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High End Luxury Cars



  • flint350flint350 Posts: 250
    Good Lord, what logic and plain misunderstanding and/or misrepresentation of fact!! That Cadillac "was once" the "standard" has nothing to do with Lexus' obvious competitor the Benz S. No knowledgable objective car mag/enthusiast/writer I have seen or read has ever said the DeVille is of such high quality. It is always praised as being better than Cadillac has been recently. Even Motor Trend (no fans of Lexus there) said in their comparo that the DTS simply didn't belong in the same contest with the Lexus/Benz/BMW.

    Saying Lexus simply can't compete with the Euros is futher evidence of very limited personal opinion being stated as fact. The vast majority of the automotive press disagree. Whether one or the other is slightly better, etc. is open to debate, but to say it "simply can't compete" borders on lunacy. Good grief, the very article quoted before this post clearly says, not only can the Lexus compete, but in their INFORMED and EXPERIENCED opinion, it is often equal or BETTER.

    You go on to say a DTS is the same for less money and therefore a better choice!!! This is downright foolishness - yet you refute your own logic by refusing to admit that the Lexus (who all agree is AT LEAST a real competitor of the Benz) is less expensive than the Benz with the same features,etc - making it a better value!

    As for MB's reputation for "rock solid" and never in for signif. service!!! Do you actually read what people (actual owners-not phony zealots) on this and the S Class board write about their various S Class experiences? Are they just phony liars trying to destroy the reputation of the S??
    Get real. You are entitled to your opinion, whether it is fact or fantasy based. But at least try to stick reasonably close to facts when you level criticism. The S Class is a very good car. The Lexus is a very good car. The BMW is a very good car. We all want to satisfy our personal needs in our choices. In choosing my LS430, I partly decided on reliability, quiet, interior and value. I would have spent the extra money on the S if it bought me something more - in my opinion, it didn't. I would have gotten less of what I wanted and paid $20K for the privilege.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    That was a sensible post. I agree on the DTS, wrong league. You chose the LS430 for the reasons important to YOU. I agree, I think they are ALL superb machines. My priorities are different. The features that are important to me relate to the road feel and handling of the car. The BMW is where smart money goes for a sporty attitude and a few compromises to achieve it. I still prefer the S class to the Lexus, I think its ride and handling combo is a good compromise between the isolation of the Lexus and the sporting flavor of the BMW. For MY tatse the Lexus looks and drives too bland for me. The ride and the luxo features were simply not important. I don't even own the navigation CD for my home area, never used the nav system at all. Just an example of priorities when buying cars in the same class.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    Did I ever say that the DTS is categorized in the same field as the rest? No, so don't you dare go off on a tantrum. I said that I think the DTS has about as much driving excitement as the Lexus. And I would rather spend my money on that if I was going to buy a luxo-cruiser, which is simply what the LS is.

    On the fact that the automotive world says that the Lexus is at or beyond the rest, that is pure crap. Edmunds own review said that for a Lexus, it is exremely sporty, but it still cannot compare with the Mercedes and BMW for driving excitement. And that is my focus- the Lexus is not a drivers car like the others. I ask you to find me a piece of writing by someone who has half a brain that says the Lexus will be more fun to drive than a BMW. Ha!

    I would rather spend the extra $10,000 to get some excitement out of my vehicle. In my eyes, it is not a better value because it puts the driver in complete isolation from the world. Yes, it is extremely quiet, like a vault, but I would like to hear what BMW has done with my V12 under hard acceleration.

    I do not dispute that the Lexus has all the bells and whistles that the rest have- hell that's what the Japanese are known for. I am simply stating that in the styling and engineering, they have copied the rest yet again, mostly Mercedes.

    As for your comment about being informed- I am a true car enthusiast who will read respectable publications such as R&T, Automobile, CAR and a battery of others. You americans think that Motor Trend and Car and Driver count for a lot. The rest of the world thinks that most of the american publications are so yankee biased, and only care about SUV's and big american V8's.

    Whatever choice someone wants to make, is their own business. This message board is for discussion, and that is purely what I am doing. I want to seek the opinions of others, and maybe dispute them. I am not mounting personal attacks on anyone, as you are FLINT350.

    Good luck with your LS430, maybe someday it will be called the "greatest car in it's class in 2001", but I doubt that!!!

  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    Webmaster- I would love to have a live chat about this topic. I see that the Mercedes S-Class board has a weekly chat, so I would like one here. If there already is one, then someone please tell me. I would like to meet, figuratively speaking, the people I spar with on a regular bases. Thanks

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Arcoates - you've lost it - give it a break. You're in way over your head here. Chill out.

    Merc1 - Of course Daimler took over Chrysler. But in acquisitions the actual owner is set up for legal and tax purposes. Do you think they are going to look for synergies and operationally consolidate Chrysler anywhere but in the auto group? Heavy equipment division - maybe? - comeon now. In my company some of the CEO's would fall off their chairs if they knew who legally owned their companies or divisions.

    As for the next Lexus LS modification you can bet your house on a LS500. In an article somewhere - not Edmunds - it mentioned that Lexus was toying with a V-12 for this model year but dropped it at the eleventh hour - so that's inevitabe too and it may come sooner than anyone thinks. They'll never make the equivalent of an S-55 or an AMG but not for the reasons you'd like to think. No one makes meaningful money on limited production/special edition/custom products in any business. They are usually loss leaders and CFO's cut them out the moment business goes south.

    One last thing - Toyota's market cap is $128BLN vs. $51bln for Daimler. It also has $12bln. more cash and $20bln less debt. I wouldn't doubt its wherewithall and I'm sure MB is smarter than you about them. They are the 800lb gorilla here.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    I resent that comment- why have I lost it, because I choose to voice my opinion? Yes, I agree that I may be a little forceful sometimes, and people may take offence, but that's part of my intention.

    I am very passionate about cars, and enjoy a heated discussion. I am pro-euro- no doubt about it. But I have not "lost it". I haven't called anyone stupid for buying something Japanese, or that they are complete hunks of crap. I have said everything but!

    And you are quite mistaken about being "in way over my head". There is a collection of people, includig merc1 by the sounds of it that agree that the german cars are best in class. I think that most of the professional automotive community would agree- that is what I have based my opinions on- by reading about the different choices and making the tough decision of what is best!

    I am sorry if I have offended anyone. It is not my intention. In my effort to create heated discussion, it may have come out that I want to condemn those who favour the japanese cars. I hope to converse about these issues in the future with all of you- you are knowledgable and good to talk, and sometimes fight with.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    That's a person who writes and thinks sensibly and that's what car selection at this level is all about. Each car serves a different niche and each one serves that niche better than the other. Your comments are all over the map. Go back and read them objectively and you'll see what I and I'm sure others here see. Merc1 loves his S-class cars too but his/her comments are quite sensible. He/She was trying to make you think more clearly with a comment earlier today.

    Relax and enjoy valentine's day. Life is too short to argue. Just get your point across and move on. Goodnight.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I agree that Lexus will do a LS500. I would too if I were them. Agreed. I agree with you on the DCX merger, but it will never work as far as Mercedes cars are concerned. They say the the 2 will never share platforms. I hope they don't. Ever. It's not about ownership of the company, I'm just saying the because Chrysler can't move enough 300M's doesn't mean Mercedes is going to be affected right away. Let me wrap the Lexus vs. Mercedes and other Euros like this. Lexus will always be the affordable car, the bargain. Mercedes and BMW will almost never be able to compete price for price with the Japanese. However for the true enthusiast BMW and Mercedes are the "better" cars. Performance, styling and design all go to the Germans. The more practical car is going to always be Japanese, but for anything over 30K I want some excitement and stimulation that only a European car can provide, and for me personally I can put up with a little less reliability in turn for more fun. It's cars like the S55 that make the case for the Euro brands. Nothing from Japan or America can substitue/compare. And Mercedes won't build a car that they are going to loose money on. They'll hike the price and sell less, they done it before, but never loose money on their core models (C,E,S, SL, CL,M). The A-Class might be a loosing sell but the cars we get here turn a profit, you can believe that.

    It's not like the S-Class is junk or even remotely close to it. Believe it or not but their are S-Class owners that haven't had any problems, like there are probably some LS430 owners that didn't get a flawless car either. I believe Automobile did a long-term test of the S500 and their car didn't have a single malfunction. For me and quite a few others the Lexus dealership experience, customer service and coffin-like silence of their cars isn't enough to warrant driving such a blah, ho-hum car.

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Good way to end it. But tell me something. Why is MB making the C Class look so much, at least frontally where it is an exact match, like the S-Class? Big tactical mistake in my opinion. For its price the S has to be unique. If I just shelled out $80k plus for an S-500 (or $110k plus for a 600) I don't want to see a $32k or so C in my rearview mirror right after I drive out of the showroom or on the dealers lot for that matter. This is one of the reasons why I walked away from the S. The other is that I felt exactly the same way as Flint 350 wrote in his post. As well the real money for these cars is in the 45+ age bracket. With the bull market dying the younger crowd, who the S is now aimed at, may not have the financial ability to buy the S. The "easy money" days unfortunately are over. This is another reason why Lexus may make a big move at MB soon.

    Personally I think the most beautiful MB is the E-Class. And maybe thats why I bought the LS430. The E is now MB's most Lexus like look. But it's far too small - the same size as a Camry at 189 inches long. If I'm MB I lenghthen that to 197 inches and make it my Lexus fighter. But the E is their bread and butter car so they may not have the gumption for that. I hope they don't change that to look like the S. Betting the ranch on one design would be very foolish.

    But never say never about Toyota. I'm sure in the 1980's people would have said Toyota could never have built a Lexus. In 1990 they were probably saying Lexus would never survive. Could'nt have been more wrong. Ten years from now these two companies will still be duking it out but there is now a big difference than ten years ago. MB does not have much,if any, margin for error.

    With that I'm through with this. Have a great day.
  • Could one of you Jag owners tell me what you think to many miles on a 98 XJ8 would be? 50K or 60K ?
    I also would like to know : when you buy the extended warranty does this add on to the cars mileage? Or is this like the Fords, when the warranty is just extended to that mileage on the warranty. For instance: If I buy a Jag with 40K mileage and purchase a 100K warranty does that mean I have a 140K warranty? or just an extra 60K
    extention? Thanks for all your help. By the way, I have had a Benz, and 3 Lexi. If you get a good lexus dealer, its very hard to find better service.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    Sometimes I guess. I have always felt that Lexus has had a place in this group. Ten years ago when the original LS400 was introduced Car and Driver put it up against the 560SEL, 750iL, and a Bently Turbo R. The only major failing cited was that it was considerably smaller inside than the BMW and Merc. It fared quite well, and continues to do so. I agree with Merc1 about MB reliability. While the cars have changed, some say cheapened, I still find them extremely impressive. The S55 is agressive looking, fast and offers the best compromise between ride and handling on the planet. I personally found the cockpit of the 750 to be more driver oriented and the V12 for the price of a V8 MB made the sale. While in the same catagory, I really don't see any sporting intentions from the LS430. Now this strikes me as how MB used to be, silently competant, capable when pushed but not eager to do so. With its latest offerings MB has offered wonderful sport and AMG variants. These approach BMW for driving excitement (some say match, some say exceed), I think that is a great image builder for MB. While I wouldn't quite go so far as to say Lexus couldn't get in there, I firmly believe they will never top the heap for sporting nature in any of their lines. The IS300 and GS400 are awesome machines, but I think they also reflect Lexus' conservative side. They have yet to go all the way and offer manual transmissions like BMW. I think Merc1 had it right, Lexus will always be competative and the value leader. I think the premium charged by MB and BMW DOES buy you something tangible. Not heritage or status but a driving feel gleaned from years of experience designing autobahn ready cars. So if you want a dead reliable luxury car loaded with features and racing around is not on your agenda, the Lexus is a GREAT car. Personally I enjoy running my 750 HARD on occasion. It is practically impossible to drive this car slow, it is born to run. Not something said about the LS430. Unless you are considering the S55 I think the S430 and S500 fall in the middle. I was very impressed by the air suspension, it corners flat, maybe flatter than the BMW and has a great ride. I feel dang lucky to be able to legitimately shop these cars. They are all awesome, not a lemon in the bunch, just diffrent flavors.

    Now to be a little less sensible and maybe a little antogonistic (all in fun). I can't stand the look of the Lexus. I know the Japanese have trouble being original with styling (at least original in a timeless sense) but the copy catting must be insulting to its buyers. I respect Toyota very much, but they will never surpass the Germans for top of the line luxo cars. Actually in my opinion they have fallen just short in every market vs. the Germans. They seem to stop shy of greatness and fall back on sterling reliability and service to close the gap. I call that CHICKEN! Leaders take risks, followers do just that, follow.

    P.S. ljflx, don't give up, your comments are needed for balance. There are plenty of folks like you for which the Lexus is perfect.
  • I stopped off to buy the last minute flowers yesterday and parked next to a brand new white/beige LS430 (I drive a S500). After shopping, the owner of the LS and I spent almost an hour discussing the various plusses and minusses of the two vehicles. Ifound it very interesting to hear these things from the perspective of an LS owner.
    LS owner perspective:
    LS 430 plusses:
    1. value
    2.quietness of cabin
    3. luxury ammenities
    4. Mark Levinson Stereo (I agree)
    LS 430 negatives:
    1. exterior appearance
    2. no good integrated phone option
    3. grey wood
    4. leather is wearing unevenly
    5. floaty handling
    S500 plusses
    1. prestige
    2. handling
    4. voice activation
    5 techno features (height adj., stiffness adj)
    6.exterior looks
    S500 negatives:
    2.not enough wood
    3.complicated COMAND

    I guess one's choice depends on what is important to the individual, but it was nice to talk with someone without feeling ashamed.
    Sorry for the long post.
  • I think the thing that people here take offense to is not your opinions, but the way you express them. When you call something "crap" and disparage the intelligence of those who may disagree with you, you lower the level of this debate to a mud-slinging contest. That does neither you nor your opinions any favors, because people feel they have to contest them out of self-respect, if nothing else. We're here to discuss and disagree, but not to attack each other.

    By the way -- since our host informs me that I cannot quote directly from AutoWorld, I have paraphrased my previous post below:

    The AutoWorld article I told you about lists the 740iL first because of its styling and driving dynamics -- it's simply the most fun.

    However, the Lexus LS430 was only half a point behind. The Lexus' fit and finish, ergonomics and comfort are superb, and it is actually a little faster than the BMW. it is also a heck of a value. It just doesn't have the entertainment and fun of the BMW.

    The Mercedes was rated a strong third, but the high price, ergonomics, fit and finish, and lack of performance made it noncompetitive with the BMW and the Lexus.

    The Jaguar was last in almost every category; however, its heritage and style are still magical, and the price is very attractive.

    My observations: the Lexus narrowly beat out the BMW for acceleration honors (the Bimmer was a 740il with the V8), and far outclassed the Mercedes (6.4/14.5 vs 7.1/15.0). I've also driven all three (the Bimmer, Merc and Lex) back to back, and while I loved the Bimmer, I still don't care for the Mercedes handling dynamics. The article added that the Lexus interior "sets the standard," and that its fit-and-finish is "the benchmark of the industry." The article went on to criticize the Merc for its sloppy transmission ("gear changes don't come quickly enough and aren't as smooth as the BMW and Lexus") and its ergonomics and materials ("In a car costing nearly $80,000, the plastics in the Benz are disappointing.") Oh yeah --the Lexus was the least expensive too, by a long shot -- it was $61, the Jag $65, the BMW $71 and the Merc $78. So I would hardly call this comparison test a victory for Mercedes.

    As a final point, I would like to share my obsservation that when people get angry and abusive, it's usually because they're unsure of their ground. (This last point has been amplified by some of the posts that followed this one!)

    Now back to the games...
  • flint350flint350 Posts: 250
    If, in my post, I seemed to "personally attack" you, I apologize. I did not intend to - only to refute what I saw as blatant errors or misstatements. I re-read my own post and don't really see a personal attack (though possibly my use of the words lunacy and zealots were taken that way - again, sorry). As for "you Americans", I didn't know your background and never impugned it in any way. In fact, I made no assumptions about it. Those kind of comments have no place here except in how they can reflect our differing opinions based on potentially different cultures - not on the validity of our opinions. Lastly, I agree with denniswade, in that it is your presentation that causes concern, not your opinion. I don't mind disagreement, but I do mind yelling and lecturing. My choice was right for me, as I am sure yours is for you - and I completely respect that. Again, my apologies if I inadvertently offended.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    Well then we have all calmed down, including myself, and things can continue on a civil level. I agree that my original comments were quite antagonistic, and I am sorry.

    As for my comment regarding "amercians". I took your previous comment about me being ignorant t heart, as I view myself as an informed individual. In turn, my comments were not meant as a racial slurr in any way, just that I have been schooled in the european way of thinking- that the emphasis be on driving dynamics and not on large engines and flashy chrome. So my comments stem from people quoting Motor Trend and Car and Driver, when in my opinion they do favour the big V8, and other non-relevant details. I'm sorry if it came off sounding anything but.

    So, I guess what I am trying to say is that I realize your frustrations in the way my material was presented. I will try to keep my emotions out of my posts from now on, because they always show through in my writing. Sorry!

  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    On a different note- and I will try to put this as delicately as possible:

    If you believe that Lexus is a major competitor to BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Jaguar, is Lexus going to introduce any special versions of their cars to compete with M, AMG, S and R respectively?

  • wbwynnwbwynn Posts: 246
    Or does this Europeon car frenzy just totally consume you?

    No one wants to fight with you...OK
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    Hey, hey, lay off. I've made my apologies, and I want to go on. I am truly interested to know if Lexus is going to make the next step- introduce a tuning division. I think that is needed to really play with the big boys, because they all have one. Even Acura, who is lower down on the scale has the S-Type version of it's cars. So I would like to know if anyone has heard anything about this?

  • wbwynnwbwynn Posts: 246
    I honestly don't know about a tuning has to be there, but I can wait on that LS55.
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    It seems to be the next logical step to me. I think a V12 can wait, what they need is some high performance vehicles to once and for all silence people like me! That market is growing more everyday with the growth in the economy and all of the new money. Even though forecasters say that the market is slowing down, I have heard that the high class markets won't be that affected. The rich always seem to stay rich, even in hard times. I would like to see a TL5 ("T" as in toyotas tuning moniker, L to denote the LS, and 5 to denote a 5L V8). Even I would take notice of that!!!~ A.R.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    Glad you've gotten it back. I would'nt be surprised if that next move by Lexus includes the enthusiasts car but I wouldn't be surprised if they bypassed it either. They've made a conservative move toward that with the euro suspension. This company is making some of the best business moves I've ever seen in the super luxury class though. I know it irks you that they copied MB in 1990 but if it was out of respect that was only a small part of the reason. The real purpose was to destroy the MB's uniqueness at a fraction of the price. How do you take on the market leader - copy him, differentiate slightly and build in qualities that make his weaknesses standout (note Lexus' realibility) and lastly price it a lot lower so his would be customers come to you. Pure business strategy but to an enthusiasts that makes him a copycat. That strategy was quite successful. In 1990 the LS400 sold for about 40% the price of an S-500 but today a comparably equipped LS430 sells for 80% of the S-500. Lexus price went up while MB's price dropped. All evidence of a well executed strategy.

    What comes next - copy the engine sizes but differentiate elsewhere. They've got the customer base to be bold now and as much as they are conservative in styling they are quite bold in business. Do you have any idea how much was at stake in their investment to build the Lexus brand? Do you realize how little it would mean to their bottom line to hire a team of Italian designers for the next model. They'd make $7.52bln instead of $7.53bln. - big deal. Don't underestimate this company or how easy it is to build in a bold new style for one model. That's where I'd bet they will go.

    I'm afraid that what Lexus accomplished in 1990 signalled the end of the stand-alone super luxury car brand. Once it started to pass its technology to the everyday Toyotas after a 2-3 year exclusive for Lexus it meant it had a huge edge over MB,BMW and Jag. It had a car base to leverage that technology - they didn't. Thats why Jag went to Ford and MB got Chrysler though that latter deal should have been the other way around. Of course Toyota has Lexus and Nissan has Infiniti. The two oddballs left are GM and BMW. BMW is private so they don't have to put up with public market pressures but they won't survive long-term if they don't move at some point. GM's got to have a luxury brand so that looks like a marriage to me. It's got to happen. BMW's cars may be impressive but it's financials are not. Company has shown no revenue growth in past three years and its profit margins are weakening. Look at its margins compared to Toyota.

    By the way Nissan is now run by a German and that new Q coming in April has a 340 engine and is aimed right at BMW at a much lower price. It may have taken a German now based in Japan to get them finally going and that guy is going to cause a lot of Germans in Germany to lose a lot of sleep. That new Z looks pretty awesome to.

    Bottom line in all this is simple. The playing field has been levelled and the landscape has been permantly changed all because of the copying of a great car by a great company. End of story.
  • bwhbwh Posts: 76
    none of that adresses the simple fact that the Japanese have yet to be able to copy the "driving feel" provided by the Germans, albiet for a premium. I think that is my beef with Lexus, I think this is what some of us (arcroates, merc1, myself) are trying to impress upon the Lexus fans. Now it appears that this is simply not important to some buyers. If that is the case the Lexus is the perfect car for such buyers. Toyota/Lexus is undeniably an impressive automotive presence with very deep pockets. Until they figure out how to put some real style in their designs and build some great driving dynamics into their cars, those of us who buy cars primarily for those reasons will continue to shop BMW and Mercedes-Benz.
  • The BMWs and Mercedes have a certain "feel" that is recognizable even if you were blindfolded. If blindfolded in a Lexus, one would not be able to differentiate between the Lexus, a Cadillac DeVille or a Lincoln Town Car (not that there's anything wrong with that). That's not necessarily a bad thing, it just depends what you are looking for (but I still can't get over the ugly exterior of the LS430).
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    This is what I am trying to say- lexus still isn't a drivers car. They have done a great job of producing many things, but driving excitement isn't one of them. I guess my point wasn't getting across because I was too blatant.

    Anyway- I do agree that nowadays, the luxury marques have to have some big car company muscle behind them to stay alive. Jaguar was floundering when Ford snapped them up. Mercedes-Benz was okay, because they bought Chrysler. BMW is going to have to do it sooner or later, and I hope it is GM, but I doubt it, and this is why:

    You may not want to hear this, but when the STS moves to the sigma RWD platform in a couple of years, it will be competition for the cars we talk about here. It has most everything it needs to play in this league, except (a)RWD and (b) a quality problem.

    It's getting RWD, so all GM has to do is step up it's quality control. The interiors are designed beautifully, it's just that they sometimes use low-rent materials, and they have the tendency to fall apart.

    If they can get those two things right, I think they will be a major player. Can anyone deny that the Northstar isn't a gem? If they increase displacement, they could easily get 350hp, and be right in with these guys. Exterior styling is nice, better than the LS I think, some pretty high-tech gadgets, advanced chassis. I think it will become a major player in this market.~ A.R.
  • wbwynnwbwynn Posts: 246
    The LS would be easy to pick out from these would be more quiet in every way imaginable.
  • That is illogical-why have the Flagship (Deville) in the middle of the pricing spectrum, under the (STS). The Flagship is not always the most expensive car, but usually is the top of the line sedan
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,690
    bwh - Maybe they are simply not interested in you. I'm sure market research shows those (as in you) buyers to be in the minority otherwise given their business moves they would have come to the party a long time ago.

    Arcoates - your dream cadillac has a snowballs chance in hell of happening. I think GM gets BMW but then they have lots of licensing agreements with Toyota. How about a GM/Toyota merger. Nah - neither government would allow it.

    Where's Merc1 - I miss him.
  • axel4axel4 Posts: 6
    I am close to ordering a 530. Then decided to look at used 740i's or 740iL.The idea was, could a used 740 be a better decision than a new 5 series. Could I save a few dollars ?,but have the ride, control,and over all car be better? One is probably into the 1998 versions of the 740 before reaching cost parity with a new 5 series. Can any one comment basically on the differences and preferences between a used 740 and the new 530?
  • ejerodejerod Posts: 86
    I've been away for awhile and wow I missed all the fireworks. As I've said in previous posts I own both a Lexus and a Mercedes . They are of two different classes. The Lex is a 99 GS 300, the Benz a 2001 S 500 /AMG sports package. I first bought the Lexus because of it's unique styling, value and Lexus reputation for reliability. Here's the report:
    Two weeks after I bought the GS-service engine light comes on. It seems Lexus had a problem with the supplier of the chip that regulated this. The chips were defective. Result recall on the chips. Some people had the problem some didn't. It affected GS and LS models according to the dealer. It took 3 weeks for the chip to get in.

    One month after owning the GS, the glove box was rattling had to be replaced.

    About the same time the sunshade rattled, had to be tightened.

    2 months ago, GS radio had to be replaced due to malfunctions.

    Now the Benz. COMAND system had to be replaced due to software issues.

    My point is this. No matter what the manufacturer's marketing departments trumpet and what J. D. Powers and all the other pundits proclaim, the fact is these cars are wonderful machines but they are fallible no matter who manufactures them. That being said, do I regret my buying decisions ? Not at all. Like I said I own both and seriously considered buying the LS430 because I am so pleased with the GS300. But in the world of ultra luxury MB wins the big luxo car battle. Did I pay more ? of course.. do I regret it ? Absolutely not. Now please don't go quoting the so called Auto mags. For every article one can produce of the Lexus or BMW or Jag being the better car there are at lease 2 others that state the opposite. It's all subjective . Bottom line ? Buy what you choose for whatever reason. It's funny that no one says to the Bently owner " for 300k you could have had 4.5 LS430's or 3 S600's " Do you really think the Bently owner cares ? And yes I drove the Bently too and considered a 2000 Bently Arnage that was slightly less than 200k. So it is with the MB owners. Yes we could have saved 15-30k, but we really, really,don't care.... at least I don't.. so enjoy what you drive and let's all join hands and sing
  • arcoatesarcoates Posts: 221
    I think I am right on this one. The DTS will stay FWD, because if they move it to RWD, it is too much competition for each other. The STS and DTS are extremely close in price, and the features are pretty much the same. GM doesn't have a car to play in that market, and I don't think they are willing to spend a ton of money to get BMW. They would much rather just improve and existing model. The DTS is the flagship true- but their client base for that one is old men. Yes, the average age is lowering, but it is still a retirement complex car. The STS has always been touted as a drivers car, and so far it hasn't. When they move it to RWD, things will change.~ A.R.
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