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Greatings again, I'm glad to say that I'm offically set on getting this car. I drove it again on my own and simply love it more than any other car that I've looked at. as for price wise, in comparing the leases of the 5 to some of the other cars I was looking at (G35, X type, CTS, C class) the lease payments work out to be only 15 - 35 dollars more. which in my opinion is just fine, considering the fact that now that I know what I do about this car, I must admit that bmw brand is extreamly good when compared to some of these cars. I've spoken to my mother, and she's reluctantly agreed (she was only against the fact that its a 40K car) which I can understand, but I sat down with here and showed the lease prices of all the vehicles (sticker price on them, but haven't argued out prices yet) so now that she sees it on paper shes ok with it. my father and I are going to go looking at some other out of state dealor ships some weekend in november to see if we can either get a better deal and also find a way to get a 525 sooner. wish us luck and thankx for all the help
Recently test drove new 5 series and although not overly impress by the design, I am surely considering a purchase. I would have never even considered buying previous designs. Also previous designs did not lend itself for long distance traveling due to poor trunk space. The new 5 series does not compare to Mercedes E class in designs but still a very nice car.
You bet they're nervous. Notice how the E60 print ads show nothing but a front 3/4 view. I hope the E60 tanks-maybe then the BMW AG board will realize the emperor is wearing no clothes.
I had the old "check engine soon" light on my E-39, so I was forced to the dealer. I drove the new 5er. I likes the overall drive and ride. Perhaps a bit too smooth and disconnected, but real nice. The I-drive was not working, much to the salesman's embarasment, and the spedo backlight kept coming on and going off during the test drive. Electronic gremlins and Pontiac looks together in one package. Oh, but I own an E-39, so I am biased. Terry
LOL!!! It seems like most every dealer has several E65s in the service bays- all in the process of having one or more of their computers reprogrammed, rebooted, or upgraded. New BMWs have always been notorious for having new model teething problems(ever wonder why you can't give a 1992 E36 away?), but the additional electronics really exacerbate the problem. FWIW, my 1997 E39 was an early build car, but the first owner sorted out most all of the problems before he traded. The CPO warranty covered another couple of glitches for me. At 94K it's still tight and dead-nuts reliable, but I'm sure as heck going to buy the Bentley manual before it hits 100K.
The added electronics of the E60 are definitely scary. Plus, they are using Microsoft software for iDrive-- what were they thinking?!? I'd be nervous about the system crashing and having to reboot.
I'm not adverse to technology, just MSFT platforms. It would have been such a great idea if they had worked with Apple for the OS (the only times I've had to reboot my Apple machine is when I moved!).
I am currently looking to purchase a new 2004 530i or a used 2003 745i with 9000 miles. The reviews of the 2002 745i's scare me, seems like nothing but problems. Are the 2003 any better? I drove both cars and really liked them. My wife actually fell asleep on the test drive of the 2003 745i. You can't put a price on that option! I am looking for comments on the 2003 745i for reliability and anything on the 530i. I know the 530i has just come out but if anyone has any information I would appreciate it. My wife will be driving the car most of the time and I do not want her to be driving to the repair shop the majority of the time. I enjoy warm dinners and I do not want to get the cold shoulder from her repair shop experience. Thanks for your help!
I'd buy neither. The i-drive alone is reason to avoid the 7. It is terrible. If you forge ahead with the 7, MAKE SURE both you and your wife are completely comfortable with the i-drive, although I don't see how you could be. The new 5 just has too many issues, and it is very price y. How about an 02-03 530 or even 540? How about an 02 740? (Notice I said NOTHING about looks.)
lol... please befor I sign the final papers... what issues are you talking about with the new 5? I thought it was a good car, are there problems I should know and consider? thankx
Read the latest (12/03) issue of Car & Driver. Six (6) car comparison test with 745i. 745i comes out in 3rd place. They love the way it performs but not the way you have to drive and live with it. Some excerpts:
"We've given iDrive 18 months to persuade us. It failed. Now the F is in ink. Fearless prediction: The 745i will take a beating on resale ... The 745i is also less appealing than all the others in its interior design. Do you get the idea this is the car we love to disparage? ... The Verdict: So relentlessly high-tech even the dashboard wood looks virtual."
If you just want your wife to go to sleep, save some serious money and buy a Lexus LS430!
BMW used to be at the top of nearly every C&D test. In the past year the M3 and M5 lost out to Audi S4 and S6 while the X5 got popped by the Cadillac SRX. Now granted, a lot of the test criteria are subjective and I don't doubt C&D is rating the BMWs lower in order to avoid the frequent accusations that they are in Munich's pocket-as happened in the mid-90's when the ti Sport got bumped into second place so that BMW wouldn't sweep the "Best Handling Car in America" test series. The E60's third place is more ominous; it's clear to one and all that the wonderful drivetrain and suspension cannot overcome the awkward styling and overly complex control interface. To quote on of the cruising teens in American Graffiti:"What a waste of fine machinery".
I own a 97 540. I wanted to get a new car. I looked at the new BMW 545 and with all the add ons it will cost 65k. I know its a great car but why when i am spending 55k on a car I have too pay more to get better seats, and radio etc. I looked at the new Acura TL and it is not as good as the BMW, but I don't see the 30k difference between the 2 cars. What is BMW doing are they crazy?
The way I look at it BMW has choices and prices for choices. I'm not quite sure if the Lexus SC430 coupe for example, is twice the car as the TL for twice the money. Yes it's a coupe vs a sedan, but that is the mindset you have to get into when you buy more expensive automobiles. My bet if you drove the 545i and the TL back to back you would understand the differences in these vehicles. Look at the SL600, is it worth 4 TLs with much less room?
I agree completely. The new 5-series is a serious step backwards for BMW in design, excessive gadgetry and declining price/value.
I am very glad to have traded up to the M5 last year. It didn't cost me much more than the new 545i and I didn't suffer the insult of being nickle and dimed.
This is a dark time for BMW. I thought for sure that the negative publicity and consumer reaction to the 745i would have taught them something. As someone who has rarely not had a BMW of some sort in his garage since buying an M1 in 1979, the ONLY BMW left for me to consider if my M5 gets stolen would be a 3-series / M3. This is truly sad.
I wonder if this vent is supposed to be blowing cold air while the heat settings are on full blast. I have owned this car for one and a half years now and only yesterday i just reached my hand back in front of the vent to see if it was nice and warm and was shocked to feel ice cold air. The air conditioner button is not on at all either. The rear vent only has an open-close switch. I sat in the car(engine running of course) for twenty minutes trying all the buttons but no warm air came. So I went to bed depressed.
You don't even need to use the I-drive if you are intimidated and don't appreciate the benefit of keeping your eyes on the road or you're unfamiliar with a "desktop" or "mouse". You can actually drive and thoroughly enjoy the "ultimate driving machine" without using the I-drive at all.
About I-drive: you do make sense once in a while. I went out the other night to test drive the 04 530i, and did not even bother with the I-drive. The car does ride better than my 03 530i, and is roomier too. I still prefer the classic (and classy) look of my E39, but I am not going to badmouth the E60. A quoi bon? Ca ne va rien changer.
bmwseller... What does the iDrive control for which there aren't any other dedicated controls? Can I use the radio/CD without iDrive? Climate controls?
When I test drove a 745i last year, I couldn't figure out how to work the radio. Don't know about you, but I rarely drive without the radio or a CD playing. Don't think I figured out how to adjust the climate controls, something I usually find necessary in order to drive comfortably.
I also remember how overly and unnecessarily complex were the seat adjustment controls. Made it difficult just to get the seat properly adjusted. Not to mention the insanity just to get the car into Drive and back to Park. Wonderful drive (i.e., how the car performed) ruined by a horrible driving experience (i.e., what it took me to operate it).
I am considering a 1995 540, automatic, black with black leather, 100,000 miles. The car looks great, drives great. It is original owner, local. I believe the car was babied and serviced properly. Since this would be my first BMW, I would like to know what to look out for, and if the $11,500 asking price is good. I have a 60 mile RT commute through country roads, no stop and go traffic, and am looking for a comfortable, fun car to drive, but I am a little concerned about potential maintenance cost and potential major problems.
There are many potential issues on a 95 540. If you don't know about the nikasil blocks BMW used on early 540s, you have some investigating to do. Start here: www.lestac.co.uk/bmw/nikasil.htm . Wanna low maint car, it's not BMW. They are GREAT cars, they just take some maintenance, and lots of that maintenance is costly.
If you love the drive of a BMW, and are willing to pay the price in maintenance, then it may be your car. If not, look at Acura, Lexus, Honda, Toyota, et all.
This is new from just about everyone's perspective. Think that once you've done the operations they'll begin to become routine.
Radio controls do not have to be accessed through the I-drive screen. Steering wheel controls can be used to scan through all the pre-sets and control volume plus a mute button. The steering wheel has two programable buttons that can be set for memory to do any climate settings, nav, or phone functions. The single disc in dash cd player below the climate control selectors has a volume control and scan button.
So, that's radio and climate without I-drive.
It's similar to getting a new computer at home. You program it to do what you want and get on with your driving.
Seats are memory and there are many different settings just like any other lux sedan. It's a one time shot. You set the seat options and that's it. It you want to tinker with seats then you tinker with the seats.
It simplifies all the cool convenient functions that enhance the experience and reduces eye travel while driving. Plus, you can just turn the monitor off while your driving if it is a distraction.
Our first batch of 525's showed up friday. We're a fairly small dealer but we sold two (I sold one) of them saturday. I also delivered one of the last new M5's in the country. Man, that car is special, too bad it's done.
BMWSeller has a very good point. However, the counter to this is BMWs track record with electronics. They have many gremlins with the basic stuff at which Toyota/Honda excel: memory seats, interior lights controlled by door openings, etc. The X5 has the adaptive brake light feature. Cool. My X5 was in the shop, twice, 7 days total for a problem with it.
That's what really bothers me about I-drive. Car in the shop for some feature I really don't need or even want.
I have an 03 530i and I really like it. However, I'd really like an E28 body/electronics, E28s M5 suspension, with the current 3.0 punched out to 3.5! Yep, I'd take 2 and put one away for when the 1st one expired. Should have kept the old E28 and performed a motor transplant!
bmwseller... Read C&D's comments on iDrive and other quirks. (Which agree with nearly every published report I've seen on iDrive.) I concur with C&D's comments. They had problems after 18 months. I couldn't get it to work, either. Not intuitive. Didn't simplify anything. Adds cost, complexity, and distracts from driving.
For example, I couldn't find or set the radio stations I wanted. Didn't help me to listen to the radio stations someone else had pre-set.
Maybe even worse than iDrive, if there can be such a thing, was just getting the car into Drive to start off and into Park at the end. Bizarre. Off putting.
Thanks Jack, I had no idea. The website was very helpful. Definitely makes me stop and think. I don't mind spending some money on maintenance, and know it will be more costly than a lexus es300 of similar year and mileage, but nikasil, huh? Other than that "minor" issue, knowing the information about the car, any other thoughts?
Some people were probably put off by indoor plumbing at first.
Look, I'm not going by some magazine review. I'm around the cars all the time with clients who are learning about and using the product. My main point is that the technology has clear benefits. And, that upon one's first evaluation it will be an adjustment for people. If you don't think it's worth adjusting to then keep using the outhouse.
I can show a client how to use everything on the car in about 20 minutes or so. I had a "first time" in the car myself and I was able to put it in gear in less than a minute.
Try voice command next time....push voice command button on steering wheel.....say "radio" then station "102.3", and it will go to 102.3. Easy, and you barely take your eyes off the road for a split second, if at all.
I was wondering if anyone on the boards has purchased an '04 545? I'm thinking buying one, and was curious what impressions anyone has that has driven/owned one.
I really appreciate reading all of the comments on this board--very helpful to hear everyone's opinion. I started out liking the new 5 styling, went and test drove a 525 and liked it, but not enough power. I then read this board, and was starting to think 'hey, what's wrong with me--why do I like it when most posters don't like it?'--but, of course, everyone has their opinions.
In '02, I bought a new E320. I had more problems with that car than any other ever owned (replaced rear shock, replaced driver's seat, electrical system/built in phone nightmare, front fog light burning out every two weeks or so). I realize I probably got a bad one out of a batch of good ones, but it scared me from MB for the time being (and I really like the new styling). I'm also looking for something more sporty, with room for 3 kids in the back.
I really, really like the prior 5 series styling, and was thinking of a 540. I hesitate to look for an E39 however since it is now 'the old style'--shouldn't be that big of a deal since I like the styling, but I like the new too. The new styling is different, and I like it too (not as much as the old, I have to say, but still like it). I'm also a full-fledged techno-geek, and am looking forward to playing with idrive. I also want the performance of the 545 over the 530. I read some people complaining about the price increase, and from my observations, there have been a number of improvements to the 5--I'm curious why all the complaints (although I realize that some that are complaining also don't like the styling, and this may be one basis for not wanting to pay more).
Finally, I'm leaning toward silver--silver grey metallic or the lighter silver. Any opinions? Thanks
most German cars like MB, Audi. But they take a lot of maintenance when they get to 4 or 5 years of age. If you think the "drive" of the BMW justifies this, you'll be happy most of the time. If the cost of maintenance and the inconvienience of taking the car to the shop really bothers you, well, something else may suit you a little better.
I just sold an 86 528e. A great car. Had several people that wanted it. One couple in particular started taking about how this car would replace a Camry, and how the Camry was so trouble free. I dissuaded them from buying and was prepared to refuse to sell if they had made an offer. Now, it was a great car, always garaged, always dealer maintained, and very road worthy. But, neglect expensive maintenance for a year or so and it would have been a piece of junk.
It's like the vacuum tube vs. transister thing. We all know what's best, but only .00001% are willing to pay the price. We all know that BMW makes the best sports sedan, but only 1-2% (in MHO) are willing to pay the price.
Another way to put this, Toyota's / Honda's, etc. are retired because you tire of driving them. BMWs are retired because you tire of maintaining them.
Another though, 97+ 540s have no block casting issues.
You might find this US specific site to be helpful: http://www.koalamotorsport.com/tech/misc/v8shortblock.htm FWIW, the Nikasil issue only affected the M60 V8s in the US. As for the E34 5ers, they tend to be quite robust cars. The slushboxes can be problematic; some will go 200K while others implode at 75K. Regular fluid and filter changes(every 30K-40K are beneficial). I have several friends who have run their E34s past 200K with little more than scheduled maintenance being required. Here are my keys to sensible BMW ownership: 1.Have a pre-purchase inspection performed by a qualified BMW tech. Brake fluid needs to be changed every 1-2 years, coolant every 2-3. You need to ensure the car received proper care. 2.Find a good independent BMW tech for service and repairs. My service costs tend to be 50%-60% of dealer costs, and my shop uses OEM parts and Mobil 1 Lubricants. 3.Join BMW CCA and take advantage of their free technical advice and the CCA discounts offered by dozens of shops. 4.Find some good BMW message boards and /or mailing lists(I'd give you some suggestions, but Edmunds doesn't allow TH participants to mention them).
go easy on it in my sports sedan please. ABS, not bad but I wish I could defeat it with a switch. DSC, OK, but make it an option. I always turn it off. I-drive. Aaah. Why? What kind of problem are we supposed to be solving here? Look, if I want an operating system in my car, I'll through my laptop in the trunk.
Now any and all are free to differ with my views. I won't call you names, classify you, or think less of you as a person because you differ with me. Accord me the same right when I select my car or state an opinion.
I long for the days when you saw a car you were so move that you wrote songs about it, dreamed about it, commited to working two jobs to pay for it, etc. From my era, the 62 SS 409 did it, the 64/65/66 GTO, the 67/68 Z/28, 66/67 442, 66 Chevelle SS 396 all made us lust. many more, this is just a short list. Now the car I drive today is better in virtually every way than the stuff from the 60s. But I-drive just is not making my pulse quicken.
My point is that the "biased" aspect of the opinion is totally understandable. I mean, you buy a 2002 or 2003 %er and a new one comes. You love your BMW...how many would love the replacement? Almost all who hate the new 5er quantify that opinion by comparing it to the E39, or whatever it is called.
How does a BMW which has sported the kidney grill for decades all of a sudden now looke like a Pontiac...would it not be the other way around?
I love the previous 5, but in the showroom side by side, it looks old, almost boring and not very sporting. The 540 always looks nice because of the wheel/tire factor.
Whether that is a good thing/bad thing, evidently up to now it is a bad thing. I think that it is a huge shock to Bimme fans and it will take some time to get used to the new era of BMW, I guess.
Or just buy an Audi!
I am going to take out a 530i with the Sport Package in Canada. It is a little different here I think, just the wheel/tires, stiffer suspension and I think sportier seats. My choices will be either this car, an S-Type 3.0 manual, or an A6 2.7TT manual. The car has to be manual. price-wise, the jag is best, but the Audi is a poor value right now as far as leasing is concerned.
I sort of like those classic ordinary basketball shoes. But, they are hard to cut with and your feet hurt like heck after ballin' for a couple of hours.
2500 E60's were sold in October. That's a big # in my mind because no one really even had any. Look out. Also, for the month BMW outsells MB and Lexus. 7 series had one of the best months ever with 1800 sales. X5 model 2003 #'s were 2600 and they are nearly gone.....In the used car market BMW values were up as dealer inventories continued to be very low (CPO sales 5500).
"Why can't the BMW 6, maybe the best engine on the planet, be made large enough to outrun a $20k Accord after you've plunked down $50k?"
That might be true except in California or New Jersey. In states where you can modify the heck out of engines with little regard to air pollution you can get a Pinto to outrun an M3. It is a trueism the cheaper the car the easier it is to modify the heck out of until it goes as fast as possible in a straight line. Just don't try turning as you are moving that fast.
Am getting itchy to allocate from the mid-life-crisis-toy-car fund. Am considering buying a low-mileage (34K) cream puff 87 M6 and am willing to put up with maintenance issues. Any of you guys have knowledge of specific maintenance concerns?
Other candidates: Boxster, 911, 330ci, 350Z roadster. I really want a 911 C4S but am not sure I want to go that high. Haven't driven or researched the Z yet but like the style.
The thing I like about the M6 is its uniqueness. It's also one of my favorite BMWs. M1, 6, 850, E39 and the first 3 and 7 were the best IMO. 2002 presses a lot of nostalgia buttons but those seats were backache city. It was also pretty ugly.
I remember the euphoria of the first 3 and 7. Those were elegant steps into the future.
"Some people were probably put off by indoor plumbing at first." So, You think that anyone who doesn't believe that I-Drive is the greatest technological achievement since the transistor is an automotive Luddite? Nice. One thing I'm NOT is a technophobe. There is a significant difference between technology that ENHANCES the driving experience and overly complex gimcracks that DETRACT from the experience.
"Seats are memory and there are many different settings just like any other lux sedan. It's a one time shot. You set the seat options and that's it. It you want to tinker with seats then you tinker with the seats." See above. What was wrong with the memory setup in the E39-or the E28 for that matter? Oh wait, I remember... Chris Bangle wants a different "presentation".
"I can show a client how to use everything on the car in about 20 minutes or so. I had a "first time" in the car myself and I was able to put it in gear in less than a minute." LOL! You just proved my point; WHY should putting the car in gear require 60 seconds of study to figure out? Why should a car require a card you have to give the valet so he can drive it off? Perhaps it's a diabolical anti-theft system???
"Look, I'm not going by some magazine review." Hmmm... I seem to recall that BMW NA loved to broadcast how the 3er and 5er almost always made the C&D "10 Best List". But now C&D is just "some magazine". Interesting.
Well, friend, my BMW enthusiasm goes back over three decades-my BMW ownership two decades. I've restored an E3, tracked/autocrossed/rallied E28s, E24s, E30s, E34s, E36s, E46s, and E53s. I was probably tearing into Motronic boxes while you were still in middle school. Consequently, I find your condescending and flippant dismissal of any and all criticism of the E60 and E65 especially irritating. If you will take off your blue and white tinted glasses and put down your Munich Megaphone I think you will find that there are a significant number of enthusiasts and long time owners-and dealers!-who are sincerely concerned about the direction BMW is headed. Drink all the Bangle Kool-Ade you want, but I think BMW is in trouble.
Solving the problem of having a dash absolutely packed with buttons and causing the driver to have to spend more time reaching for buttons with their attention diverted from the road is the purpose of I-drive.
Problem: abundance of controls, distractive buttons.
Solution: integrated one touch control of systems in position that allows more driver attention focused on road.
Furthermore, there is a huge reduction in the # of components involved in the various operations. If there were a button, switch or gauge for each function than there would be a greater opoportunity for component failure.
Evoking passions is in the eye of the beholder, if you know what I mean. Maybe that's because you used to be younger. I used to get awful excited about having a couple of drinks and hanging out with some cute girl on a friday night, too but that was then.
I'd be happy to take on any accord any time. There's more to driving performance than 0 to 60 times or peak horse power. We know that. But, if you're passionate about the Accord, by all means, that is a good car.
I had a 1988 which I still regret selling. There's a good Yahoo list for the S38 M cars. Upkeep costs aren't that much higher than a 635csi, but some procedures(such as valve adjustments) are somewhat more involved. The self-leveling rear suspension can be a pain but you can replace it with standard Bilsteins or get lots of diagnostic help off the web. Some of the interior trim is hard to find and some of the P/S hoses are pricey. I spent about $800/yr on non-scheduled maintenance but it was worth every penny-and then some. Put a Conforti chip in it and have fun humiliating Mustang Gts and C4 Corvettes. Get a PPI, verify a good service history and have at it. Of the other cars you mention, the only one I really like is the C4S; what a fabulous car! I'd also look at an M Coupe. Sure, it resembles a bread van, but boy is it a blast...
bmwseller, because I disagree with you does not mean that I don't like you. Neither do I refuse to acknowledge your redeeming qualities. Ever consider teaching creative writing? You sure know how to inspire. This place was rife with lengthy posts today. You know how to light fires and extinguish them adeptly.
"Sorry, are you not going to buy one from me now?"
designman... Magnificent car. Is that the M24 platform? So good that the more "advanced" 8 Series failed to replace it and BMW has waited till now to try again.
Have you read Jeremy Walton's recent book on the 6 Series? Companion to his earlier one on the 3 Series. Both from Bentley Publishers. 6 Series Enthusiast's Companion.
I delivered a new 5 last week to a 72 year old female. I showed her the i-drive last and she says "oh, this is just like a desktop" and "oh, this is just like a mouse". She's had the car less than a week and she is totally comfortable with and appreciates the benifits of I-drive.
I believe that in the near future you'll see similar features in other makes. Oh, we already do.
BMWSeller: "Solving the problem of having a dash absolutely packed with buttons and causing the driver to have to spend more time reaching for buttons with their attention diverted from the road is the purpose of I-drive.
Problem: abundance of controls, distractive buttons.
Solution: integrated one touch control of systems in position that allows more driver attention focused on road."
Furthermore, there is a huge reduction in the # of components involved in the various operations. If there were a button, switch or gauge for each function than there would be a greater opoportunity for component failure.
joatmon Response: OK, maybe all the buttons are a problem for you and it's now solved. Sorry, hasn't been a problem for me.
BMWSeller: Evoking passions is in the eye of the beholder, if you know what I mean. Maybe that's because you used to be younger. I used to get awful excited about having a couple of drinks and hanging out with some cute girl on a friday night, too but that was then.
joatmon Response: Yes, but to my eye there are still a few cars that fan the flame. I just followed a new 530i home. No fan there. I don't dislike it. It just doesn't make me say, "Wow, I've got to get one of these".
BMWSeller: I'd be happy to take on any accord any time. There's more to driving performance than 0 to 60 times or peak horse power. We know that. But, if you're passionate about the Accord, by all means, that is a good car.
joatmon Response: Well, take them on. Just make sure there's a curve in the road cause the V6 will eat you lunch on the straights. I sure didn't buy the 530i for 0 to 60 times. My son has a 540i, and the 0 to 60 times are a little better. But I like the 530i overall drive better. I still think BMW could make a 6 that could provide a little more grunt.
BMWSeller: I delivered a new 5 last week to a 72 year old female. I showed her the i-drive last and she says "oh, this is just like a desktop" and "oh, this is just like a mouse". She's had the car less than a week and she is totally comfortable with and appreciates the benifits of I-drive.
joatmon Response: BINGO. You've just delivered to your new target audience.
Comments
Units Sold in USA
Make Model September 2003 August 2003 YTD 2003 YTD 2002
Mercedes-Benz S-Class 2,025 1,622 15,981 14,534
BMW 7 Series 1,457 1,817 14,410 16,296
Lexus LS 430 1,739 2,168 15,583 19,909
Aura 3.5 RL 590 769 5,457 7,557
Audi A8 520 93 2,311 831
BMW 5 Series 2,911 2,061 33,129 28,932
BMW M5 64 28 1,356 1,248
Units Sold in USA
Make Model September 2003 August 2003 YTD 2003 YTD 2002
BMW 7 Series 1,457 1,817 14,410 16,296
Jaguar XJ Series 1,020 582 7,160 6,521
Will be most interesting to see what happens to 5 Series sales when comparing E39 to E60. Betting BMW is pretty nervous right now.
Terry
I'm not adverse to technology, just MSFT platforms. It would have been such a great idea if they had worked with Apple for the OS (the only times I've had to reboot my Apple machine is when I moved!).
Read the latest (12/03) issue of Car & Driver. Six (6) car comparison test with 745i. 745i comes out in 3rd place. They love the way it performs but not the way you have to drive and live with it. Some excerpts:
"We've given iDrive 18 months to persuade us. It failed. Now the F is in ink. Fearless prediction: The 745i will take a beating on resale ... The 745i is also less appealing than all the others in its interior design. Do you get the idea this is the car we love to disparage? ... The Verdict: So relentlessly high-tech even the dashboard wood looks virtual."
If you just want your wife to go to sleep, save some serious money and buy a Lexus LS430!
I am very glad to have traded up to the M5 last year. It didn't cost me much more than the new 545i and I didn't suffer the insult of being nickle and dimed.
This is a dark time for BMW. I thought for sure that the negative publicity and consumer reaction to the 745i would have taught them something. As someone who has rarely not had a BMW of some sort in his garage since buying an M1 in 1979, the ONLY BMW left for me to consider if my M5 gets stolen would be a 3-series / M3. This is truly sad.
You don't even need to use the I-drive if you are intimidated and don't appreciate the benefit of keeping your eyes on the road or you're unfamiliar with a "desktop" or "mouse". You can actually drive and thoroughly enjoy the "ultimate driving machine" without using the I-drive at all.
When I test drove a 745i last year, I couldn't figure out how to work the radio. Don't know about you, but I rarely drive without the radio or a CD playing. Don't think I figured out how to adjust the climate controls, something I usually find necessary in order to drive comfortably.
I also remember how overly and unnecessarily complex were the seat adjustment controls. Made it difficult just to get the seat properly adjusted. Not to mention the insanity just to get the car into Drive and back to Park. Wonderful drive (i.e., how the car performed) ruined by a horrible driving experience (i.e., what it took me to operate it).
If you love the drive of a BMW, and are willing to pay the price in maintenance, then it may be your car. If not, look at Acura, Lexus, Honda, Toyota, et all.
Jack
Radio controls do not have to be accessed through the I-drive screen. Steering wheel controls can be used to scan through all the pre-sets and control volume plus a mute button. The steering wheel has two programable buttons that can be set for memory to do any climate settings, nav, or phone functions. The single disc in dash cd player below the climate control selectors has a volume control and scan button.
So, that's radio and climate without I-drive.
It's similar to getting a new computer at home. You program it to do what you want and get on with your driving.
Seats are memory and there are many different settings just like any other lux sedan. It's a one time shot. You set the seat options and that's it. It you want to tinker with seats then you tinker with the seats.
It simplifies all the cool convenient functions that enhance the experience and reduces eye travel while driving. Plus, you can just turn the monitor off while your driving if it is a distraction.
People love this new 5!
That's what really bothers me about I-drive. Car in the shop for some feature I really don't need or even want.
I have an 03 530i and I really like it. However, I'd really like an E28 body/electronics, E28s M5 suspension, with the current 3.0 punched out to 3.5! Yep, I'd take 2 and put one away for when the 1st one expired. Should have kept the old E28 and performed a motor transplant!
Happy Motoring = DSC off,
Jack
For example, I couldn't find or set the radio stations I wanted. Didn't help me to listen to the radio stations someone else had pre-set.
Maybe even worse than iDrive, if there can be such a thing, was just getting the car into Drive to start off and into Park at the end. Bizarre. Off putting.
Look, I'm not going by some magazine review. I'm around the cars all the time with clients who are learning about and using the product. My main point is that the technology has clear benefits. And, that upon one's first evaluation it will be an adjustment for people. If you don't think it's worth adjusting to then keep using the outhouse.
I can show a client how to use everything on the car in about 20 minutes or so. I had a "first time" in the car myself and I was able to put it in gear in less than a minute.
Try voice command next time....push voice command button on steering wheel.....say "radio" then station "102.3", and it will go to 102.3. Easy, and you barely take your eyes off the road for a split second, if at all.
I really appreciate reading all of the comments on this board--very helpful to hear everyone's opinion. I started out liking the new 5 styling, went and test drove a 525 and liked it, but not enough power. I then read this board, and was starting to think 'hey, what's wrong with me--why do I like it when most posters don't like it?'--but, of course, everyone has their opinions.
In '02, I bought a new E320. I had more problems with that car than any other ever owned (replaced rear shock, replaced driver's seat, electrical system/built in phone nightmare, front fog light burning out every two weeks or so). I realize I probably got a bad one out of a batch of good ones, but it scared me from MB for the time being (and I really like the new styling). I'm also looking for something more sporty, with room for 3 kids in the back.
I really, really like the prior 5 series styling, and was thinking of a 540. I hesitate to look for an E39 however since it is now 'the old style'--shouldn't be that big of a deal since I like the styling, but I like the new too. The new styling is different, and I like it too (not as much as the old, I have to say, but still like it). I'm also a full-fledged techno-geek, and am looking forward to playing with idrive. I also want the performance of the 545 over the 530. I read some people complaining about the price increase, and from my observations, there have been a number of improvements to the 5--I'm curious why all the complaints (although I realize that some that are complaining also don't like the styling, and this may be one basis for not wanting to pay more).
Finally, I'm leaning toward silver--silver grey metallic or the lighter silver. Any opinions? Thanks
I just sold an 86 528e. A great car. Had several people that wanted it. One couple in particular started taking about how this car would replace a Camry, and how the Camry was so trouble free. I dissuaded them from buying and was prepared to refuse to sell if they had made an offer. Now, it was a great car, always garaged, always dealer maintained, and very road worthy. But, neglect expensive maintenance for a year or so and it would have been a piece of junk.
It's like the vacuum tube vs. transister thing. We all know what's best, but only .00001% are willing to pay the price. We all know that BMW makes the best sports sedan, but only 1-2% (in MHO) are willing to pay the price.
Another way to put this, Toyota's / Honda's, etc. are retired because you tire of driving them. BMWs are retired because you tire of maintaining them.
Another though, 97+ 540s have no block casting issues.
Jack
http://www.koalamotorsport.com/tech/misc/v8shortblock.htm
FWIW, the Nikasil issue only affected the M60 V8s in the US. As for the E34 5ers, they tend to be quite robust cars. The slushboxes can be problematic; some will go 200K while others implode at 75K. Regular fluid and filter changes(every 30K-40K are beneficial). I have several friends who have run their E34s past 200K with little more than scheduled maintenance being required. Here are my keys to sensible BMW ownership:
1.Have a pre-purchase inspection performed by a qualified BMW tech. Brake fluid needs to be changed every 1-2 years, coolant every 2-3. You need to ensure the car received proper care.
2.Find a good independent BMW tech for service and repairs. My service costs tend to be 50%-60% of dealer costs, and my shop uses OEM parts and Mobil 1 Lubricants.
3.Join BMW CCA and take advantage of their free technical advice and the CCA discounts offered by dozens of shops.
4.Find some good BMW message boards and /or mailing lists(I'd give you some suggestions, but Edmunds doesn't allow TH participants to mention them).
Now any and all are free to differ with my views. I won't call you names, classify you, or think less of you as a person because you differ with me. Accord me the same right when I select my car or state an opinion.
I long for the days when you saw a car you were so move that you wrote songs about it, dreamed about it, commited to working two jobs to pay for it, etc. From my era, the 62 SS 409 did it, the 64/65/66 GTO, the 67/68 Z/28, 66/67 442, 66 Chevelle SS 396 all made us lust. many more, this is just a short list. Now the car I drive today is better in virtually every way than the stuff from the 60s. But I-drive just is not making my pulse quicken.
She's real fine, tach it up, rev it up,
Jack
How does a BMW which has sported the kidney grill for decades all of a sudden now looke like a Pontiac...would it not be the other way around?
I love the previous 5, but in the showroom side by side, it looks old, almost boring and not very sporting. The 540 always looks nice because of the wheel/tire factor.
Whether that is a good thing/bad thing, evidently up to now it is a bad thing. I think that it is a huge shock to Bimme fans and it will take some time to get used to the new era of BMW, I guess.
Or just buy an Audi!
I am going to take out a 530i with the Sport Package in Canada. It is a little different here I think, just the wheel/tires, stiffer suspension and I think sportier seats. My choices will be either this car, an S-Type 3.0 manual, or an A6 2.7TT manual. The car has to be manual. price-wise, the jag is best, but the Audi is a poor value right now as far as leasing is concerned.
I sort of like those classic ordinary basketball shoes. But, they are hard to cut with and your feet hurt like heck after ballin' for a couple of hours.
1. What problem does I-drive solve?
2. Why can't todays BMWs evoke the emotion and passion of 2002tii?
3. Why can't the BMW 6, maybe the best engine on the planet, be made large enough to outrun a $20k Accord after you've plunked down $50k?
Jack
That might be true except in California or New Jersey. In states where you can modify the heck out of engines with little regard to air pollution you can get a Pinto to outrun an M3. It is a trueism the cheaper the car the easier it is to modify the heck out of until it goes as fast as possible in a straight line. Just don't try turning as you are moving that fast.
Other candidates: Boxster, 911, 330ci, 350Z roadster. I really want a 911 C4S but am not sure I want to go that high. Haven't driven or researched the Z yet but like the style.
The thing I like about the M6 is its uniqueness. It's also one of my favorite BMWs. M1, 6, 850, E39 and the first 3 and 7 were the best IMO. 2002 presses a lot of nostalgia buttons but those seats were backache city. It was also pretty ugly.
I remember the euphoria of the first 3 and 7. Those were elegant steps into the future.
So, You think that anyone who doesn't believe that I-Drive is the greatest technological achievement since the transistor is an automotive Luddite? Nice. One thing I'm NOT is a technophobe. There is a significant difference between technology that ENHANCES the driving experience and overly complex gimcracks that DETRACT from the experience.
"Seats are memory and there are many different settings just like any other lux sedan. It's a one time shot. You set the seat options and that's it. It you want to tinker with seats then you tinker with the seats."
See above. What was wrong with the memory setup in the E39-or the E28 for that matter? Oh wait, I remember... Chris Bangle wants a different "presentation".
"I can show a client how to use everything on the car in about 20 minutes or so. I had a "first time" in the car myself and I was able to put it in gear in less than a minute."
LOL! You just proved my point; WHY should putting the car in gear require 60 seconds of study to figure out? Why should a car require a card you have to give the valet so he can drive it off? Perhaps it's a diabolical anti-theft system???
"Look, I'm not going by some magazine review."
Hmmm... I seem to recall that BMW NA loved to broadcast how the 3er and 5er almost always made the C&D "10 Best List". But now C&D is just "some magazine". Interesting.
Well, friend, my BMW enthusiasm goes back over three decades-my BMW ownership two decades. I've restored an E3, tracked/autocrossed/rallied E28s, E24s, E30s, E34s, E36s, E46s, and E53s. I was probably tearing into Motronic boxes while you were still in middle school. Consequently, I find your condescending and flippant dismissal of any and all criticism of the E60 and E65 especially irritating. If you will take off your blue and white tinted glasses and put down your Munich Megaphone I think you will find that there are a significant number of enthusiasts and long time owners-and dealers!-who are sincerely concerned about the direction BMW is headed. Drink all the Bangle Kool-Ade you want, but I think BMW is in trouble.
Problem: abundance of controls, distractive buttons.
Solution: integrated one touch control of systems in position that allows more driver attention focused on road.
Furthermore, there is a huge reduction in the # of components involved in the various operations. If there were a button, switch or gauge for each function than there would be a greater opoportunity for component failure.
Evoking passions is in the eye of the beholder, if you know what I mean. Maybe that's because you used to be younger. I used to get awful excited about having a couple of drinks and hanging out with some cute girl on a friday night, too but that was then.
I'd be happy to take on any accord any time. There's more to driving performance than 0 to 60 times or peak horse power. We know that. But, if you're passionate about the Accord, by all means, that is a good car.
Fact is, more buttons and dials means ONE MOVE to where you're going. This is the problem with iDrive... too many clicks.
Also, digital technology has been in the mainstream for twenty years now. All of a sudden iDrive is leading edge? Give us a break.
BTW, I don't want my dash looking like living room furniture. This is my idea of an ideal dashboard:
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/b2/b27.html
"Sorry, are you not going to buy one from me now?"
Gotta love it!
-FAB :-)
Have you read Jeremy Walton's recent book on the 6 Series? Companion to his earlier one on the 3 Series. Both from Bentley Publishers. 6 Series Enthusiast's Companion.
I delivered a new 5 last week to a 72 year old female. I showed her the i-drive last and she says "oh, this is just like a desktop" and "oh, this is just like a mouse". She's had the car less than a week and she is totally comfortable with and appreciates the benifits of I-drive.
I believe that in the near future you'll see similar features in other makes. Oh, we already do.
Problem: abundance of controls, distractive buttons.
Solution: integrated one touch control of systems in position that allows more driver attention focused on road."
Furthermore, there is a huge reduction in the # of components involved in the various operations. If there were a button, switch or gauge for each function than there would be a greater opoportunity for component failure.
joatmon Response: OK, maybe all the buttons are a problem for you and it's now solved. Sorry, hasn't been a problem for me.
BMWSeller: Evoking passions is in the eye of the beholder, if you know what I mean. Maybe that's because you used to be younger. I used to get awful excited about having a couple of drinks and hanging out with some cute girl on a friday night, too but that was then.
joatmon Response: Yes, but to my eye there are still a few cars that fan the flame. I just followed a new 530i home. No fan there. I don't dislike it. It just doesn't make me say, "Wow, I've got to get one of these".
BMWSeller: I'd be happy to take on any accord any time. There's more to driving performance than 0 to 60 times or peak horse power. We know that. But, if you're passionate about the Accord, by all means, that is a good car.
joatmon Response: Well, take them on. Just make sure there's a curve in the road cause the V6 will eat you lunch on the straights. I sure didn't buy the 530i for 0 to 60 times. My son has a 540i, and the 0 to 60 times are a little better. But I like the 530i overall drive better. I still think BMW could make a 6 that could provide a little more grunt.
BMWSeller: I delivered a new 5 last week to a 72 year old female. I showed her the i-drive last and she says "oh, this is just like a desktop" and "oh, this is just like a mouse". She's had the car less than a week and she is totally comfortable with and appreciates the benifits of I-drive.
joatmon Response: BINGO. You've just delivered to your new target audience.
Happy Motoring,
Jack