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Comments
My wife's gray leather in her 98 LS 400 looks great. However, we both prefer the looks of the light (not white) Ecru in my LS 430. If you want plain jane, well that's OK, too.
My personal preference for the interior is the top quality red velour I had in my 90 LS400. This is not an available option in the LS 430. I would have gladly paid a $1000 premium for it. Perhaps the reason that it's not offered is a public perception that leather is more luxurious. I don't feel that way, but it is only my opinion and I see no reason why i should atempt to force it on others.
I also asked the dealer if they could reprogram the power outlets to run power when the car is off. The answer was that there was likely a way, but it may void the warranty (not a good answer!!)
Does anyone know a way to keep the juice running to a cell phone (using a plug-in outlet) with the car off?? I would appreciate any help on this.
Now I am certainly no expert at color matching, but I do know with certainty what appeals to me. My 92 (full spec, air suspension, etc.)(monotone) Burgandy with ivory/beige leather interior with (light, medium?) wood accents was my ideal.
When I first saw the dark cherry LS I was ready to buy/order one immediately. Then I discovered the interior limitations. Just recently my salesman showed me a "strange" one (not in the book)that had the beige interior but greytone wood accents. No sale.
I would personally think the greytone wood accents would look excellent in a charcoal interior. Not available.
I'm like you, I certainy wouldn't mind paying more, optionally, to get the exact car I really want, especially in this cost class. I would think many people would op for the extra cost rather than choose a combination determined by some committee (of engineers).
Face it, unless you have a wife and five or six kids you bought the Suburban more because you could afford to do so, not as a true utility. I would measure a businessman's purchase of an LS430 as being closer to a "utility" purchase than anyone's purchase of a Suburban.
Other than the "Kids" restrictions I mentioned, if you wanted true utility you would have bought a six cylinder "boxy" Jeep Cherokee with its three drive modes.
I rented and drove (because that was all the agency had available) a fully decked out Suburban from Havre to Lewistown MT and back in the harsh (road construction, nature dictated, in a canyon of muddy roads) wintertime last year. I firmly believe a Jeep Cherokee would have done the job in better "style" and with twice the gas mileage.
Really?
Tell that to the people who live in Cut Bank MT. There are parts of the US (Seattle) that are further north than some parts of Canada.
I happen to think that the Ecru interior is elegant and tasteful. I guess it's all "a matter of taste".
But then after they were off I came to realize how much better the car looked without them.
I guess that I must admit that I have a somewhat radical level of "taste" in the way a car "looks", I cannot comprehend why someone would destroy the basic image of a car by adding a bunch of gold badges.
Bu, on that point I do agree, to each his own.
Just because there are some frozen hell holes in the U.S. doesn't mean Lexus can or will cater to them.
Guess what..no Lexus dealers in North & South Dakota, Wyoming.
Another thing: Canadians have typically gotten more of those cold weather features than the US market gets. For example, you can't get heated seats on a Honda Accord in the US. In Canada all Honda Accord EX's come with heated seats standard. In Canada, the Lexus LS400 has always had headlight washers, the LS430 is the first Lexus in the US to have them. And if you notice, I don't think one luxury car has a heated grid front windshield in the US.
Supply & Demand rules the world.
The writer clearly hates the car yet can't come out and say it. The headline is:
"High-Tech Old-School Luxury"
Calls it an 'isolation chamber' - which may be true, but it's not said positively.
The review raves about the brakes but says its performance overall has 'middle-of-the-road numbers for a car in the $70,000 class'.
It says the car has "all the toys" and "a wide array of gizmos and geegaws" without saying anything positive about them or the interior even!
Here's some more:
"Certainly the car doesn't try to engage the driver. There's no real feel in the steering, via an enormous wheel that might have served an ocean liner."
"For all its previous-generation S-Class design cues and bulk and its Mercedes-replica shift-gate, the LS 430 is less European than American, an exemplar of a car the domestic companies no longer manufacture."
"The LS430 may set no new standards for automotive luxury, but it does an exceptional job of executing traditional elements with a heaping dose of modern technology."
Damning with faint praise indeed.
It's one of the worst written reviews I've ever seen in AutoWeek.
Fortunately, their owners comments (you guys probably!) gave the car raves.
Personally I dont even listen to these people, I know what I like.
I do enjoy reading these magazines and occassionally I learn something new from them, but I always remember that their primary focus is on horsepower and racetarck like handling.
The Porsche 911 has been their darling for many years now but yet they were the first to desparage it when Porsche added PSM becuase it takes away some of the thrill!
I didn't buy my LS400 for thrills and I don't measure its "performance" by 0-60 times against other vehicles in the class.
Many years ago I was picked up at the airport in Geneva by an executive of one of the swiss watch companies. There were 4 of us in the car and we drove for about 2 hours, at a quite high speed by american standards, sedately, to our destination. Today I can't tell you for sure if the car was a BMW or MB, we had a nice comfortable ride during which the conversation amongst the four of us touched on many subjects.
That's why most of us buy a BMW, MS, or Lexus in the LS class, if we want to be boy-racers then we would buy something appropreate to that need.
First let me say that I firmly believe that the LS400, 430 is the best car one can buy for the money there is today.
But ALL of the Lexus vehcicles share two common defects. First, the interior surface of the windshield will suddenly fog over, spontaneously, in certain climatic conditions. AND, in addition, they all lack the ability to QUICKLY remove condensation from the interior windshield surface.
Quietness, a danger!
About half of the overall industry, and the majority of the Japanese industry, use climate controls designed and manufactured by Denso USA, or NipponDenso. In any car in the OTHER half when you activate the defog or demist function you instantaneously get airflow to the windshield which has been "dehumidified" by raising, heating, it. Sometimes this airflow will be further dehumidified through the use of the A/C compressor. The A/C compressor CANNOT be used to dehumidify airflow below 32F OAT and SHOULD NOT be used below about 47F, where the liklihood of positive effects has declined precipetously.
In a Lexus when the A/C compressor is shut down inadvertantly, or unknowingly, by the operator, or automatically by the system design once the OAT declines to 32F, in a cold wintertime climate then there is a very high probability of the windshield fogging over shortly thereafter.
Throughout the winter of 91-92 I had numerous instances of instantaneous fogging over of the windshield. Some of these, granted, were on a mountain pass with quite cold temperatures, not something I would refer to as a hellhole, but extreme from the norm for the Seattle area. But I also had it happen when the cliamte was fairly temperate. One of the things that puzzled me was that the Lexus customer service personnel kept advising me to be sure the system was in flow-through mode. They kept saying, yes, I know the flow-through indicator is on, but press the button anyway to be sure.
It was only after I purchased the shop manuals that I began to understand the reasons behind their instructions. On the 92 LS there are two indicator lights one for recirc and another for flow-thru, a binary function, or so I thought!
It turns out that if the system is in fully automatic mode then the condition of these indicators can be meaningless. In fully automatic mode the system "meters" the amount of incoming airflow from the outside as one of the parameters for controlling, regulating, interior
temperatures. Quietness rules. In wintertime when the outside air temperature is quite low the amount of this cold air allowed to enter the cabin might be quite low. It isn't that the system doesn't have the capacity to heat this cold airflow to a comfortable level, I believe it is because a higher level of airflow means a higher blower speed and more cabin noise.
What I didn't understand, and something Lexus didn't want to tell me in a direct fashion, was that my 92 Lexus's inlet airflow controls had two modes, automatic and manual, but no indication to the operator of which mode was actaully active at any given time. IT turned out that what they were saying to me was, "if you want to be sure the system to be in actual flow-through mode, you MUST depress the flow-through button each and every time you start the car, otherwise it "might" be in automatic mode and that circumstance "might" allow the cabin humidity to rise to dangerous levels.
In 1993 I had a Lexus expert testify in a court of law that the mistake I made was not manually re-activating the A/C upon the occurance of this circumsatnce, the A/C being shut down automatically because the OAT declined below 32F. Today I have very little doubt that he knew EXACTLY what was wrong with my Lexus.
Here it is 2001 and MB now has a humidity detection system which is used to control, meter, fresh air into the cabin such that the interior humidity level does not reach dangerous levels. MB is also one of the cars, as are most cars of eurpoean manufacture, that is designed to use HEAT to remove condensation.
Read the posts under defog/demist gone awry for more detail on this subject.
Second design flaw.
The Lexus Climate control, in fully automatic mode, will automatically switch the airflow routing mode from footwell to mixed and then to upper body once the interior cabin ambient air temperature approaches, then reaches, the temperature set by the operator. EVEN IN THE DEAD OF WINTER, with two feet of snow everywhere around and sub-freezing outside temperatures.
Almost everyone, and certainly most HVAC engineers, have known for many, many years that human body temperatures are very greatly affected by the Radiant temperatures of surrounding objects.
Radiant temperature effects contribute very greatly to human body comfort. The atmosphere surrounding our body can be a very comfortable 72F and we will still feel, no, be chilled, if the objects "in view" of our bodies are cold.
TRW has just announced that by 2004 vehicles for which they supply climate controls will have the ability to measure radiant heating effects and adjust the system accordingly.
I would have thought that in the meantime Lexus designers would have the good sense to know that if their own outside air temperature sensor indicates that the outside air temperature is COLD then it would be discomforting to have the system airflow routed to your face or upper body.
And, oh, by the way, Lexus "system" outlet airflow is not fully "mixed", some of the airflow which has passed through the A/C evaporator (and possibly dehumidified also) bypasses the heater core and is routed directly to the face and upper body outlets. If you have by chance noticed that the airflow to these outlets seems cooler that the simultaneous airflow to the footwell then you are correct, the footwell airflow will be as much as 20F warmer.
That is also what contributes to the rapid and intermittent fogging over of the windshield.
But if we keep our mouth shut about our likes and dislikes, and about what we believe are actual defects, how will Lexus know to improve the breed?
I've *NEVER* experienced a fogged windshield or uncomfortable airflow in either of my Lexus vehicles. One's a '99 (RX300) and the other is a 2000 (GS400).
I take it you took Lexus to court in '93 because you felt your car was dangerous, or was this related to an accident where you felt Lexus was at fault (perhaps legitimately, when Lexus was building cars 10 years ago)?
I removed your series of posts in which you posted verbatim the copyrighted article from AutoWeek. If you can find a link to that article, you are free to post that, but neither your Terms of Use in Town Hall nor the copyright belonging to AutoWeek allows you to post the article here.
Pat
Host
Sedans and Women's Auto Center Message Boards
Jack
I don't mind spirited discussions, but when it gets into personal attacks, it becomes futile.
And yes, I have several experiences with the 92 that I would deem hazardous, in the extreme. I have made several modications to the 92 that I think are important.
1. I moved the OAT sensor into the front of the right front wheel well where it is not subject to the radiant heat from the engine cooling radiator. I notice many manufacturers are now mounting this sensor on the drivers side rear view mirror. None of this solves the problem of the A/C operating unduly after the car is stored overnight in a relatively warm garage. I saw one post recently wherein an owner (GM) was complaining about an OAT indication that didn't read true until he had driven a few miles each morning, undoubtedly a (mis)step in the right direction.
2. I added a switch and 2800 ohm resistor in series with the OAT sensor such that in wintertime I can actuate the switch and at any OAT below 47F the system will get a false reading of below 32F and NEVER activate the A/C compressor. There was an unexpected pleasant result from this. The cabin warms up much quicker each morning becuase the system "thinks" it is 15F colder outside than it actually is.
3. I added a switch in series with the interior temperature sensor such that by operating this switch I add about 200 ohms to this sensor, This causes the system to immediately increase the exit air temperature if I have need to quickly defog/demist the front windshield. Lexus uses the A/C system compressor EXCLUSIVELY to dehumidify the airflow and thus help prevent and remove condensation from the interior windshield surface. The liklihood of the A/C being effective at doing this is very low below about 45-50F, and non-existent once Lexus itself automatically shuts down the A/C compressor (It canot be manually re-started, and it would still be useless even if one could) when the OAT declines below 32F.
Lexus provides ABSOLUTELY no back up defog/demist system other than the A/C compressor. As for as I know any manufacturer that does not use the Denso USA HVAC design use HEATED airflow, some in the EXTREME (in conjunction with the A/C above 47F), to decrease the relative humidity and thus help to remove condensation from the windshield.
4. I added four 12V muffin fans, two within each rear quarter panel, in a fashion such that when activated they serve to quickly extract (humid) cabin air. If I see even a wisp of condensation begin to form on the windshield I immediately activate both of these (3,4) switches and then the front defog function. Activating 3 will cause the system to "think" the cabin temperature is far below setpoint and it will then automatically, and quickly, increase the exit airflow temperature and the blower speed. All of this together resulting in lots of heated airflow to a (likely COLD) windshield which has just begun to fog over. Activating switch #4 aids in quickly removing the evaporated moisture and humidity from the car's atmosphere. The extraction fans also automatically activate when the rear window defrost function is used.
5. When I park the car in the garage at night I ALWAYS crack the sunroof open, regardless of season, so that all of the moisture condensed onto the evaporator vanes will not be still "trapped" within the cabin when I start out the next morning. I recently noticed that Saturn starts up and runs the system blower about ten minutes after shutdown for this same reason.
I have the Lexus shop manuals for both my 2000 GS and the 2000 Rx and I have found no indication that the climate control design has been changed in any manner of these concerns. I have not made any of these changes to the GS becuase we really do not plan to use it all that much in wintertime. I have added the OAT switch and resistor to the RX to surpress the undue operation of the A/C compressor, and I do plan to add the muffin fans soon. Since increasing the temperature setpoint on the RX simply involves a quick clockwise "flick" of a rotary knob I don't see the need for a switch for that functionality.
Given the rather sparse populations of these states, I can understand there being no Lexus dealerships, but does that also mean there are not many Lexii driven through or around in these states?
My 92 LS was there, Glacier Park, central Montana, three or four times, the 2000 GS twice already, and the 2000 RX once.
But I don't remember having any complaints specific to these areas, or any complaints about Lexus operation in these areas at all for that matter.
Having quite thoroughly read an accident report from KY wherein two people died after mysteriously leaving the roadbed/freeway on a bright and sunny but cold day I have to wonder if the instantaneous windshield fogging instance might have played a hand in that.
Browse the NHTSA consumer complaints for Toyota and Lexus and windshield fogging or lack of adequate defogging capability, or just search for instances of windshield fogging.
I suspect that the most common occurances of this problem will be found to be circumstances wherein the vehicle is driven, continuously, no stops, from a relatively warm, 45-65F, possibly humid area, into an area of temperatures below 37F, basically colder climates and thus lower humidities predominate.
And yes, the further north you travel, the more likely you will encounter these circumstances.
Fate IS the Hunter!
I have seen a few new LS430s on the road, and I must say the look is growing on me, particularly the side and rear views.
I've only seen silver ones on the road so far!
But the look is definitely growing on me.
Please read all of the posts before you accuse me of "flaming" someone. Thank you.
M
First time poster, so let me introduce myself first. I got my 2001 LS430 Millennium Silver just after T-day last year and love the car. The replaced car was a 1994 BMW 740iL. Other cars seriously considered, BMW 740iL, Mercedes E and S class. Lexus won hands down both in features and price. Your many comments on this board helped in making the decision.
The reason for my post. Is it worth it to buy the pre-paid maintenance? I have had the free 1,000 and 5,000 mile maintenance checks and they offer the following pre-paid options:
2 years/30,000 miles - $730
3 years/45,000 miles - $1,012
Includes planned service at every 5,000 miles and would save you $464 / $765 respectively compared to a pay as you go.
It would appear to be a good deal, especially considering past experience with BMW (no other look quite like the one for the first time BMW owner on seeing the Inspection I or II bill). I have had interesting service experience so far with Lexus, I will relate in another post. So, I would appreciate any all comments.
One car was a $61,000 Mark Levinson/NAV car with the 17" wheels (not chromed)...it's beautiful in the Black Cherry color exterior w/ a Black Leather interior...we leased it for 39 months...total at start including 1st month, tax,tag and whatever else they include was $1400...I am allowed 12,000 miles annually...and my monthly payment was $777 + tax...
The second car is a Black exterior with Black Leather but a Base car...the $55,795 model...on a purchase for $49,300 + tax(of course)...
Let me know...because the next closest price I got locally was a purchase of a Base car...for $51,000 and from one dealer who wouldn't budge a dollar off of the $55,795 list...says he sells them all day long at that price...I could not believe that but maybe some people do really pay list price!!!
I now constantly monitor the situation in my LS430, and am quick to move the control to flow' if the AC is not on. I'll pick through your rather long post to see if there is a more reliable way, (without the hassles of moving parts, etc. I'm no engineer!).
Most of the fogging problems occur when the A/C compressor is stopped after some period of operation in a reasonably humid environment. In this circumstance the cooling evaporator vanes might still be choked, coated, with fine moisture droplets that have not accumulated enough individual mass for their viscosity(?) to be overcome by gravity.
It becomes a little frustrating but this most often happens shortly after turning off the defog system.
But anything that causes the A/C compressor to cycle off, such as OAT declining below 35F, for a long enough period for the evaporator vanes' temperature to start to rise can cause the effect.
Park the cars in a garage at night then open/crack the sunroof and/or windows so the moisture trapped within the system plenum and on the evaporator vanes from the previous days operation can evaporate into the atmosphere outside the car and not be there silently waiting for you when you drive out in the cold humid morning air.
The other choice is to turn the system blower all the way up, be sure the system is in flow-thru, and open the rear windows slightly for about ten minutes before you shut the car down last thing in the evening.
Lexus does have out-flow capability along the lower edge of the rear window and into the trunk space in the GS and LS but it is fairly restrictive. Since the final out-flow is at the bottom of the rear quarter panels it may also be adversely affected by airflow over and under the body of the car.
As aerodynamic as these cars are I still suspect a bit of positive air pressure will exist under the rear of the car at any reasonable highway speed.
How annoying would THAT be? Got another idea - keep a big towel on the dash and if it ever fogs up grab the towel and wipe the windshield!
If it were April 1st I'd think you were making this stuff up.
Their service is too slow, and more importantly, Their prices are unbelievably high, even with their discount packages. And I don't think there is a quality/level-of-difficulty issue with any scheduled maintenance item. Go to Jiffy Lube or Firestone, etc. and save yourself a bundle.
Repair work, ok, go to Lexus. For repairs there could be issues regarding quality of parts and/or skill level/trustworthiness of the labor. But routine, scheduled maintenance? Forget it!
I was southbound (we need not address SPEED) on I5 just south of McChord AFB, I was in the left lane and it was blustery and raining. The windshield started to fog over slowly and ever so slightly so I activated the front defrost function.
BAMM! Almost instantaneously the windshield was completely fogged over and I had virtually no forward vision. Now I suddenly found myself watching the jersey barrier out the side window for guidance so I could maybe remain centered in my own lane while at the same time slowing and trying to find a space amonst the other traffic to move right and eventually to the shoulder.
At the same time I was trying to "modulate" the climate controls, toggling the heat setpoint up, increasing the blower speed, etc, in order to quickly clear the windshield. For some period of time, probably very short although it didn't seem so at the time, things just kept getting worse regardless of what I did. Finally my wife took over those duties, "saying just drive, I'll do that".
You can be certain that for some period after that I didn't drive the car without a large dry towell by my side.
You want to know how this happened?
It took me about two years to sort it all out but here is my best "educated" guess.
It was a relatively cold and wet January morning, about 6AM, when we left our home about ten miles north of Bellevue WA. We stopped by our offices for about 15-20 minutes to pick up some sales material.
While the car sat outside of the office that morning the OAT sensor become inordinately warmed through radiant heat from the engine cooling radiator, resulting in the A/C compressor being run for some period of time after we drove away from the office.
After the sensor cooled to true ambient the compressor was shut down and the moisture it had condensed onto the evaporator vanes started to evaporate into the incoming airstream. About halfway to Tacoma the windshield started to fog over and I activated the defrost/defog function. It worked.
Shortly after the windshield cleared I returned the system to normal operation.
When we left home that morning the windshield would have been fairly warm from spending the night in a heated garage. Once we reached south Tacoma, about 35-40 miles distance, at the speeds I was traveling it would likely have been quite thoroughly chilled by the cold impinging airflow on the outside surface.
In the Lexus, once the cabin temperature reaches the temperature setpoint, the system goes into maintain, or "comfort" mode, it now routes relatively cool airflow to the dash outlet vents. The way the system works NOW is that when the defrost function is activated the airflow provided will be about 15-20F cooler than what is simulatneously routed to the footwell. Part of the effects of the "maintain" functionality is to severely decrease the amount of incoming fresh air. Unless you manually depress the flow-through button, the amount of incoming fresh air will be regulated, limited, by the system in order to keep the "intrusiveness" of the system low, blower speed at "hush" level, etc.
What this means to you is that the system can be much closer to a "recirc" mode than it is to "flow-through", although the flow-through indicator is on. In the 92 model, ignore the "auto" climate control mode light, it is meaningless with regards to the recirc-flow-thru mode. I think this facet was fixed by 94.
Unless you explicitly REMEMBER depressing the flow-through mode button YOURSELF, since you last started the car, it may be giving a flow-through indication when it is NOT in that mode at all!
So, in retrospect I probably did the wrong thing first, Since it was the simplest thing to do I likely turned the blower speed to high first since that was a simple, single, button depression. That of course sent even more of the system's humid airflow toward the windshield for the moisture to be condensed on its cold chilled surface.
There was a post about a 2000 Tahoe that had the same problem (in Texas) but it seems to have been lost. Luckily I made a copy to send to a friend so if anyone would like one let me know.
If you do use them be sure you don't get conned into allowing them to do the ROUGH DUTY service schedule.
Anyway, thanks for the explanation. I'm sure that was a harrowing experience.
As for fogging the windscreen, it's usually a simple matter of a driver's unsuspecting and unintentional action of bringing the temperature and dew points together -causing fog/condensation. It happens in jet aircraft all the time when they descend from cold altitudes quickly down to warmer altitudes for landing. The windscreen is cold soaked and when it initially meets warmer air, it fogs over almost instantaneously. The Learjet, for example, has a checklist item calling for turning on windscreen heat about 20 minutes prior to descent, to prevent or minimize this problem. In this way, the temperature changeover is less sudden (as in your car example) and less devastating (also as in your car example). The jet is using warm air on the OUTSIDE of the windscreen to more closely equalize with the inside. Your car problem is the reverse in that regard. Your initial application of "warmer" inside defrost air only worsens the problem initially, until the heated air warms thru and equalizes the windscreen. An initial blast of cooler air (even A/C) would be more subtle, I believe in lessening the effect.
Sorry - that was more than I intended on that but got carried away.
And ljflx, I see you have re-engaged in that (useless IMO) battle of styling mavens and copy cat posting on the 2nd lux board. They simply and continuously refuse to see how anyone could make a different choice than theirs and their reasoning often borders on truly astounding. That "terrorist" argument still boggles my mind. At the same time, they still refer to their horrible maintenance experiences and the "stupidity" of their sales and service staff. Yet they stand firm and attack all who dare disbelieve. As you can see, the argument has merely returned to where it began and will not change - I used to believe that your/our points on value, reliability, comfort, quiet, features vs. their dubious claim on styling/handling were truly foolproof. But one must remember, Nothing is foolproof for the sufficiently talented fool.
I really shouldn't have even mentioned the issue of the indicator ambiguity since even in the 94 ANY function activated manually will extinguish the automatic mode light. So if you don't remember which function you manually over-rode rule number one applies.
1. The only way to be sure that the incoming air vane is fully open is to KNOW that you have depressed that function since last starting the car.