Volvo S60

pmvi · January 2001

gemwaterloo:
I commend you on your taste in cars. Are you referring to the S60 T5, or the 2.4T? I have driven the A6 extensively (not 2.7 Turbo, though), and have ordered an S60 T5, so I'll try to compare a few things.

Some pros for the Audi: AWD, bigger back seat & trunk, more stylish interior, probably will have less "bugs" since it's been around a few years.

Some pros for the Volvo: definitely safer, less expensive, I'm pretty sure the T5 is still quite a bit faster, newer model- so it won't look old for a long time.

To be honest, if the Audi had the safety of the Volvo and costed a bit less, I would go for it.

equalizer1 · January 2001

First of all the S60 is new, and more than likely has not gone through the safety tests that the Audi has.

What makes you think the S60 is safer than the Audi? They both have the same safety equipment, and both companies have excellent reputations for safety.

To say you bought the S60 because it is "definitely" safer than the Audi is ludicrous. You said that you would have bought the Audi had it been safer. I would like to see documentation that supports this.

Signed, an Audi owner who loves the S60 and S80, but wouldn't buy either just for safety reasons, as most European cars are in the top of the safety ranks. Why don't you get a BMW? They keep on coming out on top in all safety crash tests, higher than the Volvo.

pmvi · January 2001

Look, I'm not really concerned what you think. I did my research, and came to my conclusions which I believe are correct. From the tone of your post, I don't think you've done as much research as I have done. And as far as the BMW's--we weren't talking about them, and I don't care to own one though I agree they are excellent cars.

Please notice that I did not malign the A6, I like that car a lot. Also, please note that I also referenced the PRICE of the car. One thing I didn't expand on too much was exterior styling--since it is very subjective, and since both are nice looking cars: I happen to like the S60's looks a bit better.

So, keep on enjoying your Audi (which one do you have?), and I hope that I will enjoy my S60.

kathystanton · January 2001

Can you just drop into the factory and buy a new US equipped car? What kind of selection might be available? It seems with the fluctuating $ the price should be better than the fixed price they post on the web site. What's up?

s1gins · January 2001

Equalizer is correct about the relative safety of the two cars. While Volvo has always marketed themselves as safe vehicles, in reality they are no more safe than other comparable vehicles. This is not an attack, I am just wondering what facts brought you to the safer conclusion.

pmvi · January 2001

Don't worry, I'm not that defensive despite my earlier post.

The new #1 rated passenger car for safety both in Europe and U.S. is the Volvo S80. Yes, the S60 is shorter, but is built on the same ("safety cage") platform and has the same interior features (8 airbags, including full side curtain bags). On the Audi, the rear seat side airbags are optional, and they don't have the curtain bags to better protect the head in side impacts and rollovers. All these safety features on the Volvo are standard. The side impact protection is not limited to the airbags though, but also involves the structure of the car--including the wider "shoulders". Also, unless I am mistaken, their whiplash protection system is not equaled by the Audi.

Once again, I never criticized the Audi or said it was unsafe. It is a bigger and more expensive car, which however is not safer. Also, on a subjective level, I experienced the S60 to have a more solid and nimble feel. Perhaps in my original post, I should have said "in my opinion". But why aren't you arguing with other things I said (like the Audi has a better interior or may be more reliable)? But now that you have me thinking, there are two other things which "IMO" are better on the Volvo: 1. the Seats (this isn't a knock on the Audi--the Volvo just has amazingly comfortable and supportive seats), and 2. the Stereo (yes, I think the volvo's "audiomax" (300 watts, 13 speakers...) is even better than the audi/bose.

I agree that other car manufacturers (especially the Germans) have proven a commitment to superior safety engineering. I also agree that the Audi A6 2.7T is a great choice!

The person who requested the comparison should check out both cars, and decide which one fits them best!

snoopdug · January 2001

I agree with PMVI. While I love the Audi, and think that it is a safe car, it is not as safe as the Volvo. With the safety cage,8 airbags, side curtains, whiplash protection system and the laminated windows (which won't shatter in a collision and may repel a carjacking), the Volvo is safer (unless you end up underwater, not uncommon in some states, like Florida...then you might not want the laminated windows which will not shatter, even using a hammer).

Disclosure: I own a S60 T5 manual and absolutely love it.

It has performed very well in Chicago's ubiquitous and annoying snow and ice this winter. (I did not get the DSTC due to a mistake in ordering, but this would just increase the car's safety).

phenix796 · January 2001

Have an s60 2.4t. Very nice car except the remotes are problematic. When you take delivery on your car, make sure dealer goes through the whole locking..arming..unlocking shtick in detail. The 2 remotes I have are malfunctioning and I am getting alarms at 2am...Brought to dealer and they said they could not find anything wrong. I surfed for an answer and found other owners with similar probs. It seems that the remotes are poor design and the panic button (red) sticks in the remote. Since there is no l.e.d. to let you know this, it sets of the alarm, and you can't shut it off because the button is stuck. You have to use your keys on the door. What a nitemare! My dealer said Volvo Tech HQ in Jersey is aware of the problems with remotes/door locks/alarm, but I have had no fix yet. I have seen on the net where dealers are putting o-rings inside the remote case to disable the panic buttons. All this leading edge technology...spoiled by bad design in the remote fobs. I have backed off the screw a couple turns so the damn panic button works freely but the design is faulty. If you screw it down tight and water resistant...that panic button is going to hang up and make your life miserable! Dealer said no way to program out the panic mode...

ctrammell · January 2001

Interesting article in today's (Jan 11) Wall Street Journal concerning Volvo's launch of the S60. The article indicated this is the first car Volvo launched without a print and TV campaign. Instead, they attempted to do it just via the Internet and partnering with AOL. The article went on to say that Ford who now owns Volvo and the Volve dealers were upset and concerned that sales have not taken off. From launch in mid-Oct. through end of year a total of only 2,994 vehicles had been sold.

stickguy · January 2001

They are advertising now at least.

john151 · January 2001

What exactly is the S60 promotion regarding AOL?

dphan · January 2001

I got my 2.4T on Monday and have been having problems with the car alarm and car alarm remote ever since. My sales representative never used the emotes to open and close car when we took delivery of the door and when he showed us the car. I guess he knew the emotes and car alarm was a problem.

Problem 1. One of the emotes does not even work.

Problem 2. The "other remote" cannot lock the car. Each failed attempt would make the alarm go off. I then would have to turn the engine on and off and then lock the car with the keys. If I just try to lock, unlock, and lock the car with the keys without turning on and off the engine, the alarm will go off every ten minutes.

Problem 3. The "remote remote" will unlock the car only 50% of the time. On each failed attempt of unlocking the car the alarm would go off. I then would have to unlock the car with the keys and turn on and off the engine. If I just unlock the car with the keys without turning on and off the engine the alarm would go off and continue to go off every ten minutes. I didn't know about this last part until yesterday evening when I cam home from work. I received phone message from almost all my neighbors that the car alarm had been going off since 6:30 am.

Please help me.

S. To Gene = Phenix796: Please tell me where you went on the net to find out that others were having this problems. I am going to give my dealership and Volvo failing grade marks if they don't find an answer soon to this problem.

PS2. To Any Volvo Representative who might be reading this, will Volvo reimburse or install an after market car alarm for one that is obviously defective.

equalizer1 · January 2001

Whoa! Where are you people getting your information from.

I agree that Volvo's seats are the best in the industry. I cannot comment on the stereo, but besides these two factors, you are all wrong. All Audi's come standard with sideguard curtains, just like the Volvo, and the Audi has the extra added safety feature of quattro, which is advantageous in dry and inclemate weather, so it is 6 of one..........

Both are really nice cars, and both are very safe. I own an A4 2.8, but my neighbor just got an S60. I'm not sure which model it is, but since I always thought the S80 was a great looking car, the S60 really appeals to me as well. Let's just hope it is more reliable than the S80. Maybe Volvo learned from the S80's poor reliability ratings.

Enjoy your cars, you made a good choice. While the S60 is not touted to be as sporty as the A4 or 3 series, maybe that's not the primary reason people buy cars.

Good luck!

pmvi · January 2001

Equalizer1:
I stand corrected on the curtain airbag, but the rear passenger airbags "are" an option on the Audi. As far as where I got this info: Carpoint.com. As for the rest of our info being "wrong", are you saying that the Volvo doesn't have side laminated security windows or safety cage construction? Nobody ever said the Audi doesn't have great safety features, but there are still those of us who feel a bit safer in the Volvo. Live with it!

Also, by the logic of your earlier post, your A4 doesn't compete, since it is smaller and usually less expensive (I do not feel that way though). Depending on one's criteria, the S60 definitely can compete with the A6, and actually has slightly more front passenger room than the A6 (smaller in the rear). As for the S60 not being touted as being as sporty as an A4, I am hereby "touting" the T5 to be more sporty than your A4 2.8. The S60 is MUCH MUCH faster than any A4 (unless you count the S4, which once again is much more expensive). I suspect the Quattro has better handling and steering, but I think the T5 decisively beats the FWD Audis in total performance. For those who want AWD (which is a great feature for many, but not for me in Southern California), the S60 will offer this next year (Haldex based system--which is quite a good one).

Equalizer1, I don't think we're actually that far apart in our opinions. I do think you are a bit arrogant though. I prefer to decide which cars I compare than to rely on what you, or "they" determine car classes/segments to be.

drewsrx · January 2001

Safety Facts-Volvo vs. Audi

The new Volvo S60 and new V70 have not been tested by the major objective test centers because they are new vehicles. The new S60 and new V70 are based on the same platform as the Volvo S80. The 2001 Volvo S80 did better than the both the new BMW 5-series and 3-series, in both NCAP and IIHS. The Volvo S80 also has the best side impact and rear impact test scores ever recorded.

These are the results that have been done thus far:

Euro-NCAP Test Scores (Out of 100%)

Audi A4 - Front (44%) Side (56%) Overall (50%)
Volvo S40 - Front (75%) Side (78%) Overall (76%)

Audi A6 - Front (56%) Side (78%) Overall (68%)
Volvo S80 - Front (69%) Side (100%) Overall (85%)

IIHS Test Scores (40 mph offset crash)

Audi A6 - Acceptable (Lowest Rated In Class)
Volvo S80 - Good & Best Pick (Highest Rated In Class)

NHSTA Test Scores (Out of 5)

Audi A8 - Front Driver (5) Front Passenger (5)
Volvo S80 - Front Driver (5) Front Passenger (5) Side Left (5) Side Right (5)

rollie · January 2001

Regarding post #216:

drewsrx, a nice summary. The only thing I know of that you missed is the fact that the WHIPS system in the S80 (and all new Volvos) set the IIHS' benchmark scores for lowest neck and spine injuries in rear-end collisions.

Overall, there isn't another car that has scored as consistently at the top in all organizations' crash tests like the S80 but I SUSPECT that based on the EuroNCAP tests the 9-5 (which went head-to-head with the S80 and did slightly better in many categories) comes closest followed by the 5 series BMW. In the uber-bucks category I would think the S-class and A8 would do VERY well but not many organizations seem willing to test these pricey machines.

Just my 2 centavos worth...

Thanks.

-rdo
rdollie@home.com

equalizer1 · January 2001

I don't know where you are getting your arrogance from, but you are the arrogant one, not I. You are seemingly trying to defend a purchase that you don't seem entirely sure about.

I know my Audi is safe, is a great performing car in every way (which BTW, the S60, except for speed in the T5), will never come close to the handling characteristics of the A4. FYI, The S60 was manufactured to go squarely against the 3 series and A4, so although it might be bigger in size than those two cars, and more in line in size with the A6 and 5 series, it's market is against the smaller cars, just like the Acura TL and other larger cars. The S80 is the competition for the A6 and 5 series.

Also, the Volvo's haldex system will not come close to the Audi's quattro, which has been around over 20 years, and has improved dramatically with every new Audi edition. Quattro makes a huge difference in performance characteristics, whether you live in California, or Alaska.

Look, I am not putting down the S60 at all. In fact, when I am ready to look for another car in a little over a year, that will be second on my list behind the new A4, which will be coming this summer.

It's silly to argue over these insignificant points. Both are great cars, both will appeal to different audiences and most importantly, both are very safe cars, as I have stated in my posts above.

Rnjoy your car, it's a beautiful car.

equalizer1 · January 2001

There have been many things written about rear side airbags. They can be unsafe for small children. That is why it is an option on many cars, including the Audi and BMW. I think it should be an option on the Volvos as well.

The only safety device that you can get on the Volvo which you can't get on the Audi is the WHIPS system. But then again, you can't get AWD on the Volvo yet, so again we're pretty much tied.

texasshopper · January 2001

The promotion is still on; I just printed out a certificate last night that is good through March 15.

Volvo is offering to pay for up to $2100 in options, just by visiting their revolvolution.com website and building your own virtual car there. (This of course generates a sales lead for the dealer you pick.) But the trick is you have to do it through AOL.

Once you build your car, you get to pick 6 items from a list of 10. They options include: 10-disc CD changer, racks for overhead items (bikes, skis), and some interior enhancements.

I haven't used AOL since 1994, but I wanted to take advantage of a freebie, so I went to aol.com and downloaded the new 6.0 software. (You get a 30-day AOL trial for free.) After 15 minutes of downloading and installing, I launched AOL and connected to revolvolution.com via the AOL browser. Then you see a new option pop up (not there with a regular connection) that tells you how to claim the Volvo freebies.

The new 6.0 AOL software installs a lot more cleanly than previous versions, and it didn't mess with my existing DSL connection. (Of course, you can use your existing DSL to connect to AOL, so you get fast response and no more busy signals.) I haven't tried uninstalling AOL yet, and perhaps I will at the end of my free month - that may be a bigger chore.

Anyway, I have a certificate in hand that allows me to get the add-ons if/when I buy the S60. Pretty cool.

drewsrx · January 2001

Volvo Haldex vs. Audi Quattro, this is a topic that has been discussed in length on many different web sites and forums for quite some time now. The whole problem with Quattro Torsen is the fact that it is 20 year old technology. On the other hand, Haldex is totally new technology that will be the future of AWD systems. Based on the facts below, you can judge for yourself which AWD system is better, the answer is very clear:

Quattro

The Quattro AWD system uses a pure mechanical limited slip differential called Torsen. Torsen means "torque-sensing", which was invented by an American company called the Gleason Corporation. This slip-limiting ability is implemented by cleverly using worm gears and worm wheel pair. Quattro Torsen AWD has 50/50 torque split in normal/dry conditions and up to 80% torque transfer to any axle in slippery conditions.

Advantages - Quick response, permanent AWD, linear lock-up.
Disadvantages - Heavy, pricey, no variable torque-split in normal/dry conditions, restricted packaging possibilities, if one wheel is off of the ground Quattro is rendered useless, a purely mechanical system with no possibilities for CAN interaction.

Haldex

The Haldex AWD system was developed by the Swedish company Haldex AB. VW AG was the first company to get a license and put Haldex AWD into production on cars such as the Goft 4Motion and Audi TT. Volvo was the second company to get the license for Haldex followed by the Fiat/Ferrari S.p.A. group that just recently got a license to use their AWD system in the future. The Haldex AWD system uses computer software from the Austria 4WD specialist Steyr-Daimler-Puch. The Haldex center differential is similar to Porsche 959's PSK (Porsche-Steuer Kupplung) system. The Haldex AWD system consists of a clutch of 6 discs. The hyraulic pressure against the clutch tells the computer how much torque to send to the rear axle. Haldex AWD has a 50/50 torque split in normal conditions and up to 100% torque transfer to any axle in slippery conditions. Haldex can also be programmed in dry conditions for initial variable torque split depending on the application such as 5/95, 50/50, 25/75, 100/0, etc.

Advantages - Inexpensive, light weight, very compact/great packaging possibilities, variable torque split in dry conditions and slippery conditions, fully variable torque split 5/95, 95/5, 50/50, 20/80, 100/0, etc..front/rear, fully programmable CAN interaction possibilities.
Disadvantages - Non-instantaneous response, unknown maximum engine torque handling ability.

These are the facts, and one of the main advantages of Haldex AWD is that it can be fully integrated into the CAN network system of the car thus interacting with the suspension, stability control systems, ABS/brake assist, and engine management system. This is also one of the principal reasons that Fiat/Ferrari S.p.A. has adopted Haldex AWD. This is another reason that Haldex is the future of AWD technology.

The Porsche 959's PSK (Porsche-Steuer Kupplung) AWD system, is the most sophisticated AWD system ever produced. It has the best use of traction, but is very heavy and expensive.

The Nissan Skyline GTR's ATTESA ET-S PRO, has the best "real-world" driving behavior of any AWD system ever produced. This system combines RWD's power over-steering with 4WD's maximum cornering limit.

A quote from a renowned Auto-Zine technical writer: "Based on the journalists comments about the handling of the Audi TT and Golf 4motion, it seems that the 4motion system performs even better than the traditional Torsen-differential Quattro. The age of Torsen Quattro is passing away."

Keep in mind that Volvo and Audi both make great cars, but these are the facts about AWD technology.

john151 · January 2001

texasshopper - Thanks for the post.

Question: Do you have to buy it through the dealer that you sent the "design" to? That is, do the coupons state any info about the dealership where they can be used? I already have a deal worked out through a local dealer. Wondering if I can print them out and insert them into the equation.

I did the design thing (w/out AOL), and sent it to the nearest Volvo dealerhsip. A complete moron replied with a very poorly worded email that asked me to call him (gave no info about availiabity or pricing). When I called him, he was not able to find my info, and I had to "re design" the car on the phone. After 30 minutes with him he qouted me a price that was $2,000 higher than the web page. When I balked at the price, he got rude and belligerent and went into a long list of BS about low profit margins, Volvo are better cars than anything else on the road, etc., etc., etc. He eventually acknowledged that he made a mistake, and then qouted me the Volvo web site page.

This guy was really bad. I do NOT want to ever deal with that dealership again!

rjsen · January 2001

Well, that was a nice piece of misinformation. The fact is that both systems have their strengths and weaknesses. Just because something is newer doesn't make it better -- everyone I know prefers a gas stove to an electric one, even though gas has been around much longer.

Haldex (used on the Audi TT, VW Golf/Jetta 4motion, soon to be used on Volvos) is cheaper and smaller, but has inferior driving dynamics (when attached to a FWD car) and requires computer intervention to prevent the AWD system from messing up ABS. It also requires computer intervention to activate the AWD system in the first place, as cars using the Haldex system are either FWD or RWD until they need to power the other wheels (though the system can distribute power 100% to either axle). This creates a slightly jerky transition to AWD mode.

Torsen (used on all Audi quattro cars except the TT, VW Passat 4motion) is a purely mechanical device that distributes torque 50/50 under normal conditions, and up to 80% to either axle when slip is detected. It is a full-time AWD system that can provide truly neutral handling characteristics. In addition, it doesn't interfere with ABS operation. Contrary to the above post, it has no problems when one wheel is off the ground. It's lone drawback is cost.

The age of Torsen quattro is far from over -- why would Audi still be using it on all cars except the TT, including the soon-to-be-released redesigned A4, if it were inferior? Haldex provides a good way for manufacturers to add AWD capabilities to a FWD or RWD platform with minimal expense, but Torsen is the superior system.

djasonw · January 2001

Well.. after driving and S4, A4 1.8tq, BMW 325i this past Saturday I had their driving dynamic fresh in my mind. I used to own a 1996 A4 but was curious of how the S4 would be (tiptronic) and it was a nice ride but extremely stiff and the styling though elegant is beginning to get dated. The A4 1.8 with tip was a joke as it felt way under powered and idled like a typical 4 cylinder (lumpy). The dimmer was nice but there are SO many of them on the road and the view from the side is SO bland. I also think the options are ridiculously priced. Now to the S60.

I've never driven a Volvo before and was pleasantly surprised by how it felt. First off the build quality is BETTER than the new I class (drove one around a month ago). The fit and finish are first rate and everything felt extremely tight. The trunk closed with an authoritative thump and the doors (with windows down) closed solidly. I drove a T5 Auto first and liked it but felt that the power came on at higher ram's (as it should in a up turbo). The car handled great and let's face it, how often do we drive at the limit to even need this car's capabilities. The brakes were great and aside from comments I read, were easy to modulate. The only thing I didn't like was the way it idled (too much vibration). Perhaps it was just this sample. I then drove the 2.4T and I was EXTREMELY pleased. The transmission shifts soother than my 2000 C280 and the ride compliance is excellent. The engine sounds awesome when the revs are high (like a turbine). Torque always seems to be available and lag seems nearly non-existant. I am probably going to be buying this car very soon. Anyone know if the Dynamic Stability Control is similar to ESP found on Mercedes? Also, what are your opinions on white? Black is nice but too hard to keep clean. Thanks for reading.

debchiil · January 2001

To learn about dsc, go to volvo's offical site and it will explain the system to you.

http://vcc.volvocars.se/index.asp?mainurl=/pp/s60/default.asp

texasshopper · January 2001

After you complete the online "build your car" transaction, and after you pick the dealer that you want to contact you, Volvo generates an e-mail certificate that arrives in your AOL e-mailbox a few minutes later.

The e-mail lists your name and specifies which options you have chosen. Below it says "Dear Retailer" and explains to the retailer how the program works, and how they are to install the equipment, then send in the certificate to Volvo for compensation.

Nowhere on the certificate is the dealer's name mentioned, so I would guess the certificate is valid at any dealership. There is, however, an "Offer Code" generated on the e-mail. It's a 21-digit number that may or may not be unique to each customer. No idea if that number is cross-linked to a dealer, but I doubt it is. The form actually tells the dealer to fill in its "Dealer Code" on the form, even more evidence that this certificate would be valid at any dealer.

This is a national promotion, so I assume the local dealer is compensated for the parts and labor associated with these upgrades. Thus, I figure the dealer wouldn't have any trouble honoring this certificate even if you've already made your deal.

Good luck.

drewsrx · January 2001

In regards to msg 223:

The power of information is a great thing. Everything that was written in post 221 is correct to the best of my knowledge. I am sorry, but post 223 is giving people some false information.

Post 223 false information:

1.) Contrary to what was written in post 223, the Passat B5 does use a Torsen-LSD differential, but its AWD system is still called 4Motion. The Passat B5 does not use the Haldex AWD system. The Passat B5 and Audi A4 are built on the same platform. The Audi TT, Golf IV, and Jetta IV all use the Haldex AWD system. VW AG has not distinguished the 4Motion name, so it applies to AWD vehicles that use both Torsen Quattro and Haldex. Audi has not distinguished the Quattro name either, because the Audi TT AWD system is called Quattro even though it uses Haldex AWD.

2.) Contrary to what was written in post 223, when one wheel is off the ground, Quattro Torsen is rendered useless. Since post 223 just made a blanket uninformed statement, I will explain why this occurs with Torsen LSD. By design, when one of the worm gear and worm wheel pairs loses 100% traction, the entire Torsen differential torque split will not transfer power. A redirection of torque with the worm gear pairs only occurs when a wheel has at least minimal traction. When this occurs, the fast-rotating worm wheel will drive its worm gear, through the synchromesh and drive the opposite worm gear, but this will not happen if there is a loss of 100% traction such as a situation when there is one wheel off of the ground. One must know that by basic differential theory, no torque will be sent to a wheel that has a 100% loss of traction even in Torsen worm gear and worm wheel pairs. For ALD and LSD to happen with Torsen, any value more than 0% traction loss has to occur. My family used to own an Audi 5000 S Quattro, I have been on A4.org even before it became AudiWorld, I have experienced this, and also know/read of many owners who have experienced this situation.

3.) Contrary to what was written in post 223, computer intervention does not mean inferior driving dynamics for any type of car, be it FWD or RWD. The past production Porsche 959's PSK and production Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec's ATTESA ET-S PRO all have computers controlling their AWD systems and they have the best driving dynamics of any current production AWD car. This would also include the Porsche 996 Turbo, but it uses a VC system. Haldex does not create a jerky AWD transition, in fact the driver will possibly feel smooth AWD torque transitions. Even the Audi A8 and Audi V8 use a computer controlled clutch to lock the center differential in a way that is similar to Haldex AWD. The automatic transmission for these two vehicles was used to supply the hydraulic pressure to lock the clutch pack.

It is true that permanent AWD offers neutral handling characteristics, but it is widely agreed that a slight over steer, if it can be accurately controlled by throttle and steering, is even more satisfying than neutral steering. Neutral steering tendency can also be corrected by weight distribution, the adjustment of camber and castor, and the choice of different size tyres in front and rear etc. This is the main reason why RWD BMW's and Porsche's are world renowned for their handling characteristics, even better than AWD Torsen equipped Audi's. This computer control is another reason why the Nissan Skyline GTR's V-Spec's ATTESA ET-S PRO AWD system is so remarkable. The age of Quattro is not over, post 221 never stated that it was. There is now a better AWD system out there that has greater potential for automotive integration possibilities. Obviously Torsen-Quattro is top notch, but Haldex is the superior system.

rjsen · January 2001

I never said that the Passat used Haldex AWD. If you look at my post, I specifically say that the 4motion system on the Jetta and Golf use Haldex, while the system on the Passat uses Torsen.

Quattro used to have problems when one wheel was off the ground. The current system uses a computer to detect excess wheelspin and redistribute torque to the other wheels.

Computer intervention does not necessarily mean inferior driving dynamics, but it does mean additional complexity and expense. You seem to imply the the 959 and Skyline use the Haldex system, when in fact they use completely custom AWD setups. Additionally, both of these cars have a RWD handling bias (which does permit great handling), while Volvos, VWs, and Audis using the Haldex system all have a FWD handling bias (which we all know is not compatible with great handling).

As I said before, Haldex is a good way for manufacturers to give a 2WD car AWD capabilities when needed, but it is not a genuine AWD system. Torsen quattro is one of the few permanent AWD systems suitable for on-road use.

For more information on why Torsen is technically superior, read http://www.eskimo.com/~eliot/awd.html.

drewsrx · January 2001

In regards to message 228:

1.) What exactly does this mean? "Torsen (used on all Audi quattro cars except the TT, VW Passat 4motion) is a..." This statement seems to imply that all Audi Quattro cars use Torsen except the TT and VW Passat 4motion. The VW Passat 4motion does use the Torsen-LSD system. We could argue the semantics of what was written all day, but there is no point in doing that. I think that the message has been understood now.

2.) Quattro still has problems when one wheel is off of the ground. I know this for a fact. The only Quattro equipped models that have an electronic computer controlled clutch to lock the center differential is the Audi A8 and V8. Recently, there was a person on AudiWorld who owns an Audi A4 1.8T Quattro, who drove his car into a snow embankment. His right front wheel was off of the ground. He was upset and wrote a message on AudiWorld complaining that his car was stuck because he thought his Quattro could get him out of anything, but he was wrong. This person had to get his car towed out. There was another Audi S4 owner who slid off the side of the road around a hairpin turn with his right front wheel hanging off the edge of the road. This was during a club group drive. This person also had to get his car towed out because his car would not move. An Audi A8 would not have any problems with these two situations, but that car costs $62,200 - $80,025. It is not in the same price class as any Volvo.

3.) Post 221 or 223 never implied that the Porsche 959 or Nissan Skyline GTR uses Haldex. They use clutch packs that are very similar in operation to Haldex, but they are more complex and have much more computer control. The basic concept is the same though. One of the great things about Haldex is that it can be programmed for each individual automobile. In no slip conditions, it can be programmed with a different variety of torque splits. The Volvo PCC S60R was programmed with a 50/50 torque split front/rear in normal conditions. This car can send 100% torque transfer front/rear precisely in conjunction with the active suspension system. There is no way that this can be done with Torsen Quattro.

4.) Haldex is not a genuine AWD system? What is the definition of a "genuine" AWD system? Haldex is very much a genuine AWD system and has many more future possibilities than Torsen Quattro could ever dream of. In a few respects, even the Jeep Grand Cherokee Quadra-Drive system is superior to Torsen Quattro. Quadra-Drive has the ability to move the SUV even when all of the 3 other wheels have 0% traction, for example if all the other 3 wheels are off of the ground. I have a video of this actual test.

5.) I read the whole Eskimo.com article about 2 years ago. This site has some very useful information, but it does not go into detail about Torsen Quattro vs. Haldex. It is lacking in information regarding Haldex. The last update was in Feb-99, and some of the information is outdated. The one great thing about this site though, is that this person prefers FWD with good snow tires rather than any type of AWD system, even Torsen Quattro. Permanent AWD like Torsen Quattro, with summer tires is a terrible combination, especially on ice.

There are good and bad things about anything in the world, and this is a great discussion. I still stand by the belief that Haldex is superior to Torsen Quattro, and the reason is clear. Although they are both top-notch AWD systems, Haldex has a very bright future ahead of it. Also, there was never any misinformation in post 221. We could go on and on forever about this discussion, so in the end consumers can make their own judgment. It is okay for people to agree to disagree.

jtang2 · January 2001

Just wondering if anyone would have opinions on these two cars...I like them both and am trying to decide...sorry if this has already been addressed.

rollie · January 2001

OK, rjsen and drewsrx. How's this for a twist: you guys are arguing about the differences between Quattro and Haldex but in real-world performance there isn't much difference in my experience. If you want to argue technical superiority go right ahead but since I've driven both systems in snow I have to say I didn't find a notable performance difference between the two. Further, the Haldex system you guys are describing is the current generation setup and not the setup Volvo is looking at for the S60 (which is much more advanced and incorporates an active chassis management system to eliminate under steer and over steer - at least on paper).

Further, in my experience, AWD systems are great for getting you moving from zero speed but once you are underway in the slop they don't help you as much as many would think. If you get in trouble in an AWD equipped car one of the first things you are going to instinctively do is to take your foot off the gas. Unfortunately, AWD systems only work with your foot on the gas! I think a better and more relevant argument is that of AWD versus stability (yaw) control systems. In my personal experience I think stability control is much more likely to save your bacon than AWD (of course the ideal situation is found on a car like the A6 4.2 with both).

Just my two centavos worth...

Thanks.

-rdo
rdollie@home.com

rjsen · January 2001

I agree that the function of AWD in snow and ice is generally overrated, but that's not why I like it. I like AWD because it's the only way to get truly neutral handling. While good RWD cars like the M3 and 911 do handle very well, they tend to be somewhat wild in that the back end can break loose very easily. FWD cars of course suffer from terminal understeer, and in my mind FWD is not appropriate for a performance car. My AWD S4 can exhibit either handling characteristic depending on how you modulate the throttle and brake, or even a four-wheel sideways power slide.

In all honesty, I have no idea which system will work better on snow and ice. I do know that Torsen quattro will always be superior to Haldex on an FWD platform as far as driving dynamics are concerned. Haldex on a RWD platform will certainly be able to handle well, but you don't find AWD cars with a RWD bias (BMW notwithstanding, since their system is mostly worthless) except on fairly expensive sports cars (996 C4, 996TT, Diablo 6.0, etc.) that are way out of reach even for most Audi and Volvo buyers.

For most buyers, the relative merits of Haldex vs. Torsen aren't even going to be a consideration. Manufacturers will simply choose whatever system will maximize their profits. For companies introducing their first AWD cars, that will generally mean Haldex. Since Audi already has many platforms designed around Torsen and has tons of experience with it, I doubt they'll change.

john151 · January 2001

jtang2 - I just wentthrough the same basic decision. Get current TL, wait for TL Type S, or get an S60.

I chose the S60 over the TL for 2 reasons:
1)I did not like the "outward visibility" of the TL. Specifically, the top of the windshield seemed to be in the wrong place, and I felt clostrophobic. I felt very comfortable in the S60.
2) It looked like an Accord - that is, it looked very common, even though it is a great car. The S60 looks like a Volvo and therefore is distinctive.
3) The TL seems a little more bent towards luxury than sportiness. The Volvo is much more nimble, and more in line with my driving preferences.

My concern with the Volvo is reliability - not that Volvo's are bad cars, just that Acuras are great cars when it comes to reliability.

My 2.4T is on order and should arrive in late March.

John

comp · January 2001

John151, Had exactly the same experience. But also had a backache after a 20 minute test drive in the Acura. Couldn't get the seat adjusted for comfort and for proper relationship to the steering wheel and dash. We also opted for a 2.4t, but wanted CW/STC so we have to wait until March as well. World of difference between our local Volvo dealer and the sorry excuse for an Acura dealer.

jtang2 · January 2001

Thanks guys for your input. Both are great cars. The TL is a bit boring to look at. The interior is very nice. In fact, I am not sure if I can get over how cheap the plastics feel in the Volvo. I live in Arizona and the last thing I need is warping plastics.

Also, the TL has an awesome air conditioning system. My last volvo (84 240DL) was probably one of the worst ac's I've ever been in. How is the air conditioner in the Volvo?? In Phx, AZ, that is a MUST!

Lastly, How is the 2.4T vs. the T5? I want the sportiness/power I can get with the T5. How adequate is the 2.4T?

Thanks for your comments/advise.

john151 · January 2001

jtang2 - I just wentthrough the same basic decision. Get current TL, wait for TL Type S, or get an S60.

I chose the S60 over the TL for 2 reasons:
1)I did not like the "outward visibility" of the TL. Specifically, the top of the windshield seemed to be in the wrong place, and I felt clostrophobic. I felt very comfortable in the S60.
2) It looked like an Accord - that is, it looked very common, even though it is a great car. The S60 looks like a Volvo and therefore is distinctive.
3) The TL seems a little more bent towards luxury than sportiness. The Volvo is much more nimble, and more in line with my driving preferences.

My concern with the Volvo is reliability - not that Volvo's are bad cars, just that Acuras are great cars when it comes to reliability.

My 2.4T is on order and should arrive in late March.

John

drewsrx · January 2001

In regards to msg 231 & 232:

To the average consumer, it will not matter if the car has Haldex or Torsen Quattro, although it is interesting to see the relative merits of both. When you throw stability and traction control systems into the equation, it becomes a bit more complicated. There are so many variables involved that it sometimes becomes a mute point for discussion, but interesting non-the-less.
Thanks for the fun!

-DrewSRX

john151 · January 2001

jtang2 - I went with the 2.4T because I felt the power was sufficient. The car is only 3,100 lbs, and does not require all of the power in the T5. However, when driving 2 brand new Volvos, I could not bring myself to really get on the gas for fear of abusing an engine that is not broken in. So, I really don't have a feel for where the top end of the power curve is on the T5 - I just know that both have plenty of power for routine manuevers.

Also, since I live in the pot hole belt, I wanted a softer suspension. If I lived in a state with better roads, I probably would have gone with the T5.

However, I am still second guessing myslef on choosing the 2.4, partly because I really liked the seats in the T5.

Other things to consider: T5 burns a little more fuel, and will probably cost a little more for insurance (assumption).

I don't know why they even bother with the base engine on the S60 - it does NOT have enough power for a car in this price range (at least with an automatic).

John

djasonw · January 2001

Well... I had stated previously I was prepared to sign the dotted line. I changed my mind after driving the 2.4t and T5 consecutively at a different dealer. This time the T5 idled more smoothly and the 2.4t idled lumpy. I know I am using my 2000 C280 as a benchmark but for the money I am spending I don't want idle harshness. That's not the worst of it, I then went back to dealer one and had the car by myself and a friend (no salesman along to ruin the fun) and wanted to give the 2.4t another test drive. It was raining so it was a perfect time to test the car's traction and handling. On the debit side, the car handles great and though the brakes are grabby, they really are excellent. The ride is EXTREMELY comfortable and the seats are better than Benz and BMW. Now the credits:
1- A clunking sound when coming to a stop (shorter than normal stop)- Dealer says it was the transmission catching up.
2- Too much torque steer and the traction control system is shy to come on when you need it.
3- Larger turning radius than my C280 and a 3 series Bimmer.
4- Noticeable turbo lag on takeoff (you can get used to it).
5- Questionable first year teething problems with reliability

I really wanted this car and may still get it but if and when I do, it will be the T5. I'll be patient and wait to see how others are making out. If you do decide to buy, I respect that decision as this car is really hard to walk away from. Oh... one last thing, when ordered in white this car would look great if the rub strips were color coordinated. The black rub strips make the car look SO CHEAP. Best color to me is black and the ugliest (just my opinion) is venetian red.

fowlerds · January 2001

I am very interested in purchasing a new S60 T5, possibly involving the TDS program.
Does anyone know how the local dealers handle possible trade-ins when you
want to purchase a TDS Volvo. If I bypass the dealership to buy from the factory
will the local dealership be interested in my trade-in. Any information would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,
fowlerds@yahoo.com

stickguy · January 2001

The trade-in is always a separate transaction, but get kind of rolled together into a "net" number when you do them together. Since the price you are paying is fixed by Volvo, there is no reason for the dealer to overallow on the trade. Plus, you have to pay for the new car well in advance, and most people will still need the old car.

I imagine that the trade in this case might as well get sold to any dealer, since they are probably only going to offer wholesale anyway. What I'm not sure of is whether you can work the deal as a trade in for tax purposes, which certainly favors selling to the dealer.

stickguy · January 2001

recent USA today test drive article. Overall, very positive. Pretty much sounds like the car to me.subject:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/2001-01-20-volvo.htm

sreeve29 · January 2001

I am considering replacing all or part of the audio system in my 2.4M (why does it
seem like I'm the only owner of a 2.4M here :-)

What I need is all the information I cat get on the existing system. It's the standard
audio system that comes with the 2.4M.

I would like make and model of the head unit, speakers, etc. Size of speakers,
impedance. All that stuff. Does anyone know where I can obtain this information.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Scott Reeve

drewsrx · January 2001

In regards to msg 243:

You might want to check www.SwedeSpeed.com. There are a bunch of Volvo S60 owners over there discussing their cars! There are some audio related topics going on over there right now as well. I hope this helps!

dennislemest · January 2001

I just purchased an S60 2.4 last night and wanted to gather info on this Perm Plate protection system. I have always thought that it is a rip off so to speak. Can anyone really shed some light on this. I declined this option but they offer a bit of time to think about it.

drewsrx · January 2001

Perma Plate is basically a polish and wax that they put on the car. It is not worth it for the price that they charge. You can go out and get a good quality wax and polish and do a better job of putting it on the car yourself! I know this because my family has owned Volvo's since 1980, and they offered this back in 1986. Back then, they gave you the Perma Plate wax for free, and you could put it on your new car yourself. I still have that box at home, and I used it once or twice. I hope this helps!

bruneje · January 2001

Has anybody purchased an S60 in Canada lately (Ottawa area) ideas on pricing would be appreciate, also does the AOL promotion apply in Canada as well. Test drove the car and it was superb, but the part that pleases me the most about Volvo's ( I have had 38 to date, use to deal in used Volvo's when I was in University, a long long time ago) is how well it does in cold weather, from warming up, to warming you up , and the seats, that are unbeatable. I went to Acura way when they came out and sold the car when it was a year old, for one my back could not take it any more, and it took forever to warm up, but it was great in warm weather. Any help on pricing would be appreciated.

richmstl · January 2001

I'm interested in leasing a loaded T5 with a 5-speed.

1) Anyone have lease pricing?

2) Are the 5-speeds very hard to come by?

Thanks for your help.

-Rich

texasshopper · January 2001

There are 5-speeds out there, but in very limited quantities. If I go that route, I'll probably wind up ordering. I got lucky, however, and found one on a lot near my home last weekend, so I was able to test-drive. The T5 manual drove like a dream, a smooth shifter. I was impressed.

Good luck.

klkrause · January 2001

I have a difficult decision ... My wife works for Ford, so I can get an S60 T5 for just under invoice, or I can get a CL Type S. Any comments? I haven't had a chance to drive the S60 yet, though.

.... Or should I fork out even more money and get a BMW 325 or 330?

dawin · January 2001

I am considering to purchase either the S60 T5 or the Audi A6 2.8 Q. Any feed back on the new S60 will be appreciated.
Thanks.

Volvo S60

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