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Comments
Whether the larger GS engine that is under developement being one of these engines is to be seen.
as for bimmer lovers, to each his, or her, own.
i think bmw's are good cars, just don't own one.
and i got nothing against the is 300 either, just don't own one.
The Celica GTS motor was developed by Toyota with a lot of help from Yamaha. In fact, the cylinder heads (that enabled the high hp) were totally Yamaha designed and Toyota had no role in it.
Later...AH
American buyers drove that market. The Euros liked the big I-6s for economy reasons. In Europe the hot 330 is the 330d. A diesel.
I have a strong preference for Japanese cars, though I did also gaze at the German vehicles.
Fortunately, I will be able to purchase two vehicles in the next 4-5 years. One will probably be a midsize SUV or some type of hybrid ( no minivan ever!!) needed for a growing family that likes to road trip and explore. The other will be a car in the above category. Here are my impressions and questions.
The IS300 is an impressive vehicle. I have liked it since it's arrival and have test driven it once. After closer inspection at the show I see where some of the complaints about the interior come from. The dash plastic is somewhat hard. The inside door liners are cloth. Shouldn't they at least be high quality vinyl? Otherwise I really like the layout and interior design. It is exciting, different from the classy and elegant, but somewhat boring layout in the European vehicles.
The exterior is aggressive and dynamic in my opinion. The car looks ready to move. Personally I do not see where the comparisons to Corolla's and Civic's come from. My main issue is a moderate lack of power. I asked the Lexus rep about factory turbocharging or when a redesign is slated for and she had no idea. This was not a surprise. Does anyone out there have any information or opinion's on this.
The IS would probably be my first choice if I were buying soon, though with some more power.
I also saw the Infinity G35, though interior access was not allowed. I was disapointed by its exterior. It is not bad looking, but neither is it aggressive or dynamic appearing. In my opinion it looks similar to the Altima in appearance. Hopefully it will be as fun and dynamic to drive as promised. It does have a lot of power and torque but how does it corner and handle? I would consider this car, but I guess I like a slightly edgier design. Just my opinion.
I hear you on the exterior. My wife just bought a SportCross, and I've come a long way on my feelings about how the IS looks. First of all, I don't think I've seen many pictures that do the car justice. For me anyway, it just has this aura when seen in person that doesn't come across in a photo. I can see how folks might dismiss the looks if they haven't had an up-close-and-personal look at the car.
I also think the looks grow on you. When I first saw it in the showroom I wasn't bowled over. It looked to me like a somewhat bland, if angular, small car. But I think a lot of the look is in the subleties of the design. "Between the lines" of the car, as it were. I now really, really like how the car looks, especially the SportCross, which IMHO has the edge over the sedan.
At any rate, it's a really beautiful car, and a blast to drive (when my wife lets me!).
The previous generation MB S-class (S320) - sold in the US - had a six cylinder engine. Also, the S-class is sold in other regions of the world with 6-cylinder engines (current generation). The E-classes are sold with 4-cylinder engines in other world markets. Just a heads-up.
Later...AH
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
Didn't BMW used to have a 3.0L V-8? Old 530 or 730? Or was it 3.5L V-8? And didn't they used to have a 4.0L V-8 in the previous 5 Series? But they had to move up due to market and buyer considerations. Went to current 4.4L V-8. M5 is about 4.9L V-8. New 7 Series uses 4.5L V-8 and so likely will the next 545i.
Don't get me wrong, I think a wonder 3.8L, 4.0L or 4.2L I-6 with the latest in engine technology would work fine in base 7 Series or S Class. But don't ever put a V-6 in a premium sedan!!! (Or super sports car, as Acura NSX sales drought proves.)
.........
Ahem.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
That leaves Riez and me to talk about inline 6's vs. V-6's and other pertinent stuff.
cinco@hiwaay.net
http://www.powerhouseracing.com
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2025 Camry SE AWD
with 10k miles for 20grand...imagine what it will cost at 60k miles...
Still loving mine.
~Linda
The resale value edge goes to the Bimmers, too.
In other words, the IS300 hasn't been the market hit Toyota was hoping for.
3 BMW 3-Series 8,520 9,997 97,332 89,655
BMW Sold 97,332 variants of its BMW 3 series family during 2001. BMW's 3 series sales were 89,655 at the end of 2000. BMW managed to sell 7,677 units more during 2001.
On the other hand, Lexus sold during 2001 22,486 new IS300's (Sales of the Sportcross are tossed into this total). It only sold 1,738 cars during December 2001. During December 2000 (When probably neither the 5-speed or wagon models were yet available), Lexus sold 2,147 cars, so actually sales were down this past year during the same period, while BMW's went up.
15,540 new IS300 found a new home during 2000.
So in despite of the 5-speed availability and the Sportcross model, sales increases were modest during 2001 for the IS300. It goes to show that this car's problems go beyond a wagon and a stick shift. The styling and the chintzy interior materials are really affecting the standing of this car in its market segment.
Source data: www.autosite.com
IMO part of the problem for Lexus with this vehicle is it attracts a different type of client than they're used to dealing with. I picture most Lexus shoppers as people who have ample resources/disposable income and want a luxurious, reliable car with outstanding customer service. However for the IS300, I think most potential buyers are at the upper limits of their car budgets. As a result, their priorities are a little different when car shopping.
To illustrate I'll use my experience with Lexus when we were comparing vehicles (IS300, TL-S, A4, Passat, Maxima, Accord, Camry, LS). All the vehicles we test drove had their pluses and minuses, and in the end our choice boiled down to which vehicle was a better value for us. As financial cost was a major factor, we'd inquire as to a ballpark figure for what each vehicle was currently selling for. A couple of the dealers (Acura, Nissan) had "no haggle" pricing so we knew exactly what the vehicle would cost out the door. From others we got a good sense of about how much we could expect to pay. But with the local Lexus dealer we were rebuffed every time we asked the question. The salesperson kept saying how they didn't want to discuss pricing until we were sure it was the right car for us, and we kept saying that price was going to play a big part in our decision. We finally came to the conclusion that while we liked the IS300 (manual, not the auto) the most of the vehicles we were looking at, if we couldn't get it for a certain amount of money we'd go with our second choice (TL-S). We planned on going in and negotiating on Monday, December 24th as my wife and I had the day off from work, but it turned out the local dealership was closed. Since my wife wasn't particularly impressed with the salesperson we'd been dealing with we drove 80 miles to next closest dealer to see what they had on the lot. They had 6 IS 300 sedans and 5 wagons, although only one of the sedans was a stick shift (no LSD on it either). After spending a considerable amount of time looking at the different colors in the sunlight outside, we headed into the dealership to possibly make a deal. After waiting in the middle of the showroom floor for 10 minutes without anyone approaching us, I finally managed to catch the eye of one of the people just standing around b.s.ing (we figured they weren't salespeople because they didn't make any moves to see what we were shopping for). Turns out the guy was a salesman and he asked us what we were looking for. We explained we were very interested in a manual IS300 and wanted to talk price and availability. We went into his office and in the 30 minutes we were in there not once did he even mention a figure, just kept saying how difficult it was to come by a manual configured how we wanted. He did say we could order one from the factory but that would take some time (i.e. 4 months) and he'd rather check around with other dealers to see if he could locate one after X-Mas. He took our number and said he'd be in touch. My wife and I walked out of the dealership wondering if Lexus actually sold cars or just had pretty showrooms so people could waste hours just hanging out.
I ended up going back to the "local dealer" (30 miles from our house) the day after X-Mas to give them the opportunity to sell me a car. After an initial discussion in which they informed me only 7 manual vehicles were allocated for in January for the entire region (none with heated seats that my wife wanted, all with spoilers we didn't want), I told them I'd be willing to wait for a factory order to get one with the features we wanted. Then began a two hour negotiation over price that ended up with me talking directly with the sales manager for the last half hour.
Funny thing was I was offering to pay cash with no trade-in, so I figured it would take all of 15 minutes to do the deal. I had a spreadsheet on my laptop that listed both invoice and MSRP and would automatically update totals plus a "negotiating price" based upon a user input dealer mark-up and what options were selected. And all this occurred was Lexus was running a national campaign highlighting December as a "sales event".
Bottom line, the reason Lexus isn't selling more IS 300s is they aren't prepared to move them IMHO. Outside of southern California there are not enough Lexus dealers to spur any competition. For those individuals lucky enough to live with-in driving distance of Longo Lexus in LA, count yourself blessed (I'd even priced a one way ticket on Southwest Airlines with the thought of driving an IS300 back from California).
Long rant but really looking forward to the car.
KAM
Well, I ordered the car from my local dealer despite the resistance and never drove any LS. I had to buy "off the numbers". Now this is in San Diego and the largest LM dealer in California. They found my car at an LA dealer. It had been sitting in his storage lot for 4 months. I have been happy with the car except for a lack of power. But the point is that Lexus dealers aren't used to the IS300 age group and their needs. If you visit the dedicated web sites for the IS300, you can see that the emphasis is on performance, and this is a performance level much higher than the younger and less well-heeled Civic/Accord/Prelude/Eclipse boy-racer group who don't have a clue to true RWD potential. Besides the dealer bias, the price/value ratio perceived by many potential buyers is a problem. They constantly complain about interior quality and space. This has further limited the market and I think to the better, for the Manual performance buyer. I think many automatic buyers look at the IS300 as the starter, or less expensive Lexus and then when seeing it, get bounced into the ES300. The dealers use it as a bait and switch car for the uninformed. "Don't you want a real Lexus?" is implied. This is happening with Lincoln, and I would love to be a fly on the wall at a Cadillac dealership when Manual CTS buyers try to climb the wall to get their cars or even find one on the lot to test drive. The Caddy boys have had time to get "well-hardened". They probably already call it the next Cimmaron or Catera.
Congratulations on being successful, enduring the "Manual Experience". The Manual IS300 would be my choice. And unlike my LS, you can get an LSD. That is a serious deficiency in the LS Manual. It's too bad Lexus won't send you a Purple Heart for your combat wounds.
With the CTS and LS, they just bought "off the shelf" Gertrags and designed the drivetrains around this compromise. In the case of the IS300, the W55 was the first Toyota RWD manual tranny designed from the ground up since the W58 in the non-turbo Supra and Cressida. Today, only the Japanese have the guts and talent to do in-house manual transmissions. Definitely a lost art for American manufacturers, who don't have a competent manual engineer left in their employ. Yes, Lexus and now Infinity are doing the Auto first, Manual later routine. But I really feel that the IS300 will eventually have a larger % of manual sales than Lincoln and Caddy combined, eventually reaching the 15% manual penetration for BMW in North America. Interestingly, BMW installs GM autos made in France. Oddly,
Lexus' Manual competition will come from Infiniti in the form of the G35 sometime late in this year.
260hp, 260 ft lbs of torque and a rumored six-speed Manual from the 350Z. Just vaporware for now, but pricing starts in the 27k range. Will the IS300 get upgraded, lowered in price, or both? The G35 may whip all our tails.
While a lot of people seem to find the IS300 interior lacking, my wife and I like it. It is easy to locate the switchgear, has simple controls (no nav for us) and provides a good driving position for each of us (she's 5'3", I'm 6'2"). I even had plenty of head room with the sunroof, whereas in a lot of other vehicles my head brushes against the headliner. Maybe I'd feel different if the main reason I was buying a car was to use as an office or phone booth for my cell phone. I do find the chronograph dials a little busy, and I may have a few more comments once we take delivery.
BTW I hope Lincoln either improves the V6/manual offering in the LS or offers a V8/manual option. The car had very good handling and tight steering, a combination I don't normally associate with Ford products. One of the main drawbacks on the vehicle for us was my wife's inability to find a comfortable seating position with respect to the pedals. Maybe if they offered adjustable pedals she would have felt differently, but she had to have the seat so far forward (she's got short legs) the airbag would have probably done more harm than good in a frontal crash.
Keep up the crusade on manual transmissions and gearing. So far the best we've found was in the Acura RSX, although I doubt it can handle a lot of torque. More transmission engineers should drive that vehicle to get a benchmark for their work. Thought of the day - if BMW buys GM auto transmissions, maybe GM could return the favor by purchasing a few BMW manuals.
KAM
My wife and I were 25, in jeans and t-shirts when we went looking for our IS, and 4 out of 5 dealerships were happy to greet us and give us the time we needed. One, however, was less than enthusastic. I could make a claim based on that one dealership that all are stuffy and unwelcoming, but that simply isn't the case.
They wanted our money just as much as the Acura, Volvo, and Audi dealerships we visited, regardless if we're not purchasing something in their 60K lineup.
The W55 in your IS300 is a little different but it also turns at high rpm in fifth. For some reason, Toyota engineers caught the same disease as the Getrag engineers. While the old Supra W58 had a .73:1 overdrive fifth, the W55 has an almost inconsequential .85:1 fifth along with an almost 3.8- rear ratio. As is Japanese and European practice, Auto and Manual rear ratios are different. The IS300 rear is not quite as deep
as the IS300 five speed auto rear ratio. So the auto is definitely more of a cruiser.
For the CTS, Caddy engineers told Getrag to build a rare overdrive five-speed with also a barely overdrive .82:1 fifth. With the CTS 3:73 rear, we are right back up to high rpms at cruise.
Let's see if the Nissan engineers re-instill the idea of a Manual tranny with decent overdrive ratios in the G35. There is great hope of this with the rumored use of the 350Z six-speed. I say this because the solution of all of the LS,IS300, and CTS and lower BMW manual model's high cruising rpm problems (wear,NVH and gas mileage woes) is the use of a six-speed tranny. The Getrag six-speed should have been the choice of LM, Lexus, and Caddy. The six-speed Getrag is standard with the M3,M5, and 540i-6. It has two overdrive ratios. 4th is slightly overdrive and sixth is a real overdrive (BMW traditionally keeps it's rear ratios conservative because it's engines offer up better low end torque). The Turbo Supras also used the Getrag six-speed. So why not the sixer? It's cost. The Getrag fiver is cheap compared to the six. Although extremely hard to find on the retail market, a new Getrag six-speed is between 4 to 5 big ones. Too expensive for the 30k cars we all love.
This could another factor why the Manual cars suffer in sales. Gearheads see the numbers and wonder why shift. The LS manual is slower than the V-8 auto. One rumored reason is that the five speed Getrag has a torque limitation that limits applications to V-6's. That's why the manuals are relegated to the "small engines" unless you have the BMW big bucks. So the Manual is back, just in a retarded state. Gone are the days when genuine big iron was rowed. I guess I should savor my memories of my 64 GTO with Tri-Power with it's 4.6 second 0-60 and Muncie 4 speed (of course, it got 10 mpg, couldn't stop or turn). Let's hope we return to the days when a Manual was always faster and gave better potential economy. Until then, we will see the manufacturers cry that no one is buying manuals so why make them. They can't see the forest thru the trees.
I think I see the solution for me, though. Save up my money, buy an automatic transmission shop, make a fortune on these computer-controlled units when they break down, and buy an M5. With 88% of Americans with auto tranny, there is a lot of AAMCO meat out there.
1st 4.23
2nd 2.51
3rd 1.67
4th 1.23
5th 1.00
6th 0.83
Final Drive: 2.81
Thus the overall in 1st is 11.886. Overall in 6th is 2.33. Overall spread, 1st thru 6th, is 5.10.
Here is the data for the 2002 540i 6-speed:
1st 4.23
2nd 2.53
3rd 1.67
4th 1.23
5th 1.00
6th 0.83
Final Drive: 2.81. Only 2nd gear changed.
Above data taken from the 1998 and 2002 5 Series BMW full-color brochures.
Mine turns over about 2,100 RPMs at 74 mph on interstate with cruise control, getting about 23.5-25.5 mpg.
One of the factors Lexus has going for it is the consistent ranking of their customer service as being tops in the industry. We were attempting to balance that with the limited number of dealers in the U.S., as we are in the military and tend to move around quite a bit. Case in point, prior to living in Texas we were in Montana (no Lexus dealers) and will be moving to Colorado Springs in June (2 dealers in state, both located around the Denver area). Hopefully the rest of our ownership experience will be positive as we plan to keep the car for 8 years or more.
stanny1 - I had a feeling the BMW manuals were Getrag units but I wasn't sure. I think Audi/VW units are sourced in house, but given the rubbery nature of the shifters they might want to think about outsourcing (although the placement of the transmission for front/all-wheel drive may have more to do with the vague action than anything else).
My Lincoln LS has that same feeling. But when I jacked up the LS to change the tranny fluid in the Getrag to synthetic, I was shocked. First, the Getrag was so small I thought some of it was in the bellhousing (none of it is). Second, it sits way far forward of the shifter. Third, it has an arm type linkage because of the distance and Fourth, the tranny takes only 1.1 quarts of gear lube! I'm a guy who had a W58 five speed in an 83 Cressida and it took 2.5 quarts of fluid and even with an aluminum case, had to weigh over 100 lbs. Today's trannys, at least the Getrags, are amazingly small. I bet the W55 IS 300 five speed is a lot smaller than the old W58 and that is one reason Toyota decided to build their first new RWD manual in a long time. The W58 simply was too large for the Lexus tranny tunnel. Probably too heavy as well. The W58 was used in all the non-turbo Supras and the early 90's Lexus Coupe (GS300?) however. The current IS300 straight six is a direct desendant from the 82 Supra powerplant, which was the first large DOHC six in the US for Toyota. This engine shamed the Datsun six with its single OHC and non-crossflow head of the same era. The Supra boys pioneered a lot of the current add-on equiptment for the IS. I miss my straight-six. It went to the junkyard with 160k, using no oil, and still reved to redline with no problem. Original water pump and head gasket for 17 years. Bulletproof. Oh, original clutch and the tranny had never been opened as well. Too bad some idiot hit it in 2000 and the body was totaled (a license plate ding on a 17 year old car will total it). I doubt you will have any major problems with the IS drivetrain.