The guys on NPR Car Talk do a newspaper column. The one from a couple weeks ago. A lady taught her daughter to drive a stick on their brand new car. 68 miles, and the clutch is gone.
I'm not suggesting that will happen often, or in this case, but if you don't know what you are doing (i.e: can't tell first from third), then it can happen very quickly.
I love sticks, and the TL is a great car, but I doubt I would buy it that way... but, hey.. that is why it comes both ways.
Here's an idea. Buy yourself a used Prelude, Accord or Maxima with manual transmission and spend a year driving it to get really proficient with the stick. In about a year's time trade it in on an 05 or 06 TL and drive it like a champ. The depreciation on the first car won't be that significant if you get a 97 or 98 in good shape. Think of it as both a training fee and insurance against wrecking the TL tranny.
kyfdx - My Nissan dealer (DC area = not cheap) sends out service coupons every 3-4 months and the always advertised "clutch replacement" on a Maxima is $399, including parts & labor.
I also saw the "Click and Clack" article - it was a VW New Beetle Turbo. I would think the Acura clutch would be a little more durable, but I do like the suggestion of learning on an older car first. Heck, my 1995 Maxima SE is available to rent for $399.00 for 68 miles!
For the record, one of the smoothest clutches I dr=ove was a 2002 BMW M5 with 400 hp and 369 ft-lbs of torque. I was expecting to lose my fillings, and it was as smooth as silk - easier to modulate in fact than the 540i 6-speed. So high horsepower doesn't need to translate into tough clutches.
I've been learning on my GF 350Z, I don't grind it anymore but theres the occasional stall when going into first... so I'm thinking i'm gonna trade cars with her for a day or to and strictly drive hers and force myself becoming better...
I learned to drive stick on a Prelude and an Integra. Compared to other brands, Honda's manual transmissions are great for learning on because they are so smooth and well built. Try learning on a Ford manual - yikes!
Why didn't you say your GF drives a manual 350Z?! Then for sure you'll have to go for the 6-sp TL, because if you don't you know that sooner or later that will come up during an argument with her, and it's going to hurt more than a kick in the you-know-where!
You know, I thought he was talking about his GrandFather, which would be cool if he was like 75 yo and driving around in a 350Z! At least he's got a cool girlfriend, though.
You have to scan through the titles but you should find something worth buying. Just remember, this is still a relatively new format so not all albums, current or past, are released on DVD audio. If you don't find what you like on this site, search for others. I've found some to carry a considerable amount more than other sites.
DVD-Audio and DTS audio are playable on the TL's system -- there is a growing catalog of this multi-channel stuff "out there" -- try the search engine www.dogpile.com and search for DVD-Audio or DTS-Music.
My current BMW330 lease is about to expire and I'm very interested in the TL. I am *thinking* about trading my BMW330xi for a TL for no rational reason whatsoever. I can't ever hope to explain why I do these things; I'm just promiscuous with cars. One thing that's pushing me toward this is the desire for a manual transmission. Havent had one in a long while, but have driven a friend's Mini Cooper S a bunch of times and am convinced I'm ready for a manual!
I've done my best to scan the forums to get a sense of the issues with the TL.
So here's my question:
What do you like LEAST about the TL? (I know it's a great car, so asking what you like the most isn't as informative...)
she loves hers, but wishes she would have gotten the G or even the TL now... but I don't know about the manny because i'm still very hesitant while using her stick because I'm worried about messin it up... I'm not comfortable using it... we'll see how I feel after a weekend of driving just that...
Have you test driven a TL 6-speed? If so, I'd be interested in your comments.
Last night I test drove a 330i sedan 6-speed after test driving the TL 6-speed a second time the night before. The TL 6-speed I ordered arrived at the dealership today and I'm trying to make sure I want to go through with the purchase.
In my opinion, the TL had a nicer interior and a little more elbow room than the tighter, lighter 330i. However, the 330i, notwithstanding giving up about 50 horsepower and 25 ft-lbs to the TL, still felt the quicker of the two, by a noticable margin. And it is a much easier car to "push" as far as smooth shifts at or near redline. The TL is more of a handful to keep pointed in the right direction under hard acceleration. As far as handling, the 330i had a slight edge, with less body roll and tighter steering around corners. The one I test drove did not have the sport package. I suspect that with the sport or performance packages, the difference in favor of the 330i would be even more noticable.
Unfortunately the 330i isn't sufficiently sized to be a replacement for our Nissan Maxima, whereas the TL is. And the 5-series is just too damn funky ugly for me. But I came to appreciate that the TL is not a 3-series beater when it comes to sporty performance. What say you??
I thought so and no wonder I did not find much TS from the last test drive. How often do people test drive a car exercising throttle to the limit? Plus, if it's the only sure way to sense it I doubt many would think it a big deal, assuming most don't floor throttle from stop too often. If it's there also for mild accelerations or at speed bumps then it'd be annoying enough.
Anyone knows comparing to other FWD cars with power, is TL's TS particularly excessive?
I'm hoping to test drive the TL 6 speed today. Thus far I haven't gotten to drive any sticks, but yesterday I drove the TL, then I drove my 330 (AT) down the street to test drive a new 530 (also AT). So, my comments about the cars so far:
BMW330xi (current car): not much wrong with it handling, steering, and acceleration-wise -- a really great drive. The only things that I've grown tired of is the somewhat austere interior, the painfully tight back seat, and the piece-of-crap navigation system.
Acura TL: spectacular interior with tremendous Nav system, stereo, and other gadgets (which I live for). I didn't notice torque steer (though i doubt I'm sufficiently sophisticated enough to detect it if it's subtle -- I sorta thing some drive the TL knowing it's FWD and therefore assume it is there). The main thing I noticed that was different from the 330 is the steering -- thought it was a bit 'loose' in the TL.
BMW 530: okay. I'm fortunate to be in the position of being able to afford a 530, which is nearly double the cost of a TL. I assumed there'd be no contest between the two. The 530 definitely felt more substantial and definitely handled better. BUT, the interior of the 530 just sucks. I know this stuff is all subjective, but I thought it was cheap looking -- especially the cup holder that swings out of the dash. And I pride myself on being a techie, gadget nut. I'm not afraid of technology and assumed the iDrive would not be as bad as everyone says it is. I didn't play with it much (cuz the salesman was afraid of letting me fiddle with it while we were driving), but it's just so totally unnecessary. I LOVE gadgets, but this completely turned me off.
Anyway, hopefully I can give the 6-speed TL a whirl today...
the torque steer is more noticeable in the TL in the manual, b/c the slushbox in the automatic sucks out some power thus moderating the torque steer.
also, since you drive with left hand on manual and right hand on stick, if the torque steer kicks in and jerks the wheel to the right, you really notice the torque steer!
that said, for most driving situations, the torque steer ain't bad and you can get used to it. if you drive like an F1 racer though, prolly the TL is not the car for you.
Argelius, I felt exactly the same way about the new 5 series interior. Wondering if you could detail what about the interior drove you crazy.
There was just this feelilng of ergonomic wrongness and cheapness which I can't really put well into words that I didn't like about the 5.
Bodble, I only like the new 5 in dark colors too. It just looks fat in lighter colors. I've never seen a car shape look so different in different colors.
I'm going for my third test drive of the TL 6-speed this morning, so I'll post my results as well.
Regarding "torque steer" and the other undesireable results of FWD setups (front heavy weight balance, less planted in cornering), I do NOT think you need to have an F1 driving style to find these somewhat objectionable. There is not, to my knowledge, a $45k+ luxury sedan that is FWD. Some AWD, but mostly RWD. Furthermore, it was Acura that decided to endow the TL with 270 horsepower and a 6-speed with low profile tires and Brembo brakes for 2004. I would suggest that if you want to drive the TL like your grandmother's Camry, you probably won't notice the torque steer or handling issues. But in that case, you should probably buy the Camry and save $10k+. As best I can tell, Acura wanted to position the TL against the 330i, so that's what I am using to compare against.
P.S. argelius - The 530i is nearly double the cost of the TL?? Either you are planning on getting a spectacluar deal on the TL or you are being abused by your BMW dealer. The price I have negotiated on the 2004 TL 6-speed Navigation with HPT is $33,400. The price I could get a 530i 6-speed with sport package and various goodies is under $48,000 through European Delivery, about $51k stateside. The 545i 6-speed is the liklier way I swould go, at about a $8k premium to those figures. Which is still well less than double the price on the TL.
Please, everyone post their test drive results before I pull the trigger or throw away a great deal.
Saugatak...did you *really* ask me to detail what I thought of the 5-series interior?? (I just love babbling about such things...I'm a big fan of interior car design, ergonomics, etc...)
While I didn't spend tons of time in the car, for my "gut" immediately told me this wasn't a car for me (for all of those intangible, difficult-to-describe reasons..) However, as for the things I *can* put my finger on...
- the way the dash is laid out so horizontally across the interior, without the usual slight bend toward the driver
- the minimalist approach of having so few knobs, dials, buttons be replaced by the iDrive. I *like* buttons! (for aesthetic and functional reasons)
- the turn signal stalk: when you activate the stubby little thing it immediately returns to its resting position, so it doesn't jump back to center once you complete the turn like normal turn signals do. Don't know why they decided they needed to fix something that wasn't a problem
Those are the things that immediately come to mind. I wont re-elaborate on my reaction to the iDrive. I really thought I was going to like it (being a supreme gadget head), but I found it just annoying and unnecessary...
The 5 series is in a different league when compared with the TL; not only in terms of "prestige", but also in price and technology.
The TL competes well with the 330, but you'll save about $10k when a 330 is equipped like the TL. Unless you are a sports car enthusiast and drive like one everyday (not possible if you live or work in the city), the incremental handling capability of the 330 is, IMHO, not worth the extra money, not to mention the roomier interior of the TL, its great Nav and sound system, as well as other cool gadgets.
IMO, the TL is the best value out there for an entry level luxury car that comes with gobs of power and sporty inclinations, notwithstanding its FWD and torque steer.
I have been happily driving my '04 TL (w/MT)for about a month. My only complaint is an annoying rattle that sounds like a screw in one of those plastic film cannisters. It sounds like it's coming from somewhere near the gear shift.
Since my neighbor is the GM for BMW I felt I should check it out before trading my '02 Mercedes 230K C Coupe for a TL. The MB made me understand that you get the quality you pay for even if it has the "luxo" logo on it. Europeans do not seem to build the "value" segment well. The demo drive in the 525I was nice, but the car did not measure up to the TL in quality, interior layout, exterior looks, technology or performance. I decided I would have needed the 530I to come close and at that point we were talking $50,000 which was 50% more than the Acura. While the BMW handling was superior, the interior was just O.K. and the salesperson blew by the I Drive saying "It's no big deal". Add that to looks that only a mother could love and you have a poor comparison. I know I will soon see myself coming and going in the TL due to its popularity, much like an Accord, Camry or BMW 3 series. However, I also realize the only reason for me to choose a BMW is for the supposed "image" it conveys over the TL as opposed to any real automotive advantages. I guess the market will ultimately decide the issue.
there is also a lot more expanding and contrasting leather rubbing against itself in the newer models, but luckily I love to listen to the stereo all the time
Besides the better looks, great performance and outstanding value, I bought the TL to avoid the stigma of being a "$@*$!! BMW driver", as they are known here in L.A.
The "new" appearance and the I-drive are surely hurting sales and future values. In addition, Consumer Reports has removed them from the Recommended list due to increasing problems.
NO, the TL is not QUITE a 5-series in ride and handling, but just wait a couple of years.
I saw bmd in Message #5412 stated that he has discoloration in the bumpers of his Silver TL. I picked mine up on the 18th of this month and have the same thing. I was wondering if this is across the board on the silver? What about the desert mist? Has anyone found any resolution to this issue with Acura?
I have the silver, and after seeing the initial concern regarding the bumpers, I checked mine out very carefully. No problems. What is possible, however, is that because the material of the bumpers is different than the car, that the paint somehow reflects light differently (albeit subtle).
1)Wanted to know what your feelings are on colors combination on the TL i.e. which colors are the most popular (depreciates the least).
It seems from the sales figures (and brochures) that the silver/black is the most popular. It may depreciate less but personally I get daily head turns and wows with my Nighthawk Black/Camel. Get what you like because all the combos are selling pretty well except maybe the green.
2) How do you feel on the Acura Care extended warranty?
NO!!!!That's why you are buying a quality car. In general, ALL extended warantees are a crock and especially if the car is of good quality. Get it if you get the BMW, not for the TL.
Shopping TL, 325i and 05' C230 K sedan...all 3 have their unique selling points and are equally good making it a hard choice in the mid-30k field.
Get what you want but I compared these three (and the G35, 330) and the TL won me over in a landslide. I thought the styling was the best but this is subjective. The interior is consistently viewed as better than those others and the technology you get (DVD-audio, Bluetooth wireless) are unique and useful every day. If you have any interest in a Navigation system, the TL has the best. If you compare performance, they all have a little different feel but perform great. The TL corners like it's on rails and rockets off the line. For my money, it wasn't even close.
On the topic of colors, I asked my dealer here in the South the same question about popularity. Black exteriors typically don't sell well in the South and this is affirmed by the fact that the 3 local dealers ALL have Black w/NAV on the lots for several weeks. He indicated the Red color is weakest in demand while Silver is highest in demand. While the blue seems to sell well on the TL, I've heard rumors that the MDX is no longer made in blue.
In a related article recently in one of the car magazines based on a study from DuPont, here was the results. Grey colors are the fastest growing in popularity.
2003 2002 1. Silver 20.2% 22.8% 2. White 18.4% 15.2% 3. Black 11.6% 12% 4. Grey 11.5% 7% 5. Lgt Brown 8.8% 6.4% 6. Blue 8.5% 10.9% 7. Med. Red 6.9% 6.9%
The fact the bumpers are plastic is exactly what the dealer is citing as the reason for the difference. I find that a cop-out at best. Also, the difference is more than subtle. The rear bumper is actually closer to pewter than the silver of the rest of the car. The front bumper is more closely matched yet still noticebly off hue. The fact that the two bumpers also differ only furthers my argument. Now that I'm able to cite another owner of a silver TL without this problem I'm compelled to pursue a resolution with Acura.
I love the car and my experience with the dealer to this point has been exemplary. I only hope this problem does not spoil what has otherwise been a great car buying experience.
If anyone else has anything to contribute, please do. I will be printing these posts for use as "ammunition" if and when it becomes necessary.
This is common on light colored cars. My body shop says it is caused by the chemicals in the polyurethane bumper leaching into the paint. Not sure why some cars have it more than others - perhaps it has to do with the age of the plastic at the time of painting.
My Solara developed it at about 2 years - cured by re-painting. NOW, I am just beginning to noticed it on my 6 mo. old TL. I will try to get Acura to re-paint when it gets bad enough. This does not belong on a luxury car.
If you've purchased a wood dash kit (or know much about them), can you tell me what retailer/manufacturer you recommend (and which, if any, to avoid), asl well as other helpful hints?
I've searched the forums for info on this, and have gleaned some useful stuff from it, but such a high percentage of the posts were critical of adding wood, they were hard to sift through.
For what it's worth, I have a black/black TL and would like to add a FEW pieces of wood trim (doors, above glove box, maybe some around the shifter, storage compartments, etc). I am hoping to find a manufacturer that offers the kit in something dark (like cherry or dark burl) to keep the wood effect subdued.
Thanks for your kind responses...(grr103 and go_mdx1)
grri03: Actually, I am more inclined towards the TL for the same reasons you have stated :-). Aside from being great value on paper, the V-6 is smooth and gives out great sounds. Some might say its handicapped by its FWD config. but I think that only comes into play if you're driving the extra 1/10th. I find the TL's handling sure-footed, solid and easy (under normal circumstances). Depending on how you load up coming into a corner, I sensed a degree of adjustability mid-corner that I find characterful. There is understeer, but most cars sold (regardless of config, has understeer dialed in for safety so...).
IMHO, the 325i remains a driver's classic (for what it promises it's an arguable good value and quality piece as well) but I fear its getting a little long in the tooth and I hate thought of seeing myself everywhere I go. The I-6 remains a gem. And then there is the concern that the 3er is due for replacement soon.
Normally, I wouldn't consider the C230K, but promises of much needed improvements in the interior, reworked 6-speed tranny coupled with the eager kompressor I-4 and attractive AMG-inspired body pieces seems like fun. I generally don't lean towards badges. Haven't driven the '05's quite yet.
I realize that silver and grey with black interior seems the most popular (a little too popular with other makes and models as well)...amusingly, I was posting the question on colors as I found the green/parchment combo quite attractive...but so does the blue/camel...oh well. :-)
I purchased an anthracite gray/camel interior 2004 TL w/o NAV 1 week ago, and am quite happy with the vehicle. Specifically:
unmatched bang for your buck--good lines, great interior, DVD-A is remarkable, XM is here to stay, 270 hp, FWD (semi snow-belt), room for 4 adults and their stuff for a long weekend, etc...
Believe it or not, I've owned or leased 9 cars in the past 13 years, ranging from an '81 Honda Civic 1500 GL to an '00 BMW M5, and everything in between. Now, for example, understand that the suspension in the TL comes nowhere close to a BMW's; however, the 3 series Bimmer is at least $7-10K more than the TL, and probably not as well equipped. A 5 series equally equipped is over $50K.
I just took the TL to NYC with the wife and another couple, and both myself and the other husband, both motorheads, were truly impressed with the Acura as a package. It is quick, relatively isolated, well-appointed, gets pretty good gas mileage (25 mpg at an average speed of 75 mph with 4 adults and gear), and is $33k OTD!!
No, it's not going to win any climb the mountain races; yes, the suspension is a little floaty at higher speeds; yes, there is a hint of torque steer that becomes more apparent under certain circumstances (e.g. on accelerating through a right turn on rough roadway); yes, the BMW 330i with the ZHP is prettier, handles better, but it's $10k more than the Acura. But if money is an issue, and to most of us it is, one cannot go wrong with the 2004 Acura TL. Enjoy.
I generally agree with your perspective, but have a question or two:
It seems like you favor the TL over the BMW primarily on the price/value. But if you could get a 330i for roughly $1,200 under US invoice or a 545i 6-speed at roughly $2,300 under US invoice, would your evaluation change? Those are the prices I can get if I'm willing to take a little trip to Germany on the ED program. I've negotiated a pretty good deal on a TL 6-speed w/ Navi at $1,000 over invoice ($33,350 w/HPT).
Second, since you formerly had a BMW M5, any withdrawls and any reason you didn't get the TL 6-speed? I would be trading my S2000 and am slightly worried that, after the deal, I will realize that I exchanged a world class sports car for a very good, but not quite world class sedan. It's not as though my old Nissan Maxima 5-speed still isn't about 90% of the driver's car the TL is, albeit without the nice gizmos and interior. How do you feel driving the TL compared to an M5?
Don't know if you heard... but there is a $2400 incentive on all 330 models delivered by the end of June. You may be able to get $1200 under invoice, without making the trip.
Now you've really put me into a tough decision spot!
I thought I had a great deal on a TL 6-speed w/ Mavi & HPT for $33,400. (about $1,000 over invoice).
However, based upon the $2,400 dealer incentive I wasn't previously aware of, I can now buy a brand new 330i 6-speed, sport package, moonroof, xenons for $34,800 ($1,200 under invoice), only $1,400 more than the TL. It doesn't have leather or the nav system, but it does have the BMW handling and performance advantage, plus free service for 4 years/50k miles.
Now this is becoming a tough choice. Thanks for the info.
I had a 1999 Accord in heather mist, parked outside all the time. Within 6 months, I could tell that the paint on the bumpers didn't match the rest of the car.
I asked a local independent body shop that restores Mustangs about it, and he said he encountered the difference more than occasionally because of the poly bumpers.
Hello everyone I have been quoted 34000 for a demo 2004 TL, auto with nav, silver/ebony, rear spoiler, protection package and side moulding. Should i take this car? It has 1400 miles. Is demo car considered a used car? All opinions would be appreciated.
PLEASE BE QUICK AS I HAVE TO RESPOND BY TOMORROW!!!
I'm looking at $33,400 for a brand new 6-speed Nav and HPT. I think 1violinist is being polite, I wouldn't pay a nickel more than $30,500 for it - essentially the same price you could buy a brand new non-nav for, trading the nav system for the 1,400 miles of demo abuse.
If it were a 6-speed, I wouldn't pay anything for it; I prefer to have a clutch that hasn't been tried out by every Tom, Dick and Harry in town.
P.S. What is the "protection package"? Thes TL has a leather interiors and a clear coat paint finish from the factory. I thought reputable dealers stopped trying to sell that snake oil years ago.
Comments
The guys on NPR Car Talk do a newspaper column. The one from a couple weeks ago. A lady taught her daughter to drive a stick on their brand new car. 68 miles, and the clutch is gone.
I'm not suggesting that will happen often, or in this case, but if you don't know what you are doing (i.e: can't tell first from third), then it can happen very quickly.
I love sticks, and the TL is a great car, but I doubt I would buy it that way... but, hey.. that is why it comes both ways.
regards,
kyfdx
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I also saw the "Click and Clack" article - it was a VW New Beetle Turbo. I would think the Acura clutch would be a little more durable, but I do like the suggestion of learning on an older car first. Heck, my 1995 Maxima SE is available to rent for $399.00 for 68 miles!
For the record, one of the smoothest clutches I dr=ove was a 2002 BMW M5 with 400 hp and 369 ft-lbs of torque. I was expecting to lose my fillings, and it was as smooth as silk - easier to modulate in fact than the 540i 6-speed. So high horsepower doesn't need to translate into tough clutches.
You have to scan through the titles but you should find something worth buying. Just remember, this is still a relatively new format so not all albums, current or past, are released on DVD audio. If you don't find what you like on this site, search for others. I've found some to carry a considerable amount more than other sites.
The Acuras sound system also plays regular CD's.
I've done my best to scan the forums to get a sense of the issues with the TL.
So here's my question:
What do you like LEAST about the TL? (I know it's a great car, so asking what you like the most isn't as informative...)
Thanks for your thoughts!
Last night I test drove a 330i sedan 6-speed after test driving the TL 6-speed a second time the night before. The TL 6-speed I ordered arrived at the dealership today and I'm trying to make sure I want to go through with the purchase.
In my opinion, the TL had a nicer interior and a little more elbow room than the tighter, lighter 330i. However, the 330i, notwithstanding giving up about 50 horsepower and 25 ft-lbs to the TL, still felt the quicker of the two, by a noticable margin. And it is a much easier car to "push" as far as smooth shifts at or near redline. The TL is more of a handful to keep pointed in the right direction under hard acceleration. As far as handling, the 330i had a slight edge, with less body roll and tighter steering around corners. The one I test drove did not have the sport package. I suspect that with the sport or performance packages, the difference in favor of the 330i would be even more noticable.
Unfortunately the 330i isn't sufficiently sized to be a replacement for our Nissan Maxima, whereas the TL is. And the 5-series is just too damn funky ugly for me. But I came to appreciate that the TL is not a 3-series beater when it comes to sporty performance. What say you??
Anyone knows comparing to other FWD cars with power, is TL's TS particularly excessive?
BMW330xi (current car): not much wrong with it handling, steering, and acceleration-wise -- a really great drive. The only things that I've grown tired of is the somewhat austere interior, the painfully tight back seat, and the piece-of-crap navigation system.
Acura TL: spectacular interior with tremendous Nav system, stereo, and other gadgets (which I live for). I didn't notice torque steer (though i doubt I'm sufficiently sophisticated enough to detect it if it's subtle -- I sorta thing some drive the TL knowing it's FWD and therefore assume it is there). The main thing I noticed that was different from the 330 is the steering -- thought it was a bit 'loose' in the TL.
BMW 530: okay. I'm fortunate to be in the position of being able to afford a 530, which is nearly double the cost of a TL. I assumed there'd be no contest between the two. The 530 definitely felt more substantial and definitely handled better. BUT, the interior of the 530 just sucks. I know this stuff is all subjective, but I thought it was cheap looking -- especially the cup holder that swings out of the dash. And I pride myself on being a techie, gadget nut. I'm not afraid of technology and assumed the iDrive would not be as bad as everyone says it is. I didn't play with it much (cuz the salesman was afraid of letting me fiddle with it while we were driving), but it's just so totally unnecessary. I LOVE gadgets, but this completely turned me off.
Anyway, hopefully I can give the 6-speed TL a whirl today...
also, since you drive with left hand on manual and right hand on stick, if the torque steer kicks in and jerks the wheel to the right, you really notice the torque steer!
that said, for most driving situations, the torque steer ain't bad and you can get used to it. if you drive like an F1 racer though, prolly the TL is not the car for you.
There was just this feelilng of ergonomic wrongness and cheapness which I can't really put well into words that I didn't like about the 5.
Bodble, I only like the new 5 in dark colors too. It just looks fat in lighter colors. I've never seen a car shape look so different in different colors.
Regarding "torque steer" and the other undesireable results of FWD setups (front heavy weight balance, less planted in cornering), I do NOT think you need to have an F1 driving style to find these somewhat objectionable. There is not, to my knowledge, a $45k+ luxury sedan that is FWD. Some AWD, but mostly RWD. Furthermore, it was Acura that decided to endow the TL with 270 horsepower and a 6-speed with low profile tires and Brembo brakes for 2004. I would suggest that if you want to drive the TL like your grandmother's Camry, you probably won't notice the torque steer or handling issues. But in that case, you should probably buy the Camry and save $10k+. As best I can tell, Acura wanted to position the TL against the 330i, so that's what I am using to compare against.
P.S. argelius - The 530i is nearly double the cost of the TL?? Either you are planning on getting a spectacluar deal on the TL or you are being abused by your BMW dealer. The price I have negotiated on the 2004 TL 6-speed Navigation with HPT is $33,400. The price I could get a 530i 6-speed with sport package and various goodies is under $48,000 through European Delivery, about $51k stateside. The 545i 6-speed is the liklier way I swould go, at about a $8k premium to those figures. Which is still well less than double the price on the TL.
Please, everyone post their test drive results before I pull the trigger or throw away a great deal.
While I didn't spend tons of time in the car, for my "gut" immediately told me this wasn't a car for me (for all of those intangible, difficult-to-describe reasons..) However, as for the things I *can* put my finger on...
- the way the dash is laid out so horizontally across the interior, without the usual slight bend toward the driver
- the minimalist approach of having so few knobs, dials, buttons be replaced by the iDrive. I *like* buttons! (for aesthetic and functional reasons)
- the turn signal stalk: when you activate the stubby little thing it immediately returns to its resting position, so it doesn't jump back to center once you complete the turn like normal turn signals do. Don't know why they decided they needed to fix something that wasn't a problem
Those are the things that immediately come to mind. I wont re-elaborate on my reaction to the iDrive. I really thought I was going to like it (being a supreme gadget head), but I found it just annoying and unnecessary...
The TL competes well with the 330, but you'll save about $10k when a 330 is equipped like the TL. Unless you are a sports car enthusiast and drive like one everyday (not possible if you live or work in the city), the incremental handling capability of the 330 is, IMHO, not worth the extra money, not to mention the roomier interior of the TL, its great Nav and sound system, as well as other cool gadgets.
IMO, the TL is the best value out there for an entry level luxury car that comes with gobs of power and sporty inclinations, notwithstanding its FWD and torque steer.
Has anyone had a similar issue?
rubbing against itself in the newer models, but luckily I love
to listen to the stereo all the time
The "new" appearance and the I-drive are surely hurting sales and future values. In addition, Consumer Reports has removed them from the Recommended list due to increasing problems.
NO, the TL is not QUITE a 5-series in ride and handling, but just wait a couple of years.
2) How do you feel on the Acura Care extended warranty?
Shopping TL, 325i and 05' C230 K sedan...all 3 have their unique selling points and are equally good making it a hard choice in the mid-30k field.
It seems from the sales figures (and brochures) that the silver/black is the most popular. It may depreciate less but personally I get daily head turns and wows with my Nighthawk Black/Camel. Get what you like because all the combos are selling pretty well except maybe the green.
2) How do you feel on the Acura Care extended warranty?
NO!!!!That's why you are buying a quality car. In general, ALL extended warantees are a crock and especially if the car is of good quality. Get it if you get the BMW, not for the TL.
Shopping TL, 325i and 05' C230 K sedan...all 3 have their unique selling points and are equally good making it a hard choice in the mid-30k field.
Get what you want but I compared these three (and the G35, 330) and the TL won me over in a landslide. I thought the styling was the best but this is subjective. The interior is consistently viewed as better than those others and the technology you get (DVD-audio, Bluetooth wireless) are unique and useful every day. If you have any interest in a Navigation system, the TL has the best. If you compare performance, they all have a little different feel but perform great. The TL corners like it's on rails and rockets off the line. For my money, it wasn't even close.
In a related article recently in one of the car magazines based on a study from DuPont, here was the results. Grey colors are the fastest growing in popularity.
2003 2002
1. Silver 20.2% 22.8%
2. White 18.4% 15.2%
3. Black 11.6% 12%
4. Grey 11.5% 7%
5. Lgt Brown 8.8% 6.4%
6. Blue 8.5% 10.9%
7. Med. Red 6.9% 6.9%
I love the car and my experience with the dealer to this point has been exemplary. I only hope this problem does not spoil what has otherwise been a great car buying experience.
If anyone else has anything to contribute, please do. I will be printing these posts for use as "ammunition" if and when it becomes necessary.
My Solara developed it at about 2 years - cured by re-painting. NOW, I am just beginning to noticed it on my 6 mo. old TL. I will try to get Acura to re-paint when it gets bad enough. This does not belong on a luxury car.
I've searched the forums for info on this, and have gleaned some useful stuff from it, but such a high percentage of the posts were critical of adding wood, they were hard to sift through.
For what it's worth, I have a black/black TL and would like to add a FEW pieces of wood trim (doors, above glove box, maybe some around the shifter, storage compartments, etc). I am hoping to find a manufacturer that offers the kit in something dark (like cherry or dark burl) to keep the wood effect subdued.
Thanks!
grri03: Actually, I am more inclined towards the TL for the same reasons you have stated :-). Aside from being great value on paper, the V-6 is smooth and gives out great sounds. Some might say its handicapped by its FWD config. but I think that only comes into play if you're driving the extra 1/10th. I find the TL's handling sure-footed, solid and easy (under normal circumstances). Depending on how you load up coming into a corner, I sensed a degree of adjustability mid-corner that I find characterful. There is understeer, but most cars sold (regardless of config, has understeer dialed in for safety so...).
IMHO, the 325i remains a driver's classic (for what it promises it's an arguable good value and quality piece as well) but I fear its getting a little long in the tooth and I hate thought of seeing myself everywhere I go. The I-6 remains a gem. And then there is the concern that the 3er is due for replacement soon.
Normally, I wouldn't consider the C230K, but promises of much needed improvements in the interior, reworked 6-speed tranny coupled with the eager kompressor I-4 and attractive AMG-inspired body pieces seems like fun. I generally don't lean towards badges. Haven't driven the '05's quite yet.
I realize that silver and grey with black interior seems the most popular (a little too popular with other makes and models as well)...amusingly, I was posting the question on colors as I found the green/parchment combo quite attractive...but so does the blue/camel...oh well. :-)
If you have a Bluetooth phone:
[1] What model?
[2] What carrier?
[3] How well does it work with your TL?
Thanks!
unmatched bang for your buck--good lines, great interior, DVD-A is remarkable, XM is here to stay, 270 hp, FWD (semi snow-belt), room for 4 adults and their stuff for a long weekend, etc...
Believe it or not, I've owned or leased 9 cars in the past 13 years, ranging from an '81 Honda Civic 1500 GL to an '00 BMW M5, and everything in between. Now, for example, understand that the suspension in the TL comes nowhere close to a BMW's; however, the 3 series Bimmer is at least $7-10K more than the TL, and probably not as well equipped. A 5 series equally equipped is over $50K.
I just took the TL to NYC with the wife and another couple, and both myself and the other husband, both motorheads, were truly impressed with the Acura as a package. It is quick, relatively isolated, well-appointed, gets pretty good gas mileage (25 mpg at an average speed of 75 mph with 4 adults and gear), and is $33k OTD!!
No, it's not going to win any climb the mountain races; yes, the suspension is a little floaty at higher speeds; yes, there is a hint of torque steer that becomes more apparent under certain circumstances (e.g. on accelerating through a right turn on rough roadway); yes, the BMW 330i with the ZHP is prettier, handles better, but it's $10k more than the Acura. But if money is an issue, and to most of us it is, one cannot go wrong with the 2004 Acura TL. Enjoy.
It seems like you favor the TL over the BMW primarily on the price/value. But if you could get a 330i for roughly $1,200 under US invoice or a 545i 6-speed at roughly $2,300 under US invoice, would your evaluation change? Those are the prices I can get if I'm willing to take a little trip to Germany on the ED program. I've negotiated a pretty good deal on a TL 6-speed w/ Navi at $1,000 over invoice ($33,350 w/HPT).
Second, since you formerly had a BMW M5, any withdrawls and any reason you didn't get the TL 6-speed? I would be trading my S2000 and am slightly worried that, after the deal, I will realize that I exchanged a world class sports car for a very good, but not quite world class sedan. It's not as though my old Nissan Maxima 5-speed still isn't about 90% of the driver's car the TL is, albeit without the nice gizmos and interior. How do you feel driving the TL compared to an M5?
regards,
kyfdx
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I thought I had a great deal on a TL 6-speed w/ Mavi & HPT for $33,400. (about $1,000 over invoice).
However, based upon the $2,400 dealer incentive I wasn't previously aware of, I can now buy a brand new 330i 6-speed, sport package, moonroof, xenons for $34,800 ($1,200 under invoice), only $1,400 more than the TL. It doesn't have leather or the nav system, but it does have the BMW handling and performance advantage, plus free service for 4 years/50k miles.
Now this is becoming a tough choice. Thanks for the info.
I asked a local independent body shop that restores Mustangs about it, and he said he encountered the difference more than occasionally because of the poly bumpers.
I have been quoted 34000 for a demo 2004 TL, auto with nav, silver/ebony, rear spoiler, protection package and side moulding. Should i take this car? It has 1400 miles. Is demo car considered a used car?
All opinions would be appreciated.
PLEASE BE QUICK AS I HAVE TO RESPOND BY TOMORROW!!!
IMO, demo car is considered an ABUSED car! I wouldn't pay more than $32k for it.
If it were a 6-speed, I wouldn't pay anything for it; I prefer to have a clutch that hasn't been tried out by every Tom, Dick and Harry in town.
P.S. What is the "protection package"? Thes TL has a leather interiors and a clear coat paint finish from the factory. I thought reputable dealers stopped trying to sell that snake oil years ago.