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Comments
First of all, I would like to thank you for your dimand and pearl paper about throttle body cleaning. It is well-written, and easy to follow the instructions.
I have a 92 D LS with 138,000 miles and live in Philadelphia. I had rough idle: 750rpm in P, and 550-650 in D/R since early Feb. Sometimes in D, rpm decreased to 400rpm, then immediately increased to 1,200rpm. (Last Sept. I had idle problem. So I did 120,000 miles maintanance & repair by Mits dealer, who changed idle air control motor, spark plugs and wires, cooling system thermostat, timing belt, etc.)
I figured out the throttle body could be dirty, so last Sunday (Feb.22) I disconnected the battery, followed your TB cleaning instruction and cleaned the TB. (TB was really dirty!) After I cleaned TB, I started my car. It idled at 2,000 rpm for a while (in cold weather, 28F), but when the temp rised to normal driving temp. It idled at 1,000rpm in P, and 800rpm in D/R. I took a test drive, and the idle was fine.
However, today even after the car has been driven for 10 minutes, the idle is 1,500 rpm in P, and 1,000 rpm in D/R.
1) Is it possible that I have messed up the TB? The followed the exact steps in your article.
2) Is it possibe that because the TB is clean, so the throttle body opening is 'bigger and wider' than it was before when the ECU sends out the same signal to open the TB during idle?
3) Can I manually adjust the TB? If I can, how can I do it?
Thanks a lot!
UCSC
Today the idle in my 92 D LS is still high, but much better than yesterday. When the car is completely stopped, the idle is around 1100rpm in P, and 800rpm in D/R after it has been driven for 10 minutes. I guess my D need time to re-learn the setting. So I will give it more time to adjust itself before I have to manually adjust the throttle body.
Mr. Vivona, I am still interested in learning how to adjust the TB. Could you give me some advice?
Thanks!
UCSC
I discovered a noise coming from the engine/transmission or underside of the car when I go from Neutral to Drive.
I brought it to a Mitsu dealer to have them look at it. They told me everything looked fine and that it was a normal sound. They told me that the noise is generated from a heat shield from underneath the car. They said the heat shield is properly mounted and secured. They said it is the design of the car.
Does this sound correct? I can't believe that car of this level would have such a disturbing noise as part of a design.
Does anyone have an opinion? - Thanks
I will say this car is turning into a bit of a disappointment as far as build quality goes. It's a reliable, nice looking, comfortable car, but the build quality is just not up to the high standards of the considerably cheaper Lancer. Here is another example of a minor annoying issue: the driver's side sunvisor is overly stiff and creaks loudly ever time it is moved. I assume they will have to replace it. I've never had a new car with so many little problems. 5 unscheduled dealer visits in only 5.5k and 3 months is a bit much! To put my position into a little more prospective, my 03 Tiburon is a year old and has 10,600 miles and has yet to see the dealer for anything. It's build quality has been far superior. And that is from a company that only a few years ago was known for junky cars. I just hope this car redeems itself with its reliability.
Just bought a 1992 D SOHC with 152,000. Previous owner said transmission was rebuilt two years ago. Idle was high (2500) and I believe it needs a water pump but the car ran and shifted basically okay. (We also own a 1994 with 160,000 that runs like a top).
Since the car also had a valve cover(?) oil leak and the engine compartment was COVERED in oil and grime, I took it to a nearby car wash and used engine cleaner and the sprayer to power wash the engine compartment---(I should have known better!)
The car didn't start right away but finally did. I drove it to a gas station to get gas (less than 1/2 mile) filled up and when I started it back up it would not move when shifted in to drive or any of the lower gears or power/od modes. It would go into reverse.
I pulled the car(in reverse) into a side lot and let it sit. After a couple of hours of starting and trying the gears--it finally went into drive after hesitating. I drove it a few miles running very rough. At a friends suggestion we sprayed wire dry into the various electrical connections in the engine compartment. I was able to drive the car home and it seemed to run better but was still "rough".
After parking the car it will not move in drive or lower gears --it will still go into reverse. Fluid level and color looks okay.
I cleaned the throttle body which was really dirty--it ran better--idle was still high and it would not go into drive.I adjusted the throttle cable bracket and idle is closer to 1500.
I tried reading codes from the OBD sensor and the proper procedure(I am assuming it is a style one) with a digital multi tester but have a hard time interpreting the quick flashes to translate into code. I also tried an analog meter but could not distinguish needle movement between codes (they all seemed that same output).
Do you have any ideas as far as which sensor would effect or cause this condition or what remedies I might try? Will the OBD show trans faults or do I have to access the TCM module? HELP!
Tom
Overall, my first 6000 miles with this car hasn't been too enjoyable. But I do love the strong V6, smooth tranny and ride, and attractive comfortable interior. Mitsu needs to tighten the quality controls on the Australian plant though.
I had the same issue at 16K miles and they turned the rotors and everything appeared to be fine........
Now the dealer is replacing them under warranty ( Of course they do not have them in stock..... wonder why) and will take a week to get.
The Mitsu rep. kept trying to blame very heavy braking ( Brakes got excessively HOT) caused the problem, but I see no signs of excessive heat at the surface of the rotor. I would expect to see some signs of overheating ??? The rep stated they checked the Caliper release mechanism and the brake operation looked fine.
The dealer has been the only service to torque the lug nuts so I don't expect over torqueing was the problem. I can only conclude the metal alloy in the rotors is poor.....
I hope I get better results with the replacements......????
"subarusaleshou" was correct !! DO NOT TRUST THE DEALER !
I validated that my brand new Eclipse GTS (That the dealer has not touched yet) had 70 ft-lbs lug nut torque.
It appears an investment in a torque wrench is well founded !!
You can bet that 90% or more of the time a mechanic will incorrectly torque the lug nuts. I have easily gotten over 100,000 miles on rotors by double-checking and retorqueing the lug nuts immediately after any mechanic has touched my, er..., wheels. On my current Diamantes, I have 37,000 miles on one and 15,000 miles on the other and neither car has measurable runout.
In all my years of dealing with this issue, I have found them properly tightened maybe one or two times. In most cases, they are in excess of 150 ft. lbs. even if they use a torque wrench or torque stick, due to not knowing how to properly use these tools. For instance, they will fully tighten the first nut, then fully tighten the one across from it. That creates a lever action that will overtighten the first nut. The proper procedure is to tighten all to half torque, then go back and final tighten them to 75 ft lbs. Or they will tighten all the nuts with an air impact wrench to over 200 ft lbs, then use a torque stick or hand torque wrench to finish the tightening, obviously oblivious to the fact that the nuts are already too tight and the torque wrench doesn't loosen them to the correct torque. In many cases, they forget to tighten the one nut that has the lock on it, so I have four grossly overtightened and one finger tight.
It is not the actual rotor warp you feel in your brakes, it is the variation in the thickness of the rotor that results from the pads wearing against a warped rotor. It takes about 3,000 to 6,000 miles for the warp to create enough disk thickness variation for you to feel it. So a couple of days being overtorqued isn't a problem, though your alloy wheels can be cracked or crushed by the excessive tightness, or the lugs themselves can be stretched and weakened, so it is best to demand they use hand tools or a torque stick from the very beginning or reinstallation and even then you should retorque them to the proper torque.
Please also note that if they turn the rotors off the car or by using a hub mounted lathe, they can't get to zero runout and brake pulsation will occur in 3,000 to 6,000 miles. The only proper way to turn rotors is with a caliper-mounted lathe.
I have been fairly impressed with the gas mileage my car is getting. My mileage has been averaging 20 mpg pretty consistently in 100% heavy city traffic and suburban driving. This is including some aggressive driving here and there, such as gunning it to feel the powerful low end torque and taking it to the redline a few times. Considering the car is rated at 17 in this type of driving and has a large V6, I'm quite happy with the mileage.
Mr. Vivona
You could buy rotors from the dealer $180+ a piece but the Raybestos rotors ($80 a piece) as just as good. My mechanic thinks Raybestos makes the Mitsubishi ones anyway.
Brake pads are however a different story. You only pay a small premium, $134 for dealer parts compared to $120 for after market but the difference is huge. The dealer parts just fit so nicely and are build way better than the best after market. My mechanic just loves Mitsubishi brake pads. He says he will never recommend after market brake pads for Mitsubishi anymore. He says I did the right thing by insisting on dealer brake pads.
Is there a not so expensive to get better mileage. I don't want to spend $500 either.
Thanks for the advice on the OEM pads. I do plan to use the Dealer exclusively but I think they are going to get tired of my Quality checks.
1)Can someone please detail each step on how to replace the brake pads for both the front and rear wheels on a Diamante. I have a 1996 2.5 Litre Diamante. Would appreciate the assistance.
2)Would anyone know why the brakes make a clicking noise when applied especially when moving from a standstill.
3)Does anyone know how to replace or at least access the AC air filter?
I keep my tires properly inflated and drive 65-75MPH, pretty much within 5MPH of the speed limit. I use mid-grade gas. I live in the south, so this mileage was at 80-90 degree temperatures. I use Pennzoil 10W-30 oil.
You should check the mileage "gas station to gas station" on the interstate to get your pure highway mileage. If it isn't at least 29MPG and you kept your speed under 80MPH, you need to check all the usual things that affect mileage. Some things to check are:
1. Driving habits
2. Dirty air filter
3. Fuel leak
4. Ignition timing
5. Dirty throttle body
6. Tire inflation (29 front, 26 rear)
7. Vacuum leak
8. Dragging brake
9. Engine temperature sensor
10. Air intake temperature sensor
11. Driving in cold weather
12. Driving with windows open
You should be getting better than 24 on the road, so check things over and see if there is something wrong that is affecting mileage.
Mr. Vivona
Thanks
Thanks,
Hank
COuld you please tell me how to check the air intake temp sensor? Thanks!
UCSC
Mr. Vivona
I have an 02 Diamante with warped rotors at 30K. The wheels have been rotated by Jiffy Lube (not the dealer). Do you think if I bring it to the Mitsu dealer (and don't thell them that JL rotated the tires) that I can get them to replace the rotors under warranty?
Alternatively, what are my chances of getting Jiffy Lube to own up to the overtorquing and pay the bill?
Any advice would be much appreciated! Thanks!
Give the dealer a try. The worst they will say is, "its not covered", at which point you can decide to let them do the work or someone else. I wouldn't expect them to replace the rotors though. If anything, they may offer to turn them under warranty, but just realize that the rotors are out of warranty after 12k and the dealer doesn't have to do anything.
On a seperate note, he told me my 02 Diamante LS has no Cabin Air Filter. Can anyone confirm this (I thought the car had one, but I must confess, I've never looked for it)?
Peace out,
w41 package
My DTV (Disc Thickness Variation)has not returned since I have personnaly retorqued the lug nuts to NO GREATER than 80 ft-lbs. It is NOT rotor warp. See Mr. Vivona's excellent article on this topic. This is a specification in the Diamante Service Manual.
The Diamante (2002) does not have a cabin air filter. I am dissapointed in that exception as well !
Good Luck
Anyway, the rotors have now warped twice in less then 10k. Not good at all. In 7 months this car has seen the dealer 6 times, with 4 distinct problems, 3 of which weren't fixed the first time. I think the dealer is more to blame then Mitsu, but this car isn't as trouble free as my Lancer was.
To compare, my 03 Hyundai Tiburon has never seen the dealer in 13 months. At 12k, its showing some very minor signs of rotor warpage, but otherwise, has been perfect.
For what it's worth, I had only one visit to the dealer in the 5.5 years I have owned my 1999 and that was to replace a sticking trunk actuator motor. I had diagnosed it myself and told them it was sticking. They replaced the latch instead. Of course, that didn't fix the problem and I had to go back and have them replace the actuator and that fixed it.
The brake rotors are still perfect at 5.5 years because I properly torque the lug nuts myself. Even when a mechanic uses a hand torque wrench or a torquestick, he does it incorrectly and I find the nuts all tightened wrong. I never find them wrong after I have done it myself and I have the perfect rotors after 5.5 years to prove it. My last car (87 Galant) had 11 years and 110,000 miles on the original rotors when I traded and they were perfect.
My wife's 2002 has never been back to the dealer and has not had any problems. The rotors are perfect. Same goes for her previous car (89 Galant) which was traded at 13 years and 86,000 miles.
Your best approach is to buy the Diamante service manual from an online dealer that sells for wholesale (visit www.parts.com) and diagnose and fix your own problems. I know you shouldn't have to do this, but the fact remains that you will do a better job than what a dealer will do.
Mr. Vivona
I assume you have noticed some of my posts regarding such things as DTV as learned from your articles. Thank You for all the Sage Advice !
I too had a very negative experience with the OEM GoodYear tires. Finally at 24K miles I got rid of them and put new Kumho Ecsta tires. I also used Discount Tire who uses the GSP9700 balancing equipment. Well, just like the original OEM tires I am getting this vibration in the 65 to 75 MPH speed range that is very frustrating. I have taken the car back once to rebalance, and will go back again this week. It kind of comes and goes ( within a .5 mile distance) and you feel it in the steering and seat. I figured the vibration with the OEM tires was due to the bad wear, as I bought the car used with 18K miles on it (the OEM tires had a lot of cupping and uneven wear the tires)
I want to make sure I am diagnosing this properly. I now have 1000K miles on the new tires so I am hoping to have any tread wear also help to act as an indicator.
Do you have any adice on this issue for the Diamante ? The last wheel alignment check came in well within specification for 4 wheel alignment.
If all goes well, you are not supposed to end up with any vibration. Except... the technician may not know how to properly use the GSP9700 and just use it to weight balance, or the GSP9700 may be out of calibration. Also, many tire stores will consider a road force variation of 19 pounds or less as being acceptable. For the advanced low-unsprung weight suspension of a Diamante, you need a road force of 9 pounds or less.
Another issue: The tire needs to inflated to about 40 pounds to seat the beads during installation, but must be aired down to the correct PSI before balancing i.e. 29PSI front and 26PSI rear. That is rarely done by the tire tech and you drive out with tires way overinflated and improperly balanced. A tire inflated to 40PSI is going to show a much lower road force variation than one properly inflated.
So, having the tires rebalanced and asking to watch and noting all the measurements reported on the screen of the GSP9700 may help. Look for the road force variation to be 9 pounds or less and the final balance to read 0.0 oz. If the tire cannot be road force balanced to 9 or less pounds, and reindexing it on the rim does not help, the tire should be replaced under warranty with one that will reach that specification. My tires all balanced in the range of 3 to 7 pounds.
Make sure you have driven at least ten miles immediately before having the tires balanced so they will work out any flat-spotting caused by the car sitting still for several hours. In fact, if your new tires have nylon in any of the belts, you will get some vibration in the first ten miles of driving any time the car has sat a while. This actually may be your problem because you say the problem comes and goes. Try driving on the freeway for 10-mile round trip and see if the tires are smoother on the return trip because the belts have worked out the flat spots. If the tires are smooth after the first 10 miles, your tire balance is okay and you are dealing with a characteristic of nylon belts that any amount of rebalancing won't fix. In fact, my Falken Ziex tires vibrate a bit in the first 10 miles, but afterwards they are fine. Some tires are worse than others. For instance, I see a lot of complaints in the Acura TL forum about flatspotting with the Bridgestone Turanza tires that come standard on them.
By all means, make sure you check and verify the lug nut torque any time a tech has touched them. No matter what they say, no matter what they use, you can only be sure by using your own torque wrench and setting the torque as I indicate in my article.
Hope this helps. Keep me posted.
Mr. Vivona
A couple of points. You were exactly right. The last time I left the shop the tires were way OVER inflated ! Just as you described. The vibration is not during the initial warmup period, as I did expect that from prevoius experience, although this is a very good point for many situations.
Where do you find the road force balance specification of 9 lbs or less ? I would like to hold the shop to this spec.. It sounds like this is demanded by the Diamante based on its "low-unsprung weight suspension" ?
I will let you know what I learn after my appointment.
Thanks Again !!
Greg
In case you are not familiar with the term "unsprung weight", it means the weight of all parts that move freely up and down with the wheel, as opposed to the "sprung weight" which is the rest of the car that rides on the springs. The unsprung part is the tire, wheel, axle, hub, brake parts and suspension arms -- and in the case of drive wheels (the front for a Diamante) the drive axles. When a tire goes over a bump, the up & down force has to overcome the inertia of the unsprung weight so the lower the unsprung weight, the easier the wheel can follow variations in the road without losing contact with the road. A car with higher unsprung weight in the rear suspension will, for instance, jump sideways when hitting a bump while rounding a fast corner, whereas a car with low unsprung weight will not. The opposite is true of the front wheels. High unsprung weight will cause a car to try to continue in a straight line if it hits a bump in a turn.
Keep me posted.
Mr. Vivona
Did the ride improve ? Yes, it did. But I am not conviced that I am satisfied. The shop indicated that Kuhmo tires run about this level of variation while if I bought Michelin they could get it down to 1 lb !
How do I take that ? Is the Road Force Variation limits based on the tire manufacturer and if so I have never seen this spec'd.
Now I'm not sure what my recourse is. You indicated they should replace (under warranty) any tires that can't be balanced to below 9 lbs. How do I get some teeth behind that spec ?
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks for ALL the help.
i am a very happy owner of a 94 diamante with 170K miles, unfortunately recently white smoke started coming out of the tail pipe and the car started over heating. The dealer wants 2.5K for repairing the head gasket, i am using the car now as a station car (10 miles total drive every day) and so not sure if the work is worth it. Also the dealer was not sure how many miles this thing will last and if it will pas NJ inspection,,any ideas --am i due for a new car?how many miles can these cars last??
thanks
dhruv