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However, the last sentence of your post seems to contradict (or at least cast doubt upon) the prior statements. To wit: how and why are "marketing initiatives" related to "performance claims" and "premium fuel statements"? Also, how and why would the use of premium or regular gas affect (or require) different designs to retard knocks and/or engine damage? Kindly clarify. Thanks.
Also, why are you using combined systems - miles per imperial gallon -- instead of km per imperial gallon? or km per liter :-) What is the real conversion factor when you compare miles per gallon against miles per imperial gallon?
Newer cars have knock sensors that detect this and retard the timing so the spark plug can detonate the air/fuel mixture before it spontaneously explodes on it's own. So you're safe using regular but the engine is not at it's most efficient operation.
Whether and how much this affects performance and mileage will vary by vehicle/by engine. Some may have a noticeable change and some may not. I don't think you can say that just because one vehicle is ok that all vehicles will be.
I look at it this way - at the very least you'll lose some power. Worst case you lose fuel economy and actually spend more to use regular than premium or if it actually knocks you could destroy the engine.
The cost difference is around $3 per week on average, or $150 per year. Is it worth the risk to save $150/yr on a $35K vehicle? Not to me. YMMV.
Final drive... this does favor your TL. But, in the case of the S2000, I think the weight difference is so much less, that it is significant. Also, even though it makes 240 HP at its peak, it is a much more efficient engine at speed, due to its small displacement..
Aerodynamics... Just visually, your Maxima seems much smaller than the TL, creating less wind resistance.. The S2000..well, speaks for itself.
Rolling resistance: Even though the Honda has "sticky tires", the contact patch is smaller than your TL, and I'm guessing your Maxima's tires are even smaller than that.. Speaking of tires, wider tires have a large effect on aerodynamics as well.. If you compare two models of the same car (MINI Cooper and Mini Cooper S, for example), the model with the bigger tires will have a higher co-efficient of drag.
I'm guessing that as pretty as the TL is to look at, it isn't as aerodynamic as it would appear.
Or.. I'm completely wrong, and it is the weight and horsepower..LOL
regards,
kyfdx
Summary: I think it is the big fat tires.
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Also, aerodynamics really aren't much of a consideration in mixed driving. And in mixed driving, my TL is even further off of what I would have expected based upon the EPA ratings of 20/30.
No, I think it's simply that the TL engine is not particularly fuel efficient for it's displacement. The 3.2 liter engine is less than 10% larger than the Maxima in displacement, but can barely beat the new 545i 4.4 liter V8 (40% larger) in actual fuel efficiency.
It may have something to do with the 6-speed manual transmission as well, since I have friends that have an automatic TL and the fuel efficiency is a bit better.
Does that apply to Accord's engine which, by its manual, is said to use regular only. Is Accord's engine fundamentally different from TL's, or it's more like Accord's published performance and MPG is based on regular, while TL's is based on premium?
Based on what I have been reading in other posts and the car trade journals, Acura's new NAV system will just be in the RL. Also, the 2005 MDX and Odyssey will also be getting the new 700 voice recognition IBM ViaVoice system.
27-29 seems very good for a 270hp auto going 75mph.
I don't think you have a problem with your car (don't take my word for it). I would suspect that if you had some type of problem that affects mileage it would affect both city and highway.
Unless you're driving it really hard around town...or your clutch is slipping or something like that.
Still seems pretty good for highway. Although others such as BMW do get very good mileage, especially for the performance; even Audi's new 3.2 in the new A4 is supposed to get 25 mpg for an average fuel consumption.
Guess a visit to the dealer is needed.
The TL and Accord engines ARE fundamentally different. The Accord engine is a 3.0 liter V6 that has been around several years. The TL's is a 3.2 liter engine that has been revised even from last year. However, you could uyse your example for the Pilot / MDX which use essentially the same engine, but through exhaust system tweaks and use of premium gas, the 2005 MDX is rated at 15 more more horsepower (but hardly any torque).
As best I can tell, the more sophisticated the engine design and the higher the RPM's to achieve peak horsepower, the more dangerous it would be to use regular gas. I'm not sure who indicated BMW only "recommends" premium gas. I read awhile back that the M3's engine computer can track and store octane levels and, simultaneously, engine rpms. I read that the use of low octane gas in combination of running the engine to redline is grounds for BMW to void the warranty. The use of regular gas in an emergency is permitted, but only for engine speeds well below the 8,000 rpm redline. I could question who would be stupid enough to put regular gas in a high performance $50 vehilce like the M3, but then again, I could pose the same question for the $32k TL 6-speed. My guess is the automatic might force earlier shifts on regular gas.
mdhauke,
I'm not sure where you got the idea that using cruise control uses more gas? From what I've read and my personal experience, that's absolutely not true and, in fact, it is MORE fuel efficient to use cruise control on everything but very hilly conditions. For example, if you are trying maintain an average speed of 70 mph, it's more efficient to maintain 70 than vary between 60 and 80. Wind resistence goes up with the square of the speed, so you lose more efficiency going 80 than you gain when you are only going 60. In the case of my Honda S2000, all of my 32+/- mpg highway tankfuls were using cruise. The best I ever got not using cruise control was under 30 (EPA highway rating of 26).
go_mdx1
My understanding is that the "new" Navigation system in the RL isn't a new system, just software that's been programmed to understand more voice commands and overlay traffic information on the display screen. But the basic system is the same as the TL. To me, one of the biggest advantages the TL system currently has is the high resolution 8" screen, compared to the 6.5" screen that is standard in a lot of the competition, including Mercedes, BMW, Volvo, Nissan and Porsche.
I drive a hgiway route from DC to northwestern PA using the PA turnpike or MD route 68, both of which have a fair number of Appalachian hills. The elevation ranges between 100 feet to 3,400 feet above sea level and some grades are in the range of 7-8%. I have never had the cruise control try to brake the car going downhill. The rolling and wind resistance at 70-75 mph still requires some nominal amount of throttle input to maintain that speed on the downhills. On the uphills, all of my vehicles have sufficient power that they do not slow down or require downshifting the manual transmission.
What would you do under these conditions, accelerate to 100 downhill and slow down to 40 uphill?? I still contend that that would result in greater fuel use, but you may not live to prove me right or wrong.
It may be anecdotal, but when I had a previous Acura Integra that lost it's cruise control function, my highway mileage dropped from around 32 to under 30. I found it difficult to maintain a steady speed over a 300+ mile drive. And, as a result, I'd have to push it to 5+ mph higher than I wanted to average, to offset the unintended slowdowns. That is, essentially, the same argument that was made by Click and Clack. You burn more fuel at 75 mph than you save at 65 compared to maintaining a constant 70 mph.
Isn't TL's manual saying TL only requires regular but recommends premium for better performance? Can that be translated to ok, I won't knock you if you just feed me regular, but I won't run as hard either?
If the TL says it's ok to run regular but premium will yield better performance, then that means they've probably optimized it on regular but the computer has the ability to advance the timing for even better performance. Not all cars are designed this way and can't take advantage of higher octane. And some cars designed to use premium will run like a dog on regular. It all depends on the engine design and tuning.
Trip Computer showed Average speed 31 mph on mixed City/Hwy driving with gas consumption of 24 mpg (despite my tendency for a heavy foot whenever someone challenges off the lights).
Fortunately no rattles or squeaks but two minor glitches which were fixed at the Ist oil change. 1) Keyfob lost memory (2) Rear trunk latch needed adjustment.
Overall I am extremely happy with a $33k vehicle which is so much fun to drive and has the luxury of a 50k car! Only thing which I could fault is the rear trunk lid which feels flimsy compared to the nice solid feel of the doors.
For me, I still can't get away from the miles per gallon concept. And for whatever reason, the Canadian government does not list gas mileage as miles per gallon, or KM per imperial gallon. It quotes gas consumption as "litres used per 100 KM". I just can't do the mental gymnastics on that!
US gallon = 3.87541 litres
US:Imperial = 5:6
Imperial/US = 1.2
For reference, and calculated to 2 sig figs:
L/100km = miles/CDN = miles/US
..5.0..................56................47
..6.0..................47................39
..7.0..................40................34
..8.0..................35................29
..9.0..................31................26
..10...................28................24
..11...................26................21
..12...................24................20
..13...................22................18
..14...................20................17
..15...................19................16
..16...................18................15
..17...................17................14
..18...................16................13
The major issue; given the almost immeasurable performance variance, in a real world setting, do you ever use the full envelope of engine capability in the cars? Further, the interviewed experts were very clear that there is simply no mpg. variance found when using regular in their testing.
As someone who drives 35,000 miles per year, and has operated various "high performance" powered cars with absolutely no negatives, I see no reason to spend an extra $.20 per gallon.
It's possible that some cars have virtually no discernable difference in performance or mpg but that does not mean it's universally true.
If you saw no difference in power or mileage going from premium to regular then I'd submit that the car was tuned for regular all along and using premium wasn't necessary in the first place. I can't imagine an automaker doing that but I guess it's possible.
http://www.cars.com/carsapp/myrtleb/?srv=parser&act=display&a- mp;tf=/features/truthabout/gas/todaysgas1.tmpl
Therefore, when premium gas is specified, there has to be a real and tangible reason for it.
http://www.dynospotracing.com/octane.htm
highway mileage - 89 octane - 18 mpg
93 octane - 21 mpg
I saw similar numbers from a Lincoln LS owner who used 87 instead of 91. About a 15% decrease in mileage.
As always and especially in this case, YMMV.
Fuel is incredibly cheap in the U.S. I can't really see worrying about a few cents on the gallon when filling a car that cost $32K and that gets almost 30 to the gallon on a trip.
I'm regularly surprised (oxymoron) that people question what is written in their manual. The manual was written with the intention that people would follow it. If using regular fuel is a determining factor when purchasing an automobile, then I'd definitely review the manual before I purchased it.
I would not try to install a cheaper or lower quality oil filter, or air filter, or oil or anything. I would get the best price on the specifications listed.
I purchased an APS camera a few years ago. When I did I knew that the film would cost more because it was engineered that way. I always buy the 'quality' film on sale and in bulk, but I do not think "hey, could I squeeze 35mm in here, would it be ok".
Yes you could put regular fuel in a car that specifies premium fuel. You could also put on square tires...it's your car and your repair bill.
It isn't quite as nice, but I'd get an Accord EX-V6 with nav, save $8K and sleep easy..
regards,
kyfdx
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As far as being 300 miles away from a dealer and needing warranty work, at least you aren't buying an Alfa Romeo. I would check with Acura on their policy of reimbursing repairs done by Honda. I suspect that they may be more easily accomodating given your circumstances.
And... what is the difference between the 2005 models and the 2004 models?
Thanks.
Quoc
what do you think the brake pads are made of when they say they have upgraded brake pads for the
A-spec edition cars ? Do you know if regular TLs can be upgraded with the same Brembo brakes thats found on your TL ? Any idea how much it costs ?
We got the auto cause we have small kids and lots of cell phone calls...hence the need for the navi and bluetooth. Both wife and I drive manual....and now I kinda wish we had gotten the manual with navi....oh well...
have fun all ...
I haven't driven a TL automatic enough to know if the 6-speed Brembo brakes are that much better. One thing's for sure, they generate a lot of brake dust. I now sympathize with BMW owners that always need to clean their wheels. My rears always look bright and shiny, while my fronts look like they just emerged from a coal mine if I don't wash them weekly.
P.S. Best brakes I ever had were on my former S2000 and I don't think they were Brembos - and they DIDN'T generate hardly any brake dust.
"Gasoline: Premium Unleaded Gasoline, pump octane number of 91 or higher."
In addition, the Gasoline Type section on page 164 states: "Your Acura is designed to operate on unleaded gasoline with a pump octane number of 91 or higher. Use of a lower octane gasoline can cause occasional metallic knocking noises in the engine and will result in decreased engine performance."
Interestingly, with regard to knock in aircraft piston engines, the FAA states in its flight training manual: "Tests have proven that pressures in excess of 4,000 PSI are reached during detonation. Since these pressures are virtually instantaneous, the effect on the piston is the equivalent to a sharp blow with a sledge hammer. This shattering force is what is sometimes heard in an automobile as it is accelerated rapidly.... This form of combustion causes a definite loss of power, engine overheating, preignition, and if allowed to continue, physical damage to the engine."
Just guessing, though..
kyfdx
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But, I asked around to find places that were frequented by luxury car owners. I had two recommended to me... They aren't in the greatest neighborhoods, but their attention to detail is phenomenal.. About half the worth of an auto-wash is the drying and touch-up work after the car comes out..
After the first time I spent over an hour just cleaining my wife's alloys, I tried the recommended auto-wash.. It was worth the $13, just to get the wheels clean...
regards,
kyfdx
(not as anal as some people)
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I would still love to see a white exterior with the ebony/black interior.
Also, the gray interior would look a lot better if it was not two-toned (a mixture of black and gray on the dash and door panels. I thing gray seats/carpet with black trim would look nice.