Toyota Avalon 2004 and earlier

55396 · June 2004

I have an 03 Avalon and had no ground clearance problem until I installed a Class II hitch that goes down and under the tail pipe. It drags. I think it is a Camry hitch though. The correct hitch goes over the pipe and should cause no problem. When the car is on a hoist for an oil change or at the dealer, it should be obvious what is bottoming.

55396 · June 2004

You write some good stuff, Nomad. I just signed up and was looking for wheel/tire/suspension information for my wifes 03 Avalon. I'll post history and upgrades later in a new post.

I have a black Lexus LS400. The paint would not shine when I bought it used. I started to work on it with a high speed buffer wih polishing compound followed with a 10" orbital polisher - the $20 type. I first used Chamberlain polishing compound for my polisher and followed with different polishes. I like to experiment and I find that a good result is just as much technique as it is product. Yes, you can pay a fortune for some products, but I haven't felt the need. More satisfying to go he budget route I guess. Only small improvements a first, but each time I polished it, it got better and better. I can't tell you the brand, but my neighbor who owns a motorcycle shop gae me a pink semi-liquid polish that really finished it off. The key though, was to use just a bit of polish on a nylon cover, apply, and lightly buff a small area until it burnishes dry. This is what produces the really good shine. The end result is that the finish looks like glass. I can re-do the entire car in about 15 minutes. The key is to not let it deteriorate first.

I just finished an older John Deere 111 lawn tractor that I painted with a spray can. I wasn't happy with the way the paint layered on, so I color sanded it with 1500 grit wet or dry paper, with water until the paint was dull and smooth, then polished it out the same way. The end result is absolutely stunning.

I have never used a clay bar. Gotta try it. are there different types of clay? Which do you use? Any special technique?

abfisch · June 2004

Kandor:

I have an 02 Avalon, and also have a hitch, I installed myself made by "Draw Tite". It is specifically made for the Avalon and the install was straight forward. The hitch cross member, actually hides behind or in front of the bottom fascia so it only reveals the female receptacle out the back. I hit in or rather scrap it once in awhile when the car is very loaded and/or I trail my utility trailer. But...before installing the TokicoHP struts, it bottom out much worse. There is no other part of this Class II hitch that drags. For those who choose to put this on, if you buy it yourself, rough up the surface and then spray it with heavy duty UNDERCOATING. It will prevent it from rusting for years. Take that for what it is worth.

I am not absolutely sure, but sometimes gas mileage depends on many factors, one of them not mentioned above is the gas, with some parts of the country or stations putting in additives that can affect the mileage up to 5MPG. So if any of you are getting terrible mileage and all other factors are excluded, you might want to entertain this and try switching brands of gas.

Tires:

My mechanic and friend both noticed my OEM Continentals finally starting to look shabby and they are starting to squeal excessively around corners over 45 MPH. So...I did a little research tonight and found good reviews for the following tires, specfically the Bridgestone Potenza 950 ($90), the NEW BF Goodrich Traction T/A which I got a price for the H rated of $62, and the Falken Ziex 512 for $52 including shipping. I ordered the Falken tonight, since all three above got excellent rating,and so it is now all about price. I will report on them after 5K or so, but it is hard not to beat the OEM tires that have over 25K on them now and have really started to deteriorate in performance.

Enjoy everyones input.

NOMAD56 are you alive??

"Feed the forum"

abfisch

55396 · June 2004

I think my hitch is a Drawtite too. I bought it used for $35 and as expected, it had some rust. I agree with you on protection. I usually repaint even new items before installing as I know the paint is thin and won't hold up. Too lazy to sand? Get some liquid sandpaper in a can. It will soften the paint for better adhesion. I had to sand and use a steel brush because someone didn't have the sense to do this when my hitch was new. Dealer installation, I suppose. Of course, that's why he had to sell it for $35. Original owner had no foresight. Ever notice that things are 'good enough' when elbow grease is involved? We are either too prosperous or too lazy these days.

55396 · June 2004

We bought 2 97 Camrys when they were about a year old. All was fine for a couple of years, then one winter they started this type of clunking. I thought it was snow/ice build up, as when we got to Phoenix it was fine. Came back to MN and it was back again. Our daughter took the other Camry. Guess what? Hers does it too. I never bothered to find the problem and just assumed it was struts. I sold the car after we bought our 03 Avalon. I will pull my daughters car over my pit and check it though. You sure can learn interesting things in these forums. Work together and we all benefit. My hat is off to those who run them.

55396 · June 2004

Are you talking about 00 Avalon, 02 Camry and newer? If so, it brings up an interesting question. If the part nunbers are the same for the struts, why couldn't we just upgrade to Camry SE components? I'm not sure if the price would have much advantage over the good stuff though. Does the SE have a heavier interchangeable sway bar and heavier springs? Are the bushings better and interchangeable? Wait a minute, if the struts are the same on these three, why is the Avalon so softly sprung? That would make it the springs, but they seem just fine. The struts usually control the movement. Over the years, I have improved many different vehicles with heavier shocks. Turns out the springs were just fine. Usta be that the tires needed to be oversized too. Our Avalon has the same size tires as my 90 LS400, and it is a larger, heavier car. Even so, it needs larger tires/wheels.

I remember way back when my folks bought a Chev. Citation. Before delivery, I took the salesman for a ride down the street at less than 30 MPH and we came to a 90 degree corner. I didn't think we were going to make it. The salesman said, "Geez, we're goin in the river." I hated that car. I blamed the springs and those damn incompetent engineers. Turns out the springs were just fine. All it took was to increase the tire pressure from 28 PSI, to anything over 32.

We had driven a few newer Avalons and I think they had the 16" alloy wheels. We liked the way they drove better than the ES300. When we bought ours, We were disappointed. Something was wrong. Over time, I figured it had to be the 15" wheels. So, my wife broke down and bought a set if 16 x 7 1/2" American Racing Chrome Snipers. I should have them on in a week or so after I decide on tires. 205x60's are a bit smaller in diameter, 215x55's are a bit larger. What speed rating. Probably H is a good compromise. Damn thing won't go that fast anyway. Then there is the brand factor. Decisions, decisions. I tell ya, being a perfectionist is a terrible disease. Drives ya nuts, it does. I'm leaning towards Goodyear Eagle LS as a compromise.

We were waiting for the Avalon to be redesigned in 2000, but we drove an early production car and were NOT impressed with how it drove and hated the high slab side, grille and tail lights. (Ever notice how the Avalon hood is raised in the center and the Camry is the opposite?) Then we thought about an 02 Camry V6, but they were dogs compared to, say, the Altima. But the Altima's we drove rode harshly and the rear ends clunked. Early production again. Then, we thought the 04 Maximas would do it. Naw, huge torque steer and looked odd. I do like the moon roof though. Oh, what to do, what to do. Well, boys and girls, along came this diamond white - the color we wanted - 03 Avalon with updated grille and tail lights. That made just enough difference that we could own it. Slightly used, but many thousands less than new. Hot dawg, that one is for me! (My wife, actually) I will post what has been done to it since we bought it, later. Can't leave anything alone ya know. Like Honda motorcycles, a good product, but they are like a-holes, everyone has one. I like things a bit different. Guess that's why I ride a Ducati. A buddy once said when they first came out with the 750 and the 90 degree V-twin, "They are so damn ugly that when you stop, you have to dig a hole and bury it." But, they ARE unique. And so, the battle goes on. Tell ya more later.

55396 · June 2004

I paid under $20k for our Diamond White 03 XL last year with 18k Miles. Enterprise had a silver one for $18.9k back then too. Check Autotrader.com or ebay, but I'm sure you have one by now.

55396 · June 2004

Lubricant discussions are always interesting. It does bother me a bit when an opinion is 150% absolute though. Usually, multiple positions can be taken and all can have some credibility, based on someones experience. I don't understand why one should stay away from blends. My LS 400 had Valvoline Durablend in it and I continue using it. I usually run Valvoline 5W-30 and have for over 20 years. My cars never visit a dealer unless for a recall. They never seem to break either. Of course, they are also Japanese. We usually sell them just before 100k, and they also run and drive like new when sold. I rarely replace brakes or exhaust systems either, as I live a couple of miles outside the city, so they usually have warmed the exhaust system and keep moisture out of the engine. If you look at what the dealer gives you for an inflated price, it will say 'Check this, Check that'. I can do most of that. Todays engines are designed to go 100k without a tune up. That's what I go for. If you have mechanical valve adjusters, for example, that's different, as things wear and change.

55396 · June 2004

I'm doing the tire/wheel upgrade also, going from 6"wide 205x65-15 steel wheels to 16x7.5" alloy wheels. I am torn between the 205x60-16 and 215x55-16. I have seen different brands mentioned in posts. After living with them, does anyone have any comments or updates?

We installed Goodyear Allegra's (exclusive to SAMS Club, but similar to the Regatta 2's) on my daughters 97 Camry and we were very impressed overall. Quiet, good ride and handling, and very good snow traction too. I planned to buy these, but they are not avaiable in my size. What SAMS does have is the Goodyear Eagle LS in T and H speed ratings ($72 vs $104) No mileage rating. Goodyear says they are a quiet riding luxury sport tire. Has anyone had experience with these?

Then at the Goodyear dealer, I found a nice looking new 80k mile tire called the Assurance ConforTred that shows a layer of foam between the cords and outer layer to reduce pavement slap. Sounds good, but I wonder how it will hold up long term and if there is a price to pay in handling. These were $101 for the 205x60-16's.

Tires Plus mentioned The Bridgestone Turranza-LS-H $135 for the 205, and the Continental CH-95 ($74 for the 205 and $101 for the 215). They had some really sharp 17" wheels too, the Veloche Vergio's.
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More from Tires Plus:

Description Price/Unit Quantity Total
Yokohama AVID T4 (205/60R16) BW/ $77.00 4 $308.00
Goodyear Eagle LS (205/60R16) BW/ $71.00 4 $284.00
Yokohama AVID H4S (205/60R16) BW/91H $70.00 4 $280.00
Goodyear Eagle LS (205/60R16) BW/ $69.00 4 $276.00
Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus (205/60R16) BW/91H $122.00 4 $488.00
Bridgestone Turanza LS-H (205/60R16) BW/91H $134.99 4 $539.96
Bridgestone Turanza LS-V (205/60R16) BW/91V $152.99 4 $611.96
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And here is a reply from Tire Rack:

The Avalon XLS has an optional 16" tire and wheel package and the tire size was 205/60-16. That is why it is recommended; you are correct the overall diameter and revolutions are closer in the 215/55-16. I have no wheel dimensions for this size. The 215/55-16 is only .4 wider and the tire is .2 of an inch shorter so the difference in the 2 tires would be minimal. You may see a slight degree of improved traction and slightly more road noise but not to a large degree. A higher speed rated tire has a stiffer sidewall so it would increase your feeling of the road and it's imperfections. It would however, also give you more handling and steering response and better cornering. There is a trade off and you need to decide what is most important: ride or performance? best compromise tire would be the Michelin Pilot Sport AS for performance lean and Continental Extreme Contact for ride comfort. Let me know if you need anything else.

Thank you,
Emily
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One thing that I didn't understand. The Goodyear dealer said there was an Avalon Sport Package that used 215R60-16 tires. These have a .7" larger diameter and would give a plus 2.6% error. Is there such a package? If so, does it require different suspension geometry and a transmission chip change to correct the error?

I would appreciate any and all comments and experiences. The fact that my new wheels are 1.5" wider makes me wonder if it would be too wide for the 205's.

Thanks,

Jerry

bwia · June 2004

55396, I agree with TireRack Emily's comments.

A higher speed rated tire has a stiffer sidewall so it would increase your feeling of the road and it's imperfections. It would however, also give you more handling and steering response and better cornering.

Last week I purchased a set of four Michelin Energy MXV4 Plus (205/60R16) V-rated tires for my 2000 XLS. I replaced the originals after 37,200 trouble-free miles. I was looking for the original smooth soft ride that I had become accustomed to. At first I did not like the ride because it felt like I was driving on an unpaved surface, but now I have adjusted and prefer the better handling to the soft cushy ride of yore. Damn, the highway drive is pretty satisfying now.

I also replaced one of my alloy wheels that I purchased online from http://wwww.toyotapartspro.com for $278, a price that is almost half the dealer price. I had it installed at Sears for free since I had purchased my tires from them. Abfisch, the new wheel did make a significant difference. The car now handles as good as when I got it four years ago. I must say I went to bed with a smile on face after a long drive yesterday.

And by the way, I just wanted to say that my online buying experience with Toyotapartspro.com was great. I got my brand new wheel in 4 days delivered to my front door. The Internet has really made shopping fun, easy and most importantly cheaper.

pat · June 2004

Just in case folks haven't found it yet, let me tell you that the Town Hall is most fortunate to have a Tire Rack rep right here in the Ask Connor at the Tire Rack discussion. Check it out.

55396 · June 2004

I agree about online purchases. I bought a color matched lighted spoiler, mats, woodgrain interior, cargo net, gold pkg, etc - all online, from 3 different Toyota dealers and aftermarket. Most found through ebat. Spoiler alone was $690 on a dealer car. I paid $135 with a Diamond White Pearl color match and in the $400 range for the items above, EZ install too. The worst being that I had to drill a couple of holes for the spoiler. The woodgrain had more pieces than factory too. I did cheat on the gold pkg. though. I made it an XLS. Who is gonna know?

Also, I understand the trade-offs between the 60 vs 55 sidewalls and the H vs V speed ratings. But what I don't know and what is difficult to explain the degree that they occur. Can you take a stab at this? Any more, pavement slap/road noise is very irritating, as is feeling every road imperfection at slower speeds - even if it isn't spine jarring. Yet, we like a car that is fun to drive (and we bought an Avalon?). In view of this, I would probably go with the H instead of the V speed rating. The question is, what is the % of diffeferce between them in NVH.

I've always had Vettes and muscle cars and have a 55 Chev with a 425HP big block in it. I guess I'm looking for the best compromise for the Avalon. If I lived in the south with smoother roads, my choices would be different, but in northern climates the roads can be rough.

There are ads in Autoweek for alloy wheel straightening services too.

abfisch · June 2004

Forum:

I think there can be an argument to use Camry SE performance parts but I have no idea if they work or fit. If anyone else does, please comment.

I find the above discussions, while full of info., a little like putting the cart before the horse. What is it you are trying to accomplish with different wheel and tire combinations??? What type of driving do you do??? What type of weather do you drive in mostly??? Do you realize that putting these differenct tire combinations on, is a recurring expense both in initial outlay for the bigger wheels and tires as well as a decrease in longevity with a larger tire???

If you don't like the exact why the Avalon rides, than focus on what you don't like about it and start from there. The tires and wheels are probably the LAST thing to change initially, if you desire a most "sport" oriented ride. If you are satisfied with the ride, you might want to get change the tire to a high performance but same size tire. You will still get a relatively soft compliant ride with a bit more responsiveness.

The objective data from CR, listed the CONS for the 03 model as "excessive diving while braking", "light and fuzzy steering" and secure but NOT NIMBLE handling. Tires will only compensate, but not correct 1 out of these three deficiencies!! There weren't many other CONS. The PROs for this vehicle were more numerous although I could think of a couple of more CONS with almost 50K on my 02 Avalon right now.

Those interested, would probably get benefit from an old book titled 'How to make your car handle", circa 1970's. The information, as far as suspension systems while dated is timeless.

It would best serve those interested, to get a basic knowledge of suspension systems and geometry before messing around with different wheel and tire combinations.

"Feed the forum"

abfisch

gerry100 · June 2004

To whom it may concern-

KYB customer service has responded to me that they have GR-2 struts to fit 2003 Avalons
(Right front - PN 334245, Left front - 334246,Right rear-334133,Left rear-334134).

Tokico responed that they h nothing for an '03, just up to '02. Doesn't sound right but I'm not going to argue.

The KYBs are a little cheaper I think and some think they are as good , so i'm going that way.

abfisch · June 2004

Gerry100:

You did the correct thing in calling the companies. That is what I would have done..KYB makes a quality strut, much better IMO than the "stuff" that Toyota calls OEM. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with the difference. If you live in an area exposed to salt, then you might want to recall KYB and ask them what they recommend to protect the strut further from corrosion. I did this when I installed the TokicoHP's without harming the stainless rod or covering the ID number stamped into the struts for warrranty reasons. Although you will not have that "white" color of the KYB under your car, spraying them with a heavy duty undercoating without harming the piston or seals, will further enhance thier longevity before they are installed. Remember, you will need to get a F and R alignment too, usually another $70 or so.

Let us know how it all works out. I hope you get the same satisfaction as others, as I think this is one of the weakest links in an otherwise, fine but plain, 4 wheel independent suspension. Mine rides much more like a police interceptor these days, especially with all the highway driving I do.

Let us know how it goes.

abfisch

mcclearyfl · June 2004

Well, I tried to follow up with the Finance Department at my local Toyota dealer about the $730 6-yr, 100,000-mile bumper to bumper extended warranty.

Turns out my salesman is no longer with the company, and no one knows of any such deal. Seems like he was mistaken, confused or trying to get me in the store. The Toyota Company website does provide a Platinum deal which is extensive, but we are talking over $1400.

55396 · June 2004

Thanks for the comments. In the past, I have found that the spring rates from the factory are not that far off. Example: My wife had a Ford Fairlane 500 V8 when we got married. When you turned a corner, it leaned and acted like the front tire wanted to eat the fender. I put the larger, wider wheels and tires from my Roadrunner on the Fairlane and it magically transformed into a different driving car. Next I installed Monroe super duty shocks, which were almost too firm, but after a trip to Arizona to break them in, the package was about ideal. My feeling is that the springs in the Avalon are OK and may only need a bit more control. I'm anxiously awaiting feedback on the KYB installation. We chose the 16" wheels for a couple of reasons. This is the optional size, cars we have driven with them on drove much better than ours w/15's - although tires may be a factor here too - I don't want to buy new 15" tires to find out. Appearance is another plus w/16's, and we wanted to keep the stock wheels and tires for winter. I do not want to drive my new chrome wheels in the salt. My next car will probably be an ES300 - or, if they do the job right, the redesigned Avalon and I would buy it with standard wheels, then put these on it. That would also be the case if I bought one with a few miles on it like this one. Rental units usually have the basic stuff. If I buy tires at SAMS, the switch back and forth is free. I feel that longer term, this reduces my outlay, rather than paying up for new wheels each time. I've always felt that if I made my cars what I want them to be, I keep them longer too.

I guess I don't understand the last part of this: "Do you realize that putting these differenct tire combinations on, is a recurring expense both in initial outlay for the bigger wheels and tires as well as a decrease in longevity with a larger tire???"
If the diameter and revs per mile are the same, and the tires are wider and have more rubber, why wouldn't they last longer? Yes, they may be a bit pricier and that make it a wash. This assumes the same wear/mileage rating of course.

I hope that explains my thinking.

55396 · June 2004

I'm anxiously awaiting the results on the KYB installation. Please report bach soon when you get them on. I looked up the front strut. Does this sound about right on price?

Code: 334245
List Price: $137.21
Your Price: $78.00 Save: 43%
Shipping Weight: 13.00 pounds

Anyone have the price for the Tokico's?

gerry100 · June 2004

It may be a while before I can report results, as I've got to sell the program to the lease company.

To help my case, the Toyota dealer quoted me $1200plus to replace my struts with the original junk.

Approx $80 sounds right, from the websites I've checked.

abfisch · June 2004

Gerry100:

I put my TokicoHPs on about 2.5 years now, so I cannot remember exactly. I think I got the set of four for about $400, and about 3 hours of labor, then $70 for the 4 wheel alignment. Labor is about $70/hr where I am, but it may vary depending on location. Sounds like alot of money, but I had to do it, as I tend to keep vehicles for a very long time and do extensive highway driving.

I hope you get the same satisfaction as I with them. There are other smaller, less costly modifications but this is really the best and the biggest change you will find for this vehicle.

It does not surprise me the price that Toyota charges for replacements on their OEM part. The $80/piece for the KYB struts seem about right, as they are a little lower priced than the TokicoHPs. They are struts and not shocks both in the front and the rear so these tend to be more money to begin with.

abfisch

miss66 · June 2004

I am considering the purchase of an '04 XLS Avalon. My question regards the suitability of leather vs. fabric seats.I wonder if leather is the way to go if I plan to keep the car for at least 10 years. Does leather require maintenance? Anyone have any idea as to the life span of heated seats? Are they expensive to service should they fail? I like the fabric because its cool in the summer,warm in the winter. I just wonder if this is a poor choice for this car.I would appreciate any input on this or any other suggestions regarding options. I'm not really sure which items I should consider.

fndlyfmrflyr · June 2004

My Avalon is nearly 9 years old. The standard leather seats have held up well with the normal small amount of surface cracks mostly on the driver seat bottom. Have had the driver seat bottom and back re stained once about three years ago because a spot about the size of a quarter became discolored on the bottom and the color on the seat back had rubbed off on the outer edge. Cost was about $60 and it still looks good.

I prefer cloth seats, but have found the Avalon seats to not be a problem even during 100 degree plus days.

The back seat looks and feel new. It has been used a lot, especially during the last year. The passenger front seat shows virtually no wear.

Cleaning is easy. I use a a leather cleaner every now and then and a couple of times a year I use a conditioner. Sometimes I use a combination product.

I find leather tends to scratch if a pet has sharp nails (the dog does not ride in the Avalon).

Have had leather in the last four cars. Before that all of my cars had cloth seats, except for the Avalon. In the long run my cloth seats have stayed looking good/like new longer than the leather seats, but I haven't worn out a leather seat.

Plan on a little more maintenance compared to cloth to keep leather looking clean and feeling new. It doesn't take long and doesn't cost much

fndlyfmrflyr · June 2004

Our Avalon, until two years ago, was our primary family and trip vehicle. A little over a year ago our new driver became the main driver of the Avalon. It has become a teen hauler. The teen friend that is 6'7" has loads of room.

Today I drove our 96 for the first time in about six months. Felt like I was sitting in a hole (very low) compared to my other cars, but it was easy to get in and out. I'm still impressed with how quiet it is and how smooooothly the car operates. Very pleasant to drive. Now I remember why we liked it so much. Not fun, not entertaining, but so relaxing to drive. After today's drive I'll put the next generation Avalon high on my list of possibilities for my next car.

fin · June 2004

Our '99 XL leather front seats showed a little wear after 4 years, but nothing really bad. A little discoloration maybe, here and there on the edges, but no major problems. Rear seat was like new. It was never cleaned or treated, just washed lightly every now and then. Leather is always big help on resale value if that matters.

The '03 XL we bought has the new "perforated" leather and it is much better than the solid in the Georgia/Florida summer heat. Not offered on XLS in '03. Maybe now. This may be a nice compromise if available.

Can't help on cloth interior as we have not owned a car that came with one in probably 15 years or more. And never had the heated seats either.

Avalon is a great car for the money. Not perfect, but very good. Find one you like and enjoy it.

miss66 · June 2004

Thanks for all the input about the leather seats.
I plan to ask about the perforated seats.
Also, I assumed that you could use regular gas in the avalon. I just read a message that indicated that the manual says for max performance use 91 octane. Also, again from this site I found out about after market sites. I found avalon wheel locks and floor mats at discounted prices. Is it wiser to get these things, especially the wheel locks from the dealer?

fndlyfmrflyr · June 2004

I recently ran a test in one of my premium recommended cars (not the Avalon) to find out how much difference in performance and mpg there was between regular and premium gasoline.

The engine did not ping/knock on regular. Below 60 mph the car 'felt' the like it had the same acceleration. At freeway speeds it felt a tiny bit less responsive.

I ran regular for several tanks (premium had been used up to this time) and did an acceleration test using a stop watch (actually several).

Results: Mpg dropped by a little more than 8% using regular, slightly more than the savings using regular vs. premium. Acceleration, while it felt the same was actually slower from 0-60 by about .35 seconds. In short, the car ran fine on regular, but cost less per mile, based on nearly $2.50 per gallon around here, to operate on premium, and performance was better with premium too.

On my 96 Avalon I have notice better trip mpg using premium and the car felt like acceleration was a bit better on premium too. I didn't do any stop watch testing or drive enough tanks in a row on premium to be sure how much better the average mpg might be using premium instead of regular. It would be no surprize if the results were similar to my other car.

abfisch · June 2004

55396:

I understand what you are saying, and yes, if the overall tire diameter is the same, it would seem that the similar tires would wear the same, but that is not the case real world. Going to a lower series tire obviously adds cost as your have to increase the diameter. To doucment my point, about wear, go to a LEXUS dealership and pull one of the LS 430 catalogs, look in the section on options as they have a sports suspension now with a tire upgrade in size. In Tinny, tiny print, it reads something to the effect that you should not expect much more than 20K from the larger tires. Whether it is from the different compound, over width, different composition of the rubber, it is a mout point, as increasing the dimaeter (plus one sizing) will increase intial cost and most likely increase the rate of wear. To further expound, plus one sizing comparisons CR did an article to compare plus one, plus two, and plus three and its effects on multiple areas in their usual decision type matrix. The BOTTOM LINE is that most people, should NEVER change the tire size more than plus one, as the effects on ride, hydroplanning, wet cornering are reduced drastically with a little increase in performance, traction, dry cornering, dry braking, etc. They did not even take into account a derease in longevity but did mention the intial expense. To go further with my point, you start to put a tire that handles better on a suspension that is NOT up to the same performance level as the tire. Take for example the big SUV's you see with 21" rims and 35 series tires, just plain ridiculous and in fact dangerous. The tire react way before the structure of the car ever could. Additonally, who says that lower profile tires as actually Better LOOKING???? Who makes those judgements that it looks better???? Why???? Because you see more rima and less tire. You are being SOLD, at least partially in my opinion by the auto industry. This is all IMO, so you can do whatever you want and spend your $$$ however you want.

But.... a seasoned automotive enthusiast that has worked on vehicles would tell you differenet. Let the suspension do the work, not just the tires. The tires are the last thing I modified for my 02 Avy, when I wanted to have a more highway worthy car. I have both 205/65 H 15 (New Falken Ziex 512's ) as well as 215/55 H 16 as well as Winter tires on standard rims, 205/65 H 15. Depending on the driving conditions that year, depends alot on which size I prefer, but going 5 hours a clip from West Point, NY to Ft. Drum, NY, I am running the Falken 205/65 H15. Realize that my car has TokicoHPs struts, Energy suspension PU bushings for the sway bars and the lower front suspension arms and the car carries some extra weight from my stuff in the trunk and the trailer hitch.

In any case, let us know how you do, the decision you made and how the car functions for your application.

Good luck.

"Feed the fourm"

abfisch

jscott13 · June 2004

I have read on various message boards about LANGKA paint chip repair. Has anyone actually used this product? Does it work? How good does the end-product look?

Thanks.
Jon

fndlyfmrflyr · June 2004

I've tried Langka a number of times. One of my cars is quite chip prone. I've tried Langka on three cars, MDX, PT GT, and Avalon. The results have been mixed.

On the Cruiser Langka, every time, removed not only the 'blobs' but all of the paint in the chips too.

It seems to work better on my MDX with Langka removing the 'blob' but leaving paint in the chip - as long as the chip is a deep one. The problem has been that the paint that is left in the chip is dull and needs to be polished to bring back the shine.

On the Avalon I found the same problem as with using Langka on the Cruiser. No matter how careful I was Langka always removed all of the paint from the chip. My Avalon is pearl white and the factory touch-up paint is very thin. It takes a lot of coats to get coverage with the touch-up. In addition, I found that is possible to damage the existing OE paint with Langka. I now have a small area on my Avalon hood that looks like the paint melted. This is an area around where I tried to use touch-up and then get rid of the 'blob' using Langka. I suspect I used too much pressure and damaged the paint. It was the first time I tried using Langka. It hasn't happened again.

I contacted the manufacturer directly and found they (Larry) was very good. Several suggestions were given that, while they still didn't make Langka a 'blob' flatener, did make Langka a useful item to have. I've tried to get Langka to do what Langka says it will do and have not met with any success on two of my cars. I followed all of the suggestions, including waiting longer to use Langka, diluting Langka, and using virtually no pressure at all.

Apparently the depth of the chip is very important. Not deep enough and Langka takes away all of the touch-up. I also have the impression that Langka performance also depends on the make up of the touch-up paint. It works better on one of my cars than the other two,

I've found I like having Langka around because it will completely remove a sloppy touch-up and therefore make it easy to redo.

I noticed my Acura dealer now sells a 'Blob' flatening product too (not Langka). It comes with a polish to shine the flatened touch-up and is supposed to be used within 15 minutes of applying the touch-up paint, while Langka prefers more drying time.

jscott13 · June 2004

Thanks for the reply. I take it that the product is useful if the chip is deep enough or to correct a bad touch up.

I have used a toothpick for most repairs and tried to fill the very small chip to a certain point and then wax the car until the small indentation more or less disappears. Large paint chips are another matter. I have not found anything that smooths out the chip without otherwise causing some damage to the paint around it. Is Langka basically a polish of some sort?

BTW Griot's makes great polishes and waxes, the best I have found. Even if the paint is slightly damaged, using one of their three polishes and then their wax restores the paint to perfection.

fndlyfmrflyr · June 2004

Langka is not a polish. It leaves the new paint dull.

mcclearyfl · June 2004

There have been a few posts about gas mileage, and a two-day round trip to Canada gave me the opportunity to do some measurements. Ours is a 2003 XLS, loaded, and was carrying a driver, passenger and about 100 lb of luggage in the trunk. We did not use the radio, so there was no antenna drag. Airconditioning was running all the time. Tires were a pound above standard pressure. The car has 10K on it, and was recently serviced, so the motor should be at an almost ideal state of tune. We used exclusively premium gas, and filled the tank each time to the absolute top of the filler pipe.

There were three segments to our journey. #1 was a fast, 450 mile stretch, typically at speeds between 75 and 80. The terrain was essentially flat. #2 was a 275 mile mixture of county roads, interstate and a small amount of city driving. #3 was the same as #1 but at a slightly slower pace, about 70-75 mph.

#1  fast interstate driving 26.3 mpg
#2 - mixed rural driving 25.7 mpg
#3 - moderate interstate speed 28.5 mpg
EPA Highway estimate 29.0 mpg

We didnt buy the Avalon for its economy, but it appears to come close to EPA standards. Our Saab 9-3 4-cylinder turbo typically returns 30 mph, and our former Buick Regal 3.4L supercharged model (heavier and more powerful) never returned less than 29. So the Avalon is reasonably acceptable in terms of gas consumption. On the plus side, we thoroughly enjoy its smoothness, visibility, comfort and silence. It is a joy to drive, lacking only a few extra horsepower that would be so useful on the ragged edge.

bwia · June 2004

Today at New Englands largest Toyota Dealership (also the worlds #2 Toyota dealership) I had a rather pleasant service experience. As I entered the waiting room I was greeted by an official greeter (a la Wal-Mart) who offered to brew me a fresh cup of coffee or chocolate.

While I waited she offered me freshly made popcorn and engaged in light hearted conversation. She said Boch Toyota started the meet and greet program a couple of weeks ago and her job is to make customers feel comfortable while they wait for their automobiles. And would you believe her name is America? for which she has a canned response, that in her native country, America is a common girls name.

When I asked for a Prius brochure, she instead brought a salesman who told me I would have to wait eight months and they were getting mark-ups of $7,000 above sticker. If the Prius is so popular why doesnt Toyota increase production? BTW, the salesman said that they have a Prius on eBay which is now up to $31,500. I must say the Prius is a good looking car and definitely I will be looking at hybrid technology for my next purchase.

What does all this shi shi service cost? about $80 standard hourly labor rate.

gteach26 · June 2004

Interesting service experience. I'm not sure if my wife would like me sipping coffee and eating popcorn with America when I go in for oil changes though!

Also, on the Prius thing... I'll never understand people. How many years will these people have to drive their prius before the gas savings kick in?

These prius folks would be better off getting a good mileage mid-sized sedan, pocket the 7 grand and buy gas for the whole family for half a decade.

I guess making a "statement" is worth 7k to some folks.

petl · June 2004

I tended to agree with you. Then I started thinking... it's more than spending extra to get better gas mileage. It's about cleaner air and saving a non-renewable resource (or at least making it last longer). We may not see it in the foreseeable future. However, eventually we will run out. It (hybrids) may not be the answer, but I'm happy the attempt is being made to save on this resource that most North Americans take for granted. It's more than a statement.

gteach26 · June 2004

...but not at that price premium. I'll gladly be a "late adopter" and buy a hybrid once the hysteria wears off and it becomes more mainstream.

It does seem like hybrids are the way of the future. Can you imagine how nice it would be to step outside and not see smoggy haze surrounding our cities? Next we need to get our factories, energy suppliers, and trucking companies to keep nipping away at the pollution dilemma.

Okay, I don't want to hijack the Avalon thread with hybrid talk -- BUT since Toyota seems to be an aggressive backer of this technology, let's hope the Avalon gets a hybrid engine soon.

qualitynut · June 2004

Anyone know if this feature is on the car? It seems like I hear a pump (barely) run soon after starting the car. My 99 Aurora had it, nice feature.

55396 · July 2004

I've always hated the way a touch up looked. Either a bump or a depression, usually with some touch up on the surrounding paint. This time, I decided to experiment. I slightly overfilled the chip and let it dry and cure out. Then I went back with a razor blade and, being carefil that the angle wouldn't cut too deep, trimmed off the excess. I then gently sanded just the touched up spot with 1500 grit (2000 would be better yet)wet or dry paper and water to finish leveling the paint. I followed this with a polisher, although polishing compound applied by hand should work just fine too. Looks great. The key to getting the spot to shine is to make sure the paint has cured out first.

seabush · July 2004

I'm looking to purchase a new vehicle. I've compared the Avalon XLS to the Infiniti I35. Both seem to be pretty equal in terms of features. Infiniti is offering some incentives right now that makes purchasing that vehicle more attractive than the Avalon. However, I'm still torn about making a decision to buy that vehicle. I'm curious to know whether anyone hear evaluated both cars and what made you decide to purchase the Avalon over the Infiniti.

fin · July 2004

To Seabush:

Have made this comparison frequently. Here is some of what I have found thru the years:

Avalon - is a much softer ride with very large comfortable bucket seats in front. The rear seat is a cave compared to the I-35. The trunk is also larger. Current year Avalon visibility is better in most directions. The XL is probably less expensive, the XLS could cost a little more, than the I-35.

Infinity I35 - is a more powerful car that corners, brakes and rides quite different from Avalon. No nose dives when brakes are applied at high speed, flat corners in the mountains, etc. The warranty is longer and better. The service department is better (probably). Name prestige, if that means anything. Resale value, maybe.

Even - Reliability. Gas mileage, but Avy does have a slight edge.

Avalon buyers are probably a little older than Infinity I35 buyers. We enjoy the size/ride and do not care about performance.

And - Drive the Infinity and watch for "torque steer" on hard acceleration as mentioned in several other posts on Edmunds. Also, read about the nexgen Avalon, due as an '05 or maybe '06. If you can wait, it might be worth it.

You should get several posts in reply. Hope this gets you started.... :-)

pmcb48 · July 2004

Buying an Infiniti wouldn't be a mistake, per say, but it's basically a cosmetically fancier version of the Maxima, like Chrysler van is to a Dodge van, whereas Avalon is a car with more differences than the equivalent Camry, including bigger rear seat room, and standard V6, and a better value than the low-end Lexus for all but the most finicky. I say this having owned a 1993 LS400 and a Maxima for the last nine years. I-135 has the bigger "Maxima" engine, but next generation Avalon will have similar-sized engine if you can wait. They'll hold your hand better at the Infiniti dealership, as per above post, but you'll pay for it. Even the Infiniti G35, the next model up, I think is not worth going to over the Avalon (particularly the next generation one) unless sporty performance over comfort and room is your first priority.

jscott13 · July 2004

I have never tried using a razor to cut down the chip before sanding. I did a similar repair to one of my cars and discovered to my dismay that I had sanded too much in one spot, leaving a slight depression. ... Polish and waxing should bring back the shine on any car surface.

gerry100 · July 2004

Had the KYBs installed today at a cost of approx $700 plus tax.( including the necessary alignment).

Very positive difference in the way the car drives. Similiar to what I've read on other posts.

Ride is slightly firmer than when car was new,with vast improvements in turn in,body roll and nose dive during braking. Much easier to balance in a corner. Taking first long trip this weekend, I'm sure tracking and overall cruising comfort will be much better.

Formerly a used Japanese Buickm now a Japanese Cadillac. Not a bad thing at all.

abfisch · July 2004

gerry100:

I am pumped!!!!! Never thought you'd do it as most are too skidish. Glad to here they make the ride much more "controllable" without harshness. If that still is not enough, Energy Suspension PU bushings for the sway bars ONLY, both front and rear, will very nicely change the cornering prowess (read: flat) with just a tiny bit more of vibration but nothing untolerable. The result is very noticeable. The PU bushing are relatively inexpensive as compared to the shocks, no more than $50 and you can actually put them on in your driveway with a few good tools.

Had to change my OEM tires, and bought same size Falken Ziex 512's. Nice tread design, very little noise, large circumferential groove down center. Vastly better than OEM, and Avalon runs very good at sustained speeds orf 75-80MPH, with a beautiful blend of ride comfort still with much more control. The suspension is now, too good for the amount of horsepower, as I could use about 30-50HP more, but I would rather have it this way than an incompetent suspensionfor sustained highway driving.

Glad to here things worked out with the struts. It really is a weak point to an otherwise very good car. The other weak point is the brake parts. You'll see.

"Feed the forum"

abfisch

fndlyfmrflyr · July 2004

Thanks for the Falken tire comment. About to give the 512s a try on a different car. Hadn't thought about them for the Avalon. I had been leaning towards Bridgestone RE 950 or Turanza LS-H for the Avalon. Nice to know the Falkens are good on the Avalon.

abfisch · July 2004

fndyfmorflyr:

Let me give you a little more info, why I bought theses for my 02 Avy to give you another point of view. Maybe this can help you make a better educated decision for your own needs.

I obviously have modified the suspension some in my car, and am between US Army moves from West Point, NY and Ft. Drum, NY, upstate. The roads are in terrible repair down there, and even though I have 215/55 R 16 on different rims, the OEM tires that came with the car, an XL, are 205/65 R 15's which give me a much better ride, since the suspension is tauter, the roads are terrible and I wanted to use up what I paid for in the first place. I am a little of a tighwad and paid for my car cash.

The mechanic who I had put the Energy Suspension PU bushings in the front lower suspension arms (I did the sway bars), told me my tires were pretty used up, the OEM ones. I said I know, but I wanted to complete all suspension work and see when I have to move up North, where the roads are better. The mechanic said to me, something I will not forget. He said, no matter what tire you put on the car, after 25-30K miles, it is a used tire, no matter Michelin, Gooyear, Yokohama, etc. The inside belts, etc and worn, even though the tread may have some life left, which was the case with these.

CR did an article within the last year, using a Honda Accord and BMW 5 series, testing multiple tires, same size, and using their typically good decision matrix, objectively testing as much as possible.

I was going to put on the Bridgestone 950's or the new BF Goodrich Traction T/A's I think they were called that Nomad56 recommended. They got a great review and the Bridgestone 950's and the Turanza's were excellent, top of the list. I went to the Army base to see what price for the 950's and they were going to cost about $95/each for the 15" including mounting and balancing and NO TAX cause it is a military base.

Well, the Falken's Ziex 512, I got for $51 including shipping off the net, delievered in two days to my door, and I got them mounted and balanced for $7.95, so out the door, $59 each wheel, NO TAX. I could with the amount of difference and leaving it in the bank buy two sets and they run very well. Now, I don't know how they will be in 25-30K miles, but I don't care because at that price, I buy a new set no questions asked.

My OEM tires were squeeling around corners, without the car leaning or moving at all, a tell tale sign they are not what they used to be. Completely different now, although a sports driving person, would probably appreciate a 55 series tire better, at the expense of ride comfort and an increase change of damaging a rim.

Hope this helps.

"Feed the forum"

abfisch

fndlyfmrflyr · July 2004

I like the idea of not over spending for tires too. Falken is part of Sumitomo, known for quiet good riding tires at an inviting price. The Falkens will be tried first on our Cruiser. Looking forward to the quiet compared to the Goodyear RSA OE tires.

gerry100 · July 2004

Did about 500miles on the new struts this weekend and was not disapointed. On the highway they track beautifully and the car "planes out" perfectly at speed - no more gentle oscillations or following the ruts.
The car is transformed ( maybe they use those OE shocks to avoid eating into Lexus sales)

Improvement was so great that I might even consider spending my own money on it - and that's saying a lot.

There is a slight increase in harshness, but the improved stability results in a much less fatiguing drive. Some think that softer is by definition more comfortable when in reality your body is constantly adjusting to the undulations - especilaly the eyes and neck muscles. Try standing around doing nothing on even a large sailboat for a day and see how tired you are.

qualitynut · July 2004

Light from both headlights seem to be splotchy instead of uniformly spread out. Light from driver side seems to be too low but I don't see any adjustment screws like on other cars. Anyone know how to adjust? Hate to take it to the dealer since no other problems.

Thank-you in advance.

mcclearyfl · July 2004

Our '03 Avalon XLS came from the factory with one headlight assembly incorrectly installed. The first comment I got from the service department was that the assembly is "not adjustable". Nonsense, of course, and it was fixed under warranty in about 5 minutes. Unless your dealer is inconveniently located, I suggest you take it in.

Toyota Avalon 2004 and earlier

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