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Toyota Prius (First Generation)
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Is that all you get for your money? CR also tested the Honda's hybrid Insight, another $20,000 machine, and got 51mpg. It seats two and weighs 1820 lbs. Testers at Edmunds.com got the same, after over a year of ownership. Total U.S. sales in its 18-month history are a miserable 7,500 units.
These "mass market" mpgs are lower than what you find on "enthusiast" Web sites. That's because those intrigued by the technology (like this driver) do their best to see what it can get. In fact, you can get much more mpg out of both conventional and hybrid cars if you try. When we look at this subset, Prius owners average around 45mpg and Insighters around 62 (mine shows 69.7). But this group is much more obsessive about mileage than, say, SUV owners.
So if you're an average Joe driver, it's pretty simple. Would you pay twice as much for a car that gets you three more miles per gallon?
Of course not. But the hybrids are chic and politically correct. And no American auto company needs a bit of PC more than Ford. So, after helping to spend our $1.5 billion in the PNGV, they announced last week that they're going to stuff hybrid technology made by Toyota (!) in their Escape SUV. That's gratitude to us taxpayers for you.
How much gas will this save? Consumer Reports got 17 mpg out of their Escape. Analogizing to the Echo-Prius comparison, expect an 8 percent increase in fuel economy for average Joes, or about 1.4 mpg. For this saving of about $100 in gas a year, you'll pay a premium of several thousand dollars, because Toyota's not going to give away this technology to Ford. In fact, this is where they will recoup some of their substantial Prius losses.
Escape from Automotive Reality
http://www.cato.org/dailys/09-04-01.html
I have owned both vehicles and the echo is the base version@$9995. Nope- not even power steering. No AC [you appreciate this best in Aug. in TN]. But it is a wonderful car for the price and definitely has Toyo workmanship. Prius- power everything, AC,ABS, alarm system,much quieter overall,etc.I think echoes with all options get into the $15000 range but still do not have near the standard equipment that the prius does.Over a period of driving each several thousand miles you see the Prius gets consistently 10 mpg above what the echo does in the same situation generally. So this story of the echo/prius comparison is getting old. They are NOT the same cars and do the research properly to know that or do not write or post a review- please!
Thanks,
Don
Nashville, TN
CR is a decent information source, but this is a flawed comparison of costs. To get to the amenity level of the Prius, you would need to compare it to a Camry LE at about $21K and you would still be lacking a few things but would have a larger car.
I agree that the Prius is a MUCH nicer sedan than the ECHO. I just wish Toyota would offer an LE version of the ECHO with Cruise, the nicer seats, nicer interior, and extra insulation of the Prius but keep everything else as is on the ECHO.
Many people prefer a vehicle without the extra cost of PW, PDL, keyless entry, alloy wheels, engine immobilizer, etc.
BTW, my wife and I prefer the seating height of Prius, ECHO, and Sienna over any other Toyota from Corolla to 4-Runner. We felt the Tundra seats were not high enough off the truck floor to be as comfortable as the height of P,E, and S.
Again, let me THANK YOU for all the excellent data you provide. I just get to know a nice Toyota salesman here locally, and he is gone next time I go in: Tarik who let me test drive the ECHO. Bob at another Toyota/Dodge dealership. Terry at same dealership where Tarik was. Based on our experience, you are a rare salesman who has built up a customer base with satisfied buyers who will buy from NO ONE else but you. Selling vehicles is a very difficult job and it takes a very special person to satisfy both customers and dealership owners.
Now, as to your question about Toyota's looses on the Prius, I can only parrot what I have read in the Automotive News. Toyota is very tight lipped about such matters but current speculation is a $4000 loss on each Prius sold once development costs are amortized. Toyota expects this technology to be around for a while and have a van coming out in a couple of years. By that time, battery costs should be down and development costs will be much lower so I'm not crying over Toyota's purported losses now. I'm just looking forward to the future.
I now own an Echo and it is definitely an apples to oranges comparison. As far as the money one would save w/higher gas mileage; I don't think that is the sole reason for buying a Prius. If money were no object I'd have gone for the Prius but the Echo is great in its own way.
Has anyone had to sell their Prius? I wonder what the real-world resale value is?
And yes, Cliffy is a great source of info!
I have one customer who was offered $30K by her boss for hers. He was desperate to shave 30 minutes off his commute by using the HOV lanes and was willing to pay for it NOW. My customer turned him down and yes, she believes he was serious.
I priced the Echo at $13,925 (Edmunds) loaded with all the options I saw on the Prius which retails for 19,995 (without delivery).
I appreciate the feedback that Prius has some upscale features not found or available on the Echo - alloy wheels, climate control, cruise control, engine immobilizer. - But these are only worth say several thousand dollars. Consumers Report and the Cato article do appear to be making an imperfect comparison.
The Prius's 70 horsepower is far less powerful than the Echo's 108 hp engine. This is a highly relevant difference.
BTW, there is no comparison between the Camry with 157 horsepower and the Prius at 70 hp. I drive 300 - 400 miles a day on business travel and there is no way the Prius could do this comfortably with only 70 hp.
I believe those consumers wishing to buy the Prius owners benefit from the statement they make about conservation and protecting the environment - which is fine. But there is no way the mileage benefits can justify the higher price for the Prius in my opinion. And eventually I would expect Toyota to charge to real price it takes to produce the car - such that they will not incur huge losses on this concept.
He told me the ONLY recurring problem this dealership had with any Toyota was with the Sienna Power Sliding Door which is VERY DIFFICULT to get properly adjusted.
Have you encountered any other recurring problems in any Toyota? My sister got a NEW 85 Camry LE that she sold to her daughter. It now has over 200,000 miles with no problems and has received minimal maintenance since the daughter got it in 1994.
Automobile Magazine ran a comparison test in their Nov issue that ran a Prius, Insight, and VW Lupo diesel cross-country to compare useability. Winner? The Lupo, hands down. One caveat: the Lupo had to have a caravan of VW technicians ferrying cans of EU low-sulfur diesel fuel to take part, since the crap that we buy as diesel in this country would immediately foul the car's emission system.
The latest diesel engines from EU ARE THE ANSWER; but we won't get them until our oil companies agree to sell the exact same fuel they already produce in Europe, here. Why this is so difficult is mostly a matter of economics, and the perception that no one in the US really cares about fuel economy.
Even Honda, which has avoided diesels like the plague, now agrees this has more promise than hybrids...but outside of the EU, demand is not great enough to move the whole question along. Another oil boycott might do it...
Diesel engine exhaust STINKS, diesel fuel causes problems in low temperatures, diesel engines pollute the air with not only stink but also noise pollution. Diesel engines are a plague almost as bad as Anthrax.
No smells, no smoke, no fuss. But the oil companies have to cooperate.
Do a little reading on this topic of air quality; the European Greens are the ones leading the charge to the new diesel technology. The main sticking point for us is NOX emissions - the US regs put heavy emphasis on this, and the standard cannot be met unless you have quality fuels. The EU has the fuel already, and they tend to focus on the total weight of all emissions, and CO2 in particular...at which the new generation diesels excel.
The best hybrids, by admission of all of the car makers, would be ones powered by small diesels accompanied by the electrical or perhaps another kind of energy-storage assist. Until then, for every place but the US, clean-air advocates are voting for the new diesels. I think they're right.
I would appreciate any links you may provide to support the claim of low emissions for these TD engines you mention.
I have yet to see any Volkswagen that feels as nice inside as the Prius. Volkswagen does not take them to the Annual Auto Show. We sit inside every Volkswagen (and all other vehicles)each January and I have yet to see ANY Volkswagen that has the quality feel of the Prius.
But the whole topic of the EU diesel revolution has been well documented for the past several years in all of the EU magazines. The english-language ones I follow regularly include CAR and AutoExpress, which is a weekly that has a good, if cluttered website.
And please understand: I'm not "claiming" these engines are low-emission. They ARE low-emission, meeting the current [and in most cases future] EU emission requirements, which are just as stringent as ours with the exception of NOX. As I said, the Europeans put more emphasis on CO2 and less on NOX, but even their NOX rules will get tighter in 2004.
I'm not "selling" VWs; but EVERY European car maker is producing diesels this very day that can get 35-50 mpg in a package that has good room inside and capable of good road behavior.
I think the Prius, and the upcoming hybrid Civic sedan, are the best of what we have available to us at this moment in this country if you care at all about resource consumption. But that does not make them the best alternative out there.
To answer your question, the big problem with diesel exhaust, particularly as it comes from older, untuned bus and truck engines in this country, is the combination of truly putrid sulfur mixed with too much carbon particulate matter. The latter is fixed with the new injection technology; the former can only be fixed with the right catalysts, but they are poisoned by the sulfur in US fuel...which is why we have to get the sulfur out of both diesel and gasoline to take the next step in emission controls.
Also in this issue is their wrapup on their extended test of the Insight, which only confirms that the Prius is a much more useable package than the Insight for everyday use. The new hybrid Civic should be a huge improvement...but not available until early Spring.
And one final thought: hybrids are currently being subsidized by both Toyota and Honda as rolling research projects. They both lose somewhere between $3000 and $8000 per vehicle at current prices, depending on who's quoting and how much of the amortized research cost is included. For this to be a viable, real-world future technology, the cost of the "storage media" [batteries, right now] HAS to come down. After over a decade of trying, both Honda and Toyota concede [and GM and Ford and MB] that they just haven't achieved that "Big Breakthrough" in battery technology that everyone was hoping for. This is another reason economical, clean diesel technology has to be on the table; fuel cells are clearly coming, but no one has figured out yet how to make them really efficient, since pure hydrogen storage is out of the question, and the reformers needed to convert gasoline or diesel to hydrogen "on board" is easy technically, but very wasteful.
It appears that the exhaust emissions of many newer vehicles has less pollution than does the air the engine uses for combustion.
I have an aversion to diesel engines based on my experience with diesel engine tractors my father had on our farm and the fact that diesel engines in the NEW trucks our FA Battalion took to Vietnam when we were deployed in 1965 had many more problems than the old gasoline powered 6 cyl GMC trucks of Korean War 1950's vintage.
Neighbors have diesel engine pickups and the horrific odor and noise are very objectionable.
Bottom line: Because of my aversion to diesel engines, the Prius is a much more attractive "Clean Air" vehicle than any diesel. Toyota is the most widely accepted #1 brand for reliability.
The engines in personal use pickups [especially the heavier ones] are allowed to get away with ridiculously looser emission controls than passenger cars. This too will change in the future, which is why everyone is working on as close to zero-sulfur fuel as the technology will manage.
I haven't owned a diesel since our '81 300SD, but after driving one of the new generation in Europe, it would be my first choice if any of the current MB, BMW, VW, Peugeot, etc. direct-injection turbos were available here.
Also, is the forst three years covered regardless of mileage?
BTW A prior posting insinuated that the squeaky dealer geets the prius. The story was that matches are made for the cars that arrive. Is this the story as you know it? would it change by region? I expect to see one arriving through Long Beach but I am thinking that there may be a delay as the web site for the dealer lists progress for all prius orders and I have noticed a lack of progression. (Could be "the watched pot" syndrome.)
Step one.
Step 2?
Power plants run on water, emitting water.
Sign me up.
The squeaky dealer does NOT get higher priority. These cars are allocated on a customer basis and not a dealer basis. I have not heard an answer from Toyota on whether these are true "custom" builds or not but I suspect they are. That being said, I just delivered my first car that did not arrive in the order it was placed. I'm betting this was an aberration. Every other car arrived in the exact order that it was placed.
Hows the prius on the highway and passing?
1. Do I go to the dealership, test drive the car, lock in a price, and then come home and order on the Toyota web site before returning to the dealer to confirm the PR? I've read horror stories on other discussion sites about dealers trying to add on packages or other costs and have the customer pay for something he/she didn't order. How do I avoid that?
2. Regarding maintenance, if my Prius were to break down in La Grange (where I live) and need servicing, what would I be able to expect from Toyota? Would they come and get it? Would I get a loaner?
3. Any further information on how the Prius performs in extremely hot southwest weather, particularly the A/C?
Thanks for your help.
Rob
An alternate method would be to call or e-mail the dealership about their procedures. You may find that the store can handle the pricing and deposit over the phone, meaning your first trip to the store will be to take delivery 5 months from now. All of this really depends on the store.
Ask good questions of the dealer. Make sure the person you are speaking to knows what they are doing. You may even have to call and ask the receptionist to be connected to the "best salesman you have" or to the manager who handles the Prius sales.
As for service, you do need to remember that only a Prius certified dealer can even do an oil change on this car. For any warranty repairs, you will get a loaner. Toyota is being very paranoid about Prius customers and are bending over backwards to keep them happy.
Has anyone else had this problem? any suggestions?
1) I've been told the NAV system mostly installs in the trunk space. Anyone know exactly where and how much space (dimensions) it takes?
2) How do you (or do you) tell the system your destination?
3) Does it use a GPS to tell where the vehicle is currently located?
4) When going to a destination address for example, are instructions shown on the screen? Are they also supplemented with voice output giving you directions?
5) I assume the information available on the DVD is for the continental US only? No directions for navigating in Vancouver British Columbia or Toronto Ontario in Canada?
6) At some point the information on the DVD might get a little out of date for some areas. Anyone with experience about how often is reasonable to get an update? What might the typical cost be for such an update?
Thanks very much.
For those who still care ...
1) Yes, it installs in the trunk. Dimensions were not available but somewhat unnecessary since it seems to install in a panel in the trunk wall, not taking away any existing trunk space.
2) Input is done on the touch-sensitive screen with a displayed soft alphanumeric keyboard.
3) Yes it uses a GPS.
4) It sounds as though driving instructions are both displayed and spoken. Don't know if it mutes the radio/cassette/CD sound system while doing so. Anyone know?
5) USA only on a single DVD I think. Anyone confirm?
6) Probably an update offered every year or two depending on demand. However the upgrade must be done by the dealer, says Toyota, presumably because of the way the system is installed in the trunk. Cost unknown but probably mostly labor.
I was told that this system is basically the same as the Camry and Lexus though some differences about the screen and things like the integrated telephony for the Lexus.
So I guess I'm still interested in feedback from those who have used it.
Other than that, Melen is right on.
Delivered two weeks ago (after about a 3 month wait, the great news is I now own the U.S. 2002 Prius with all of their options and it's incredible!
1. The navigation system works great.
2. The vehicle is very quiet (to outside sounds).
3. People ask me about the car all the time.
4. The radio is better than previous comments suggest.
5. It has a compact and easy to operate in-dash multiple-CD changer (who uses cassettes anymore!).
6. I recommend the side airbags installed on the front seats.
7. You will appreciate the cruise control although I found it slightly "jerky" due to having both gas and electric modes of movement.
Overall I enjoy the quality of Toyota products (after owning a 5 year old Camry with 120K mileage and my family all owning Toyotas) and think you would be crazy to consider the small Honda hybrid. I also recommend reading an interesting article about both vehicles in the December 2001 edition of Reader's Digest.
I've owned several Hondas and a dozen Toyotas, and don't see huge differences in quality and reliability between the two, but the driving experience can be very different. If I were a serious customer for a hybrid sedan, I would wait to try both cars before making a final decision.
1. Custom armrest for the Prius on-line at www.coastaletech.com. 5" or 7" height, quality, and worth the price. Other accessories available too.
2. The old adage about don't get a car in the first model year is perhaps applicable. I had a 2001 Prius and sold it to get into a 2002.The first model year was overall very good but you can tell some better differences in the 2002. I bet the Honda HEV will be a REALLY COOL car and already want one. But I really would wait for the 2003 model if possible.
3. The Honda press release states their HEV is the most fuel-efficient HEV sedan in America at 50 mpg. Well, come on, many of us get above 50 mpg on almost every trip we take in the Prius [2001 OR 2002] that is over 10-15 minutes driving time. So I would be happy to test that statement further. At the same time, I bet the Civic will be very good in its economy.
4. I am a relatively rabid Toyo fan but I would not want to try to make a living betting against Honda in the reliability department. Either one will be a great HEV. So if you really have a problem choosing and you can afford/need two vehicle- get one of each!!
Don Nashville, TN
We know many people who own each brand and there are many Hondas with reliability problems but NOT one Toyota.
Look at the facts: Honda put an impractical 2 seater hybrid on the market while Toyota made the 5 passenger Prius. Maybe Honda will get it right if they are successful in copying Toyota.
Has anyone gotten a Prius for under the MSRP? The dealer told me that Prius is going for more than than that on occasion.
What experience do people have with driving the prius in mountainous country during the winter?
I want to take it up to my country place in Vermont, but I have some concerns about how it will do in the snow and the cold.
Don