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Comments
site815 wrote:
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Both the EF(EF-b) and XD's are Delphi systems. by site815 Feb 01,
2003 (2:20 pm)
The SRSCM, DAB, PAB, SAB are all Delphi systems.
DAB, BPT : 0957A-38400
PAB, SAB : 0957A-38300
Both are the same parts.
Although, I am not an engineer so there could be discrepancies in different regional specs.
If anyone is genuinely interested, I can check for sure.
air bag control module 95910-38400 95910-3D200(from 6/1/2001)
satellite sensors 95920-38150 95920-3D000
driver air bag 56900-38000 56900-3D000
PAB 84530-38500
LH seatback pad(side air bag built-in) 88350-38500 88350-39120
'01+ US Elantra
air bag control module 95910-2D500
satellite sensors 95920-2D100
driver air bag 56900-2D000
PAB 84530-2D000
LH seatback pad(side air bag built-in) 88350-2D200
https://208.8.111.53/customer/index.jsp
My questions now are:
1) Does the current Sonata have the same airbag sensors as the current Elantra (per John's earlier statement that they are the same)?
2) If they are the same, has Hyundai investigated the sensors in the IIHS crash units to determine if there was some sample defect that might have been responsible for the late deployments?
3) If they are not the same, has Hyundai (or Delphi) investigated the Elantra's sensors for a possible design defect?
I'll ask the last two questions of Mr. O'Neill's represenetative, if I can ever get him live on the phone.
I don't want to sell my car. It's a fine car, with just one--potentially fatal--flaw. But that flaw is correctable, and I'd like to see Hyundai step up and do that as other manufacturers have done when their cars did not do well on the IIHS crash test.
As for me, airbag problems are the smallest thing on my mind. Just witness the airbag light that blinks constantly on my 92 Miata as proof
If my car were the only Elantra that had a bad master brake cylinder, then a recall action wouldn't be appropriate. If there were a general problem with brake master cylinders on Elantras, then yes, I would expect a recall action by Hyundai. I figure they'd need to do an engineering analysis on the part to figure out why they failed.
>>> If the air bag system has a "correctible flaw", why did Hyundai ask IIHS to retest the Elantra? <<<
The Elantra's poor showing in the IIHS frontal offset crash test was due to more than just the late airbag deployment. It was also due to the driver's seat moving too far forward on its tracks. site815 has stated in another forum that Hyundai has made a fix to the front seat mounts, but only on Korean-market cars. So there's at least one fix to a "correctable flaw" that I would like to see applied to cars in the U.S. As to the retest, the late-deploying airbag problem did not appear in the first test. The reason Hyundai asked for a retest was because in the first test, the dummy's lower leg injury measures were different from those recorded in tests that Hyundai had conducted. As it turned out, the retest showed a high probability of injury to the right foot, plus the airbag deployed late. Then Hyundai asked for a third test because they claimed the airbag problem was an anomaly, and the airbag deployed late in the third test also.
>>> How do you explain the one IIHS test result and Hyundai's own offset crash tests data that didn't show late deployment of the air bags? <<<
That's the puzzle, isn't it? Two times out of three, the airbags deployed late. One out of three could be explained by an anomaly, but two out of three ... that calls for an explanation, in my view. I think Hyundai could set its customers minds at ease by: 1) making public the details of its investigation of the IIHS test results, explaining why they believe there is no problem with the airbag system, 2) recalling all '01-03 Elantras to replace the front seat mounts with the newer parts, and make all new Elantras with the new mounts, and 3) petitioning the IIHS to test a '03 Elantra with the new seat mounts. If there is no airbag problem, the '03 Elantra with the new seat mounts should do very well in the IIHS test, since its structural integrity held up well in previous tests. An added bonus to Hyundai of a successful retest, in addition to helping its customers and winning new customers who are concerned about safety, is that Consumer Reports would then put its "Recommended" label on the Elantra--and that should help drive even more sales. So it's a win-win proposition the way I see it.
**would expect a recall action by Hyundai.
Is there a general problem with the air bag system in Elantra?
When I check your part numbers(1999MY US) I sometimes get valid parts and sometimes get N/A. This would seem to show that the US spec has different airbag systems.
Anyway thank you for your clarification.
1) Does the current Sonata have the same airbag sensors as the current Elantra (per John's earlier statement that they are the same)?
->The 2002MY Korean spec Sonata has the same satellite sensors and SRSCM as the 2002MY Korean spec XD. There is no way for me to check the US spec ones, but I believe Hyundaima may be of assistance.
2) If they are the same, has Hyundai investigated the sensors in the IIHS crash units to determine if there was some sample defect that might have been responsible for the late deployments?
-> I saw a memo regarding this saying than in-house testing has been re done and has not been able to reproduce the same results. So I believe that HMC still maintains that the IIHS results were an anomaly. And as your further post inquire, there has been extensive studies to ascertain the cause and have not been successful.
3) If they are not the same, has Hyundai (or Delphi) investigated the Elantra's sensors for a possible design defect?
-> The US Spec ones at least seem to be the same with Korean Spec XD(Elantra)'s , and even in KNCAP tests there have been no problems.
Those were redesigned for the Korean Spec ones because :
1. They wouldn't slide forward enough for very short people.
2. It was thought wise to address the tensile strength issue while redesigning.
That's why only Korean spec ones were redesigned. And even though it is implied that it is a "flaw" or a "defect" it is not. It is simply "less than optimal" and HMC chose to rectify it while lengthening the mounts. It is impossible to recall every "less than optimal" design. If that was the case, every time some new better design came out HMC would have to issue a recall.
The only reason I supplied you with that information is that as a DIY type of person myself, I thought that you might chose to upgrade your seat mounts personally.
I understand as consumer that you would want to know and be frustrated at HMC's reluctance to act. But even all I know is a memo on our company web board saying : "measure's were taken to determine the cause and have failed. we were unable to reproduce the results"
How are they supposed to act if they cannot reproduce the results?
Anyway, that is what the engineers say. They could be lying but I trust them, whether you do or not is your choice.
My frustration re the airbag issue is not so much that Hyundai has not investigated the problem--because as you explained, they have done that--but that they have not made the details of their study public. I think letting owners and prospective owners know what steps they have taken to decide that the IIHS tests were an anomaly would help a lot. And resubmitting the '03 Elantra for retesting would also help both customers and Hyundai, since that one test is unfortunately a "black mark" that hangs over the Elantra for safety-conscious buyers.
I do disagree with Hyundai's decision not to replace the "less than optimal" seat mounts on all Elantras, in that improving the tensile strength of the mounts could help reduce injuries in a collision. I have no proof of that, but obviously Hyundai's engineers thought it was worthwhile to improve the tensile strength for some reason, and if not for safety, then why? I don't expect a manufacturer to recall a car for every "less than optimal" design that is improved, but I do expect it for design changes that improve safety and which are as easy to implement as replacing $6 worth of parts on an easily-accessed area of the car. I believe the value of the goodwill generated by such a recall would outweigh the costs to Hyundai.
Also, I should point out, in case HMA hasn't realized it yet, but there are many "very short people" in the U.S. too, who could benefit from longer seat tracks.
Please remember that civil and respectful discourse is a requirement in the Town Hall. A post containing a personal attack does not entitle anyone to respond in kind. That makes you just as out of line as the original poster.
Either ignore the comment or email the host. An email to me will get me here a lot sooner than if you just wait for me to happen by on my regular rounds.
Thanks.
After playing a couple of CDs I noticed that when I ejected the CD to put in a new one that the one I ejected was very HOT.
I would say in the 45-50 deg C range because it was not quite to the "threshold of pain" which is commonly referred to be at 55 deg C.
I was on a 7 hr drive when I noticed this.
The CD player also randomly had trouble playing some disks when it got hot. It would act like the disk had a scratch and stutter on the playback.
~alpha
From http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0211.htm
From http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0127.htm
From http://www.iihs.org/vehicle_ratings/ce/html/0125.htm
sensors. The sensors mentioned in the IIHS reports refer to these sensors
located in the crush zone. Elantras don't have them.
About your last post, are you suggesting Elantra needs "structural changes to improve
occupant protection in frontal offset crashes"? If yes, explain why they are necessary.
Please answer my questions including the one in #3321.
Backy- great citations!
FWIW, I think the Elantra is an impressive little car. But it would be nice to see Hyundai act in the way other manufacturers have, with respect to the IIHS test.
~alpha
hyundaima - Last time I checked, this was an Edmunds Town Hall board, not a Board of Inquiry. I don't have to answer each and every question that someone puts to me, especially when I'm not the best person to know the answer. As for 3321, I really think you should ask Hyundai that question, or maybe the IIHS, as they would know the details of which part(s) failed in the IIHS tests--assuming the IIHS test report that I provided the link to has insufficient details for you.
Also, Car and Driver has a short test on the Pontiac Sunfire, a car with even lower quality interior materials, and it was loaded to $19K! More nails in GM's coffin.
As for my little GLS gem, we are approaching another service date with no problems. This car is great.
Happy Winter, all!
GM and DC should feel embarrased that a $12k subcompact beat out their much costlier compact offerings, one a brand-new design. That doesn't bode well for Ion sales.
This will be my last reply to you on this matter, since I'm not too keen about being treated like a hostile witness in a courtroom, and a non-person at that. I really don't see why you are taking it so personally--it's as if you designed the Elantra's air bag systems and seat assemblies and have a personal stake in this.
>>> The person who continues to harp on the IIHS test result doesn't even knowwhat part has failed, <<<
According to the IIHS report on the Elantra (link posted earlier), "The seat latch failed to hold on the inboard (right) side, and the right side of the seat moved forward during the second crash test." There is no indication as to why the seat latch did not hold. For all we know, the testers failed to lock the seat securely. That is possible with the Elantra, I know, because I sometimes have to rock the driver's seat a little to be sure it's latched.
>>> ...somehow concluded that the car has a design defect. What part has failed? He doesn't know....does he know what part sit815 refers to? <<<
I first learned that the Elantra's seat tracks had been redesigned from site815, and also that the redesigned tracks have been applied only in the Korean market. According to site815, the new tracks are longer and have improved tensile strength. He gave me this information so I could get the new parts for my car if I wanted to. This information led me to conclude that Hyundai had found some deficiency in the seat tracks, possibly related to the IIHS tests. Do I know for absolute certainty that the redesigned parts were in response to the IIHS tests? No. That's why I wrote to Finbarr O'Neill to find out the details; an HMA representative is researching this for me now, along with my questions on the late airbag deployments in the IIHS tests.
>> Of course not...yet he is contemplating out loud getting the imaginary "redesigned seat mount"(I personally don't know which part site815 meant in #3301...it doesn't matter because site815's response is crystal-clear in that he is talking about KOREAN-SPEC "floor rail mounts") We don't know how the old Korean-spec and current US-spec hardwares are different, but isn't it reasonable to assume that they are different at least in dimension and US-spec parts are stronger than the Korean ones? What are the revised Korean-specs? And what are the current US-specs? <<<
Why does it bother you that I mentioned that I was looking into getting the new parts? I assumed that site815 would not have given me details on the redesigned parts if there was no way they would fit my U.S.-spec car. But to be sure, I'll double-check it through the HMA representative. I don't know why you think it's reasonable to assume that the U.S.-spec parts are stronger than the Korean-spec parts. What leads you to that conclusion? site815 stated that the new (Korean) tracks have higher tensile strength. If anything, I'd assume that the Korean-spec parts are actually stronger than the U.S.-spec parts now.
>>> This person doesn't want to get into this kind of discussion....he knows that he will have no basis for arguing that a recall is necessary. <<<
I don't mind getting into this kind of discussion at all--with someone who can disagree without getting disagreeable. Regarding a recall, if I want to state an opinion that I'd like to see a recall on the Elantra to fix any problems in the seat tracks/latches/whateveryoucallthem and in the SRS that contributed to the IIHS's Poor frontal offset crash test rating, that's my priviledge. And if you want to disagree, that's your priviledge. But if you can't do that without getting personal, then you can have this discussion with someone else.
You folks who are responding to the argumentative messages are not helping.
Email me with comments or questions, do not post them.
Thanks.
I have a 2001 Elantra GLS with 65,000 miles. Have had two problems with my car that required service (so far):
1. Had the ignition coil replaced after about 30,000 miles. The car would stall when it rained and wouldn't start other days.
2. The current problem. Was riding along one day, went to put the windows down, they went down about two inches and stopped. All four of them. Wouldn't go back up. I thought I blew a fuse, but low and behold, it wasn't the fuse. Hyundai says it'll be $600 to fix.
Has anyone else had all these electrical problems?
IMO just two problems (one of which was taken care of under warranty) on any car in 65,000 miles is pretty darn good.
Maybe this relates to the extended warranty posts. This one problem with the windows would have almost paid the cost of the extended warranty.
I agree with you regarding computerguy3's experience with his car. Very good record over 65K.
Went to Chicago Auto Show (a month after seeing Detroit show) to check out some cars for friends and also for my own curiosity. I decided to really look closely at cars in the same class as my Elantra.
The Civic has some nice features inside, and generally a nice layout, but I was not impressed with the slam of the doors and the feel of some interior switches. Why do the door panels move so much with just a moderate slam? Back seat sits up nice and high (reducing headroom) but the cushion needs more angle. And it is a narrow car inside!
The Jetta has the tiniest back seat of all. No foot room, and the woman in the driver's seat could touch the pedals -- I had to ask because I thought the seat was all the way back. Of course, the materials used in the Jetta are beautiful. VW/Audi interiors are exquisite.
The Saturn Ion gives the best example of GM's continued ignorance of what customers expect in a car. Tight rear quarters with a low, short seat cushion and very uncomfortable upright and stiff seat back. Typical plastics that don't look very good and feel flimsy are everywhere. Pity.
Corolla has nice interior materials and layout, a tight back seat, a short front seat cushion and a decent slam.
Cavalier -- excuse me? You want up to $17K for this??
More than ever, I feel good about my purchase.
the Corolla's backseat is tight? I felt it to be on par with the Elantra's when I test drove them both recently.
if the dealers around here had an Elantra with ABS (and alloys) it would have been a much harder choice for me, despite the Elantra's poor offset crash showing. that warranty is tempting, and the car drove and rode nicely, though handling left a little to be desired.
~alpha