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Check the sales numbers. Demand for the the IS300 has been declining since its intro. Despite the new manual and Sport Cross. It is the poorest selling car among its peers. The A4, C-Class, 3 Series, S-60, TL\CL all sell much better. Only the Saab 9-3, Catera and such do worse. That's why they are aggressive with the leases. You won't find many Is300's on dealer lots because the dealers don't want them. Check autosite.com for the latest sales numbers and see for yourself. BTW, the IS300 is a great car that deserves to sell better, but missed the bulk of the market with the interior style/materials and limited utility of the small trunk and no fold down seats, plus not handily beating the 3 series in performance. Shame
I am not dishing you but I don't understand why a car buyer should be concerned about sales numbers. I for one enjoy not seeing the car I am driving in every parking lot. I also don't understand why the interior is knocked. I enjoy the interior because it is different and that may be why some people are bothered by it. The only element a little out of place is the top of the dashboard. The rest of the materials inside aren't any better or worse than any other car in the segment.
I also don't think you can say the dealers don't want the cars. I am sure they would like to see them leaping off their lots but from what I have seen, the IS attracts a completely different type of customer that Lexus would never get without the IS. I know that because I am one of those people. I also know this because every time I have been in the dealership a younger man or couple have been looking at an IS. If anything slow sales mean great deals for buyers.
I have a SportX which gives you a hatchback and folding rear seats. I hear you about not having a folding back seat. All cars in this segment should have one. The Acura CL/TL and Infinity G35 don't have folding rear seats either.
One final thought, performance is more than 0-60 MPH. The IS does quite well in handling, braking, steering feel, and ride but isn't as fast in a striaght line as a 330. There are a number of $25K cars, like the WRX, that have better performance than a 330 if 0-60 MPH is all you look at. I think the IS provides a good balance of overall performance and creature features at a substantially lower price than a 330. Slow sales again mean better deals. One person's down side is another person's upside.
Maybe a lot of the current problem stems from people comparing the IS300 to other cars and noticing how (poorly) it comes off as an overall value and performer??? Notice the buzz about the G35? Seems like Infiniti might hit a home run. Great price. Great performance? Just wait till it gets a manual and the coupe version comes out. Will IS300 get a coupe? Convertible? Probably should have them over a station wagon.
Really, what does the IS300 get you at its price that you can't get for less (Cadillac CTS, Lincoln LS, G35, etc.) or similar (330i) price?
The G35 will not be less, and the 330 is not similar. Load up all the options to match the IS on the G35, and you're pushing mid to high 30's (depending on the Nav). We all know a 330i will bring you into the 40's. If you know where I can get one fully loaded for 35K, let me know.
I drove a G35 last weekend. Nice ride, handled well, but you could feel the size of the vehicle in comparison to a 3 series or IS300. The engine didn't provide the overwhelming "giddy up" I expected, and it was extremely loud under hard acceleration, which was required to get it to move in a hurry. My opinion is this will attract a slightly older driver where size is a concern and not so much performance. For instance, a couple in their late 40's or early 50's was in the process of buying one while I was at the dealership. This wouldn't be my pick for a drive though the mountains, that's for sure, but it would be my pick for long distance trips. In my mind, it really reminded me of the C320 in size and drive, which is good for Infiniti, and bad for Merc.
Interior was blah, which probably shows my age (26), because I think the IS has one of the most unique interiors on the market. The plastic argument is tired, and doesn't speak at all for the rest of the car's interior, which is less than lacking. One feature I really like on the G35 was the reclining rear seats. That's a nice touch, as well as the tilt steering where the console moved with the wheel as to not obstruct the view of the gauges. On the other hand, it only came with a 200 watt system (only 6 speakers and 1 sub)...and it sounded terrible. Don't forget, there's no LSD, less than performance tires come standard (55 sidewalls) and a traction control that you can't exactly turn off with the greatest of ease, if at all? I see a lot of hype, but can't wait to see slalom, skidpad and braking figures.
To answer your question, you're missing the fun factor, a decent stereo system, real performance tires, limited slip, a stick (even though it's coming) and I'll bank that almost all performace numbers except acceleration will not beat or match smaller cars in its class. I may be proven wrong, but it didn't feel like it from the seat of my pants (however unscientific they may be). The resaon I think the IS will continue to suffer still is mainstream America doesn't care what a car does through the slalom or on the skidpad. If sales stop altogether, I'll be more than happy to see less of them on the road, as long as the parts are available if I ever need them.
But if everyone is going to jump on the Nissan campaign where you're taught to believe HP and 0-60 is the end all be all (read: Altima), you should be more concerned with BMW, which is going to lose in that department as well as in size AND most significantly in price.
Some things the IS still has going for it are price, performance that rivals or beats the BMW (according to many editors), the Lexus quality/service/reliability and great looks (subjective, I know). But Infiniti is no slacker in reliability either - another strike for the Germans.
Finally got latest issue of Car & Driver in mail today. Their G35 automatic roared 0-60 mph in a mere 6.2 seconds. Top speed of 145 mph, governor limited. Boasts huge trunk and back seat.
C&D compares the G35 to IS300 in 5 areas. The G35 is less expensive than the IS300, accelerated much quicker, braked better, produced a higher skidpad g figure, and gets better EPA city mileage figure. So C&D scores it 5-0, G35 over IS300.
Actually, the IS300 was the most expensive of the 4 cars C&D compared figures to: 325i, G35, Cadillac CTS, and IS300. And the IS300 numbers were slowest acceleration both 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile, 2nd best braker, worst skidpad grip, and worst fuel economy. Maybe that is why sales are poor?
I can offer my reasons for just purchasing an IS300 3 days ago.
For me, value means a very well built, reliable car. So I am automatically biased towards cars from Japan. That means IS300, G35, and Acura TL.
The latter two are *big* cars, which is fine for some but I prefer something smaller. Admittedly, the interior of the IS300 is a tad more cramped than I would like.
There are many other reasons, not the least of which is out of all the cars I test drove (which was basically all of them in the class), None were more fun than the IS300 and the BMW. I dont fancy myself a BMW person so there you have it.
Most reviews I have read are similarly perplexed by the IS300. It seems like a non-competitor on paper, but when they drive it they dont want to give it up.
Maybe that initial specmanship hurdle knocks it off a lot of peoples lists. It probably also suffers from being radically different than what the typical Lexus shopper is looking at. The G35 may suffer from this some but at least its a big car.
The dash materials are much better for '02, BTW. The whole interior feels much nicer, albeit still very young-skewing (with chrome speaker covers added). I wish the center console was a bit cleaner but the rest is comparable to the class competitors (and nicer than some).
Finally, I cant believe the 325i scored better in acceleration times. Its a significantly slower car.
Especially about braking and skidpad. R/T's skidpad for the IS was .91 if I'm not mistaken, and braking was 113 ft. Of course, I've seen much worse in other reviews. What did C/D give it? I bet they gave the acceleration for the IS something ridiculous like 7.9 right? Acceleration is not so much a surprise. Did they mention anything about slalom? I've yet to get my copy of C/D.
Would you mind listing the marks here for each? I'm also wondering what options they're adding to each, or were they referring to the base models without options when calculating price?
Gas mileage is expectedly poor too, but it's funny that the G lists theirs as only one gallon better than the IS.
Also agree with Bob. You could offer me an even swap with the G35, and I wouldn't take it. Again, I'm probably a minority in that regard, and a reason sales are suffering as you mentioned. But they were also suffering before these others came out, and I think it's too early to tell how the new competitors are affecting the IS, which undoubtably is also suffering from a poor economy and 9/11. I think the reason lots are empty is poor estimations by Lexus, not the fact the dealers don't want them. That would be conterproductive to say the least.
Was just a road test of the G35. The comparison charts are the small bar charts at the bottom of the tech spec portion of the review. C&D is dying to include the G35 in a complete comparison test.
I have grown sort of scepticle about what the car mags say. The new car on the block is always the darling and we see a lot of advertising in the mags for the new car. Six months later, after the advertising campaigns end, the next new car comes along and the same mags will start having little complaints about the car they raved about before. Somehow it doesn't handle quite as well as before, or there are some issues with how it shifts, wind noise, or etc..
One of the C&D comparison mentioned above was done 2-3 months ago. The IS 5 speed was equipped with all season tires instead of the much stickier "sport package" tires which impacted some of the numbers. Most of the comments confirmed that the IS is still a good car and "performance" is good. With the IS price reductions in Jan02 the IS costs less than it did before.
I don't think you can really go wrong buying any of these cars in this segment they all have a lot of goodness in them. It will be interesting to see how the HP wars escalate next year. It would seem that BMW has the most to lose.
I remeber when the IS300 first came out, I got a piece of direct mail (read junk mail) from lexus encouraging me to take a test drive of the IS300. They compared the horsepower of the IS300 to I believe an Audi A4 (with the old 2.8L 190hp V6 which is fair), a BMW 328i (When the 330i was out already), & a Mercedes-Benz C280 (When the new C320 was already out). Now granted the piece was probably produced a month before I got it and the cars weren't technically out yet, but I found it to be a little sketchy. Like the Lexus marketing guys were saying "Let's get this mailing out to people before MB & BMW come out with their new & more powerful engines."
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I think bobbob911 and silverlex have got it right as to what is the important reason for an IS300 over a number of other cars, and that that reason may not influence a large number of even sports sedan buyers. It is the fun factor. The IS300 is more fun to drive when one is driving for fun, or at least noticing the driving. Comparing the IS300 to the A4, 330i and S60 T5 (the ones I have driven), the IS300 is just more fun - more nimble, responsive to steering input, more attuned to what the driver is doing. Now the 330i is great - maybe better - in these areas as well, but, seems to me, only at a more serious level. That is, you have to be going faster or driving more agressively in order to feel the performance. I don't think most people really are that aware of the fun factor or that it is that important to them, (especially - my bias here - those with automatic transmissions) so that styling, interior look and feel, ride, raw acceleration and skidpad numbers become more important. The IS300 certainly more than meets my minimum requirements in those areas - looks and performance - so then, for me, what's more fun is the key. The G35 is probably a great car, but I don't think any reviewers or people here have said it sure is fun to go out and chuck it around corners on the way to the convenience store. (But, of course, I am not planning to take my new IS300 (coming soon, I hope) on a cross country trip, either. So how you plan to use the car is a big part of a decision also. P.S. It's not just an age thing. I'm 54.
Agree on the fun factor. My wife is still having a total blast driving her SportCross. This is a car that is just always in a good mood, and it's very contagious to the driver.
For us, the fun-to-drive quotient, the utility of the hatchback form factor, the unique styling, the Nav, and the size were clinchers. Especially the size. My wife likes small cars, and the other makes/models being bandied about here would have been too large for her tastes.
Also add me to the camp that who likes the low sales figures, especially of the SportCross. I have yet to see another one on the road around here (we've seen a few sedans thought), and my wife is especially enjoying the double-takes the car provokes.
The SportCross makes a wonderful counterpoint to my new 02 ES300. The ES is great for the long trips, and the IS is perfect for banging around on the weekend.
Certainly concur if you are talking manual transmission and LSD. But if you're talkin' 'bout the automatic transmission, then there really ain't that much more fun than a ton of other automatic sport sedans. That was one big reason why so sad Lexus messed up and introduced it with only an automatic. (Other big selling point is its wonderfully smooth I-6 engine. It just needs more cubes and/or ponies.)
I test drove a 5spd yesterday with mixed emotions. While I loved driving it, I had 3 issues (if you can call them that). 1. The stick. It didn't feel as "solid" as other manual transmissions I've driven. Almost like it was going to break off when shifting. Does one get used to it after a while? Is it just an aquired taste??? 2. The spoiler is a "mandatory option" for the 5spd (nice oxymoron there). Is there any way of getting around this? Has anyone had success having Lexus swap trunk lids with a non-spoiler lid? Or, removing the spoiler and filling in the holes (although at that point I think I'd just keep it) 3. Chrome speaker covers???
Anyway, if anyone has any input on the first two I'd appreciate it.
I had my car on a racetrack a few weeks ago. At about 85% of the limit, the IS feels real good. When you push it towards the absolute limits the suspension is a little too soft, Vehicle Skid Control is too intrusive, and the automatic doesn't give you the gearing and control that a manual would. Off the racetrack the car on a day to day basis is nimble and always fun.
After spending a week with a Lincoln LS V8, I was amazed at how good it felt to get back in the SportX. The Lincoln isn't a bad car but it has a completely different feel to it. The IS just feels so much better connected to the driver. The Lincoln just felt like a bigger wider car and the steering feel wasn't as good. The V8 may be a little faster for a stoplight drag race but I would rather drive the IS everyday.
That's the first I've heard of that. Check around to make sure the dealer isn't gunning for a "mandatory" ripoff. It's possible he isn't kidding you as 5 speeds are limited and therefore some options are added regardless.
You might be able to order the 2001 covers and just swap them out. Mention it to the dealer and hint to him that it would make your decision easier if they could help you with that, as well as the spoiler.
I'm suprised to hear you don't like the feel of the 5spd stick. I do not own an IS300 but have test driven several in my quest for a sport sedan. I have owned several Mazda Miatas which have what is universally considered the best manual transmission feel ever. I think the IS300 has 90% as good feel as a Miata but with longer throws. In fact, I have not found any of the other sport sedans to have as good a tranny feel as the IS300. The throws can be reduced with a short shift kit.
Re the spoiler, I've checked with two dealers. Both tell me all 5spds come with the spoiler. One dealer hinted that they might be able to swap the trunk lid with another but we'll see. Easier said than done...
Re the 5spd, maybe it's just me. The length of the throws didn't bother me, the shifter just felt fragile (I'm used to Audi shifters). Anyway, I'm sure it's just a matter of getting used to.
Lastly, I've learned the lease special (2k down +399 mo) is only for the automatics? Aaaaarrrrrrrgggggggggg! Does anyone know why Lexus did not build many manuals this year? Even though not having a manual in 2001 was the biggest complaint last year? It just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway...
jr47... You should check out the lease residuals between automatic and manual IS300s. If Lexus thinks there will be a big difference in future resale value (likely favoring the automatic), then it makes sense why their subsidized lease special would be on the automatic. Guessin' there might be something for the manual, but you'd have to ask the dealer. Its monthly lease rate likely higher than automatic, both subsidized and unsubsidized.
You should compare residuals between automatics and manuals in other cars. Look at the Lincoln LS6 and the Cadillac CTS. Believe in both cases the future resale value of the manuals is projected to be lower. Partially a function of supply and demand. There are so few made and they think there are few people interested. Might also be due to perceptions that the manual drivers will drive their cars harder?
USA is not a place where manufacturers or leasors think people want manuals, not in luxury cars or near luxury cars, even if they are luxury Sport cars.
riez, Thanks for your input. I'll definitely check it out before pulling the trigger (on anything). It should be interesting to hear what they think the future values will be and more importantly why. Even though the IS is considered a "luxury sport" car, it seems to be more "sport" than "luxury" and I think people recognize that (and would therefore want the manual). Anyway, one can spin it any way they want. I think what you say about the perception of manual sport cars being driven harder than automatics is true. That and the fact that many people in the market for a "luxury" car are forced to deal with a daily commute to the office and therefore do not want the hassle of a manual while sitting in traffic.
Lets face it, it's NO surprise that the IS300 (er souped up Corolla) has been a bomb since their introduction. (I told ya!) The aggressive styling of a boy racer definitely turned off lots of buyers as indicated in the sales volume. The fact is there is NOT many who are interested in the IS300. Price reduction didn't help much either. Many of you blamed the lack of manual at the time of introduction was the reason for the lack of sales. Baloney!
The "fun factor" means NOTHING if you can't get people to sit inside the vehicle. Three years from now when Lexus refine their styling on the IS300, I'm sure it'll be a big hit. By that time, your current IS300 investment will probably depreciate faster than the average Lexus vehicles due to lack of demand and price reduction in the MSRP on the IS300.
Also, when the G35 coupe comes out, you can pretty much say good bye to IS300 sales. For sure, it will plummet. In the meantime, who in their right mind want to buy IS300 when you can get a fairly decent option on the G35 for $32K?
First off, the IS300 and the Corolla are completely different cars. Totally different platform, from the drive train on up.
Second, I DON'T CARE that people aren't buying because the marketing doesn't pull them in enough to do the test drive. I also don't really care that much about the depreciation. If the G35 kills IS300 sales, the impact on us is a big zero. We already have our car.
Bottom line for us: the car was the right styling, the right size, the right feature set, the right fun factor, at the right price. An additional bonus is that they aren't terribly popular, which makes them a unique vehicle on the road.
I was beginning to think you forgot about us. Where ya been? I was hoping you would bring some new material though...
Can't fit in the IS buddy? Sounds like someone has a "weight" problem. Time to hit the treadmill maybe?
How ever do people fit into BMW's? This is baffling to say the least!! Thank the Lord for Infiniti who will finally produce cars people can fit into cause we all know bigger is always better.
I kind of like the looks of the new Corolla. I can even see some Altima in the G35. All Lexus has to do is offer up a 3.5 litter engine or forced induction on the current engine and the IS will be right back in the fight. There is so much more to a car than 0-60 though. That might be why so many people have an will buy the IS over other cars in the segment.
yon... Resale value & depreciation are critical! They do make a difference to most buyers. Maybe you're not thinking about it now, but wait till you go to sell your car. If it ends up being worth thousands less than you thought or hoped, it will impact you when you replace the car. And might impact what car you can afford in the future.
The gentleman in post # 1426 obviously doesn't like the IS300. Just ignore him and he will go away. Don't resort to personal attacks or responses to his post.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
nycarguy... Your profile says you own a Saab, are looking for a Honda Prelude, and you're a big fan of European cars & German marques.
I think the IS300 has potential if Toyota/Lexus works aggressively and quickly to make and keep it competitive. I want more and better competition. From Japan, Europe, America, Korea, and elsewhere.
Slow sales figures show IS300 needs something to prosper in marketplace. Me, I'd like to see more power, 6-speed manual, upgraded interior, and remove some of the boyracerishness of the car.
Does that mean I don't like the IS300? No, only that I want to see it improved. And I'm hoping it does hold its resale, esp. in manual form. If manual IS300 fails in USA, bodes poorly for future of manuals in general and sport sedans in particular, including a potentially serious RWD sedan like IS300 (or Infiniti G35, Cadillac CTS, Lincoln LS, etc).
reiz: I was dead set on getting an ED 325Ci when the lease is up on my Saab this fall. I just couldn't work out the finances...I'd rather buy a Prelude and not have to make any car payments then buy a 3 Series and be have to make payments on it for the next 3-5 years.
The IS300 isn't for me. I've driven it, and was impressed. The styling is just too racey for me (just my opinion). I prefer the wolf in sheep's clothing aspect of styling. And for the money, I'd get a 325Ci (I'm not starting a BMW vs. Lexus debate here).
I agree with you about wanting more competition...the more the Japanese and American car companies compete, the better the German cars will get.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
<<Just ignore him and he will go away. Don't resort to personal attacks or responses to his post.>>
Why do you want to ignore me? I only speak the truth (like it or not). LOL
FYI. I was in the market for the IS300 until I saw that pitiful looking thing. I knew right then it was a bust. So now, I drive a 2000 Impala LS. It'll be next year till I upgrade to G35 coupe or unless Lexus drastically change the design (which I highly doubt).
We've had numerous posts on the Mercedes-Benz & BMW boards from "trolls" who provide nothing to the threads themselves. There's nothing wrong with speaking the truth. I'm all for it. I apologize.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
....it's that he can't differentiate between "truth" and opinion. I'm glad you finally told us what you drive. It sheds some light on your reasoning and also gave me a hardy laugh.
I have never leased a car before but the Lexus sponsored lease deal sorta makes future value a non issue for folks that lease.
I think after the price drop the future value will be about average for the IS. I will suffer because I bought before the price drop so my car will depreciate more. The extended warranty that my dealer gave me will help offset some of that though. I got a feeling that my cars value will be a lot better long term than my Enron stock proved to be.
I saw it last night on TV and from the commercial, it looks like the $399/month lease with whatever down payment applies to the IS300 EShift & 5 Speed.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I saw an Absolutely Red IS300 5 Speed with a Black Interior at the auto show! Very nice car. The Red was screaming! I loved it! I like how they gave the red car the "smoked treatment" on the tail lights.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Yes I can say that at least the Lexus dealers in my area don't want many IS300's because I am friends with a 10 year Lexus salesman. He has told me that Lexus dealers are cutting back the numbers of IS300's due to the fact that they sit on the lot to long, which costs the dealership money. Demand is not high enough to warrant having inventory on those cars when that space could be used for faster moving vehicles. The national sales numbers show this to be true. I'm not dissing the IS300. I love the car. But lets be real. It is not selling anywhere near what Lexus hoped it would. Dealers don't want cars sitting on the lot for very long. Since there is no factory supply problem, no high demand, then if there are few IS300's sitting on the lot, the dealers are not requesting many. BTW The IS300 is lots more fun to drive than the G35. I recently tested both again. However I predict it will sell very well mostly because it hits the target market better than the IS300.
Lexus sold a measly 1,119 new IS300 units during February 2002.
The car has great potential but it indeed has much room for improvement.
If I really wanted it a new IS300 I would lease, not buy it. I think that other offerings in its market segment already surpass the IS300, namely the Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G35, BMW 3 series, etc.
Even Pontiac will begin to offer next year the GM's Australian Holden Monaro Coupe as the 2004 Pontiac GTO. Check out the hardware of this car....5.7L "Generation III" aluminum V8, RWD, 6-speed manual transmission, superb handling, Corvette levels of performance. Admission price: Just under $30K.
Lexus/Toyota: Take serious notice..the IS300 is getting very outdated as each day goes by.
Yes, I saw those numbers somewhere also. Those numbers are despite the new manual and sportcross models recently introduced. The CTS already out sells it. The G35 soon will do the same. Let's not even mention the 3 series. Lexus should step up to the plate and really compete. Change the interior, turbo charge the engine ( it has been turbo charged in the past)alter the styling a bit, maybe stretch the wheelbase a tad for a little more room, keep the price low. Oh, and get rid of that prop rod!
It's sad that all the hype of a "BMW fighter" never lived up to the hype. Lexus should have used me as a market test. (I was a boy racer once in my golden days). hehe.
One thing Lexus should have learned is that you can't mix boy racer look and feel in an entry level luxury market. The entry level luxury buyers are more sophiscated and demand conservative styling vs. aggressive styling. It's a no brainer! That is why BMW has been a major success. With the introduction of G35, I'm hoping this added competition will bring BMW down to Earth, and for Lexus to quickly retool their redesign.
But hey, what do you expect from a souped up Corolla? This IS300 model should have been badged as a Toyota for $23K, not $32K Lexus. Get real! HELLO!!
jagboyxkr... Not sure BMW would be too afraid if some manufacturer today reverse engineered and copied their current design. They have had that happen twice and both competitors failed.
The Soviets/East Germans built duplicate pre-WW II BMWs immediately after WW II and up to early 1950s for hard currency. They had BMW's factory, engineers, designs, tool & die, etc. BMW had to sue in late 1940s to get the East Germans to rename the cars EMW (Eisnach Motor Works), as BMW's big factory had been in Eisnach. There are a few EMWs in USA today. Very rare collectors items.
The British aircraft manufacturer Bristol also snatched up BMW's pre-WW II designs and many designers right after WW II. Bristol got the material free as war reparations. Walked in, took 'em, and sent 'em to England. They essentially built pre-war BMWs thru the 1980s. Cars like Bristol 401 thru 411 and others. Exterior was British styling but the hardware was all BMW.
"Not sure BMW would be too afraid if some manufacturer today reverse engineered and copied their current design. They have had that happen twice and both competitors failed."
That is exactly one of my points! (see my above post titled "IS300")Thank you for proving one of my points with some interesting history as well.
I had said that if the other makers really wanted to, they could dissect the 3-Series, learn how it works, and then build their own with different badges. However, I stated that no one would buy them because they could get the original 3-Series from BMW, and not the duplicate, or as you said, "copycats". MY WHOLE POINT WAS THAT A DUPLICATE WOULD FAIL, JUST AS A MODEL THAT DOES NOT OFFER WHAT A COMPANY IS EXPECTED TO OFFER IS FAILING! Lexus tried to just outperform the 3-Series without offering Lexus traits in the package. Other makes are being smarter and offering traits from their heritages and better performance to compete.
Riez - If BMW would not be "too afraid" if another company copied them, then why did they sue EMW in the 1940's like you stated?
And I know another reason why the other two companies that copied the old BMWs failed, its because many old BMWs are pieces of junk and are nothing like their current incarnations.
jagboyxkr... Think how hard it was for BMW to try and restart their automobile manufacturing operations in the post-WW II environment when another company 100 miles away in their old factory was selling cars under their name! Would be like Ford copying Ferrari and then selling the cars under the Ferrari name and using the Ferrari badging. Mighty confusin' to the consumer!
Except for the cramped interior, there is nothing in the current IS300 that can't be fixed. The IS300 is a great looking car with excellent chassis. The taillights can easily be replaced. Price can be dropped. Interior can be improved with richer material. Engine can be replaced with a more powerful one. Look for at least some of these changes next year!
Oh, poor BMW. They had to convert from building aircraft and motorcycle engines for the [non-permissible content removed] back to building automobile engines for the war-torn [non-permissible content removed]. I have so much sympathy for them back then.
By the way, you must be lost. This is the Lexus IS300 message board, not the Bayerische Motoren Werke board.
Hey, I drive a Jaguar, so I'm on the good side! You're the one with the Japanese Subaru, although I don't think they were around until 1958. Besides, Riez's post instructed me to: "Think how hard it was for BMW to try and restart their automobile manufacturing operations in the post-WW II environment".
Really, I don't care how hard it was for BMW back then, especially considering what had just occurred. They should have to struggle a bit after what they had done. It's called war crimes. Had they not stopped car production in favor of building aircraft engines to take American and Allied lives, then it would not have been so hard for them to restart. Your post just demonstrates what side you are on.
The base-level C-Class cars are cheap feeling and cheaply built, I disagree strongly that they are baby S-Classes. Similarly the X-TYPE is a poorly conceived, 1st generation product from Ford, not Jaguar.
The A4 continues to be refined and is a very good car (i was strongly considering it also)
The boy-racer critique of the IS300 has some merit, but is also overstated. Firstly, the '02 model uses much nicer materials in the interior. The big boy-racer components (taillights, pedals, shifter knob) can all be easily rectified if desired. What you are left with is a pretty refined, upscale interior (especially in the tan interior)
Finally, although the IS300 does not hold a candle to the rest of the Lexus lineup for Ride qualities, it is comparable to it's competitors (More refined than a 3-series absolutely). This is another instance where the '02 model is noticably better, BTW.
Comments
I also don't think you can say the dealers don't want the cars. I am sure they would like to see them leaping off their lots but from what I have seen, the IS attracts a completely different type of customer that Lexus would never get without the IS. I know that because I am one of those people. I also know this because every time I have been in the dealership a younger man or couple have been looking at an IS. If anything slow sales mean great deals for buyers.
I have a SportX which gives you a hatchback and folding rear seats. I hear you about not having a folding back seat. All cars in this segment should have one. The Acura CL/TL and Infinity G35 don't have folding rear seats either.
One final thought, performance is more than 0-60 MPH. The IS does quite well in handling, braking, steering feel, and ride but isn't as fast in a striaght line as a 330. There are a number of $25K cars, like the WRX, that have better performance than a 330 if 0-60 MPH is all you look at. I think the IS provides a good balance of overall performance and creature features at a substantially lower price than a 330. Slow sales again mean better deals. One person's down side is another person's upside.
Really, what does the IS300 get you at its price that you can't get for less (Cadillac CTS, Lincoln LS, G35, etc.) or similar (330i) price?
I drove a G35 last weekend. Nice ride, handled well, but you could feel the size of the vehicle in comparison to a 3 series or IS300. The engine didn't provide the overwhelming "giddy up" I expected, and it was extremely loud under hard acceleration, which was required to get it to move in a hurry. My opinion is this will attract a slightly older driver where size is a concern and not so much performance. For instance, a couple in their late 40's or early 50's was in the process of buying one while I was at the dealership. This wouldn't be my pick for a drive though the mountains, that's for sure, but it would be my pick for long distance trips. In my mind, it really reminded me of the C320 in size and drive, which is good for Infiniti, and bad for Merc.
Interior was blah, which probably shows my age (26), because I think the IS has one of the most unique interiors on the market. The plastic argument is tired, and doesn't speak at all for the rest of the car's interior, which is less than lacking. One feature I really like on the G35 was the reclining rear seats. That's a nice touch, as well as the tilt steering where the console moved with the wheel as to not obstruct the view of the gauges. On the other hand, it only came with a 200 watt system (only 6 speakers and 1 sub)...and it sounded terrible. Don't forget, there's no LSD, less than performance tires come standard (55 sidewalls) and a traction control that you can't exactly turn off with the greatest of ease, if at all? I see a lot of hype, but can't wait to see slalom, skidpad and braking figures.
To answer your question, you're missing the fun factor, a decent stereo system, real performance tires, limited slip, a stick (even though it's coming) and I'll bank that almost all performace numbers except acceleration will not beat or match smaller cars in its class. I may be proven wrong, but it didn't feel like it from the seat of my pants (however unscientific they may be). The resaon I think the IS will continue to suffer still is mainstream America doesn't care what a car does through the slalom or on the skidpad. If sales stop altogether, I'll be more than happy to see less of them on the road, as long as the parts are available if I ever need them.
But if everyone is going to jump on the Nissan campaign where you're taught to believe HP and 0-60 is the end all be all (read: Altima), you should be more concerned with BMW, which is going to lose in that department as well as in size AND most significantly in price.
Some things the IS still has going for it are price, performance that rivals or beats the BMW (according to many editors), the Lexus quality/service/reliability and great looks (subjective, I know). But Infiniti is no slacker in reliability either - another strike for the Germans.
It's a great time to be a buyer, that's for sure.
C&D compares the G35 to IS300 in 5 areas. The G35 is less expensive than the IS300, accelerated much quicker, braked better, produced a higher skidpad g figure, and gets better EPA city mileage figure. So C&D scores it 5-0, G35 over IS300.
Actually, the IS300 was the most expensive of the 4 cars C&D compared figures to: 325i, G35, Cadillac CTS, and IS300. And the IS300 numbers were slowest acceleration both 0-60 mph and 1/4 mile, 2nd best braker, worst skidpad grip, and worst fuel economy. Maybe that is why sales are poor?
For me, value means a very well built, reliable car. So I am automatically biased towards cars from Japan. That means IS300, G35, and Acura TL.
The latter two are *big* cars, which is fine for some but I prefer something smaller. Admittedly, the interior of the IS300 is a tad more cramped than I would like.
There are many other reasons, not the least of which is out of all the cars I test drove (which was basically all of them in the class), None were more fun than the IS300 and the BMW. I dont fancy myself a BMW person so there you have it.
Most reviews I have read are similarly perplexed by the IS300. It seems like a non-competitor on paper, but when they drive it they dont want to give it up.
Maybe that initial specmanship hurdle knocks it off a lot of peoples lists. It probably also suffers from being radically different than what the typical Lexus shopper is looking at. The G35 may suffer from this some but at least its a big car.
The dash materials are much better for '02, BTW. The whole interior feels much nicer, albeit still very young-skewing (with chrome speaker covers added). I wish the center console was a bit cleaner but the rest is comparable to the class competitors (and nicer than some).
Finally, I cant believe the 325i scored better in acceleration times. Its a significantly slower car.
Would you mind listing the marks here for each? I'm also wondering what options they're adding to each, or were they referring to the base models without options when calculating price?
Gas mileage is expectedly poor too, but it's funny that the G lists theirs as only one gallon better than the IS.
Also agree with Bob. You could offer me an even swap with the G35, and I wouldn't take it. Again, I'm probably a minority in that regard, and a reason sales are suffering as you mentioned. But they were also suffering before these others came out, and I think it's too early to tell how the new competitors are affecting the IS, which undoubtably is also suffering from a poor economy and 9/11. I think the reason lots are empty is poor estimations by Lexus, not the fact the dealers don't want them. That would be conterproductive to say the least.
One of the C&D comparison mentioned above was done 2-3 months ago. The IS 5 speed was equipped with all season tires instead of the much stickier "sport package" tires which impacted some of the numbers. Most of the comments confirmed that the IS is still a good car and "performance" is good. With the IS price reductions in Jan02 the IS costs less than it did before.
I don't think you can really go wrong buying any of these cars in this segment they all have a lot of goodness in them. It will be interesting to see how the HP wars escalate next year. It would seem that BMW has the most to lose.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
For us, the fun-to-drive quotient, the utility of the hatchback form factor, the unique styling, the Nav, and the size were clinchers. Especially the size. My wife likes small cars, and the other makes/models being bandied about here would have been too large for her tastes.
Also add me to the camp that who likes the low sales figures, especially of the SportCross. I have yet to see another one on the road around here (we've seen a few sedans thought), and my wife is especially enjoying the double-takes the car provokes.
The SportCross makes a wonderful counterpoint to my new 02 ES300. The ES is great for the long trips, and the IS is perfect for banging around on the weekend.
We're both in our upper 30's.
I test drove a 5spd yesterday with mixed emotions. While I loved driving it, I had 3 issues (if you can call them that).
1. The stick. It didn't feel as "solid" as other manual transmissions I've driven. Almost like it was going to break off when shifting. Does one get used to it after a while? Is it just an aquired taste???
2. The spoiler is a "mandatory option" for the 5spd (nice oxymoron there). Is there any way of getting around this? Has anyone had success having Lexus swap trunk lids with a non-spoiler lid? Or, removing the spoiler and filling in the holes (although at that point I think I'd just keep it)
3. Chrome speaker covers???
Anyway, if anyone has any input on the first two I'd appreciate it.
Thanks...
After spending a week with a Lincoln LS V8, I was amazed at how good it felt to get back in the SportX. The Lincoln isn't a bad car but it has a completely different feel to it. The IS just feels so much better connected to the driver. The Lincoln just felt like a bigger wider car and the steering feel wasn't as good. The V8 may be a little faster for a stoplight drag race but I would rather drive the IS everyday.
You might be able to order the 2001 covers and just swap them out. Mention it to the dealer and hint to him that it would make your decision easier if they could help you with that, as well as the spoiler.
I'm suprised to hear you don't like the feel of the 5spd stick. I do not own an IS300 but have test driven several in my quest for a sport sedan. I have owned several Mazda Miatas which have what is universally considered the best manual transmission feel ever. I think the IS300 has 90% as good feel as a Miata but with longer throws. In fact, I have not found any of the other sport sedans to have as good a tranny feel as the IS300. The throws can be reduced with a short shift kit.
Re the 5spd, maybe it's just me. The length of the throws didn't bother me, the shifter just felt fragile (I'm used to Audi shifters). Anyway, I'm sure it's just a matter of getting used to.
Lastly, I've learned the lease special (2k down +399 mo) is only for the automatics? Aaaaarrrrrrrgggggggggg! Does anyone know why Lexus did not build many manuals this year? Even though not having a manual in 2001 was the biggest complaint last year? It just doesn't make sense to me. Anyway...
You should compare residuals between automatics and manuals in other cars. Look at the Lincoln LS6 and the Cadillac CTS. Believe in both cases the future resale value of the manuals is projected to be lower. Partially a function of supply and demand. There are so few made and they think there are few people interested. Might also be due to perceptions that the manual drivers will drive their cars harder?
USA is not a place where manufacturers or leasors think people want manuals, not in luxury cars or near luxury cars, even if they are luxury Sport cars.
The "fun factor" means NOTHING if you can't get people to sit inside the vehicle. Three years from now when Lexus refine their styling on the IS300, I'm sure it'll be a big hit. By that time, your current IS300 investment will probably depreciate faster than the average Lexus vehicles due to lack of demand and price reduction in the MSRP on the IS300.
Also, when the G35 coupe comes out, you can pretty much say good bye to IS300 sales. For sure, it will plummet. In the meantime, who in their right mind want to buy IS300 when you can get a fairly decent option on the G35 for $32K?
Second, I DON'T CARE that people aren't buying because the marketing doesn't pull them in enough to do the test drive. I also don't really care that much about the depreciation. If the G35 kills IS300 sales, the impact on us is a big zero. We already have our car.
Bottom line for us: the car was the right styling, the right size, the right feature set, the right fun factor, at the right price. An additional bonus is that they aren't terribly popular, which makes them a unique vehicle on the road.
Can't fit in the IS buddy? Sounds like someone has a "weight" problem. Time to hit the treadmill maybe?
How ever do people fit into BMW's? This is baffling to say the least!! Thank the Lord for Infiniti who will finally produce cars people can fit into cause we all know bigger is always better.
You crack me up...
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I think the IS300 has potential if Toyota/Lexus works aggressively and quickly to make and keep it competitive. I want more and better competition. From Japan, Europe, America, Korea, and elsewhere.
Slow sales figures show IS300 needs something to prosper in marketplace. Me, I'd like to see more power, 6-speed manual, upgraded interior, and remove some of the boyracerishness of the car.
Does that mean I don't like the IS300? No, only that I want to see it improved. And I'm hoping it does hold its resale, esp. in manual form. If manual IS300 fails in USA, bodes poorly for future of manuals in general and sport sedans in particular, including a potentially serious RWD sedan like IS300 (or Infiniti G35, Cadillac CTS, Lincoln LS, etc).
reiz: I was dead set on getting an ED 325Ci when the lease is up on my Saab this fall. I just couldn't work out the finances...I'd rather buy a Prelude and not have to make any car payments then buy a 3 Series and be have to make payments on it for the next 3-5 years.
The IS300 isn't for me. I've driven it, and was impressed. The styling is just too racey for me (just my opinion). I prefer the wolf in sheep's clothing aspect of styling. And for the money, I'd get a 325Ci (I'm not starting a BMW vs. Lexus debate here).
I agree with you about wanting more competition...the more the Japanese and American car companies compete, the better the German cars will get.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
Why do you want to ignore me? I only speak the truth (like it or not). LOL
FYI.
I was in the market for the IS300 until I saw that pitiful looking thing. I knew right then it was a bust. So now, I drive a 2000 Impala LS. It'll be next year till I upgrade to G35 coupe or unless Lexus drastically change the design (which I highly doubt).
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
I think after the price drop the future value will be about average for the IS. I will suffer because I bought before the price drop so my car will depreciate more. The extended warranty that my dealer gave me will help offset some of that though. I got a feeling that my cars value will be a lot better long term than my Enron stock proved to be.
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
2001 Prelude Type SH, 2022 Highlander XLE AWD, 2023 Toyota Tacoma SR 4WD
The car has great potential but it indeed has much room for improvement.
If I really wanted it a new IS300 I would lease, not buy it. I think that other offerings in its market segment already surpass the IS300, namely the Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G35, BMW 3 series, etc.
Even Pontiac will begin to offer next year the GM's Australian Holden Monaro Coupe as the 2004 Pontiac GTO. Check out the hardware of this car....5.7L "Generation III" aluminum V8, RWD, 6-speed manual transmission, superb handling, Corvette levels of performance. Admission price: Just under $30K.
Lexus/Toyota: Take serious notice..the IS300 is getting very outdated as each day goes by.
One thing Lexus should have learned is that you can't mix boy racer look and feel in an entry level luxury market. The entry level luxury buyers are more sophiscated and demand conservative styling vs. aggressive styling. It's a no brainer! That is why BMW has been a major success. With the introduction of G35, I'm hoping this added competition will bring BMW down to Earth, and for Lexus to quickly retool their redesign.
But hey, what do you expect from a souped up Corolla? This IS300 model should have been badged as a Toyota for $23K, not $32K Lexus. Get real! HELLO!!
The Soviets/East Germans built duplicate pre-WW II BMWs immediately after WW II and up to early 1950s for hard currency. They had BMW's factory, engineers, designs, tool & die, etc. BMW had to sue in late 1940s to get the East Germans to rename the cars EMW (Eisnach Motor Works), as BMW's big factory had been in Eisnach. There are a few EMWs in USA today. Very rare collectors items.
The British aircraft manufacturer Bristol also snatched up BMW's pre-WW II designs and many designers right after WW II. Bristol got the material free as war reparations. Walked in, took 'em, and sent 'em to England. They essentially built pre-war BMWs thru the 1980s. Cars like Bristol 401 thru 411 and others. Exterior was British styling but the hardware was all BMW.
That is exactly one of my points! (see my above post titled "IS300")Thank you for proving one of my points with some interesting history as well.
I had said that if the other makers really wanted to, they could dissect the 3-Series, learn how it works, and then build their own with different badges. However, I stated that no one would buy them because they could get the original 3-Series from BMW, and not the duplicate, or as you said, "copycats". MY WHOLE POINT WAS THAT A DUPLICATE WOULD FAIL, JUST AS A MODEL THAT DOES NOT OFFER WHAT A COMPANY IS EXPECTED TO OFFER IS FAILING!
Lexus tried to just outperform the 3-Series without offering Lexus traits in the package. Other makes are being smarter and offering traits from their heritages and better performance to compete.
Riez - If BMW would not be "too afraid" if another company copied them, then why did they sue EMW in the 1940's like you stated?
And I know another reason why the other two companies that copied the old BMWs failed, its because many old BMWs are pieces of junk and are nothing like their current incarnations.
I miss Ivan. He was a lot more fun. I wonder if he still has the Malibu?
By the way, you must be lost. This is the Lexus IS300 message board, not the Bayerische Motoren Werke board.
"Think how hard it was for BMW to
try and restart their automobile
manufacturing operations in the
post-WW II environment".
Really, I don't care how hard it was for BMW back then, especially considering what had just occurred. They should have to struggle a bit after what they had done. It's called war crimes. Had they not stopped car production in favor of building aircraft engines to take American and Allied lives, then it would not have been so hard for them to restart. Your post just demonstrates what side you are on.
The A4 continues to be refined and is a very good car (i was strongly considering it also)
The boy-racer critique of the IS300 has some merit, but is also overstated. Firstly, the '02 model uses much nicer materials in the interior. The big boy-racer components (taillights, pedals, shifter knob) can all be easily rectified if desired. What you are left with is a pretty refined, upscale interior (especially in the tan interior)
Finally, although the IS300 does not hold a candle to the rest of the Lexus lineup for Ride qualities, it is comparable to it's competitors (More refined than a 3-series absolutely). This is another instance where the '02 model is noticably better, BTW.