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The guys on NPR Car Talk do a newspaper column. The one from a couple weeks ago. A lady taught her daughter to drive a stick on their brand new car. 68 miles, and the clutch is gone.
I'm not suggesting that will happen often, or in this case, but if you don't know what you are doing (i.e: can't tell first from third), then it can happen very quickly.
I love sticks, and the TL is a great car, but I doubt I would buy it that way... but, hey.. that is why it comes both ways.
regards,
kyfdx
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I also saw the "Click and Clack" article - it was a VW New Beetle Turbo. I would think the Acura clutch would be a little more durable, but I do like the suggestion of learning on an older car first. Heck, my 1995 Maxima SE is available to rent for $399.00 for 68 miles!
For the record, one of the smoothest clutches I dr=ove was a 2002 BMW M5 with 400 hp and 369 ft-lbs of torque. I was expecting to lose my fillings, and it was as smooth as silk - easier to modulate in fact than the 540i 6-speed. So high horsepower doesn't need to translate into tough clutches.
You have to scan through the titles but you should find something worth buying. Just remember, this is still a relatively new format so not all albums, current or past, are released on DVD audio. If you don't find what you like on this site, search for others. I've found some to carry a considerable amount more than other sites.
The Acuras sound system also plays regular CD's.
I've done my best to scan the forums to get a sense of the issues with the TL.
So here's my question:
What do you like LEAST about the TL? (I know it's a great car, so asking what you like the most isn't as informative...)
Thanks for your thoughts!
Last night I test drove a 330i sedan 6-speed after test driving the TL 6-speed a second time the night before. The TL 6-speed I ordered arrived at the dealership today and I'm trying to make sure I want to go through with the purchase.
In my opinion, the TL had a nicer interior and a little more elbow room than the tighter, lighter 330i. However, the 330i, notwithstanding giving up about 50 horsepower and 25 ft-lbs to the TL, still felt the quicker of the two, by a noticable margin. And it is a much easier car to "push" as far as smooth shifts at or near redline. The TL is more of a handful to keep pointed in the right direction under hard acceleration. As far as handling, the 330i had a slight edge, with less body roll and tighter steering around corners. The one I test drove did not have the sport package. I suspect that with the sport or performance packages, the difference in favor of the 330i would be even more noticable.
Unfortunately the 330i isn't sufficiently sized to be a replacement for our Nissan Maxima, whereas the TL is. And the 5-series is just too damn funky ugly for me. But I came to appreciate that the TL is not a 3-series beater when it comes to sporty performance. What say you??
Anyone knows comparing to other FWD cars with power, is TL's TS particularly excessive?
BMW330xi (current car): not much wrong with it handling, steering, and acceleration-wise -- a really great drive. The only things that I've grown tired of is the somewhat austere interior, the painfully tight back seat, and the piece-of-crap navigation system.
Acura TL: spectacular interior with tremendous Nav system, stereo, and other gadgets (which I live for). I didn't notice torque steer (though i doubt I'm sufficiently sophisticated enough to detect it if it's subtle -- I sorta thing some drive the TL knowing it's FWD and therefore assume it is there). The main thing I noticed that was different from the 330 is the steering -- thought it was a bit 'loose' in the TL.
BMW 530: okay. I'm fortunate to be in the position of being able to afford a 530, which is nearly double the cost of a TL. I assumed there'd be no contest between the two. The 530 definitely felt more substantial and definitely handled better. BUT, the interior of the 530 just sucks. I know this stuff is all subjective, but I thought it was cheap looking -- especially the cup holder that swings out of the dash. And I pride myself on being a techie, gadget nut. I'm not afraid of technology and assumed the iDrive would not be as bad as everyone says it is. I didn't play with it much (cuz the salesman was afraid of letting me fiddle with it while we were driving), but it's just so totally unnecessary. I LOVE gadgets, but this completely turned me off.
Anyway, hopefully I can give the 6-speed TL a whirl today...
also, since you drive with left hand on manual and right hand on stick, if the torque steer kicks in and jerks the wheel to the right, you really notice the torque steer!
that said, for most driving situations, the torque steer ain't bad and you can get used to it. if you drive like an F1 racer though, prolly the TL is not the car for you.
There was just this feelilng of ergonomic wrongness and cheapness which I can't really put well into words that I didn't like about the 5.
Bodble, I only like the new 5 in dark colors too. It just looks fat in lighter colors. I've never seen a car shape look so different in different colors.
Regarding "torque steer" and the other undesireable results of FWD setups (front heavy weight balance, less planted in cornering), I do NOT think you need to have an F1 driving style to find these somewhat objectionable. There is not, to my knowledge, a $45k+ luxury sedan that is FWD. Some AWD, but mostly RWD. Furthermore, it was Acura that decided to endow the TL with 270 horsepower and a 6-speed with low profile tires and Brembo brakes for 2004. I would suggest that if you want to drive the TL like your grandmother's Camry, you probably won't notice the torque steer or handling issues. But in that case, you should probably buy the Camry and save $10k+. As best I can tell, Acura wanted to position the TL against the 330i, so that's what I am using to compare against.
P.S. argelius - The 530i is nearly double the cost of the TL?? Either you are planning on getting a spectacluar deal on the TL or you are being abused by your BMW dealer. The price I have negotiated on the 2004 TL 6-speed Navigation with HPT is $33,400. The price I could get a 530i 6-speed with sport package and various goodies is under $48,000 through European Delivery, about $51k stateside. The 545i 6-speed is the liklier way I swould go, at about a $8k premium to those figures. Which is still well less than double the price on the TL.
Please, everyone post their test drive results before I pull the trigger or throw away a great deal.
While I didn't spend tons of time in the car, for my "gut" immediately told me this wasn't a car for me (for all of those intangible, difficult-to-describe reasons..) However, as for the things I *can* put my finger on...
- the way the dash is laid out so horizontally across the interior, without the usual slight bend toward the driver
- the minimalist approach of having so few knobs, dials, buttons be replaced by the iDrive. I *like* buttons! (for aesthetic and functional reasons)
- the turn signal stalk: when you activate the stubby little thing it immediately returns to its resting position, so it doesn't jump back to center once you complete the turn like normal turn signals do. Don't know why they decided they needed to fix something that wasn't a problem
Those are the things that immediately come to mind. I wont re-elaborate on my reaction to the iDrive. I really thought I was going to like it (being a supreme gadget head), but I found it just annoying and unnecessary...
The TL competes well with the 330, but you'll save about $10k when a 330 is equipped like the TL. Unless you are a sports car enthusiast and drive like one everyday (not possible if you live or work in the city), the incremental handling capability of the 330 is, IMHO, not worth the extra money, not to mention the roomier interior of the TL, its great Nav and sound system, as well as other cool gadgets.
IMO, the TL is the best value out there for an entry level luxury car that comes with gobs of power and sporty inclinations, notwithstanding its FWD and torque steer.
Has anyone had a similar issue?
rubbing against itself in the newer models, but luckily I love
to listen to the stereo all the time
The "new" appearance and the I-drive are surely hurting sales and future values. In addition, Consumer Reports has removed them from the Recommended list due to increasing problems.
NO, the TL is not QUITE a 5-series in ride and handling, but just wait a couple of years.
2) How do you feel on the Acura Care extended warranty?
Shopping TL, 325i and 05' C230 K sedan...all 3 have their unique selling points and are equally good making it a hard choice in the mid-30k field.
It seems from the sales figures (and brochures) that the silver/black is the most popular. It may depreciate less but personally I get daily head turns and wows with my Nighthawk Black/Camel. Get what you like because all the combos are selling pretty well except maybe the green.
2) How do you feel on the Acura Care extended warranty?
NO!!!!That's why you are buying a quality car. In general, ALL extended warantees are a crock and especially if the car is of good quality. Get it if you get the BMW, not for the TL.
Shopping TL, 325i and 05' C230 K sedan...all 3 have their unique selling points and are equally good making it a hard choice in the mid-30k field.
Get what you want but I compared these three (and the G35, 330) and the TL won me over in a landslide. I thought the styling was the best but this is subjective. The interior is consistently viewed as better than those others and the technology you get (DVD-audio, Bluetooth wireless) are unique and useful every day. If you have any interest in a Navigation system, the TL has the best. If you compare performance, they all have a little different feel but perform great. The TL corners like it's on rails and rockets off the line. For my money, it wasn't even close.
In a related article recently in one of the car magazines based on a study from DuPont, here was the results. Grey colors are the fastest growing in popularity.
2003 2002
1. Silver 20.2% 22.8%
2. White 18.4% 15.2%
3. Black 11.6% 12%
4. Grey 11.5% 7%
5. Lgt Brown 8.8% 6.4%
6. Blue 8.5% 10.9%
7. Med. Red 6.9% 6.9%
I love the car and my experience with the dealer to this point has been exemplary. I only hope this problem does not spoil what has otherwise been a great car buying experience.
If anyone else has anything to contribute, please do. I will be printing these posts for use as "ammunition" if and when it becomes necessary.
My Solara developed it at about 2 years - cured by re-painting. NOW, I am just beginning to noticed it on my 6 mo. old TL. I will try to get Acura to re-paint when it gets bad enough. This does not belong on a luxury car.
I've searched the forums for info on this, and have gleaned some useful stuff from it, but such a high percentage of the posts were critical of adding wood, they were hard to sift through.
For what it's worth, I have a black/black TL and would like to add a FEW pieces of wood trim (doors, above glove box, maybe some around the shifter, storage compartments, etc). I am hoping to find a manufacturer that offers the kit in something dark (like cherry or dark burl) to keep the wood effect subdued.
Thanks!
grri03: Actually, I am more inclined towards the TL for the same reasons you have stated :-). Aside from being great value on paper, the V-6 is smooth and gives out great sounds. Some might say its handicapped by its FWD config. but I think that only comes into play if you're driving the extra 1/10th. I find the TL's handling sure-footed, solid and easy (under normal circumstances). Depending on how you load up coming into a corner, I sensed a degree of adjustability mid-corner that I find characterful. There is understeer, but most cars sold (regardless of config, has understeer dialed in for safety so...).
IMHO, the 325i remains a driver's classic (for what it promises it's an arguable good value and quality piece as well) but I fear its getting a little long in the tooth and I hate thought of seeing myself everywhere I go. The I-6 remains a gem. And then there is the concern that the 3er is due for replacement soon.
Normally, I wouldn't consider the C230K, but promises of much needed improvements in the interior, reworked 6-speed tranny coupled with the eager kompressor I-4 and attractive AMG-inspired body pieces seems like fun. I generally don't lean towards badges. Haven't driven the '05's quite yet.
I realize that silver and grey with black interior seems the most popular (a little too popular with other makes and models as well)...amusingly, I was posting the question on colors as I found the green/parchment combo quite attractive...but so does the blue/camel...oh well. :-)
If you have a Bluetooth phone:
[1] What model?
[2] What carrier?
[3] How well does it work with your TL?
Thanks!
unmatched bang for your buck--good lines, great interior, DVD-A is remarkable, XM is here to stay, 270 hp, FWD (semi snow-belt), room for 4 adults and their stuff for a long weekend, etc...
Believe it or not, I've owned or leased 9 cars in the past 13 years, ranging from an '81 Honda Civic 1500 GL to an '00 BMW M5, and everything in between. Now, for example, understand that the suspension in the TL comes nowhere close to a BMW's; however, the 3 series Bimmer is at least $7-10K more than the TL, and probably not as well equipped. A 5 series equally equipped is over $50K.
I just took the TL to NYC with the wife and another couple, and both myself and the other husband, both motorheads, were truly impressed with the Acura as a package. It is quick, relatively isolated, well-appointed, gets pretty good gas mileage (25 mpg at an average speed of 75 mph with 4 adults and gear), and is $33k OTD!!
No, it's not going to win any climb the mountain races; yes, the suspension is a little floaty at higher speeds; yes, there is a hint of torque steer that becomes more apparent under certain circumstances (e.g. on accelerating through a right turn on rough roadway); yes, the BMW 330i with the ZHP is prettier, handles better, but it's $10k more than the Acura. But if money is an issue, and to most of us it is, one cannot go wrong with the 2004 Acura TL. Enjoy.
It seems like you favor the TL over the BMW primarily on the price/value. But if you could get a 330i for roughly $1,200 under US invoice or a 545i 6-speed at roughly $2,300 under US invoice, would your evaluation change? Those are the prices I can get if I'm willing to take a little trip to Germany on the ED program. I've negotiated a pretty good deal on a TL 6-speed w/ Navi at $1,000 over invoice ($33,350 w/HPT).
Second, since you formerly had a BMW M5, any withdrawls and any reason you didn't get the TL 6-speed? I would be trading my S2000 and am slightly worried that, after the deal, I will realize that I exchanged a world class sports car for a very good, but not quite world class sedan. It's not as though my old Nissan Maxima 5-speed still isn't about 90% of the driver's car the TL is, albeit without the nice gizmos and interior. How do you feel driving the TL compared to an M5?
regards,
kyfdx
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I thought I had a great deal on a TL 6-speed w/ Mavi & HPT for $33,400. (about $1,000 over invoice).
However, based upon the $2,400 dealer incentive I wasn't previously aware of, I can now buy a brand new 330i 6-speed, sport package, moonroof, xenons for $34,800 ($1,200 under invoice), only $1,400 more than the TL. It doesn't have leather or the nav system, but it does have the BMW handling and performance advantage, plus free service for 4 years/50k miles.
Now this is becoming a tough choice. Thanks for the info.
I asked a local independent body shop that restores Mustangs about it, and he said he encountered the difference more than occasionally because of the poly bumpers.
I have been quoted 34000 for a demo 2004 TL, auto with nav, silver/ebony, rear spoiler, protection package and side moulding. Should i take this car? It has 1400 miles. Is demo car considered a used car?
All opinions would be appreciated.
PLEASE BE QUICK AS I HAVE TO RESPOND BY TOMORROW!!!
IMO, demo car is considered an ABUSED car! I wouldn't pay more than $32k for it.
If it were a 6-speed, I wouldn't pay anything for it; I prefer to have a clutch that hasn't been tried out by every Tom, Dick and Harry in town.
P.S. What is the "protection package"? Thes TL has a leather interiors and a clear coat paint finish from the factory. I thought reputable dealers stopped trying to sell that snake oil years ago.