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BMW 5-Series Sedans

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Comments

  • mch2mch2 Member Posts: 36
    cmnott..Your Volvo analogy is probably the closest thing to the BMW "controversy". My wife and I have owned 4 Volvos (242 GT, 240, 780 & S40) and I was one of those who hated it when Volvo went away from the boxy body style. However, Volvo's decision was understandable. At the time Volvo was a struggling company trying to totally make over their image. I would also point out that Volvo tried to assuage fans of the boxy style by bridging the distance between the 240 and the S60 with the 760,740,850,940,960 & S70 (all pseudo boxy cars). Plus Volvo did not completely ditch the 240 right away, they continued to offer the 240 (as the 240 classic) until about the mid 90's. I wonder what would have happened if Volvo had gone directly from the 240 to the S60? Furthermore, the interior of the Volvo has not changed all that much. Why did BMW feel the need to radically changed the exterior and interior of the car at the same time!

    bmwwife...I said I would do it, I didn't say it would be easy :) As for what to tell them...how about the truth? If she is really not as pretty what's the point in lying about it? I would tell her that just because someone else is better looking does not mean that she is not good looking. I would feel the same way if I thought the E60 was a better looking car, it still wouldn't make me think less of the E39. Hey, I still drool when I see a pre-Bangle 7 series and how about that DB9? :).
  • cbgb1975cbgb1975 Member Posts: 51
    Riez, your baby was sitting on showroom floor today for a mere $74k plus...I had never seen red before and it was strong, very strong....hope you meet up with it in 2 years....black interior and great wheels.
  • cmr530icmr530i Member Posts: 278
    I happened to be looking at my Nov. 2003 issue of Consumer Reports magazine today and it rates the Falken Ziex ZE 512 as #1 in overall scoring. The scoring includes dry/wet braking, handling,hydroplaning, rolling resistance, snow traction, ice braking, ride, and noise. While I have not had first hand experience with them, I thought I'd share this with you.
  • bmwmrcbmwmrc Member Posts: 66
    I bought my '03 and sold my 1995 5. I remember when the E39 replaced my beautiful fully loaded 1995 5. I thought the evolution from the old 5 to the new 5 was progressive without being oppressive. The new changes were a welcome change that MADE SENSE. The new E60 is not!

    The new E60 feels like it was forced. As if BMW didn't know exactly how to improve on a car that Consumer Reports last year said, "It's the best car we've ever tested."

    I don't despise the E60. I just think the changes made were NOT evolutionary. They weren't even radical. I feel as if the changes were made to just make changes. To me it's BANGLE'S BUNGLE.

    I could have purchased an '03 or an '04. Hands down, I chose an '03. And I'm thrilled! Happy motoring all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The E39 looks long in the tooth compared to the E60. The E39 is a sharp looking car and BMW did a great job in moving it forward.

    I don't share the view the E60 is a "Bangles Blunder". That's that makes this forum fun, reading the passionate opinions.
  • beemer4mebeemer4me Member Posts: 42
    That's great, glad you like the E60. Better yet- you like the E60 without disparaging those who don't like it nor do you come off as a touter on some stock market message board : )
  • bmwwifebmwwife Member Posts: 29
    It's a 5 board ........

    Here's the top vehicles in this segment.
    1. 545i sport, jet black, 6-speed
    2. 545i sport, jet black, SMG
    3. 545i sport, black sapphire, 6-speed
    4. 545i sport, black sapphire, SMG
    5. 545i sport, silver gray, 6-speed
    6. 545i sport, silver gray, SMG
    7. 545i sport, jet black, auto
    8. 545i sport, black sapphire, auto
    9. 545i sport, silver gray, auto
    10.530i sport, jet black, 6-speed
  • riezriez Member Posts: 2,361
    Think there are at least five major issues with the E60:

    1. Styling: This is purely personal preference. Either you like it or you don't. (Personally, I do like the exterior but do not like the interior, esp. the dash.)

    2. Performance: Appears all who have driven it rave. It is a great performing car. (The electric steering might be a slight concern.)

    3. Engineering/Design (e.g., iDrive, ergonomics, human-car interface): Here is where I believe the car stumbles compared to both E39 as well as other cars. Better than the even worse E65 7 Series, but still works against making it easy, natural, and intuitive to fully enjoy driving the car.

    4. Price: Price seems to have risen dramatically from E39, esp. when looking at MSRPs on dealers' lots.

    5. Long-term ownership: Will all the electronic bells and whistles make the car costly to own in long run or unreliable? Only time will tell. I wouldn't want the first 2 model years of this platform. Think there will be a lot of bugs to work out.
  • hicairahicaira Member Posts: 276
    Yes, considering that they never worked out the bugs on the e39 I can see where that may be a concern.

    Drove a co-workers new e60 yesterday at lunch. Liked it better than I thought I would. Interior was actually an ergonomic improvement over the e39 (and I can see how it should save BMW a bundle in costs), but I expect the i-drive will take some getting used to. In two weeks, the owner feels he's mastered "most" of the functions - at least those that are important to driving. Oh, and HVAC has big round knobs that work independently of the i-drive. Smart move.

    No comment on the exterior. Beauty in a Bimmer is much more than skin deep.

    HiC
  • cmnottcmnott Member Posts: 200
    mch2, glad you get where I was going, it was simply to point out a totally understandable resistance to a totally different departure for the 5.

    IIRC, the previous 5 was around since 1996? Can't really blame them.

    riez, your No.3 makes a whole lot of sense. To me, this compares to the S-Type which was offensive to many Jaguar fans, that oval interior dash was redone a few years after to mimic the very popular XJ and X-Type layout. I wouldn't doubt it if the interior would be the first redesign before the interior.

    Personally, I thought that the 5er interior was looking tired and dated, maybe an interior slightly less innovative or adventurous would have been better.

    If anything, BMW has a lot of people talking about their cars.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    and I'll say it again: The appreciation of the Euro vs. the dollar is a big deal for European & Asian car manufacturers, unless they have assembly plants in North America.

    Somebody, somewhere has been absorbing 20 - 30% changes in exchange rates over the past year or two on BMWs & Audis. Now BMW has a new model and can write off the increases to all the "improvements." Ain't marketing great? Look for Audi to do something similar in the not-to-distant future.

    Most likely, the E60 is less expensive to manufacture than the E39 (in Munich), but the exchange rate more than wipes it out. . .and here we are.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • cmr530icmr530i Member Posts: 278
    IMO...There is a limit to what I'll pay for a car and the new E60's pricing is beyond that mark. It's not that I couldn't afford it, it's just that there are so many other things to do with my $$ to make life enjoyable. I am glad that I got my E39 when I did because BMW has priced me out of the new 5 series.
  • cbgb1975cbgb1975 Member Posts: 51
    Bmw reported nice sales today including 24 thousand new 5 series.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    BMW also acknowledges the receipt of four editors choice awards from Edmunds - the internet resource for the new 5 series and the 3 series coupe, convertible and sedan.
  • bentleyfam25bentleyfam25 Member Posts: 67
    Well, quarterly numbers are in for BMW, and the market has (initially) spoken. From today's analyst reports:

    "SG Securities: Denying speculation of a weak start, management expects 5 Series sales to exceed 2002 figures (172,000 units) before reaching more than 200,000 units in '04."

    "West LB Securities: The 5 series Q3 sales figure of 50,156 units was substantially above our expectations of 39,000 units, this being due to the unexpectedly high sell-off figures of the old 5 series in the USA, however. [Looks like people were grabbing the E39's off the lots -- Bentleyfam25.] Around 24,060 units of the new 5 series have been sold since July. We expect this momentum to increase further in Q4 in view of the current start of sales in the USA and the UK (October). According to BMW, retail sales stand at 38,000 units at the end of October."

    Sorry this doesn't format well:

    "West LB Securities (again):
    5 series unti sales:
    '01: 193,948
    '02: 172,323
    Q1'03: 34,476
    Q2 '03 41,152
    Q3 '03 50,156
    Q4 '03(E) 57,500
    '03E: 183,284
    '04E: 225,000
    '05E: 240,000
    '06 E: 235,000"

    The key figure is the Q3 to Q4 change, when all the E39's are off the lots and all that's being sold is E60. If you believe the above, the 5-series will do just fine, and whether we like it or not, Bangle et al were right. Sorry, all those who don't like the design (of which I'm one) -- at least for now, the E60 is succeeding quite well. Let's see if it's just early adopters or a real styling acceptance. Of course, it could be a well-time example of PR spin.

    Well, I said that if the numbers proved Bangle right about the market, I'd stop complaining about the design. Good luck to them all, and I hope we learn to like the E60 skins, 'cause whats under them is still the best car on the planet for the money.

    BTW -- if you like 3 series, the same reports say there's a 10% drop in 3 series sales. Perhaps a good time to bargain.

    Cheers--
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    In my opinion, the early sales figures for the new E60 are of limited "statistical" value. It seems that a lot of cars do well immediately following the introduction of a new model only to fizzle out after the pent up demand and new model interest dies down.

    I know of several people who didn't buy a 2003 E39 because they didn't want to own the last model year. However, in at least 1-2 cases, they are likely not to buy an E60 5 series and are condsidering competitive models.

    I believe a better judgement on the E60 will be able to be made in 4-6 months.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    BMW has the highest percentage of repeat/loyal buyers in the industry, so much so, that they are a marketing paradigm. New model + brand loyalty = good initial sales. This was to be expected.

    The true story will not be told until next year and especially the year after that. Will E60 do 7 years like previous successful platforms? Probably not because of BMW's plans to diversify. The 6 will cut into it as will styling improvements from MB.

    Am still dreaming of the elusive Porsche sedan. That's the company I'm really rooting for... need serious help with sales and stand to be taken over. What with the 7 being the ultimate Lincoln, the 6 being the ultimate Chrysler, and the 5 being the ultimate fruit basket, Porsche is the real ultimate driving machine... and looks like it too.
  • bentleyfam25bentleyfam25 Member Posts: 67
    ...with your point that early figures are suspect. Could be PR, or could be overoptimistic analysts. Still, that's what they're saying. I focus on the sales becasue BMW marketing might take some mild interest (and maybe a few chuckles) in our dislike of the new design, but they take a *lot* of interest in the overall acceptance of it.

    At our level, the practical effect of low sales would be an early redesign, or improved economics to boost sales (nice incentives, lower prices, higher residuals, etc). Good sales means that they'll stick with the design and economics they've got. Other than that, our complaints don't matter much. That's why I'm going to stop complaining, at this point. If sales are good, it doesn't matter (though its a lot of fun).

    Agree with you that a better judgment on the numbers will take place in 4-5 months. I'll be looking at the sales figures, but from a practical view: if they drop, and I decide that there isn't anything better than a BMW, I'll be able to negotiate a better deal.

    Designman, I've always agreed with your insightful and funny posts (5 is a fruit?), and I'm also surprised that Porsche didn't do a sedan instead of Cayenne (seems like the same investment effort, right?). A Porsche sedan could be a real category killer, if done right, particularly if they make it a more attractive design than the fruit...sorry, 5.

    Best --
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Cayenne... the ultimate Kenworth.

    I would never buy a car sight unseen, but if I did, it would be the Porsche sedan.

    ;-)
  • microrepairmicrorepair Member Posts: 508
    I was thinking about the comments on the idrive being a "mobile mouse" as it were. I use a computer many hours a day and while using it, I look at the screen to see what I'm doing. Does this mean that all the people driving the new 5 and 7 are looking at their nav screens to change stations and cabin temperature because they need to "mouse" around to make those changes? And therefore NOT watching the road?

    The old controls (buttons and knobs) are easily used while watching the road, after the driver has used them a few times, because of their unique location, shape, or action. Even a modern radio with digital pushbuttons for stations or tracks is a quick glance away. "karmikans" description of changing the track on a CD is truly scary for those of us on the same road with the new 5 & 7 machines..

    As for the looks, exterior or interior, that is purely a subjective issue. Everyone has a different idea of what is attractive. That's why both Picasso and Rembrandt are famous..
  • bmwwifebmwwife Member Posts: 29
    :) leaves us wondering how many Porsche sedans would sell. The beat goes on. Others follow.

    Will people be crashing them?
    Will sales drop?
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Good God!!!!! You're back! bmwwife IS bmwseller!

    Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • bmwmrcbmwmrc Member Posts: 66
    To prove the new E60 is doing well or poorly, will show up in the 3rd and 4th quarters, because of the overlap in the first quarter from the E39, and the multitude of the early adaptors, who have to have the latest and greatest. Once the intitial hyperbole and marketing crush simmers down, I believe the best judge of sales will be the latter half of the fiscal year. That will show me that the E60, while standing apart and on its own, is the car for loyal BMW customers as well as new segments.

    It would be interesting to compare the end of first year sales of the E60 with the end of first year sales of the E39 from 1997. Not that it would statistically be apples to apples, but at least it would point to market share domination by BMW.
  • karmikankarmikan Member Posts: 116
    So you're the same person! Just out of interest, do you split your sales commission or do you flip a coin to see who gets all of it?
  • vsaxenavsaxena Member Posts: 211
    I agree that the initial sales numbers are not really an indication of the future. The E39 was a dated design which did not appeal to the perception oriented buyers, which make up a large portion of the luxury car buyers. Since a significant number of luxury car buyers lease them, a new model definitely increases interest in the car. During the boom of 1998-2000 a lot of folks splurged on E39s who would be looking to replace their cars. Their willingness to trade their E39s for the E60s will be a true test of the E60.

    We need to wait for at least 9-12 months before the initial rush dies down. I think the 2004-2005 year will be the true test for the E60.
  • cheezhedcheezhed Member Posts: 44
    Despite the controversy on the looks of the E60 and its idrive, I like the E60 and think it will grow on us. I wouldn't buy it in its first year; electronics glitches, as with the 7, are a certainty. Stay tuned as the car will be refined inside and out, improving it, and making it more mainstream and universally accepted with time.
  • pen101pen101 Member Posts: 238
    I was reading consumer reports today and a recent issue did a luxury car test. They ranked the 7-series at 6th place of 7. Only the Town car was given a lower ranking. The December issue of Car and Driver also did a comparison of luxury cars. It ranked the 7-series third. Big issues were i-drive, interior and reliability. And now we have the E60. Will we be seeing similar results?

    If nothing else, with the E60, we are seeing the 5-series move into a new price category. A 2003MY 530i with PP, SP and Xenons could be had for around low 40's or less. My 2002MY 530i also cost in low 40's. Now with the same options, a 2004 will cost around $50K. I decided on my 530i because, among other things, it was a bigger car than the 330i (my original choice) for not much more. Now I can no longer say that. But we get i-drive and questionable reliability instead. Fortunately I still have 13 months left on my lease before I need to make a decision on my next car. Maybe something will change.
  • cbgb1975cbgb1975 Member Posts: 51
    Do you think rising euro will keep resale price of e39 relatively higher than one would normally expect with car style change? It seems it may be possible with this pricing spread between e39/e60.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Seems to me that E39 M50's are going for more than Blue Book values and CERTAINLY more than Edmunds TMVs. Anyone have a take on this... any info that is more definitive? Thanks.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Member Posts: 5,504
    that the rising (risen) Euro has improved the resale values of all BMW's (& Audi's, Merc's & Lexi), but it'll probably be most obvious in those brands in which the new cars are significantly more expensive than they were a year or two ago.

    That's the area in which BMW appears to stand out, at least for the moment.
    '08 Acura TSX, '17 Subaru Forester
  • glakerglaker Member Posts: 49
    I sat in the E60 last week and, while I can somewhat stomach the exterior, the interior did not appeal to me AT ALL! In fact, IMO the interior is very ugly compared to the E39.
  • bmwmrcbmwmrc Member Posts: 66
    I was not too fond of the interior either. I found it very austere. Modern compared to contemporary with a plastic feel to it.
  • beemer4mebeemer4me Member Posts: 42
    You're not another one of those biased E39 owners that can't embrace change are you? ggg :)
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    pen101: You are absolutely right about the deteriorating price/value tradeoff of the new E60 530i. It's only anecdotal, but I have a neighbor and an employee who were both waiting for the new E60 5-series to come out before making purchase decisions. Both would have happily bought a 2004 E39 530i at $42-45k, had BMW left good enough alone for another year or two. Instead, the neighbor bought a heavily discounted new 745i, stating that if the looks were heading in that direction and he had to put up with i-drive, he might as well get the extra space of the 7-series (4 kids). My employee went the other direction and is buying a new 330i 4-door "Performance Package" through ED in January. The price is $10k less than an E60 530i and the performance is comparable to the former 540i 6-speed.

    While only two examples, these were both likely E39 buyers that rejected the E60 for different reasons.

    designman: Regarding the M5, I can tell you that I am receiving a lot more inquiries from friends and strangers asking if I am interested in selling mine. It would appear that one wanting a fully equiped 2004 E60 545i 6-speed is going to be paying damn close to what I paid for a new 2002 M5. P.S. My answer remains "no", and it's likely to remain that way for at least a few years until BMW reintroduces something that interests me.
  • corkdsp1corkdsp1 Member Posts: 9
    Just wanted to add that I have 1200 miles so far and zero problems with the new 5. Loving this car!!

    Sorry so many on this forum dislike the car. response I have received is overwhelmingly positive.

    Orient blue/beige, manual, sports pckg, premium pckg, logic 7, adaptive headlights
  • ndmdndmd Member Posts: 27
    How do you like the Orient blue? I think I would like this color, because I believe it is the darkest of the blues. Is this correct? I have yet to see one in person. I have seen the mystic blue, but I am afraid this may be too bright in the long run.
  • merckxmerckx Member Posts: 565
    After seeing the new 5 at my local auto show,and being surprised how favorably it impressed me,I took one for a test drive on Saturday. Both at the show and the drive I was ready to be unimpressed, but ,really,the car floored me.
    The one at the show was a base 525 automatic-it even had vinyl seats. Some have dispraised it,but I very much loved its starkness. In contrast,I thought the interior of the Lexus LS430 and even the Benz E320 too glitzy in comparison.
    The i-drive is troublesome,sure,but without navigation,or a phone,or the many things fron the 745 left off the525,it didn't bother me too much...even the salesman said you could just about ignore it.
    The next day I drove a 530 manual. First off,the MUCH larger back seat makes the car much more desireable..that is one of the main reasons I didn't buy a 525 back in 2001.
    I loved the shift qualities,and in general,the car floored me. The styling I neither love nor hate...behind the wheel,I think it a huge improvement.
    it also seemed immensley solid..not a sound as it drove along.
  • corkdsp1corkdsp1 Member Posts: 9
    yes orient blue is a very dark blue in my biased opinion looks great.

    I find myself accelerating when curves approach rather than braking, handling is amazing)
  • jc1409jc1409 Member Posts: 3
    Just ordered a 545 for January delivery--silver grey, black int., sport, sound, pdc (seems to be a popular combination).

    I really love this car--this morning, I saw an '03 E39 next to an E60, and in my opinion the e39 looked old/tired in comparison. Wife was with me and agreed that the e60 was much nicer looking.

    I, too, like the e39, but like the e60 better. I bought an e320 in '02 after deciding the back seat of the e39 was too small, and the e60 now takes care of that problem.

    Now for the real problem...the long, long wait!
  • ptrekkerptrekker Member Posts: 51
    wait until you see the new TL. Uggggggh.
  • beemer4mebeemer4me Member Posts: 42
    I LIKE the new TL. As for the new E60, I'm all for the quieter ride and better suspension, but the one who controls the money says the butt looks ugly and she would never pay that much $$$ for anything with an ugly butt.( Hmmmm, made me wonder what happened to the missing 10 grand in our budget last year.) I finally saw the E60 in person, and it just happened to be parked next to an Altima in a parking garage. Dead ringer to be sure. I liked the Altima, just not with a BMW badge on it!
  • jc1409jc1409 Member Posts: 3
    Anyone have the Sirius sat. radio in an E60? Looks nice, I'm just wondering how the integration is with the iDrive screen, if any.
  • cmnottcmnott Member Posts: 200
    ...at the first few E60s, and now the Sport package. In the brochure, the sport rims didn't look great but in person it does suit the car. The 530 looks very masculine and serious in the Sport stance it has. I also had a close look at the tires, the new Bridgestone state of the art RE050. Sure would not look forward to replacing those!

    I also saw this very neat color, it looks almost brown, it looked very nice. It is definitely growing on me.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Do you know which are the most popular colors? Also are the solid or two-tone seats more popular? Spoiler/no spoiler? I'm looking at them and am thinking of resale if I decide to keep it for a year only.

    My choice would be silver with black solid seats, sans spoiler. Also like sterling/beige or blue/black. Red... like it but prefer anonymity.

    Radar a must. Got nailed doing a casual 80 last month. Luckily the nice police officer gave me only a "driving without due caution" ticket... something new in Jersey... no points, no record... 78 bucks, no muss, no fuss.

     
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Was at a Sirius demo trailer recently. A BMW rep was there also. They said you could get it set up through BMW.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    If you are looking to buy a used M5, I would be less concerned about color affecting resale than (a) finding one meticuously cared for and fully documented relative to service and (b) being patient to find a good deal.

    I have seen 2002 M5's advertised for anywhere from $70k+ down to $49.9k. The latter tempted me to call and, as it turns out, it was an executive relocating to Europe and the loss on the car was being picked up by his company. Two M5's in my garage didn't make much sense, but somebody got a heck of a deal.

    My M5 happens to be Sterling Gray with two tone grey and black seats. I would not have gotten the two tone seats myself, but this was a cancelled order at a great price. The only colors I suggest avoiding are black (the toughest to keep looking good) and white (IMO, does not look good on an M5).

    P.S. There were some minor improvements in the 2002 vs. 2001 model (nav system, etc.). The 2003 was essentially the same as the 2002.
  • joatmonjoatmon Member Posts: 315
    Let me say I'm sorry you received such a rude reception. I take it that your post was serious. I'll assume that you're interested in a BMW, probably a 5 series.

    You are headed in the right direction my friend. A stick certainly enhances driving, and a BMW with a stick is a good as it gets in a sedan.

    Now, where shall we learn about this. Well, I'd suggest a BMW center (dealer). Tell them you're interested in a BMW, and how you need to determine if a stick is for you. See if they'll take you out in a used car with a stick and give you the basics. They should because it'll certainly grow their potential market. After all, if you want a stick in a sedan, BMW is about the only stop left. (E55 with no stick, ugh)

    Happy Motoring,

    Jack
  • cjs2002cjs2002 Member Posts: 341
    Thank you for the information... and sorry about the mis-spellings... I'm a phyisics major, and we sometime lose our minds and just bable on with out checking for errors... oh well .. thank you though
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'm wrangling with emotions... M5 vs Porsche, roadster, etc. I'm on to a great used M5 deal but can't seem to pull the trigger.

    I was reading in another forum where someone referred to low-profile tires as connestoga wagon wheels... couldn't help but laugh and agree. I love the glory and power of the M5, but to me it comes with compromises, mainly the rough ride of those wheels and the shortcomings on switchbacks as compared to a Porsche.

    I agree with you about white 5's. I like white cars but somehow it doesn't work for me on any bimmer but the 3 convertible. I don't like black either but there is something perversely seductive about a black M5... like the F-117 stealth fighter jet.
  • habitat1habitat1 Member Posts: 4,282
    Tough decision between a Porsche and an M5.

    However, if you haven't done so, I think you owe yourself a lengthy test drive of the M5. IMO it is not any harsher of a ride than my former 540i 6-speed. Granted, I live in a temperate climate and most of my driving is on decent roads. An M5 at 10 degrees on the streets of Pittsburgh would be a harsh ride for sure. However, before you compare the M5 to a Conestoga wagon, try finding an old 930 Turbo to drive. The reason those cars didn't have airbags is that a speedbump would set them off.
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