pay the original 30-year mortgage off in 20 years, but still have the flexibility of not paying higher payments if my financial circumstances dictate.

    I bought a 2002 Avalanche and pay about $300 a month. I got the payments pretty low on a $35K vehicle because of trading in a paid off vehicle with equity, GM Mastercard credits, GMS supplier discount, good APR and rebates. Everyone else I know is paying $500 a more for the same vehicle. No thanks - I'd rather not get saddled with high payments. When and if I can work a deal for the GTP with reasonable payments, I'll decide whether to go for it then. But for now, I'll take delivery of my GT2 in a couple weeks and be a happy camper. At least I sure hope so.... :)
  • richm4richm4 Member Posts: 169
    "What was the price differential between the GTP and CTS at the time? About the harsh ride, do you have a Comp-G?"

    The difference between the CTS with the Lux package I was considering and the GTP I bought was about $5,000. I kind of "cheaped out" to save $5K and gain a year of deferred depreciation with the 04. Don't get me wrong, I do like my GTP, but I think I may have liked the CTS a little better.

    Actually, I would have really preferred to buy a Lexus ES300 if I could have transplanted my trusty old '98 GP GT's 200HP engine and silky smooth transmission. The 210HP ES300 engine and 5-speed trans really suck big time.

    About the Comp-G, I purposely didn't get it solely due to the rough ride the magazines were complaining about. I figured the GTP's ride would be somewhat smoother, but I guess I was wrong.
  • regfootballregfootball Member Posts: 2,166
    RS-A's are not great tires, loud.

    Interstingly I saw a recent ad for base Infiniti G35's for under 26 grand. At that price, that wipes butt all over a GP.
  • johnclineiijohnclineii Member Posts: 2,287
    When I replaced my RS-A's on my 98 GTP with Dunlop Sports, the car handled better than when it was new, and the noise level went down drastically. Same thing when I replaced the crappy GA's that came on my Impala. Irony or ironies, Goodyear OWNS Dunlop. Go figure.
  • b4zb4z Member Posts: 3,372
    I drove the '04 CTS 3.6L yesterday.
    Quite the engine and transmission.
    I posetd a review in the CTS thread.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    gunit : I consider a sport sedan (not a sports car) anything that has good power and handles well. Maybe it's a broad definition, but I consider the GP a sport sedan in GT or GTP form. Mazda 6 (6 cyl), V6 Accord, Intrigue, V6 Passat, Maxima, V6 Altima and a few others are all in that group. Camry, 4 banger versions, Taurus, Buick LeSabre and a few others are not.

    midlife : I agree. It's about C$4500 list more for a GTP up here and with added insurance and gas costs it can add up for something you may not want or need. The GTP also has a harsher ride which may not be good for people who live in areas with bad roads. GT2 seems to me to be the bast value with ABS and alloys standard.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Midlifecrisis,

    I 100% agree with you, That is a good price on your 2002 Avalanche. Just like you I've been making extra payments on my 30yr mortgage so that I will be done with it in in 20 yrs and saving nearly $100k in the process. I usually pay my 5 yr car loans in 2-3 yrs as long as finances dictate. I refuse to pay any more then $350 per month for a car.

    One of my friends just leased a new pacifica for nearly $500 a month, can you imagine? In 3 yrs they will have nothing to show for it.
  • gunitgunit Member Posts: 469
    Dindak, we just have a difference of opinion, we are entitled to it, I don't consider any Front wheel drive car a sports sedan, esp with 65/35 weight distribution. My 95 Aurora was 70/30, The V6 camry has heavy understeer and bad body lean, I followed one in the twisties the other day, the new '02, he was leaning all over the place, There are some 4 bangers like the Sentra R that are pretty impressive, watch out for WRX that will spank a GTP handling and pwr and only has a 4 banger, I consider a BMW/Mercedes/G35 a true sports sedan and with near 50/50 weight distribution.

    In 2002 the GTP was $3k more then a GT, but with that, you got many features that were OPTIONS on a GT, like HUD, ONSTAR, DIC, better radio, etc. That was more then offset by the $3k rebate. Yes gas and insurance is more, but I figured the GTP to cost me about $1k more per year total, big whoop, esp based on what I was getting, my opinion.
  • dindakdindak Member Posts: 6,632
    No Camry is sporty. They are made for old people like Buicks.

    When I said 4 banger sedans, I meant mid-size, not pocket rockets.
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    $35G is way too much for a car in my budget. In this price range there are other options, but none is a full-size.

    But I get free loaners even for my SLE...

    As a matter of fact, I find the I35 hideous. The G35 is much more appealing, IMO.
  • oldsman01oldsman01 Member Posts: 1,203
    $500 a month and it is a lease? Geez, that seems to defeat the whole attraction of leasing as a lease typically nets you a lower monthly payment. My guess is due to Chrysler's historically low residual value, the leasing companies are playing it on the conservative side with the Pacifica until they have been around a few years.
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    Gas is cheap, premium or not. At roughly 10% more, it amounts to about $150 more per year. I don't think that it would make a whole in anyone's pocket who just bought a new car...
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    I don't want that stripped G35, believe me. Actually, it sounds like a bait and switch scheme.

    But, yes, many imports' prices are falling while GM's are rising... :-P
  • evandroevandro Member Posts: 1,108
    I wouldn't say "only a 4-banger" when it's fed by a high-pressure turbo...
This discussion has been closed.

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