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High End Luxury Cars

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  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    RE: Post #1774.

    That's the first time I have heard a Lexus interior called Gawdy.

    Also, according to a friend who works at Lexus Eastern Region office in New Jersey, the LX470 will be redesigned and will be taken further upmarket, in the Range Rover neighborhood.
  • The problem with the LX 470 is its Toyota sibling Land Cruiser is probably killing it in sales since it is the same truck. Most people would buy the Cruiser at $50,000 alot quicker than a $60,000+ LX 470. They look too much alike except the front view and you could not tell the difference if the badges and emblems were totally removed. So, it probably makes more since to get a Land Cruiser.

    Personally for more luxury features, I would choose the Lexus but other than that it does not sell as well now days.

    Several years ago, sales monthly was a little over 1,000+ now they are at between 500-600 or so.

    Also too Lexus is beginning to be like Ford and Chevelot. How come they have to have several truck models. That is ridiculous. Think about it, RX 300 (Camry based), GX 470, and LX 470. Lexus only needs a car base truck and a pure truck base SUV like Cadillac with its SRX and Escalade variants is enough for any luxury automaker.

    J "CaddyLac"
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    maxhonda:

    I stand corrected about the RX300's sales but I still maintain that Lexus will continue to fall down the sales list. Lexus vehicles have no sense of style and they are no longer the bargains they used to be because the other automakers continue to come out with lower priced luxury vehicles to increase sales. The new Rx300 isnt going to make nearly the impact of the first one. When the first one came out it had no competition except the ML320. Next year the RX330 will compete with the X5, ML, SRX, Envoy, XC90 and MDX. IN other words the competition will be much stiffer. CAdillac is right behind Lexus this year in sales, BMW is first, ad the SRX will be enough to push it past lexus next year or the year after. The SRX fills a major hole in the lineup and unlike the RX300 it will be something new and fresh. Cadillac's lineup is smaller and older than Lexus' lineup and it's still close to lexus in sales. Once you add the ESV, XLR and SRX it wll be good position to pass lexus. The new GS and RX are replacement models, not an expansion of lexus lineup.

    How old is old? I am talking 50s and 60s. I have seen many Deville drivers who looked to be in their 40s or early 50s. Most LS430 drivers ae beyond retirement in this area. I think they went from Buicks to the LS430. To be honest, the lexus model I hear the most about from people my age is the RX300. The Es is horrible looking (also a favorite of guys in their 60s), the GS is dated and the RX looks like a civic with big wheels. On styling alone I think BMW, MB and CAdillac will outsell cadillac next year. BTW, BMW has four models coming out next year and two of those will be affordable. If you erase the Lexus price advantage it starts to lose its luster compared to the prestigous German marques.
  • pcbrspcbrs Posts: 56
    According to J.D. Power's 2002 APEAL (Automotive Performance, Execution And Layout) the LS430 is the winner in the Premium Luxury Car category. Sounds like it has a lot of "appeal" according to the survey.

    -Jeff
  • carnaughtcarnaught Posts: 1,569
    I had once heard that "old people drive Lexus' and that their parents drive Cadillacs". I've also heard that a Cadillac service lounge is "heaven's waiting room".
  • Don't you think that Lexus actually should be thanking Mercedes for it's design of the previous and current a-class cars?(not to mention the m-class. Total rip-off of an ML). I mean without Mercedes-Benz, Lexus would be designing all of its cars like the sc430 which in my opinion is by far one of the most hideous cars on the road today. Lexus needs to come up with some innovative designs instead of copying everything from everyone else. Lexus will always be at the bottom of my list, as the cheap rip-off imitation Mercedes-Benz. This is not directed to any particular person. This is my opinion. So I don't want any of you lexuslovers to be up my [non-permissible content removed] about this okay? Ok
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    I think we can ALL express our opinions without others of us reacting in such graphic, provocative terms.

    Let's everyone relax for a bit, okay?

    There is NO need to take someone else's different opinion as a personal affront. Just talk about your own perspectives without attempting to berate others into seeing things the same way you do.

    That ain't a'gonna work -- EVER, no matter how much you berate and carry on.

    If some of you would just calm down and think about it rationally, you would realize that pissing off the very people you'd like to convince gets you a minus zero in what you were trying to accomplish.

    And then there is the fact of how silly and how off-putting these diatribes look to the truly impartial readers of this mess.

    Lighten up, try to be level-headed, and above all, do not attack... Attacking another is what destroys your own credibility.

    Seriously.
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    October 8th, 2002:

    The 2002 APEAL study is based on responses from more than 117,800 new-vehicle owners and comprises eight specific areas of vehicle performance and design that identify what consumers like and dislike about their new vehicles during the first 90 days of ownership. These areas are: vehicle exterior styling; engine and transmission; comfort and convenience; ride, handling and braking; seats; heating, ventilation and cooling; cockpit and instrument panel; and sound system. The study is in its seventh year...

    The E Class, C Class, and S Class MB's did not make top 3 in any classification. The SL and CL came in 2nd/3rd in luxury category behind LS430 because JDPA combines two categories.

    A .pdf download with the details is at

    http://www.jdpa.com/pdf/2002105.pdf.

    This study is important is because it actually reflects a statistically significant reflection of ownership experience.

    Most Appealing Compact Car MINI Cooper
    Most Appealing Compact Pickup Ford Explorer Sport Trac
    Most Appealing Compact Van Honda Odyssey
    Most Appealing Entry Luxury Car Ford Thunderbird
    Most Appealing Entry Midsize Car Hyundai Sonata
    Most Appealing Entry Sport Utility Vehicle Honda CR-V
    Most Appealing Full-Size Car Ford Crown Victoria
    Most Appealing Full-Size Pickup Cadillac Escalade EXT
    Most Appealing Full-Size Sport Utility Vehicle Ford Excursion
    Most Appealing Full-Size Van GMC Savana
    Most Appealing Luxury Sport Utility Vehicle Cadillac Escalade
    Most Appealing Mid Luxury Car Lincoln Town Car (2003)
    Most Appealing Midsize Sport Utility Vehicle Toyota Highlander
    Most Appealing Premium Luxury Car Lexus LS 430
    Most Appealing Premium Midsize Car Toyota Avalon
    Most Appealing Premium Sports Car Audi TT
    Most Appealing Sporty Car Acura RSX
  • footiefootie Posts: 636
    More news and this from Germany-- MB finishes 8th behind Subuaru (7th)! Diahatsu(6th),... Toyota sales in Europe increased 16% September, Mercedes 1%. ..


    Toyota Motor Corporation vehicle models, which include Lexus, top the rankings in six out of seven segment award categories, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2002 Germany Customer Satisfaction Index (CSI) StudySM released today.


    http://www.jdpa.com/studies/pressrelease.asp?StudyID=674&CatID=1


    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Executive/Luxury Cars Nissan Maxima

    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Lower Medium Cars Toyota Corolla

    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Multi-Purpose Vehicles Toyota Picnic

    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Small Cars Toyota Yaris

    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Sports Cars Toyota Celica

    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Sports Utility Vehicles Toyota RAV4

    Highest in Customer Satisfaction among Upper Medium Cars Lexus IS200

  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Since the average Lexus buyer is 53 years old (by the way the average MB buyer is 52) there must be a lot of teenagers driving Lexus cars to get the average down based on your stats. The last time I had my LS430 in for service there wasn't a person over 50 dropping off a car. I also got a newly created Lexus magazine in the mail today and the ads in it - Brioni suits, Nieman Marcus etc - are not aimed at the demographics you speak of. What exactly is your source of data?

    Glamourlife - the new Jag interior must also look glossy and gawdy to you since it looks like a Lexus derivative or should I say copy. Regardless it's beautiful, maybe even beats the LS430 - and I'm not a Jag fan. That is the quality interior an $80+k MB should have.
  • Okay look I am sorry but guess what!?!?!?!?!?! The new s-class is at MBUSA.com Check it out!!!!!!!
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    See, the pessimism continues. I basically have issues with your entire post.
    First and foremost, let’s begin at continue to fall down the sales list. How long has Lexus been falling down
    The sales list? Year to year, sales have been rising for over the last five years. Not just that but in 2000 & 2001 I believe, Lexus was the best selling luxury nameplate in the United States, ahead of Mercedes & BMW, and far ahead of Cadillac & Lincoln. And BMW is probably going to sell more cars in the United States for 2002, but not by much. And Lexus & BMW will still be far ahead of Cadillac in terms of sales figures for 2002. This is of course in a recession. Despite your pessimism, I’m a bit more optimistic and realistic in that you can expect, if the economy holds steady, that Lexus sales-with the introduction of new products during the 2003 model year, will go grow even further. I apologize for bursting your bubble, but don’t expect Cadillac to gain that much ground, considering they will merely have the new SRX and XLR(Low-production) next year. I would still expect Cadillac sales to grow by about 5K to 6K units a month next year due to these 2 products.

    Yes, the RX300 had minimal competition when it first came out, but since last year when the RX300 was in it’s 4th year, the RX300 had plenty of competition-the ML line grew since 1998 from just the ML320 to the ML430 and M55, the X5 came out, the MDX was introduced, Toyota’s own Highlander came out, and it’s had the Infiniti QX4 as competition. Yes, RX300 sales are still strong and it’s still outsells the MDX(which is better), the ML-class & X5.

    Gimme a break, Cadillac sales are off about 30K units thru Sep-02. I see 145K units thru Sep-02 vs. 176K for Lexus thru Sep-02. Cadillac is hardly right behind Lexus or BMW. “Right Behind” would be proper if it was said
    Lexus was “right behind” BMW in sales. While I am talking about sales figures, let’s discuss Deville fleet sales to limo companies and the sort. A further inflation of sales figures.

    How old? I have seen people around age 30 to 40 driving Deville’s. But, a shock, they are all driving cars that they don’t own but Deville’s which their employers own, the Limo companies. Otherwise, I basically see 50+ set driving Deville’s. While on this topic, let’s not fail to point out that most people in their 30, 40s, or even 50s can afford $60K+ cars, which means you shouldn’t even be comparing the Devilles demographic age group to the LS430’s age group. The Average deville transaction price is probably a good $20K lower than a LS430’s. BTW, how many 40 year olds do you see driving a S-class around or a 7-series? Not a whole lot. Why? Similar to above, not a whole lot of people in the 40 to 50 age group can afford $70K cars. Psst. You generally have to have more $$$ to buy a LS430, S-class, or 7-series. And $$$ usually comes thru acquisition(working).

    The ES300 is no beauty queen, but let’s get real, the CTS is one of the ugliest cars, IMO, in the automotive industry. Styling is subjective, so let’s not go there, since obviously Lexus styling clicks with more people that Cadillac styling does.

    “If you erase the Lexus price advantage it starts to lose its luster compared to the prestigous German marques” The same can be said about Cadillac. If you erase Caddy’s price advantage it loses even more luster compared to luxury cars that are actually prestigious.
  • brtmdbrtmd Posts: 54
    zachmbenzfvr: Saw the info on the website. The S is a great looking vehicle (still). The wheels in the photos are killer. Although I'm pretty sure I saw some light reflecting off of a gawdy piece of plastic in one of the interior photos.

    Even if Lexus isn't thanking MB, I am. When I was recently out to replace the family vehicle (wife, 9 y/o, and 7 y/o), MB was (as usual) at the top of my shopping list with the new 7 series next. I decided to give the LS a look for the first time. What I found was that, in the full size "premium luxury" category, Lexus was building a better MB than MB. Not only that, I got to put $25k back in my pocket--best "cheap rip-off imitation Mercedes-Benz" I've ever found. Your comments reminded me of what my MB salesman said to me when I was evaluating the S class: "It's [the S] a great car for someone who has to have the S." If you are the kind of person who needs to have the extra perceived cache of the S, by all means pony up--it is also a very fine vehicle. (That didn't go up too far did it?)

    BTW, in any other vehicle category I would have been sticking with MB or BMW (which one depends on the category as a result of variations in my priorities). Which means (gasp!) that I have found a tiny fragment of common ground with glamourlife: Congratulations on your new E500. A beautiful car IMO.
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    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • nealm1nealm1 Posts: 154
    Gosh, Lexus must be sitting pretty; it is the car of choice for OLD people, and as the population ages, all us prostate patients will be looking for cushy cars to drive. And I suppose the S500s and 745i's are the must-have for freshmen on the college campuses this year?

    Do me a favor: Count the number of 20-30 year olds you see this week in S classes. The tell me about the LS being an old person's car.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Question, just curious...what did you guys drive before you bought your first Lexus?

    M
  • ejerodejerod Posts: 86
    Geez.. when I said I was young I didn't mean to incite an age riot.. lol. You're right.. there aren't many 20-30 year olds driving any of these cars. My statement, as are all the statements here, was subjective. My point being that the younger generations do not like the styling of the LS430. But the demographic that Lexus targeted with that car was 47 year olds with an annual income of 200k. These are the people that can typically buy just about anything they want as far as a luxury car goes. So as far as hitting the target goes, Lexus has been successful. In fact I'd say Bullseye. I'm a private banker by trade with my own firm. I have quite a few wealthy young clients from entertainers to athletes. Of the hundreds I know that do own everything from Audi's to Lamborghini's ( and I'm talking about people that are under 40 in my client base) I only know 3 that own the LS430. No, it isn't a scientific survey by any means and I'm sure someone will find a hundred different articles or studies to argue a point, but that's my observation. The LS430 just looks too bland, whereas the BMW, MB, even Jaguars look like they can eat up asphalt, make a killer cappacino , and allow you to buy season tickets all without breaking a sweat. In the words of a friend of mine that's a professional race car driver. The S class may not be able to outperform a Porshe, but by the looks of it, you know it isn't scared to try. The LS430 on the other hand looks as though it will cower and cry for it's mother .
  • maxhonda99maxhonda99 Posts: 1,289
    "the BMW, MB, even Jaguars look like they can eat up asphalt, make a killer cappacino , and allow you to buy season tickets all without breaking a sweat. In the words of a friend of mine that's a professional race car driver. The S class may not be able to outperform a Porshe, but by the looks of it, you know it isn't scared to try. The LS430 on the other hand looks as though it will cower and cry for it's mother " Those are the corniest two sentences I have read in a long time. Especially the the "killer cappacino, and allow you to buy season tickets" part. Really, no sensibility to that.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    i had too many typos in my last message and I apologize for that.

    I dont see how the RX300 can be called a continuing success if it was selling close to 90K units a few years ago and is selling around 60K now. I don't know what the exact sales figures are but 31% of 200K sales is close to 60K a year. The new one will never hit the sales levels of the first model which was a pioneer.The SRX, X3 and other competition will limit it's success in the market.

    Listen, I dont have a problem with old people buying cars, that's the media's problem. All I'm saying is that people need to acknowledge that Lexus models other than the IS and RX do not appeal to younger buyers. Now if you live in an area where no one drives anything that isnt an import (CA for example) I can understand why you think all people strive to own a Lexus but that isnt the case here. I have never seen an LS430 driver with hair that wasnt gray. The old model wasnt much better in that regard but this model seems to be a hit with retirees.

    If Cadillac was to add 5 or 6K units a month next year it would surpass lexus in sales. Cadillac barely has a price advantage versus the Germans. They have nothing to compete with the 7 series or class but when you look at the prices of other models they arent cheap. The Deville's prce range is $42-58K, Seville $46K-57K, CTS $30K-$40K, escalade $50K-$56K. Next year Cadillac will have a model that is more expensive than any Lexus. We cant dispute who sells more cars but if you look at the average sale price of a CAdillac and a Lexus we know who will have the advantage. Most of Lexus' sales come from three models that cost under $40K and cadillac only has one model that sells for under $40K.

    Also, I dont think anyone buys a lexus for the looks. Let's be realistic. Out of all the major Luxury makers Lexus has the worst styling. call it subjective if you want to but I never hear anyone that doesnt own a lexus call their cars attractive. The CTS isnt the best looking car but it is conveying a consistent theme which cant be said about any lexus. WHen you see the CTS next to the Slade and XLR it begins to make some sense. I would fix the rear end, but other than that it is a sharp and modern looking car. Lexus has no common design theme and as a result their cars do not match except for their grilles.

    Cadillac, Infiniti and eventually Lincoln (hopefully) are going to do the same thing in the 2000s that Lexus did in the 90s. They are going to re-establish themselves with new products and performance and someon is going to pay in terms of sales. My guess is that Lexus is going to be the primary casualty.
  • ljflxljflx Posts: 4,661
    Whenever the assembly line is re-tooled to produce a new design - as is the case right now with the RX300 - you have lower production and hence lower sales. The plant is operating usually at 33% less efficiency. That is also why the new model takes a while to reach full production after it is introduced. LS400 sales dropped to 14,000 in its last year and zoomed to 33,000 in 2001 with the new model. Don't read anything into sales stats in the last year of a model - its a production issue not a sales issue.

    For Merc 1 - Acura Legend and please lighten up a bit. It was a great car. Like my 95 LS400 a friend bought it and took my 60k break-in miles to over 300k miles before the car started to have problems. The 95 LS400 has over 200k miles and is still functioning well. I must do something right when these cars are in their baby years though I do drive them hard and fast.
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