High End Luxury Cars

arcoates

I put more stock in R&T than I do C/D or MT. Probably because as merc1 said they rate performance number one. And with cars, that is how I think it should be~ A.R.

arcoates

Edmunds has a new roadtest of the LS430. I don't agree with everything, but I must give lexus credit for hiring Mark Levinson to design their sound system. It looks to be the best thing going next to actually being at the concert of who you are listening too. Good work Lexus/Levinson~ A.R.

ripinrocket

Giving highest priority to performance #'s in the in high end luxury sedans is kinda pointless. Highest priority should be luxury.

Performance should get highest priority when it comes to *Performance* cars like the Porsche 911, Ferrari's, the BMW M5 & M3 and so on.

"Edmunds has a new roadtest of the LS430. I don't agree with everything,..." Who would have guessed that!

aculex

LS430 with the Ultra Lux Package .. buy them up please!!! I can't wait to own one of them, pre-owned, in 8 years. Take good care of them!

ripinrocket

Plenty of Ultra Lux LS430's being sold, I believe.

So I'm sure you won't have a problem in 8 years.

fenn

I have driven many of the cars mentioned here. I have test driven the new LS430, along with the GS430. I have repeatedly driven my father's XJ8, and a friend's XK-R. I test drove a Mercedes S430 and a E430 at a local dealer. I have driven various BMW's including 540's 740's and a 750. I have never driven an Audi A-8, but I recently test drove the Audi A-6 in both the 2.7t and 4.0 versions. (I think that the Audi A-6 2.7t is a great car for the money!)

As for the Q45 trunk, two sets of golf clubs and a few other pieces of overnight luggage can fit in the trunk at once. That is all that I seem to need. To each their own.

ripinrocket

And now, why did you choose a Q45?

And please don't say you like a Q more than a S430!

fenn

....in one of the last paragraphs in the Edmund's new review of the LS430 they advise prospective LS430 buyers to also consider the similar attributes of the Infiniti Q45 at a lower price. That sounds objective to me.....although it will be very upsetting to one Honda owner.

fenn

Sell your Honda, get me some extra dough and I will look at the S500

ripinrocket

Haha! Why don't you sell your Q45 and give me the money and I'll sell my Honda and I'll go buy a BMW 5-series!

Oh wait, your Q's value has already taken a nose-dive, so I would have to settle on a 330i!

Just having fun!

Not saying your Q45 sucks, as the old one did, just that the S430, 7-series & LS430 are better at the game they are playing. Definately the 2002 Q45 is much improved and competitive with the LS430 & S430. And I'm pretty sure you'll see it win MT COTY award.

The Edmunds' article also lists prospective customers to go look at the Seville--so what?

aculex

How the HELL do you people afford these cars!?!?! I cannot imagine shelling out $800 bucks or more a month for driving about 1000 miles, on top of your down payment. Even in a Lexus/Mercedes/BMW. It is astounding. It really must be good to be the king.

aculex

Like I said earlier, I'm not an Infiniti fan but don't criticize DonFenn for buying his Q .. maybe he likes to have a car that's not common (at least that's common in your rich-[non-permissible content removed] circles), and he likes to blow the doors off the luxmobiles in his own.

Go for it Don!

ripinrocket

People afford the cars by making money and working their rear ends off! $800? Check out a payment for a S430, S500, LS430, or A8. You're well over the $1K mark just for leasing it.

aculex

Sheer insanity. Over $1000 a month for 1000 miles. A buck for every mile. I guess that explains First Class, truffles and Dom Perignon.

Bless you all - and bless the used car market. (But damn the salesmen - that's another topic).

fenn

Thank you Aculex. You are correct. And, here in car-conscious L.A. I like driving the upstart for much less money....

bitkahuna

"How the HELL do you people afford these cars!?!?!"

Easy - buy low, sell high :-)

Made half the price of my GS400 in about 8 weeks in the stock market!! Sold my spotless previous car privately for $17K. Paid cash for the GS - no payments.

Car payments suck.

fenn

Aculex, cars are a big expense. Everybody justifies their investment in their own way. Many of us drive more than 2000 miles a month, and have worked hard, to make a living that enables us to afford the luxury of a nice car. Others just want to have a nice car above anything else, and will devote a big hunk of their income to it. In LA.. I see guys with nice BMW's that are probably sharing small apartments with roommates so that they can afford to make their car payments. I also see young guys that spend a huge percentage of their income to have a tricked out pick-up truck or customized Integra.. In reality they are probably in much keeper $$$ than that guy driving the I class Mercedes....and they are still happy. I was always more conservative than that, but in the end, it's whatever makes you happy!

arcoates

I think people nowadays use their cars to scream to the world their affluence. On the highway, no one can see your Rolex, Armani suit or address, but they sure can see the back end of your benz as you blast past~ A.R.

carphart

I know all about car fanatics... Especially in LA.. Cars are like status badges to many people. They define themselves by their vehicles.

By the way, I did see a 2002 Q45 on the street this morning, and it looked pretty cool. As it approached the intersection across from me, the headlights and front end looked pretty awesome. I also must qualify myself, by admitting that I really disliked the front end of this car when I first saw it at the auto show. I now think that it is a distinctive look, and it is not going to be mistaken for any other car.

By contrast I think that the LS430 looks like the last generation of the Mercedes S class, after a careful cross-breeding experiment with a Toyota Avalon. I am not saying that it is an ugly car. However, it is just nothing special from the exterior. Once you put in the upgraded Mark Levinson sound system (to compete with the Infiniti's standard system) and sunroof packages, a relatively basic LS430 ends up being at least 10k more than the Infiniti Q45. (and, I am not even talking about either car outfitted with navigation). Edmunds seems to be saying the same thing in their recently posted Road Test of the LS430, by suggesting that Lexus LS430 buyers might also consider the Q45 for less money.

I am not the rooting section for Infiniti. We already have some of their cheerleaders here. I am just a car fan and prospective luxury car buyer. So, can't we all just agree that Infiniti has re-entered this rarified market of fine cars with the new Q45. Even our "devil's advocates" like ripnrocket seem to concede that much.... So, lets move on!

ripinrocket

The Q45 has definately moved up many notches on the ladder, but still not up to the head honchos in the class. Infiniti still got a few rungs to go on the ladder, and personally, with their horrendous start, I doubt they will get their anytime soon.

The Lexus, 740il cost more, but they also will hold their value better. That makes up some of that additional money you pay out.

rapro

I don't know about the States but in Canada Q45 competes in price against 540 and E430 not the S-class and 7 series. Compared to these it's more sometimes much more of a car for the money in almost every category; bigger, faster, safer, nicer interior, more gadgets, more luxurious. 540 with the sports package is probably a better handler and E430 looks better, but that's about all where Q is bested. And very importantly thanks to opinions like ripinrocket's the Q owner feels like a member of a very exclusive club. He doesn't meet 100 of his cousins (usually ridden by little old men) daily like the S-class or 7-series owner does. Q has an aura of exlusivity and sophistication that is unique and completely its own.

ripinrocket

IN the US, the Q45 also competes pricewise with the 540i and E430. Yes, the Q45 is bigger than the 5-series and E-class but the Q45 has a smaller trunk than the E-class.

The 540i though is faster. And safer, we'll wait for crash test results for that one. The last Q was pathetic in that regard, and the 540i & E430 are at the head of the class in terms of safety. Just because the Q45 has the safety features doesn't make it the safest. The 540i is definately a better handler than the Q45.

Yes, the Q has a aura, if you want to call it that, of exclusivity but it's not for the right reasons!

arcoates

Why are you selling the new Q so short ripinrocket? Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't the new Q been out only a month? A month is a short period to forecast the car's popularity. I'm sure a lot of people don't even know what it is when they pass one. Give it some time, I'm sure it will catch up~ A.R.

ripinrocket

If you haven't noticed most new products that jump out of the gate running usually keep running, while most new cars that start out of the gate walking usually end up stalling.

Of course, that doesn't mean the Q45 will be one that keeps on walking but chances are good. Let's face it, it's not getting noticed even though it's had alot of good reviews.

A decade+ of screw-ups by the Infiniti division takes a while to overcome. I suspect, for the Q45 to really get noticed on sales charts will take one more generation. I hope it does well on the market as more competition is always good for the consumer of these products.

carphart

ripnrocket, After reading your repeated rebuttals to any objective positive comment or favorable review about the latest Q45 (while you admit that you are not really an owner or prospective owner of a car in this class) you appear sort of like a married man who is picking apart the woman on an Internet dating service, while his homely wife sits in the other room. Sorry, I just had to say that.... I am trying to inject some levity here

oldprofessor

I've seen the new Q but haven't driven one yet, and I like what I saw (and have read in the car magazines). My current plan is to wait a couple of years and pick up a 2002 Q for about what half what it costs new. I'm assuming it'll follow the typical Infiniti nosedive in value. What do y'all think of this plan?

ripinrocket

Huh, levity! Good idea.

I see you don't read properly. I have given favorable reviews of the Q45. I won't make it seem like a perfect car nor a car the caliber of a 740i, LS430, or S430 because one can easily conclude it is not the equal of those, but it is close.

ripinrocket

Good idea, a used Q45.

Planning to take a Q45 out for a test drive next weekend. I'm sure the Infiniti dealer will have plenty of time to let me do that, since there was nobody in the showroom a few weeks ago on a Saturday.

oldprofessor

I've seen the new Q but haven't driven one yet, and I like what I saw (and have read in the car magazines). My current plan is to wait a couple of years and pick up a 2002 Q for about what half what it costs new. I'm assuming it'll follow the typical Infiniti nosedive in value. What do y'all think of this plan?

carphart

oldprofessor...I think that you will probably get a great deal on a used Q. The original ones were great buys a few years back after Infiniti flooded the resale market with the lease returns. Seeking a good value is never a bad thing.

ripnrocket ......taking your weekend time to test drive cars in which you have no other interest, beyond being critical? Nice life.

fenn

Gee, ripnrocket do you spend all of your spare time in auto dealerships?

Do they make you park the Honda in back?
Relax! I am just contributing to carphart's "levity" thing!

lemko

...and the lease was $799 a month. More reasonable than a $1K lease for an S-Class or A8, but at that price, why not just go all the way and purchase the car. Factoring in residual value and given a decent down payment you'd have been better off purchasing the car in the first place.
I see a lot of young people getting themselves in trouble by leasing a high-end car. I once considered leasing a new 1992 Cadillac Deville but waited two years until I was able to buy a 1994 model. I still have this car today, fully paid and it is still faithfully serving me.

bitkahuna

Looked at the pics and read the article (twice) in C&D on the new 7 series.

I think it will be a huge winner. Way to go BMW!

fenn

While that sounds like a good lease deal for the big BMW, just note that the 7 series will be radically changed in the next model year or so. If that model changeover does not matter to you, then it is a good promotional lease price for a fine automobile.

ripinrocket

Donfenn,

No, the Infiniti dealer insists that I park it right in front of the dealer. That way, at least, 1 spot in the parking lot is filled! When I go to a Benz dealer they insist I park next to the Garbage bin!

carhart,

Nope, don't take weekends off just to test drive cars. DO it sometimes, just to waste time with a friend or 2. The Q45 would be the 1st car this year I would test drive.

fenn

You need to relax ripnrocket. It just seems like you will not allow anybody, from Road and Track to Edmunds, to a bunch of other observers, say anything nice about the Q, without having the need to chime back with something negative. You are that guy who always has to get in the last word. The guy that you try to avoid, or walk away from, at the cocktail party.

You should probably stay home this weekend and put those new white lenses on your Honda tailights. That seems to be the current rage among Honda owners.......Oh, ...you already have them?

carphart

Don't be so hard on ripnrocket, he has his favorites and that is OK. What is there not to like about the Mercedes S class? It is a great automobile.

However, it is hard for me to disregard the huge price differential between an S class, or even my own 740i, vs the Q45. It must be easy to forget about the money if you are not realistically trying to budget for the purchase of any of these cars.

logic1

I would not stop ripinrocket from test driving a Q if he has an opportunity. A friend of mine is an auto broker. I have spent many a happy Saturday afternoon taking cool cars I certainly never intend to buy out for a spin. Why not if you have the chance.

mvargo1

I don't know what the story is nationwide, but in two months we have sold almost as many 2002 Q45's at full list than we sold 2000/1's all last year at significant discounts.

bitkahuna

So you sold one? Way to go!

:-)

rapro

Rocketman, do you deny that Q45 is more/a lot more car (to me and others) for the money in its price range? If according to you the Q is close to the 7-series and 7-series by any reasonable account is more of a car then 5-series, it follows that the Q is at least equal to the 5-series despite its small trunk about which you seem so obsessed.

Reasons are personal especially when a car selection is concerned, they are objectively neither wrong nor right contrary to your opinion. My reason that I would prefer Q of all the cars in its price category (5-series, E-clas etc) is because it has an air of exclusivity and sublime sophistication. In other words, to paraphrase one of the Marx brothers, I wouldn't want to belong to a driver club that would have people of your ilk as members. This is perfectly good and "right" reason, among others, for me though I would imagine that it wouldn't be to you.

mbaudibest1

my take

Q45- is a nice car. i've seen 4 or so, actually about the same as number of new LS430s so it's catching on. hopefully it will have staying power. i like the styling from the sides esp, but the back needs a little work, it doesnt strike me as luxurious, unlike the first gen, Q. the front is different, but i like it now. definitely a value leader, since it's more car than a 5 series or E class but priced closely. i think the 5 series has a similar sized trunk too. love the interior esp in either the white and light wood or the black with the gray wood. love the amt of chrome that goes in, it feels special. wish the nice chrome tape player was actually a chrome CD unit instead. havent driven it but handling by most accounts is good comparitively. hope it does good in crash tests. hopefully one day this car will sell as well as the LS430, it has the goods and the price to do so. i think road and track just rated it above the LS430, though price helped out (i think it was close to 10000 cheaper). i think the only features it lacked compared to the ls was the laser cruise (coming soon), massaging rear seats, cooler in the rear armrest, and a little less leg room (though still more than ample).
A8L - great car with superb engineering and the best interior, hands down. great utility of 4wd, and huge trunk. dont know why it doesnt sell as well as it should. styling at first is a tad bland, but there's such nice detailing. great handling and the engine is quiet nice to listen to, though i guess some will say it's louder than the LS430, to me it's sporty.
LS430- proudly bland. i think that's toyota/lexus goal with the car. it has the most comfort features and conveniences than can be imagined. interior is definitely nicer than previous generations, and quantifiably probably has the most wood except the jag. however, the design is too bland, and lexus has carried on the same interior theme for 12 or so years. a change would be good perhaps more brightwork like the infiniti. it still is very funcitonal though. definitely the most reliable with the infiniti its only potential bester.
S class- great design outside, needs better plastic and material quality inside, though the concept is great. love the way the leather wraps around the seats and head restraints. needs more wood on the doors, looks like they took too many lessons from previous lexus cars on how to scrimp on the wood trim , though lexus has greatly improved on this. leaving MB a little spartan by comparison. still the icon of the category. Command needs to go or made much more simpler and DVD would be a better choice.
7 series- by far the best exterior design in the category for years, though the S class finally trumped it. interior has too many buttons and lacks a cohesive clean look. mostly because BMW constantly adds features and needs somewhere to put them!!! definitely the best handling. lots of room. of course it's about to be replaced. like the A8, it aged well. used to be my favorite for a number of years.
XJ8- exterior and interior reflect old world charm, though controls are a bit cheap and plain looking. of course there's not much more remarkable about the car, and it's about to be replaced in a year or two. but i still have bouts of wanting one, sometimes moreso than the other cars even though they may be technically better. it's that hood ornament. of course rationality takes over in the end, and the others ultimately win out.

adob

Why would Infiniti showcase a tape deck on the Q's center console? Does the majority of people still listen to tapes??? A technologically advanced car with 70's tech front and center....While I'm griping, what’s up with a trunk mounted CD changer in the MB S class?? Put the tape deck in the trunk or glove box and leave the CD were most people need it - easy to access, sheesh!

arcoates

I too think it is weird that they showcase the tape deck. They should have deleted the tape deck altogether. I know that the stereo is bundled in the naviagtion screen, but it's like in GM trucks how the CD player is separate from the head unit. It looks dumb all on it's own. They should have just left the signiature clock and showcased that.~ A.R.

mbaudibest1

i think the clock is still the focus however. the tape deck is kind of an accent, though making that a CD player would be more useful. can anyone tell me why there is an infiniti logo on the upper right section of the dash? is there a button or feature that goes there on some cars, and they were just filling in the space. it looks like an afterthought and a bit out of place.

arcoates

I noticed that too. I was in a a Buick Park Ave. the other day, and same thing, they had some extra space so they splash Buick up there. I think it was an afterthought~ A.R.

arcoates

Newest bmwfilms film is out, entitled the smash (I think). It is the best one of all. Guy Ritchie has a sensational sense of humour. It features his wife, Madonna in a fantastic car chase with a hilarious ending. Go see for yourself.

http://www.bmwfilms.com

~ A.R.

lemko

I still have plenty of cassettes in addition to CDs. Some of the music I have on cassette isn't available on CD. I think Infiniti made a wise decision on keeping a cassette player in the Q. Now, if they had an 8-track...

stebu

Heh, heh... a chrome accented 8-track. Now, there would be something to set peoples hearts a flutter.

mvargo1

Their wasn't enough room in that spot for an in dash CD changer so they put the cassette player there. If you are going to put a cassette player in the car you might as well make it look good.