Toyota Prius (First Generation)

wwest · April 2003

It all depends on whether or not you want your grandkids, and their kids, and so on, to be able to breathe.

Think FUTURES !!

daysailer · April 2003

The Accord offers SULEV without so severe a performance penalty.

lenscap · April 2003

The photos of the new Prius are up at wieck.com/public. Once on the home page, pull down the auto show drop-down menu and go to 2003 New York.

jrct9454 · April 2003

...and see good pictures and the complete text of the press release.

This is ALL GOOD NEWS; the car is bigger inside, has a huge cargo area, features more power and lower emissions [CA cars will be PZEV, which for all practical purposes means the emissions are too small to measure, and features a 150k warranty on the system], and still lower fuel consumption. Claimed 0-60 times are in the mid 10s. The AC works off an inverter, no longer tied to use of the gasoline engine, and thus will keep the car cool all the time, in any climate. As far as I can tell, they fixed everything anybody has complained about, and then went a bit further. VERY IMPRESSIVE.

I'm convinced - if there is a better balance of automotive virtues available out there right now, I'm hard-pressed to think of what it is. For anyone who cares even a little about how the car fits into the society as a whole, but doesn't want to "give up much" to do the right thing, this car should be the answer.

raychuang00 · April 2003

I just saw pictures from Toyota's web site about the 2004 Prius.

The new model reminds a LOT of a Honda Civic CRX writ large, and front dash is definitely inspired by the 2004 Sienna minivan. I'm impressed that the new Prius has more interior space, more performance, less fuel consumption and effectively zero exhaust emissions with the new design--Toyota has definitely learned from the original Prius drivetrain design and applied new technology to make it better.

little_pogi · April 2003

Raychuang00,

Can you please guide us to the specific Toyota web page you saw pictures of the 04 Prius. Appreciate it.

nippononly · April 2003

PZEV means nothing more than SULEV for tailpipe emissions. The ways in which it differs are 150K warranty on emissions equipment, and zero gas cap emissions.

The '04 is rated at 30% lower emissions than the previous model, which means it is still roughly twice the emissions of the PZEV Accord being sold in California. However, these are really tiny amounts of emissions in a historical context. Mid-50's combined EPA rating is pretty amazing considering it is a midsize car now.

I really like the new looks. I think one of these is in my future. Can't wait to get the rest of the specs. 106 hp in a 2850-pound vehicle is still on the low side for hp/weight ratio, but it is finally in the ballpark for compact cars.

john1701a · April 2003

>> do emissions reduce at a different rate than fuel
>> economy increases?

There are TWO types of emissions.

Yes, one does in fact relate to MPG. That is the emission of Carbon Dioxide (aka: "Global Warming" pollutants).

The other has absolutely nothing to do with MPG.

SMOG emission reduction (Nitrogen Oxides, HydroCarbons, and Carbon Monoxide) is what Prius focuses on. MPG doesn't make a darn bit of difference. In fact, some traditional cars are also as clean as SULEV, like Prius, even though they get much worse MPG.

It boils down to what cleansing components and routines automakers include in the building of a vehicle. In the case of Prius, it has all the hardware needed. It also has software that says WASTING gas for the sake of cleansing emissions is acceptable. So at times, the engine will run even though you don't need it for driving. This is for the sole purpose of producing heat which causes chemical reactions to take place that clean exhaust.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

s852 · April 2003

It's great that they improved the technology so it has more room and better fuel economy.
However, the styling is "different" from the curreent Prius, but NOT improved.
What is with the goofy, nerdy styling? Why can't a hybrid have mainstream styling?
They should have just made a hybrid version of the Corolla even if it lost a few MPG for extra weight and normal sized tires.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

FOR MANY 2004 PRIUS PICTURES

Go to www.wieck.com

Click on "Public" on the left side of the screen and type in Prius.

The styling is definitely different. The front looks like a cross between the G35 and Toyota's Estima minivan. I've heard quite a few complaints about the current Prius' proportions. This new body style works better on this type of vehicle, I believe.

Even if you don't like the new Prius, you have to give Toyota credit for reaching another milestone in the hybrid market.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

On www.toyota.com

Go to the Prius page, and on the right you will see a link to the "all-new Prius."

It has a neat interactive/flash program that you'll like if you have broadband Internet.

A new feature for this vehicle and any vehicle in the Toyota lineup is an advanced door locking system and engine start and stop system. I'm interested in reading up on this topic. I believe the new Solara, which will be unveiled tomorrow, will receive this feature also.

i_luv_toyota · April 2003

Looks kind of bloated to me, almost in the same manner as the 2003 Corolla, but not as bad.

I'll have to save final judgement until I see one in person, but for now I have to say that the looks could have been better, especially the rear/taillight area.

eman5 · April 2003

I like the way it looks. It's no Porsche 993, but I like the sloping windshield and the overall, .26 Cd, contour. Are the rear wheels closer together than the front wheels--is the rear end narrower than the front end--or is that just an optical illusion? I wonder about blind spots in the driver's C-pillar and rear views.

The form seems improved. The function is much improved, from the specs Toyota's provided so far. They do tease us with "tidbits." Ah, marketing... So bring on the first drives already!

i_luv_toyota · April 2003

What's the deal with Toyota and clear taillights? Witness the Lexus RX330 and now the 2004 Prius.

I hope Toyota changes these before the car goes on sale, which is supposedly during fall of this year (I would not expect a "first drive" until late summer at the earliest).

downtempo · April 2003

Crimsono2, you mentioned that you saw the Toyota FCHV on your campus, which school?

I think the new Prius looks great, too.

Lots of great technology and improved gas mileage.. wow!

nippononly · April 2003

this is how I would design my car, hybrid or not. I like everything I have seen so far. including, finally, 15" rims!! If I get one, it simply MUST have the keyless start system! Don't want NAV though. I hope it doesn't go up a whole ton in price from the current model.

gotenks243 · April 2003

I'm shocked that the Japanese car magazines were right in that it is a 5-door. As often as they change their mind, I was really skeptical. The car definitely screams "look at me, I'm different," the exact opposite of the Civic Hybrid. I think it's good that the choice exists.

There definitely is some neat technology in that car. And those little windows between the mirrors and the A-pillars? Can't wait for a test drive.

BTW, maybe this topic should be cross-listed in the Hatchback forum now?

Mike

daysailer · April 2003

are definitely improved and the hatch should provide improved utility. Too bad they've not yet seen fit to provide proper instrumentation in a proper location. Style is no excuse for poor ergonomics and some of us are not enamored with video games. I hope that Toyota's claims to a "sport suspension" will improve the sub par handling. If future generations further address the power/mass issue and the price can be made competitive, it may one day be a reasonable alternative to "conventional" sedans.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

The tail lamp design may change. Note, for example, the Matrix which had altezza lights as a concept but changed to traditional lights for the production model. In some pictures, the tail lights look good on the new Prius, in others bad. I'd say they'll look good up close and in person. I don't think the rear wheels are closer than the front ones like on the Insight.

I read somewhere that Toyota wants to sell 36,000 of these a year. I'm pretty sure that would be the US alone. This hybrid by far has the most utility of any on the market today.

s852 · April 2003

From some photos I've seen, it looks like the 2004 has little 13" tires. The styling seems similar to the ill-conceived current Honda Civic Si hatchback. They are both oddities in aesthetics.
From the photos I've seen on the internet, it looks like you have to be making a political statement to drive one.
"I am so determined to save the planet, that I am willing to be seen everyday in a clown car to do it."
All electric cars and all hybrids other than the Civic sedan hybrid have weird styling. Why do the car makers think that's what people want?!!

nippononly · April 2003

and wagons are making a big comeback, I am sure that is why Toyota designed it this way. Makes it seem like a crossover, and thus it competes for potential SUV buyers - have you seen how weird some of the regular gas-powertrain crossovers look?

coolguyky7 · April 2003

Toyota was smart for doing several things. First was making the new Prius large enough to be in the midsize class. Second, the Prius' cargo space is unparalleled in its market.

As for styling, I don't think you have to be wanting to make a political statement. Its styling is reasonable, especially compared to the likes of an Element or Aztec, or even the new Scions. If anything, it's just too unformed in the front styling, like someone melted it into a blobby mass.

crimsono2 · April 2003

I go to UC Irvine. It had the usual DVD Nav and stuff, but I really liked the rear mounted camera situated above the license plate in between the plate lights. It showed a black and white view on the display of people's feet that were standing behind the car ogling at it.

spidermonkey · April 2003

I think the 2004's styling is a big improvement. As for hybrid styling being so different, I think part of that is to reduce drag. The drag coefficient for the new Prius is .26 while I think the average sedan is somewhere around .30. I think the Insight has an even lower drag coefficient. Plus the designers probably have a new challenge in trying to locate the batteries in an optimal position. I'm not intimately familiar with the physics of the wheels, but I think that smaller wheels require less torque to create the straight line force than a larger wheel. So while I think there are marketing reasons for differentiating hybrid styling, I think it is more due to form following function.

thalanor2001 · April 2003

From some photos I've seen, it looks like the 2004 has little 13" tires. The styling seems similar to the ill-conceived current Honda Civic Si hatchback. They are both oddities in aesthetics.
From the photos I've seen on the internet, it looks like you have to be making a political statement to drive one.
"I am so determined to save the planet, that I am willing to be seen everyday in a clown car to do it."
All electric cars and all hybrids other than the Civic sedan hybrid have weird styling. Why do the car makers think that's what people want?!!

CAPITALIZATION ONLY USED TO DISTINGUISH FROM THE ABOVE QUOTE. NO SHOUTING INTENDED.

WELL, THAT COULD HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT SOME DO LIKE THIS DESIGN. (MOI, PAR EXEMPLE.) I GUESS BEAUTY - STRICTLY SPEAKING - IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER ;-)

P.S.: WHY IS IT THAT THE PEOPLE AT EDMUND'S HAVEN'T RELEASED ANY ARTICLES ON THE TOYOTA PRIUS YET. THERE IS NO INFORMATION HERE WHATSOEVER! EVEN WHEN ONE CLICKS ON "FUTURE CARS - CARS COMING OUT WITHIN THE NEXT 12 MONTHS" THERE IS NOTHING!

jrct9454 · April 2003

...I think the wheels on the '04 will be 15"ers. Still narrow, of course - wide and low aspect ratio tires create more drag, and given the mission of this car, are a no-no. My personal guess is 185/65x15s, or even a new size just for this car, 175/65x15s. The first-gen car uses 175/65x14s, a size that was virtually unused before the hybrids came along.

And there is an interactive addition to the ToyotaUSA website that allows you to sign up for future updates; it contains mostly info and pix we've seen already, but a couple of new angles.

gsowards · April 2003

i actually read on the new prius site that they will be 15"ers. not huge, but not the 13-14"ers that some worried about. this car definitely has a funky look, but i'm willing to reserve judgement until i see one in person. now that they've gone w/ a hatch -- well -- liftback, most of my complaints are gone. hopefully, they made the new prius a little safer as well (i noticed that they will offer side and head curtain airbags and vehicle stability control... great!). ugly or no, toyota is one of the only companies (along w/ honda and vw) doing anything interesting w/ fuel economy. toyota's now in the pole position for my next car purchase unless someone comes up with something better (more fuel efficient) by the end of the year.

john1701a · April 2003

>> Still narrow

Good deal, that's better for digging into the snow & rain rather than just floating on top of it.

>> The first-gen car uses 175/65x14s

No, the first-gen (Japan 98-00) also used 15" tires. They switched to 14" for the second-gen (Worldwide 01-03). Now for the third-gen (04-?), they're back to 15"

>> a size that was virtually unused before the hybrids
>> came along

Huh? There are a whole bunch of standard-load tires of that size available. I think you mean "extra-load".

JOHN
http://john1701a.com

dogmom2 · April 2003

Also, do you know the exact dimensions for the trunk area? Will a DVD for kids play on the DVD navigation system?

Thanks. The 2004 Prius is appealing, but I've got to consider the kids and long trips, too.

thalanor2001 · April 2003

The following was posted at the Hybrid Cars Forum ( http://www.hybridcars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=167 ):

All the auto manufacturers have to meet CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) requirements. Every hybrid they sell allows them to sell more Minivans and SUVs where they make the most of their profits.

Suppose these were the numbers (for simplicity sake)-
CAFE to meet is 25MPG.
Suppose that every Hybrid gets 50MPG, that gives them a surplus of 25MPG from just one vehicle sold.
Suppose every Pilot gets 20MPG, that means they can sell 5 Pilots and still break even on CAFE for every one Hybrid.
Suppose they lose $2000 on every Hybrid, they can now sell 5 more Pilots at a profit of $5000 each.

Losing $2000 allows them to make $25000, netting $23000... not a bad deal.

Does that mean indirectly we are subsidizing the sales of SUVs?

What do you think?

jackatwork · April 2003

I'm 6'4" with a 36" inseam. I have a 150 mile per day commute, and the 2004 prius seems like the ideal solution. Anybody know if Toyota will finally get over it's typical predjudice against 'Height Advantaged' drivers for this car? The current prius is a disaster in the legroom department.

I have yet to sit in any Toyota vehicle that I could get comfortable in....much less survive my lousy commute. This is why I put up with the lousy build quality and poor mileage of my very comfortable to Explorer.

nwng · April 2003

If you buy a lexus (high profit margin),are you subsidizing the folks who are buying a corolla(low/slim profit margin)? Think about it if you take out the CAFE requirements.

It's all about supply and demand

mpgman · April 2003

mpgman · April 2003

How about raising the level of the center console cover to make it a functional armrest, instead of having it almost at floor level?

jas9297 · April 2003

"Does that mean indirectly we are subsidizing the sales of SUVs?

What do you think?"

--No. SUVs are "trucks" and are not part of the fleet CAFE Standards, so that a Prius would not offset a Pilot or any other SUV.

Most "crossovers" that are SUV-shaped are still classed as trucks. I believe there is a much lower standard for trucks and SUVs, but one thing for sure is they don't factor into the FLEET average, or CAFE as we normally refer to it.

What the Prius subsidizes is huge V8s or worse cars. But since Toyota doesn't really have any road hog cars, even the Lexuses (like V8, V10, etc muscle cars), there is not much to subsidize.

Even so, 90% fewer emissions is worth a lot, in addition to 55 mpg.

My first reaction to the 2004 Prius is Wow! I think I'll have to get one in a few years.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

I just saw a commercial for the 2004 Prius on NBC, I believe. Wow, Toyota must want to push this model hard if they are advertising it with little details this early.

s852 · April 2003

It is strange since the new car is months away. They still need to sell the 2003's that they are now making look old by pre-announcing the new model.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

There is a good demand for the Prius which has grown even as the car's design ages. I don't know if it will take longer for Toyota to switch from the old model to the new one in the factory process since it is a hybrid. It might take longer than expected and Toyota will run out of the current model before the new one can arrive and so the only thing to do is build a demand for the new one.

blane · April 2003

I believe that Toyota is "testing the water" by such an early release of information about the 2004 Prius, six months before they go on sale. Especially, where they ask you to sign up for e-mail with their "Start Receiving Updates" link. That way they can gauge what interest they are building. This will give them a gauge of what production rate to aim for and what the market will bear in terms of increased pricing.

koffedrnkr · April 2003

i was reading that toyota won't be sharing the 2004 prius synergy engine with tech-partner nissan until 2006. the soon-to-be-released ford escape hybrid is actually based on the existing 1st generation prius engine. in other words, toyota's technology will be in 3 of the 4 companies currently producing a hybrid and the only way to get the 2nd gen engine will be to buy a 2004 prius...or wait another year or two for the lexus SUV hybrid.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

Was the Escape hybrid created with Toyota's help?

jrct9454 · April 2003

The system Ford is using [or will use - they talk about it endlessly but haven't produced a vehicle yet] is licensed from Toyota and is essentially the system used in the current Prius. So Toyota will march on into the future, and Ford will do whatever it's going to do...

daysailer · April 2003

is Toyota's past? At least that suggests improved products. ;-)

nippononly · April 2003

the improvements in the '04 vis-a-vis the hybrid system are evolutionary, so Ford's new/Toyota's old system will still be pretty cutting edge.

The new Prius uses a much more powerful electric system for additional torque and a wider electric-only operation range. Also, it will have special A/C that can operate with the gas engine shut down, which in California is the most significant improvement, as far as I am concerned.

Until '06, Nissan will also be licensed to use Toyota's "old" hybrid system. So Nissan and Ford will both be operating it in their vehicles.

I like Prius a lot, but I can't wait to see Toyota bring this system to others of its models. It will create huge improvements in fuel economy for the RX and the Highlander.

rfruth · April 2003

The '04 has me drooling, hope its as good as I think, anyone know about A/C power outlets ?
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particlewave9 · April 2003

I remember that a few weeks ago (probably as late as somewhere last week), there were literally no accounts on the new Prius could be found on the web. But today I did a search on google, lo and behold, there seem to be tons of 2004 Prius-related links coming out of nowhere.

I just wish they had something I don't already know. When do you guys think previews and tests will start to emerge?

john1701a · April 2003

> When do you guys think previews and tests will start
> to emerge?

September.

Owners are the *only* good source of more than just "drive around the block" type review information. Reporters *still* don't provide much more than that for the current Prius, and virtually every article I've read has at least one misunderstanding of the technology in it.

So until you start getting real-world reports from actual owners, don't expect much more than fluff to be written about it.

And realistically, the 2004 Prius won't be a whole lot different from the current Prius in design, the specifications are simply higher. For example, because the thrust motor is powered by a higher voltage feed and it is allowed to spin at a higher RPM, the maximum speed for stealth will likely be around 50 MPH instead of the current 42 MPH.

JOHN
http://john1701a.com

canc · April 2003

John, what do you mean by stealth speed?

koffedrnkr · April 2003

information on the new prius has been scarce...but i did find a good crop of more detailed photos on a toyota press website. you can't save the fullrez images without a password, but you can save the smaller versions...and it's definitely worth going through all 7 pages (the better stuff is towards the rear)

http://pressroom.toyota.com/photo_library/display_photos.html?ind- ex=fulltext&kw=04prius

now here are a few of my questions....

1) since the new keyless entry system lets you approach, open and start the car without using a key...how easy is this system to hack? with a start button instead of a key...anyone who breaks/gets in can start your car...right?

2) i wonder whether the stock CD player supports CDR/CDRW/MP3. i wonder how hard it would be to get a line-in for an external source like an ipod

3) i wonder how well the new electrically operated AC system will work in warmer climates. since it can operate without the gas engine being on...does this mean you could leave the AC on, shut off the car and then accidentally drain the battery?

hopefully, we'll get some pre-release test drives soon!!

flagmichael · April 2003

If I understand correctly, the new optional keyless system will allow the car to be started if the door was opened with the proximity key and if that key is still in the driver's purse or pocket. There are some details I don't grasp yet, though.

Toyota Prius (First Generation)

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