Sooooo true laurasdada, That's why I haven't pulled the trigger on the G35 coupe. I have become very interested in MB. I too love the idea of a hard-top convertible, and the MB styling can't be beat. My wife has a "practicle" TL, so I just my go for a stylish MB that isn't very reliable, who cares! :P
Not sure when the X3 gets the new engine...it won't be this Fall.. But, the new '06 will have body color bumpers... If you get the Sport package, it includes body color side sills, etc.. I haven't seen a picture to see if that is a good look, though..
Nick... I know you are looking at a G35...which is based on the Nissan Z. I don't know anything about the Z. Could you give me an idea how does the G35 compare to the Z...other than the Z is a two seater? Is it worthy of consideration?
Wow...seems like all those that responded to what will be the next vehicle after the current TL...have very similar tastes. Pretty much the same cars mentioned. We'll probably meet up on other boards in the future.
A white TL being plane?... don't think so... I actually thought the same about white cars in general, but then saw the TL and it looks really nice in white, and with parchment interior. I had a tough time deciding on colors...between either silver, white or anthracite, I liked all 3, but decided on silver because it had a sportier look with ebony interirors. White is nice, but kind of had the idea it would look like an old timer's car since it looks very elegant with parchment interior.... thought about white with quartz, but didn't like it.
I did considered the Z at some point, but didn't really like it because it didn't felt comfortable inside...you pretty much sit on the floor, but it does drive pretty well, although I still like the previous Z model much more. But that would fall on the sports car category, which is not the case of the TL.
I like the white very much, but it was my wife's comment about a "plane white car." Like the black, I agree that the white is very elegant. But my wife chose silver for the same reason, more sporty and the ebony interior.
$6.42/mth for XM I guess its fine, especially if the stations you listen to are worth it. But I wouldn't pay extra money to listen to Howard for instance. One positive thing I've noticed about XM is that the sound quality is pretty good, but I'm still not paying for it.... I think I will go for the DVD-A as stated previously. Yeah, I used to live in San Diego, and stations were pretty bad there to.
Well as far as quality, that's why I'm definetely avoiding domestic cars... after owning a pontiac and a dodge caravan, I learned to avoid gmc cars at all. The TL has very good quality in all aspects. The dodge caravan had a mitsubishi engine which was still working great after 13 years, but couldn't say the same about the rest of the car. In terms of the TL I'm more sure in that it will be reliable for a long time, and break down costs will be few if any... I also have a 14 yr old nissan pulsar that is running great and have never taken to the shop.
So you also agree that San Diego has pretty bad radio stations. I say the best radio stations I heard were in Cleveland. But that was when I was a road warror.
Yeah I used to listen at star 100.7 and 94.5 fm in San Diego.... now I thought 100.7 was to smoochy sometimes, and would get me on my nerves, but yep, not many radio stations to choose from there....
wow so star 100.7 is gone...are the dj's gone to?? maybe there might be some progress there!...I always thought it was one of those stations where they would spend half the day chitt chatting and repeating the same songs over and over. XM radio does have that situation going on as well in some stations, but some others are good. But I like the idea of getting a DVD burner and burn some songs on DVD-A's... In terms of software, I have Nero 6.0 and has a feature for burning songs into DVD-A's.... I plan to transfer mp3 songs into the DVD-A, but don't know how different will it sound on a DVD-A compared to a CD.
Delmar & Frisco, here's my take on the Z, based on borrowing my father-in-law's a couple of times - I never drove a G35 coupe, so I can't compare the 2:
The Z is an absolute performance machine!!! Accelerates great throughout the rpm band in any gear, seat is comfortable and holds you in during cornering (I drove a convertable with special mesh seat inserts), and holds the road like glue. You feel EVERY SINGLE modulation in the road, so if it's gonna be your commuter vehicle, pay close attention tot he road conditions before buying. Personally, it's too rough for me to take on my daily commute.
The interior is cool, not fancy. Dial vents (you know - circular?), auto a/c (was probably an option - I think there's a lot of add=ons available to the base model), all plastic with some metal trim. No wood. Places to put your stuff is maximized by having 2 compartments behind your inside shoulder. All-in-all, it's a utilitarian look, not luxury, but not cheap-looking either, as all the plastic surfaces are patterned in a tough-looking way (not marbled like most cars - more of like the small, sharp bumps on the TLs dash). I didn't do a complete check for all compartments, but I'd expect it to have enough, but no extra room.
This might be a characteristic of the convertable only, but the trunk was so small, it gave you directions on how to pack a set of golf clubs!
I say the best radio stations I heard were in Cleveland. But that was when I was a road warror.
How long ago was that? :confuse: The state of radio in Cleveland is poor (like many things in Cleveland now). WMMS (100.7) was one of the best in the nation, but not anymore. 98.5 (WNCX) classic rock is ok. Since Clear Channel bought WMMS and several others here, it's gone way downhill.
The morning show on 105.7 is very good though. It's been nominated (again) for a (national) Marconi award.
ok...Pat is right....but my Cleveland experience was....oh 6 years ago?
XM is the way to go if you want to mix it up with CDs and MP3s. However...I say the Napster to Go subscription where you can hold as many songs in a MP3player is the ultimate jukebox. And the cost is comparable to the XM subscription.
And I posted a link somewhere on the TL boards on how to directly hook up the MP3 player to the existing TL system.... That is definitely the way to go. (Ok Pat...see...something about the TL)
Thanks for the info on the Z. Sounds like it is a pure performance machine. Hmmm...might have to look at that. BTW...now my wife is talking about doing the Porsche Cayman instead of the SLK.
I don't know a thing about it other than my wife saw some article at B&N. What can I say....my wife glances at some of the auto mags instead of Good Housekeeping mag. That is why I married her...a good gal.
I'd still vote for the SLK. The retractible hardtop really makes it 2 cars in one. And the elongated hind-quarter in the Cayman makes it look slightly awkward. But I suppose one could argue that the Cayman is a poor-man's (or poor-woman's) 911, as the SLK is a poor-man's SL! :P
I hate to be a hard-you-know-what, but if we're not going to talk about the TL, I really do need to close this discussion as much as I don't want to. :sick:
And just to be clear - an otherwise off-topic post that manages to squeeze in a TL reference to pretend to be topical doesn't count ...
I believe your recollection is accurate - the switch to FWD stemmed from improved traction (only trucks had 4 wheel drive, and there wasn't a category called S-U-V) and I think better gas mileage, too. Now that traction control and other technologies held cars hold the road, Nissan has wholeheartedly switched back to RWD to separate their luxury from economy models. I think Toyota copied Nissan, but Honda is standing firm.
For what it's worth, my father noticed significantly more torque steer in an AT Nissan Maxima than in my MT TL. Wonder what helps the TL deal with it...
Why does the MT TL have torque steer while the AT TL does not? That is what I don't get. Is it because of the level and increased amount of torque in a MT TL ? At what speed and what circumstances does that happen?
The AT does have torque steer from my understanding just not as noticeable. Those with more knowledge in torque steer help me out: MT TL's torque steer is more apparant because you have more control of the RPMs so you reach the highest level of torque (at higher RPMs) easier in a MT, especially in first gear where torque steer is the most apparent. Torque steer is also more noticeable when "flooring it" in first gear in a turn. I think the different gearing between the AT and MT plays a role too - anyone else can explain? :confuse:
All-weather traction was one reason for the proliferation of FWD back in the late-70s and early 80s. The other reason was space utilization. As you recall, there was a move to smaller cars at that time. And FWD, with the common east-west engine placement, and the elimination of the drive-shaft, offered better passenger-room configuration. I think the space issue is not as big a factor now, with cars getting bigger and bigger. And, to some degree, the advent of various electronic traction nannies has also diminished, but not eliminate, the traction advantage of FWD. I think that's why we are seeing the migration back toward RWD.
Delmar, I think Yakuza's explanation is right - I'll just restate it in my words in case that helps:
Torque steer is created from the "suddenness" of the accelleration. If you accellerate slowly and consistently, you won't have torque steer, but once you go for immediate, sudden acceleration, the tires can't handle the sterring and the power simultaneously.
It's easier to get that sudden accelleration with a MT - if I want a quick start, I press the accelerator while in neutral so when I engage I'm already at 3k rpms. Only way to do this on an AT is to ride the brake or accelerate in neutral and then flick the gearshift into drive, which can damage an AT tranny.
That makes sense that the acceleration rush would create some torque steer. I now understand. Guess I haven't experienced it yet. Or maybe because I have still been babying my TL.
I don't know....it is rather odd...but when I had those G35 sedan loaners...I thought it cornered weird until I had the version with the AWD. Maybe it was me (it was probably me).
I hope I get a TL loaner one day when I bring my car in for service...so I can test for torque steer. Watch...I probably will get 10mpg with all the flooring exercises.
So with the evolution of traction control brings the revitalization of RWD?
I still think that the auto tranny only in the IS350 is going to be an issue...somehow I sense that after playing around with my sequential shifter. Why oh why did they do that. And why do you all think the TL has sequential shifters...and how many auto tranny persons really use it...(Nick of course is banning his wife from its use).
Torque steer is lesser on automatic transmissions because of the torque converter.
Torque steer comes about when one drive shaft is wound more tightly than the other. This happens on many front wheel drive cars when the drive shafts aren't of equal length and for other reasons too. (The TL has equal length drive shafts though.)
They don't twist much differently when the amount of power they are transferring builds slowly. The torque converter makes the power get to the drive shafts in a much more "mushy" fashion, so it is never applied all at once they way it is when you let off a clutch. And so there is more torque steer in a manual, because the torque winds up much more quickly.
"So with the evolution of traction control brings the revitalization of RWD?"
I think it is one factor, yes. Perhaps not a major factor, but a factor nonetheless.
And as I mentioned, the reduced need for optimal interior space is another factor. Plus, automotive trends, like fashion trends, go in cycles. It's RWD's turn in the rotation.
Re the pendulum change from FWD to RWD, I think a major factor is Nissan's decision to differentiate the Inifiniti from Nissan based on platform. Now Honda & the TL are in a bit of the bind - create/change to RWD at great expense (I assume) to be a follower of Nissan, or stick to its guns for as long as the TL remains a hot seller. I wish Honda was more like Toyota in Toyota's view of "we might not be the most inovative company, but we'll at least copy ideas and make them better than anyone else has done." I think that's what Toyota did with the top-of-the-lin Lexus, SC convertible, Camry (I think their goal was a steady, comfortable sedan) and Sienna, and what they tried with the Supra, Celica and IS.
My understanding is that BMW and, at least, the sportier MBs have always been RWD, but the Japanese cars have always been viewed as the "logical" choice, whereas their German counterparts were for those who made decisions with their hearts (or wallets). Actually, here's how I think the change came about (admittedly, some of my ordering might be off - I'm not a historian):
1. people started forgetting about the 70s oil crisis and became more concerned with cars being fun & exciting over logical and useful (I think the rise of the SUV is a strong indicator of this) 2. Mazda created a whole new segment with its Miata - low-end sportscars for those who can't afford the major sportscars (911, Corvette, etc) 3. Nissan, Honda and then Toyota got into that mix with the 350Z, S2000 & I forget the Toyota one that was more like the Miata (I don't really know how the Toyota Supra & its demise plays in all of this). Porsche followed with the Boxter, and Audi with the TT. 4. With these cars, people were now torn between useful sedans and these fun cars 5. Subaru & Mitsubishi developed street legal racecars and now people were really torn; 6. Nissan and Mazda targetted these folks with the redesigned Altima and Mazda Protege Speed and now the 6. Honda, to a lesser extent, makes sure to keep its Accord just a bit more sporty than the Camry. MB came out with a lower end sedan (forget the label) and VW & Volvo seem to be trying to create an entry-level almost luxury sport-sedan segment with the S40/Passat. 7. Nissan had the brilliant idea to dress up an Altima, put it on a Z drivetrain, and label it as an Infiniti. Now you've got a sports sedan with RWD.
I don't know why Honda hasn't countered by stretching it's NSX platform or S2000 platform.
Delmar, you ask And why do you all think the TL has sequential shifters I believe part of the lower-end sports car (Boxter, Miata, etc)/sports-sedan craze is that makers are targetting the cars to individuals who like to think of themselves as the ultimate sports-enthusiasts, but aren't. THat and the fact that fewer and fewer people are learning to drive MT means that cars need to find a middle ground. The sportshifts, manumatics or whatever they are called is a way for AT drivers to feel som more control and it makes for good marketting.
I'm sure if you did a survey, those kinds of features are only used as a change of pace, or to downshift w/o using your brake.
My local dealer said that internet/discount pricing only applies to 2005's. And that no discounts will be given on 2006's for the first 3-4 months. I don't know whether that's true or not - but I guess if they can sell the new ones at MSRP, they don't have to discount if they don't want to.
I'm in the same boat. Would sure like the ~$31,500 on a auto/nav TL, but the new 2006's would be nice, too, but maybe not worth paying MSRP.
I just drove two new 2005 TLs (AT w/out NAV) and felt noticable vibration coming through my seat and to a lesser extent in the steering wheel. The neophyte rep checked with the sales mgr and came back saying the vibration is due to flat spots on new performance tires and that this will go away.
I've been driving a 2003 TL (not Sport) for the past two years without any vibration.
I have a 2005 w NAV and do not notice vibration from the tires. However, the cars with NAV are equipped with Michelins while non-NAV TL's have another brand (can't remember what it is but they have been discussed in this forum). A co-worker of mine just bought a non-NAV TL and when I rode in his car I did notice that the ride was not as smooth (or maybe it was just my imagination). I would suggest that you test drive a car with NAV to see if you notice any difference.
and how many auto tranny persons really use it...(Nick of course is banning his wife from its use).
LOL
I am sure the sequential shifters is full of safe guards prevent people like me, and my wife, from messing up the tranny. When did sequential shifters enter the market?
I think FWD is supposed to be more efficient in terms of engine performance than RWD... besides, isn't it better to pull than push??...that in terms of weight and gas savings.
The tranny. Is it the original, or has it been replaced? Can they confirm whether the 7-yr. extended warranty on the tranny is applicable for your car?
I have a 04 TL with 25,000 miles. Original tires were OEM Bridgestone HPT (High Performance Tires) that I replaced with Pirelli PNero Zero M&S.
Both new and old set of tires suffer from “flat spotting” that are very noticeable until the tires warm up (2-3 miles), especially on cold days or after sitting for 2-3 days.
I am very willing to live with the flat-spotting as a trade off for the high performance tires.
Good question, I don't know, maybe an engineer can clear this up. I hear that torque steer is the major draw back of a FWD with a MT, but no so with an AT. I have been told by snow birds that they prefer the FWD. But I live in San Francisco that gets snow every 30 years. :P
I say understeer is the biggest drawback of a FWD car (if we are talking about performance) as well as FWD cars usually don't have the optimal 50/50 weight distribution. With that said though, the TL really isn't made for ripping through a salom.
Comments
Sooooo true laurasdada, That's why I haven't pulled the trigger on the G35 coupe. I have become very interested in MB. I too love the idea of a hard-top convertible, and the MB styling can't be beat. My wife has a "practicle" TL, so I just my go for a stylish MB that isn't very reliable, who cares! :P
just an fyi..
regards,
kyfdx
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The Z is an absolute performance machine!!! Accelerates great throughout the rpm band in any gear, seat is comfortable and holds you in during cornering (I drove a convertable with special mesh seat inserts), and holds the road like glue. You feel EVERY SINGLE modulation in the road, so if it's gonna be your commuter vehicle, pay close attention tot he road conditions before buying. Personally, it's too rough for me to take on my daily commute.
The interior is cool, not fancy. Dial vents (you know - circular?), auto a/c (was probably an option - I think there's a lot of add=ons available to the base model), all plastic with some metal trim. No wood. Places to put your stuff is maximized by having 2 compartments behind your inside shoulder. All-in-all, it's a utilitarian look, not luxury, but not cheap-looking either, as all the plastic surfaces are patterned in a tough-looking way (not marbled like most cars - more of like the small, sharp bumps on the TLs dash). I didn't do a complete check for all compartments, but I'd expect it to have enough, but no extra room.
This might be a characteristic of the convertable only, but the trunk was so small, it gave you directions on how to pack a set of golf clubs!
Hope this helps.
How long ago was that? :confuse: The state of radio in Cleveland is poor (like many things in Cleveland now).
The morning show on 105.7 is very good though. It's been nominated (again) for a (national) Marconi award.
I know Pat, back to the TL.
XM is the way to go if you want to mix it up with CDs and MP3s. However...I say the Napster to Go subscription where you can hold as many songs in a MP3player is the ultimate jukebox. And the cost is comparable to the XM subscription.
And I posted a link somewhere on the TL boards on how to directly hook up the MP3 player to the existing TL system.... That is definitely the way to go. (Ok Pat...see...something about the TL)
New model... 2 door hardtop coupe based on the Boxster S, except with more power....
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http://www.edmunds.com/future/2006/porsche/caymans/100381291/preview.html
I don't know a thing about it other than my wife saw some article at B&N. What can I say....my wife glances at some of the auto mags instead of Good Housekeeping mag. That is why I married her...a good gal.
And just to be clear - an otherwise off-topic post that manages to squeeze in a TL reference to pretend to be topical doesn't count ...
Alright...let me ask this. How did Honda and Acura decide that the TL is to be front wheel driven vs rear?
I also remember back in the 80's...people were clamouring for front wheel cars and frowned on rear. Is that the reason?
What is the history of the TL being front wheel is the topic. (pat...is that ok?)
For what it's worth, my father noticed significantly more torque steer in an AT Nissan Maxima than in my MT TL. Wonder what helps the TL deal with it...
Torque steer is created from the "suddenness" of the accelleration. If you accellerate slowly and consistently, you won't have torque steer, but once you go for immediate, sudden acceleration, the tires can't handle the sterring and the power simultaneously.
It's easier to get that sudden accelleration with a MT - if I want a quick start, I press the accelerator while in neutral so when I engage I'm already at 3k rpms. Only way to do this on an AT is to ride the brake or accelerate in neutral and then flick the gearshift into drive, which can damage an AT tranny.
I don't know....it is rather odd...but when I had those G35 sedan loaners...I thought it cornered weird until I had the version with the AWD. Maybe it was me (it was probably me).
I hope I get a TL loaner one day when I bring my car in for service...so I can test for torque steer. Watch...I probably will get 10mpg with all the flooring exercises.
I still think that the auto tranny only in the IS350 is going to be an issue...somehow I sense that after playing around with my sequential shifter. Why oh why did they do that. And why do you all think the TL has sequential shifters...and how many auto tranny persons really use it...(Nick of course is banning his wife from its use).
Torque steer comes about when one drive shaft is wound more tightly than the other. This happens on many front wheel drive cars when the drive shafts aren't of equal length and for other reasons too. (The TL has equal length drive shafts though.)
They don't twist much differently when the amount of power they are transferring builds slowly. The torque converter makes the power get to the drive shafts in a much more "mushy" fashion, so it is never applied all at once they way it is when you let off a clutch. And so there is more torque steer in a manual, because the torque winds up much more quickly.
I think it is one factor, yes. Perhaps not a major factor, but a factor nonetheless.
And as I mentioned, the reduced need for optimal interior space is another factor. Plus, automotive trends, like fashion trends, go in cycles. It's RWD's turn in the rotation.
My understanding is that BMW and, at least, the sportier MBs have always been RWD, but the Japanese cars have always been viewed as the "logical" choice, whereas their German counterparts were for those who made decisions with their hearts (or wallets). Actually, here's how I think the change came about (admittedly, some of my ordering might be off - I'm not a historian):
1. people started forgetting about the 70s oil crisis and became more concerned with cars being fun & exciting over logical and useful (I think the rise of the SUV is a strong indicator of this)
2. Mazda created a whole new segment with its Miata - low-end sportscars for those who can't afford the major sportscars (911, Corvette, etc)
3. Nissan, Honda and then Toyota got into that mix with the 350Z, S2000 & I forget the Toyota one that was more like the Miata (I don't really know how the Toyota Supra & its demise plays in all of this). Porsche followed with the Boxter, and Audi with the TT.
4. With these cars, people were now torn between useful sedans and these fun cars
5. Subaru & Mitsubishi developed street legal racecars and now people were really torn;
6. Nissan and Mazda targetted these folks with the redesigned Altima and Mazda Protege Speed and now the 6. Honda, to a lesser extent, makes sure to keep its Accord just a bit more sporty than the Camry. MB came out with a lower end sedan (forget the label) and VW & Volvo seem to be trying to create an entry-level almost luxury sport-sedan segment with the S40/Passat.
7. Nissan had the brilliant idea to dress up an Altima, put it on a Z drivetrain, and label it as an Infiniti. Now you've got a sports sedan with RWD.
I don't know why Honda hasn't countered by stretching it's NSX platform or S2000 platform.
Delmar, you ask And why do you all think the TL has sequential shifters I believe part of the lower-end sports car (Boxter, Miata, etc)/sports-sedan craze is that makers are targetting the cars to individuals who like to think of themselves as the ultimate sports-enthusiasts, but aren't. THat and the fact that fewer and fewer people are learning to drive MT means that cars need to find a middle ground. The sportshifts, manumatics or whatever they are called is a way for AT drivers to feel som more control and it makes for good marketting.
I'm sure if you did a survey, those kinds of features are only used as a change of pace, or to downshift w/o using your brake.
I'm in the same boat. Would sure like the ~$31,500 on a auto/nav TL, but the new 2006's would be nice, too, but maybe not worth paying MSRP.
Aaron
I've been driving a 2003 TL (not Sport) for the past two years without any vibration.
Anybody experience this? What should I believe?
Greg
LOL
I am sure the sequential shifters is full of safe guards prevent people like me, and my wife, from messing up the tranny. When did sequential shifters enter the market?
I did make a deal on a '02 TL (non S) w/ 33k on it. Is there anything I should look for, 1st time buyer of a foreign used car.
Thanks
The tranny. Is it the original, or has it been replaced? Can they confirm whether the 7-yr. extended warranty on the tranny is applicable for your car?
Both new and old set of tires suffer from “flat spotting” that are very noticeable until the tires warm up (2-3 miles), especially on cold days or after sitting for 2-3 days.
I am very willing to live with the flat-spotting as a trade off for the high performance tires.