Honda Civic vs. Hyundai Elantra

elantra00

i would like to respond to 2 things that you said in post 318.

-You said, "The BEST warranty of all is the one you never have to use!!"

Well, I havent used the warranty yet in 4,000 miles to date, richsap in 8,000 miles and baber in 22,000 miles, all trouble free. So it seems the elantra is reliable and is kicking the civic in the [non-permissible content removed]. Also, if it ever comes a problem, common sense says use the warranty once in awhile, which costs nothing, then spend $6000 more then i have to on a car with the same features. (my friends civic ex, $17000 ) And i have heard stories of blown head gaskets on the civic and transmission problems on the V6 accord, after warranty period has been up. So it is not as reliable as you think.....all depends on the owner. I have a 96 jeep cherokee with 90,000 miles on it. Not one problem ever. like i said, all depends on the owner.

-and you said...."And...you *pay* for that warranty. It's figured into the price of the car!"

Who cares if you pay for that warranty. The elantra is already the cheapest car in price (not quality) out there right now. You cant get cars that loaded with features any cheaper. So, if you pay for that warranty, then how much better of a deal can the elantra be without the warranty.

Bottom line: The elantra is better then the civic. more hp, cheaper, more features, warranty. And it is proving itself reliable, as i mentioned the people above who had trouble free miles with their hyundais. and even if it had problems....fixed for free w/ warranty

Isellhondas: Do you think hyundai would back their cars with that 100k mile warranty if it was a piece of crap? They want to show everyone that their cars are reliable now, just as any honda or toyota. they have changed. Like you for instance, back before you sold cars for a living, you were problay a nice decent guy. but once started selling hondas, you saw how you can sucker people into buying, and then became a sleezebag like most salesman. except for hyundai its the reverse. if they weren't built well, then they would lose a lot of money, so they made sure they werent!

This is not just for isell, its for all those people who are blindly led thinking that the civic is the best deal out there. It aint.

isellhondas

When a forum has to turn ugly through insults and name calling...pretty sad.

Boltguy,

People get "upside down" on car loans with all makes and models. You probably wouldn't believe what I've seen. People decide on a whim to buy a car only to get tired of it a year later.

Of course, the cars that depreciate the most are the biggest problems.

Like the guy I had last week who owed 20,000 on a '97 Taurus! Best bid we could get was 8500.00 from a Ford dealer who really didn't want it.

I only jumped in here to post some opinions based on experience. Hyundai has no doubt come a long way...I respect that. They still have a hard job ahead of them.

I hardly think that stating an opinion is bashing a car.

george00

Depending upon model, $8500 is actually, according to Edmunds, about average for the make. In fact, Accord or Camry only fetch around $1000 more. But how does someone owe $20,000 on a car worth less than half of that? Obviously, the lender is highly unsecured, which few lenders will allow to happen. Sounds like your customer really got taken.

isellhondas

I think it was really a 1998 model.

Yeah, the bank is seriously overadvanced on it.

My guess is that he was buried in something else and got double buried in the Taurus.

Too bad he doesn't like it anymore...he will have it for a long time!

hovardt

Hey gang,

It's been VERY entertaining reading all your postings, thanks I've learned quite a bit.

As some of us, I was reluctant to look at Hyundais because of their rep but after reading, it looks like reliability has greatly improved especially in the last few years. I originally wanted an Accord because of the great resale (isellhondas IS very right about this), but I just can't afford paying so much more. If I can get a new Elantra to last 130k miles for half as much, I'd be much better off financially.

Anyway, my concern is the transmission. Right now I have a N. Sentra with a standard transmission and I do quite a bit of stop and go and up and down hills where I live and I'm tired of constant shifting. I'm leaning for an '00 automatic Elantra but I've heard rumors of previous Hyundais with transmission problems.

My questions for the panel are: How durable is the '00 automatic transmission? Should I be safe and get a standard? What exactly will the warrenty cover?

Thanks in advance,
Future Elantra Owner?

elantra00

no posts in long time...not even from Isellhondas. Well, at the end of over 300 heated posts about which car is better, the elantra obviously wins. thousands cheaper, more features at a lower price, outstanding warranty, more horsepower then the civic. (excluding SI, which is double the price) CASE CLOSED.

isellhondas

I guess the public decides through the number of sales...

But, you are right about one thing...the Elantra is definately cheaper!

I wonder why...?

george00

Hyundais are cheapers than Hondas for many reasons, among them the fact that both labor and steel are cheaper in Korea than they are in Japan or the US. This is exactly how Honda got started in the American automobile market some years ago, when labor and steel were cheaper in Japan than they were in the US. This has nothing whatever to do with quality - indeed, after a shaky start, Japanese cars soon were better built than American cars, though for a while the Japanese cars continued to be cheaper. In the early 1980s, I lived in Germany, where a Mercedes was cheaper than a Chevrolet, which had to do with labor costs, shipping, currency exchange, and other factors, none of them (obviously) relating to quality. I suspect isellhondas is familiar with this history. It's a shame he feels so compelled to attempt invidious comparisons between Hyundai and other cars, he is willing to make statements and inuendos he knows are unjustified.

elantra00

Thank you george, appreciate the back-up! Isellhondas, lets not forget that Japan and the United States are among the richest nations in the world. So, obviously, things are going to be expensive with such a strong economy. Korea is not quite there yet. They are not as developed as these 2 countries. So, obviously, things are going to be cheaper. This does not mean a sacrifice in quality. Materials cost less, the workers are payed less which in the long run, results in a cheaper car. In japan, materials cost more and better payed workers = a more expensive car.

Try this: Go to a hyundai dealer and test drive an elantra. You'll be surprised, such as i was when i did. I use to think hyundai was crap due to reputation of the excel. but i surprised myself, and bought it. so then you can remove the blindfold off your eyes, then maybe you ll see the light; that is the elantra is a better deal

elantra00

Isellhondas.....If you believe that the civic is
such a great deal, and believe it to be a fact,
then why are you fighting so damn hard! Myself
along with many others in this forum know hyundai
has a bad reputation and are showing others that
its come a long way since the excel, is a quality
built car and a great deal. You are insecure about the civic being better then the elantra, so you are fighting to defend it, but deep down inside your mind, you know the elantra is a better deal. If you didnt, you wouldnt be arguing so hard. You would be like "whatever, you guys are stupid if you think that. im not even going to waste my time here" you would just laugh and go on. but no, you fight and fight proving my point above.

isellhondas

Hardly. Let me remind you, once again, that I am not the person who started this forum.

I have NEVER said Hyundais were crap, and, unlike others, have never resorted to name calling and personal attacks.

And, I have driven an Elantra. It was, to me, just another car. Not bad, but certainly nothing that excited me.

If you think a Hyundai is the best car on the planet for the money, great!

Many others would disagree with you as the total sales figures would indicate.

And, as I've said before, five years from now, I may feel differently.

Guess this is hard for you guys to understand.

shabazz

We were considering the Civic as well. The first major difference is that the Civic cannot be had in a wagon, which the Elantra Wagon costs only slightly more than the Sedan, yet still less than the Civic. I consider "utility" in a small car to be a major factor, yet so many small cars these days aren't even offered in hatchback (yes I know Civic is, but it gives up two doors for that), which really limits their overal capability.
In researching several "possibles", I must admit I was very "high" on the Honda Civic in the beginning--even considering it's "minimalist horsepower", and non-wagon offering. In perusing other conference boards like this one, as well as reading every report I could find on the various cars, including repair statistics, I concluded that in terms of REAL reliability, little difference exists between the Honda and the Hyundai. The single most major "complaint" about both were the automatic transmission-equipped models.
Then there is the FACT that civics aren't REALLY made in Japan, they're made over in Ohio--by Americans. As well as the "undertone" that Honda "quality" has been on the decline over the past few years--this also applies to Toyota Corolla (another of our "possibles"), which is built over in Fremont, CA. {don't misunderstand my feelings about American workmanship--I think they are the best in the world when given an "equal chance", I just wanted to point out that at last count, MOST "japanese cars" are acutally made here, because I've seen TOO many posts where people who had NOT done their homework kept harping about "japanese workmanship"}
As far as warranty goes, Hyundai is ahead of everyone--almost DOUBLE in many cases. That is certainly an indication of Hyundai's desire and commitment to its customers.
Options such as air conditioning are now "standard" on the Hyundai, yet still an almost thousand-dollar add-on for "the others".
Basically, after REALLY doing all the "investigation" possible, I knew the Elantra deserved a hands-on look.
Another interesting difference: I submitted requests for "quotes" online, on various cars, and the Hyundai dealership in Selma, CA called EARLY the next morning, with an outrageously low price!
They had a 2000 Hyundai Elantra Wagon GLS with 5-speed (what I wanted), a/c, pwr-everything, and "custom" wheels (must have been special ordered and never picked up--the car had all of 12 miles on it when I test drove it). The "quote" was $11,978, which as everyone here knows, is a great price.
So we headed down to take a look--my wife, like so many of the "uninitiated", really DID NOT think the Hyundai was "worth it". When we arrived at the dealership and her eyes fell upon a beautiful metallic, slate gray, Elantra wagon, her interest was peaked. Then came the test drive--140 ponies under the hood, linked to the rubber via a very slick 5-speed, resulted in the kind of acceleration one is not accustomed to in "economy cars". The E-wagon's curb weight is only slightly more than the sedan, so performance is comparable, and from my experience to date, the Elantra wagon, can FLY! That "140" on the speedo, while PROBABLY an overstatement, doesn't seem like MUCH of one.
After the test drive, my wife was convinced that Hyundai made a great car. It was suprisingly quiet--MUCH quieter than our Saturn SL-1. The acceleration was incredible. Handling (it had 195/60R14 Michelin XG-4's on its custome rims), was tight and responsive, with good "communication" with the road. The car had NO rattles, squeaks, shakes, jiggling noises whatsoever!
We bought it--considering that with the E-wagon we got 32 cu ft of cargo capacity compared to an average of about 12 for most sedans, great "power", fuel economy--VALUE. At our first fill-up some 400.1 miles AFTER we bought it and the dealer filled the tank, it took 11.681 gal for a resultant fuel economy of 34.25mpg.
I have subsequently recorded 30.43, and the latest (we've owned the car two weeks and filled it up 3 times, even though my wife commutes 40 miles each way to work and the car has just over 1200 miles on it. The last mileage was down to a hair over 29mpg thanks to more agressive driving as we "ring out" the car's performance envelope (which is hard NOT to do in a car that WANTS to go fast as this one does)!
I KNOW we made the best choice based upon ALL available information, as well as OUR hands-on experience with the car. For anyone wondering if Hyundai is a good value, I recommend a trip to the dealership... do your homework with an OBJECTIVE "eye", then test drive the car...you'll be a "convert" just like the rest of us.
For anyone living close to central California, I HIGHLY recommend you jump on Hwy-99 to Selma Auto Mall in Selma (about 20 miles south of Fresno--you know, Anne Heche's new "stomping grounds"). That dealership gave us the "red-carpet treatment" even though we were "only" buying an UNDER $12K car.

isellhondas

Selma has an Auto Mall???

And they sell Hyundais????

Wow!

I'll admit, it's probably been fifteen years since I've been through Selma, but still find that hard to believe!!!

NOT the Selma I remember!

elantra00

If you dont plan on selling the hyundai, and keeping it till its dead, then which is the wiser investment here? who gives a crap about resale when you are going to keep it till the end. and with the warranty, major problems will be covered, so its a wise investment. i plan on keeping this car as my main car for 4 years, then buying a new car and keeping the hyundsai as my daily driver and then have the new car as my going out car.

bri70

Wait for the 2001 model instead. Someone posted a link in the Elantra forum and it looked really nice. It reminded me of a Saab. The engine is more powerful, quieter, overall refinement is improved.

Nice!

Oh, I drove down to Florida from NYC and had a great time teasing Hondas. I'm sorry but those Civics just do not have the engine to compare to the Elantra. I did not come across an SI but the Elantra simply had the HP to leave the others behind convincingly. Even the 4 cylinder Accords were looking at my backside.

bri70

Today my brother-in-law drove his mother's 98 Honda Civic LX to get inspected. I got a good hour in the vehicle. My brother in law loves Honda's and is always praising them. He is not a fan of Hyundai. He invited me to see how "a real car drives."

Pluses:
-Auto trans is far superior. The shifts were better than my Elantra's.
-The brakes were a little better than the Elantras.

Other than that, I really do not see what the big deal is. In fact, I came away even more convinced that the Elantra is a better buy.

Minuses:
- I was surprised at the noise level in the car. I believe it is noisier than the Elantra.
- The seats while comfortable at first were starting to bother me at the end of the hour. I drove 4 hours without any problem in the Hyundai. The Civics driver seat have fewer adjustments.
-The interior is just as ugly as the Hyundai.
-The Hyundai has better ergonomics for the AC.
-The suspension was a toss up between the two.
-Most importantly the Honda accelerated adequately but was inferior to the Elantra.

This in a car that cost nearly 3 grand more with fewer amenities. My in law concedes all of these points. Still he likes the Civic and dislikes the Elantra.

shabazz

Way back in 1970--for those of use who remember it firsthand, the "resale value" of Cadillacs, Buicks, Lincolns...the entire retinue of large, powerful, luxuries "rides" was assured. After all, these were the "top of the line" as EVERY coniving salesman boasted.
Then along about 1973 we had a little tiff with OPEC... and virtually OVERNIGHT, the "resale value" of large, gas-hungry luxury cars PLUMMETED!
People couldn't GIVE them away, because the cost just to put gas in them was "outrageous". I know...by today's standard the price of gas "back then" was a steal.
But the point is; WHAT CHANGED ABOUT THE CARS THEMSELVES? NOTHING, that's what, but "perception" changed, and so with it went "resale" value.
Also back in "those days", MOST people viewed "japanese ANYTHING" with derision, but THEY were by chance "positioned" at the "low-end" of the U.S. automarket with small, fuel-efficient cars that became overnight sensations--even though a year before, you couldn't GIVE THEM away!
Anybody ELSE see a pattern here?
Unfortunately, "cultural memory" is about as long as a 30 second sound-byte, so here we are, 27 years later, our roads CROWDED by gas-guzzling SUVs (that get the same mileage the old "gas-hogs" of the late sixties). With each year we see, bigger engines, bigger bodies, bigger tires, bigger gas-appetite...bigger, bigger, BIGGER, and these SUVs carry PREMIUM sticker prices! The small, fuel-effcient, PRACTICAL car is once again sneered at...with the typically American 'tude, that the only reason to have one is if you can't "afford" a gigantic road-hog... even the sudden jump in prices a few months back have not served as a "wake-up" call to many.
So, for all you out there who think you "have" to drive a small car, but secretly yearn to "tool around" in a huge SUV...wait a bit longer...when the price of gas gets up around $2.50/gal you'll be able to snap one up for mere PENNIES on the dollar--then you get to put the "big-head hundred" in the tank at each fill-up.
For all "we suckers" who own Hyundai's, we'll see the "resale value" of OUR cars skyrocket...all based on the REAL marketing force of "perception".

liufei

Whats the basis of this comparison? Last time I checked, the Accent is still a subcompact, while the Civic is a compact car.

elantra00

The cars are in a whole different league. you compare the accent to the chevy metro or suzuki swift, Kia Sephia. Which, by the way, is better then all these. The accent is top in the subcompact class, best deal and bang for your buck.

isellhondas

Shabazz...you lost me after your second paragraph, but...that's O.K.

Sounds like you bought the car you liked the best and that's all that matters.

And, you misunderstood my "Selma" comments.

Back in the late seventies, I lived in the Bay Area and spent a lot of time with my job driving up and down Hwy 99. At that time, Selma was a VERY small, sleepy farming town.

Just hard for me to realize how that valley has EXPLODED in recent years! An Auto Mall? sure, I believe it.

I also can't believe it when I hear of people commuting from Modesto to San Francisco on a daily basis...WOW!!

nikecar

<336</A>> Um maybe because the Accords were just driving while you did a flyby? wait at a light for someone to actually acknowledge you are racing, instead of passing a family in an accord thinking they got blown behind.

bri70

A couple were trying. I do not know how the Elantra would fare against a 4cylinder Accord at a stoplight. But one can tell when a car is trying to catch up to you in a highway. You go by them. They accelerate and close the gap. You go a little faster. They accelerate more to close the gap. So on.

liufei

bri70:
I wont be surprised if your Elantra beat a 4-banger Accord on a stoplight race, since Elantra has faster 0-60 times and not to mention the possibility there's more than just the driver in the Accord (extra weight).
However, I hope you don't try it against a V6 Accord.

elantra00:
How about KIA Rio? They looks nice and in the same price range with the Accent. If the ECHO is priced head to head with the Accent, maybe it can attracts more buyer.
To me personally, the Accent pricing really doesnt make sense. Why would you buy one if you can get an Elantra for about 1K more, and get a bigger car and more features ? If you finance, i doubt its more than an additional $25 for the monthly payment.

bri70

Re:"However, I hope you don't try it against a V6
Accord. "

I know its limitations!

Saying that get ready for some raised eyebrows. My in-law Al has an 96 Impala SS. He likes to drive fast. Driving back from Florida he was doing the speed limit in the Elantra when two Bimmers blew by us at speeds over 85mph. On his theory that the police are going to ticket the lead car speeding, we followed. Through half of Georgia and into South Carolina we tailed a BMW 328i and 740. The 328 was driven by a young woman, the 740 by an older couple (parents maybe?). They were together.

Every so often they would speed up to 100 and attempt to leave us way behind. We would simply take longer to catch up but catch up we did. Near the end we pushed the Elantra till it overtook the 328. Then it sounded like the woman floored the pedal and the 328 started pulling even. We floored the Elantra. The Bimmer continued to pull even and oh so slowly pulled away from us. I'm not saying that the Elantra is just as fast as a BMW 328,(I'm not crazy) but I do think she held her own. The 328 had to work. Not bad for a 13K car. While Al will never admit to liking a Hyundai; he was surprised.

BTW, I know this may sound reckless but I95 was empty at 2am with few curves. I would be the first one to tell him to stop. It also cut alot of time off our travel.

shabazz

Sorry to have gone off on a "rant", but for some reason I can't seem to say everything I "have to say" in a few terse paragraphs. I'm sure I'll never make it as a newspaper reporter.
I HOPE that what my "article" conveyed was more my feeling that we, as consumers, should do our "homework", and always be willing to examine everything rather than just take a position because "that's the way we've always done things"..or something like that.
The truth is, I would have been just as likely to buy a Civic, or one of the other cars on my "short list", such as the Corolla, Saturn SL-1, or Ford Focus, had all the various "factors" fallen into place.
As with "most" car buys, there are always intangibles that seem to "direct" us toward our "destiny" regardless of what we "intend" when we walk out the door that day.
My "position" is not related to any particular car, so much as it reflects the antithesis of "rigid", "brand-loyalty" thinking. While this is certainly GREAT for established brands, such thinking actually works against the consumer at large, and were it not for external, unpredicted forces, many car brands that are today "most popular" wouldn't even be around.
Case in point is the "market niche" carved out by Toyota, then Honda, et al in the post-oil embargo days of the mid to late seventies. In the late sixties, Toyota's cars were literally laughed out of the country, but unforeseen events combined with their having a product ideally suited for the "new" consumer demand flung wide the door for them and all the other Japanese car-makers.
Nobody STARTED buying Japanese cars based on "quality" and "durability"--these were things that became important later.
As all of you who have studied Marketing know, most new products enter the market at or near the "bottom" in terms of price--offering an attractive "value" to the consumer. As the product "niche" is developed, the product tends to move "upscale", increasing in both "options", opulence, and price, leaving "room" at the entry point for "new" brands.
For example: had Yugo entered the U.S. market with a fairly "decent" car; one that left people feeling they had received "value" for their money, Yugo would by now be enjoying a thriving customer base.
Hyundai is doing the things a company MUST do in order to survive and thrive in a highly competitive market--using their lower labor costs, combined with purchase incentives for the consumer to "win over" new buyers. Using "zero sum" thinking, Hyundai MUST "steal" buyers from everyone else in order to be successful, and I have every confidence that their marketeers, accountants, and analysts understand that it's not enough to just offer a CHEAPER car, or even a longer, more comprehensive warranty. They know that unless the cars they sell PROVIDE a reasonable level of "reliability", they could very well "go broke" supporting extra-long warranties--esp the kind that transfer to the next purchaser. "Statistically" the "average" time a car is "kept" is around 29 months, so obviously, MOST people won't even keep ANY car long enough to run out the warranty--in terms of time anyway, but "brand loyalty" is delivered on the strength of those who DO keep their cars until "the wheels fall off". This is the foundation of WHY both Toyota and Honda presently enjoy a tremendous "reputation" for long-term reliability, and is what is responsible for "new buyers" deciding to buy them. In order for Hyundai to achieve this in "today's market" (which is even MORE competitive than it was 25 years ago), they must be willing and ABLE to support their product in a way that draws people to purchase, and repurchase.
Also, Hyundai NOW has competition from it's own country... and runs the risk of not only failing to successfully "challenge" Japanese dominance of the compact-mid-size car market, but worse (from a "nationalistic pride" standpoint), of becoming an "also ran" to companies like Daewoo and Kia, both of which are clearly pushing HARD for THEIR share of the "pie".
Realistically, the negative comments voiced about Hyundai products of the past are from a minority of purchasers, because had there been "wholesale" disatisfaction, Hyundai would have gone the way of Yugo, as well as other truly "substandard" car-builders. Anybody remember Triumph? Talk about "quality problems"...that's an understatement for them. We're talking doors that wouldn't open within minutes of driving off the lot!
I've never owned a Hyundai before now--in fact I USED be a die-hard, "buy American" man, until I finally realized that MULTINATIONAL corporations have absolutely NO "loyalty" to their "home nation"--they "go where manufacturing costs are most advantageous", and so I too should approach my car-buying decisions from a more analytical, BUSINESS-like standpoint, rather than from an emotionally-charged, "loyalty" position. However, I have known quite a number of people who owned Hyundai cars over the years, and I have had the opportunity to drive and "compare" them. My OWN observations were most positive, and of the people I've personally known who owned them, complaints were few indeed.
This is why I "advise" others to do as I have done... don't just research what "you're interested in", but cast your net wide and look at EVERYTHING. It only takes a few moments to visit message boards dedicated to other brands, such as Honda, etc. and find people delivering negative comments on THOSE cars. I would suggest that the most "valid" statistics would be found in checking out the "maintenance and repair" record for various cars over the years.
Considering the ENORMOUS variation in "driving styles" of millions of consumers, the various auto-makers have been doing an outstanding "job" across the board. Personally, in 25 years of buying cars, both foreign and "domestic", I've never had a "lemon". Some would trumpet, "You're just lucky", but I suspect that my approach to understanding and operating "my" cars plays a superior role. I drive my cars "as if I have to pay for them", and from WATCHING the way all too many people "use" THEIR cars, I'm not surprised that so many people have "problems".
It's comical to observe the way people will engage in full-power accelerations from a stop-light, "hammer down" all the way to the NEXT stop-light, where upon they "stand on" the brakes. This they repeat, mile after mile, day after day, and then actually blame the CAR for worn brake pads/linings, warped rotors, premature shock and strut replacement, and automatic transmission shift problems. I see people slam their car in "park", leap out without applying the parking brake, and watch the car "lunge" against the "parking gear"... later they blame the CAR for being difficult to get out of park, and "over time" developing linkage and shifting problems.
How many times I've heard complaints levied against "turbo" cars for premature turbo failure, engine main bearing failure, etc. simply because ONE, the operator didn't bother to read the owner's manual where it told them to let the engine idle through a "cool down" period after high-speed operation, or TWO, take the time to understand WHY this was needed. Those of us who have operated jet engines "understand" what's happening to OIL when you force-feed it against a bearing that is spinning over 20,000rpm (much more in tiny car turbos), yet all to many people blame the CAR when THEIR turbo bearings "burn-up", or the engine suffers major damage due to oil starvation to its bearings.
The fact is, car-makers are forced to TRY and make cars that are as nearly "bulletproof" as possible considering the way they might be operated, and those who take the time to understand this piece of machinery, and to operated it with "res
Sorry to have gone off on a "rant", but for some reason I can't seem to say everything I "have to say" in a few terse paragraphs. I'm sure I'll never make it as a newspaper reporter.
I HOPE that what my "article" conveyed was more my feeling that we, as consumers, should do our "homework", and always be willing to examine everything rather than just take a position because "that's the way we've always done things"..or something like that.
The truth is, I woultraint", discover THEIR cars are wonderfully "reliable", "durable", and of "value".
In terms of REAL improvements over the years, COMPACT cars head the list. The "economy car" of today is a far cry from the REAL "tin cans" of 20 years ago, and speaking as someone who HAS owned large, luxury cars, they aren't nearly as "inferior" as many seem to "believe". In my "opinion", the "economy cars" available now, offer SO much "value" for the money--along with virtually the SAME "luxury features", that it's hard to find an "excuse" to pay 2-3 times more for something else...other than, "that's just what I want"...which is fine for those who have the "luxury" of being able convince themselves that it's "worth" spending 2-3 times more for a "car" that will last not ONE SECOND longer, nor provide essential, "utility" one whit "better".
If COST had anything to do with reliability and longevity, then a $30K car should have NO problems, complaints, recalls, or unscheduled maintenance, and should provide RELIABLE, unbroken, "like new" service for at least 30 years--withOUT a major overhaul or rebuild. Hell, a $50K "car" should last damn-near a LIFETIME...but they don't, do they...they don't "last" any longer than will say, a Hyundai Accent, or a Honda Civiv DX.
Hopefully, the thrust of my "thinking" comes across as being someone who takes the postion of not being one "of the herd" who does as others simply because it is expected, or because my choice in cars is somehow a reflection of the person I am...but you KNOW, as do I, that a whole LOT of people think precisely that, even and especially people who have to "work for a living", and would better serve their own long-term interests by buying the least expensive car they can--while getting the most VALUE, and putting all the money they would have spent on a more expensive car into long-term savings.
We--Americans, see our cars as "status symbols"; a self-styled view that harkens back to the early part of the 20th century when automobiles truly were "luxuries" to the average person. Times have changed though...today, a car is a neccessity, if you don't have a "decent" car, it's hard to even begin to "get ahead". Most people drive their cars in a never-ending, "daily commute" of one sort or another, and regardless of external efforts, MOST cars on our highways are carrying exactly ONE person--especially on those daily commutes. To me, it goes beyond the ludicrous for people to squander $30K or more on a vehicle that will get half the economy, while spending over 90% of its time doing the SAME thing the $10K "econocar" will be doing.
Since BOTH the Hyundai Elantra and the Honda Civic "fit" within my personal "framework" of "value" and "utility", I have no real "preference" either way--that is to say, I have no "brand loyalty". I'm just glad that at this particular time where gigantic, oversized, gas-hogs have ONCE-AGAIN become popular, that there exists companies who are still building cars that DELIVER REAL VALUE. Though I do "like" the Hyundai E-wagon because it delivers an even greater "value" than the Civic which cannot be had in a wagon. I think "miniwagons" are an almost "perfect" blend of size, space usage, economy, and overall utility.

shabazz

Your comment on "subcompact" versus "compact" opens and interesting question. Just WHAT "defines" the difference, especially considering how all the so-called "compact" cars are getting "bigger" all the time.
I checked Edmunds listing of the Civic LX SDN, the Accent SDN, and the Elantra SDN...
Based JUST on Edmunds' rating, the Civic is classed as a SUBCOMPACT.
The Accent and Elantra are both classed as COMPACT.
It gets better:
In external dimensions the Civic is a tad longer than the Elantra SDN, almost 10 inches longer than the Accent, with a wheelbase almost 3 inches longer than Elantra, and a whopping seven Plus inches longer than Accent. From there the differences meld into nothingness.
In terms of INTERIOR size the Civic has just under an inch MORE headroom than the Accent, OVER an inch more than the Elantra SDN (the E-wagon has more), yet the same legroom as the Accent and less than the Elantra. Interior width seems almost equal to Accent, and less than Elantra. Luggage capacity across the board is virtually too close to matter.
In terms of weight, the Civic falls right between the Accent and Elantra: Accent; 2240lb. Civic: 2410 lb. Elantra; 2626lb.
In terms of engine power, the Civic is a TAD better than the Accent, but well below the Elantra. (The Civic LX was used for comparison, and a more powerful engine IS available on higher COST versions)
Accent: 1.5L 92HP/97lb/ftTQ
Civic LX: 1.6L 106HP/103lb/ftTQ
Elantra: 2.0L DOHC 140HP/133lb/ftTQ
Clearly in THIS iteration the Civic is much closer to the Accent in terms of "power".
Horsepower to weight ratio (rounded):
Accent: 24 lb/horse
Civic: 23 lb/horse
Elantra: 19 lb/horse
(The Elantra is listed in Edmunds at 8.5 sec 0-60, and from the performance of my E-wagon, which is only slightly heavier, I find it credible--though I have not done a serious timed test)
In terms of PRICE, the Civic "wins" hands down...
Accent: MSRP $ 9,699
Elantra: MSRP $11,799
Civic LX: MSRP $14,930
(I used the LX model Civic for comparison because it is the LEAST well-equipped model that "equals" the Elantra in terms of ammenities, as well as being able to get A/C as an additional option)
In summary, externally--as everyone can readily observe, the cars are all nearly the same size. Internally they are even closer to being the same size. In terms of "power", the Civic LX is "closer" to the Accent, and in terms of price, the Civic LX is far more "expensive" to acquire (special "deals" not withstanding).
Wherever the dividing line between "subcompact" and "compact" was once drawn, clearly it has become "academic" in real terms.
This is an "interesting" follow-up to an "article" I posted over in the Hyundai Elantra Wagon section where I gave the statistical difference between the E-wagon and the Dodge Durango (of all things), illustrating that there is ONLY 3% "more" interior cabin space in the Durango, which incidentally has LESS front legroom. In THAT comparison, the Durango ONLY has 19 cu/ft more "cargo" capacity than the E-wagon (59% more), while the E-wagon delivers 69% more mpg AVERAGE (72% hwy).
Oh, in terms of fuel economy, the Accent and the Civic LX are basically "tied", with the Elantra coming in only 3-4 mpg lower.
I know Honda offers the HX model which is rated at 43mpg, but this model does NOT offer factory A/C as an option and so is not a "useful" comparison, since for MOST of the United States, air conditioning is, or should be "standard" (which it is on both Hyundai).
These results only serve to illustrate my "point" about the PRACTICAL differences between various cars without SUBJECTIVE "opinions".
For a "daily commuter" that will see 90% of it's time just "busting the highway", while carrying ONE person, the ACCENT Sedan is a VERY nice choice, followed by the slightly heavier, TINY bit larger, but MUCH more powerful Elantra, with the Civic coming in third simply because of it's substantially higher price while offering nothing of MEASURABLE "value" to justify it.
Using BASE price for comparison; for the DIFFERENCE in the acquisition cost of the Civic LX versus the Accent, one could buy almost 3000 gallons of gasoline (at $1.75/gal), or enough gas to drive 108,000 miles based on EPA mileage figures. If you anticipated driving 20,000 miles a year, it means you could buy and DRIVE the Accent for over FIVE years for just what it would cost to buy the Civic LX.
For the difference in cost between the Civic LX and the Elantra you could "afford" to drive almost 60,000 miles ($1.75/gal), or THREE years.
If you factor in the quite significant difference in WARRANTIES offered between the two brands, even if you "anticipate" a lower reliability for the Hyundai, IT will be FAR more likely to be "covered" for ANY repair--certainly out to 100,000 miles or more on the powertrain. The "odds" are that MOST people will drive EITHER car for a good five years before anything "breaks", but say you "plan" for the Hyundai to suffer a catostrophic breakdown as soon as IT comes out from under warranty, if you put the DIFFERENCE in acquisition cost between the Civic LX and either the Accent or Elantra "in the bank", five years down the road you'd have MORE than enough money "on-hand" to cover the most major of all potential repairs or replacements, or, you would have a SUBSTANTIAL downpayment on a brand NEW Hyundai (at today's dollars)!
THIS is why it's hard to "choose" the Honda Civic over the Elantra, or especially over the Accent. Keeping in mind that MOST of us, drive MOST of our "miles" in "commuting"--in essence, we are simply "using up" our cars, whether they be $50K luxury "rides", or "basic" $10K "econoboxes".
Whatever amount MORE we are willing to pay for a "larger" car, or a more "opulent" car, is based soley on SUBJECTIVE "beliefs", or SELF-induced "expectations", rather than any practical difference.

justin

Got a 2000 5 speed Elantra brand new last Friday - under $10k, US dollars. No options except for mats and mudflaps. I got the slate gray color. For a $10k car, I think it drives and looks just fine. For a $10k car, the chrome on the outside is a nice touch... The warranty is great....and the dealer was great too. Why do people think that Hondas and Toyotas don't break down??? I had a 97 Civic - in the year and a half that I kept the car, it was in the shop for a total of 20 or so days....

The Elantra is indeed a better value. Period. The warranty is a great selling point, because I know from experience that a Civic can and will need work done, and it is good to know that I won't have to pay for it if the Elantra needs work. The engine is a little rougher than the Civic, but it also is a lot more "pep' in my opinion. The Civic is a nice car - but not any BETTER than the Elantra. And the fact that the Hyundai was so inexpensive just sealed the deal. I hope I have good luck with the car - if it goes in the shop once in awhile, then what can I say? It is a $10k car......I don't expect it to be perfect...:)

Are their any Elantra websites that owners can post their advice and solutions to problems on?

shabazz

Justin, you hit the nail right smack dab on the head!
You'll find--should you decide to use it, that the Elantra has a lot more "pep" than a whole bunch of pricier cars, while retaining the ability to deliver exceptionally fine fuel economy...that is if you can resist the temptation to drive it as fast as it "wants to go".

nikecar

A Daewoo Leganza or Hyundai Elantra? (or Sonata if you wish)

liufei

I basically judge it by the dimension of the car (length,width,weight). If we want to compare an Accent to a Civic, the Civic hatchback will probably fit nicely against an Accent. Thats one thing about Civic, there's many different kind of trim level available to fit someone needs.
Since both Civic and Elantra get redesigned for 2001, it will interesting to compare these two new car in a few months or so.

Regarding Leganze vs Elantra/Sonata. The Leganza main competitor is the Sonata, while Elantra competes with the Daewoo Nubira. I don't have any first hand experience about the two, but just based from the styling, I will pick the Sonata (Daewoo's grill styling is just ugly imo), plus you get the great warranty that Hyundai offers.

drimple

If you look in the Leganza vs. other midsize cars topic, I did a comparison of the Leganza, Accord, Camry and Sonata. The results were a tie between the Camry and Sonata, with the Accord in third and the Leganza in fourth.

shabazz

As far as "who would win" between the Leganza and Elantra, the Elantra by far.
The base, and ONLY engine offered in the vastly overpriced Leganza is a wimpy 2.2L producing 131HP/148TQ, to motivate 3,157lb. (curb wt.) of car around.
The LISTED 0-60 time is 10.8 seconds.
In contrast, the Elantra's 2.0L engine is pumping out 140hp/133tq, pushing 2,626 lb., and is listed to go "0-60" in 8.5 seconds--a full 2.3 seconds FASTER than the Leganza.
In "fairness" (not that anyone else is ever "fair"), the Leganza is a MIDsize, as is the Sonata, but that STILL does not "justify it being saddled with a puny engine--especially for the price they think it should bring.
The Sonata has TWO engine choices. The base: 2.4L DOHC 149hp/156tq tugging "only" 3,072 lb. of car. Even though no 0-60 time was listed, I think it's obvious which car would "win" in a stoplight race. If it's NOT obvious, perhaps the horsepower-to-weight ratio will help.
Leganza: 24 pounds/horse
Sonata: 20.6 pounds/horse
Elantra: 18.75 pounds/horse
Of course, Hyundai offers a more powerful engine for the Sonata: 2.5L DOHC 24V V-6 170hp/166tq, curb wt. 3,069 pounds, or 18 pounds/horse.
But here is why the Leganza REALLY "loses"--other than just mediocre performance...PRICE.
The Leganza CDX has a BASE MSRP of $18,660
The Sonata GL BASE MSRP is $14,999
Sonata GLS BASE MSRP $16,999--almost $2,000 LESS for a much better car, with the "big" engine, even though the Sonata with the "little" engine is still a better performer than the Leganza.
Also, the Hyundai warranty far exceeds Daewoo.
Even though the Elantra really doesn't "fit" in a comparison since it's a compact while the other two are mid-size, from a performance standpoint, the Elantra, without doubt is the faster car.

elantra00

i have just under 5,000 miles on my elantra right now. not one problem yet. no recalls....nothing. obviously, hyundai is back and kicking honda in the [non-permissible content removed] showing their cars are just as good as hondas. lets not forget about the blown head gasket problem in the late model civics and the transmission problem in the 6 cyclinder accord. with the manual trans. elantra, no problems to report from anyone.

justin

I find that I always have to remind people that Hondas are NOT the reliable cars that everyone assumes they are. Civics especially.....can anyone say - overpriced? Underpowered? I'll take my motorcycle engine in an actual motorcycle, not a car, thank you!

isellhondas

Head gasket problems ? sorry...no..only in your mind!

Transmission problems...limited to a few V-6's. A vendor supplied part caused a clunk in reverse...problem long solved!

Enjoy your Hyundai!

shabazz

There you go again--telling the CUSTOMER he/she is wrong, and that any malfunctions or problems with the mighty "hundercar" MUST be in their head.
In one sentence YOU have validated what "everyone" says about "car salesmen".

isellhondas

One more time...I am not the person who started this topic!

Late model Civics do NOT have a head gasket problem!! I hate it when someone spouts off about something and they are totally wrong!

And, the poster was hardly a CUSTOMER as you stated. He was simply a poster trying to plead his case for Hyundais while dispensing inaccurate information about Civics.

elantra00

someone told me in the honda forum above blowing 2 head gaskets on his honda under 35k miles. it was a 96. other people said they ve blown them as well, no years mentioned. this is what ive heard. this was bout 6 months ago when i heard this, so dont tell me you dont see it in there, cause it was a long time ago.

drimple

This is uncalled for and I hope that your last couple of posts get scribbled. isellhondas is just trying to present the other side of the arguement since this is a Civic vs. Elantra conference.

There is no need for these personal attacks. It is childish, uncalled for, and undermines your whole arguement about which car is better.

bri70

I second drimple's sentiment. Hey, I think the Civic is overpriced but Isell has every right to defend it.

justin

about the head gasket problems. Like I said, my 97 Civic HX coupe had not only that problem, but numerous others. All related to fit and finish and engine issues. Oil leaks.....smoke.....one cylinder "froze" up.....

The ride itself was, for economy car, nice. But, with a Honda, you don't pay "economy" car prices....so you have to decide what you want. Of course ISELL has the right to defend the Civic. But in reality, a value conscious consumer is going to realize that Honda is not the benchmark anymore. And outside of that "myth" of honda reliability, there is NOTHING about the Civic that is better than the Elantra.

george00

As you know, I have strongly disputed statements by isellhondas regarding the comparative value of Civic and Elantra. Like most others, I too have had bad experiences with car salesmen - and, to be sure, salesmen of appliances, audio equipment, etc. But I do not know isellhondas personally and have no reason to attack him personally. Moreover, as a retired lawyer I feel constrained to mention that personal attacks combined with threats, or language which might be construed as a threat, might possibly violate federal criminal law. Internet law is unsettled and evolving, so I'm not sure about this, but I would be very careful about such attacks on a public website like this one. In fact, I suspect elntra00 did not mean a threat but was just being carried away with the argument. If I'm right, it might be a good idea for elantra00 to make it clear that no threat was intended.

isellhondas

I made a big mistake by rising to Elantra's bait once again after I said I was done with him.

It sounds like I am being stalked here and quite franklly, I hope the hosts of this conference take note and delete the post.

Never, in my three years here have I been threatned personally.

I have disagreed with people and tried to state opposing opinions.

Posting my personal phone number I have to believe violates everything these forums were intended for and I thank those who jumped to my defense.

L8_Apex

isell...

isellhondas

That left me with a VERY bad feeling. I think it's probably time for me to leave these forums forever.

I am one of the "originals" and have enjoyed the banter over the years. When friendly banter turns to personal threats it's probably time to leave.

elantra00

you are all right, i did go a bit overboard. I did get carried away in this argument. i was really pissed last night over personal reasons and this was letting off steam in a foul matter.

It just really pisses me off to see whats going on in here. forget the elantra just for a minute and lets talk about honda, not just the civic but honda in general. It sickens me to see how many people have them out there. Yes, they are reliable but so overpriced. Isell knows this to be true. I cant believe a blindfold has been pulled over so many peoples eyes and they overpay so much. Honda should drop their prices so they can actually compete with cars like the elantra, saturn SL and neon and so forth. Its just rediculious. a economy car priced around a mid size sedan.

Anyway....

Well, this is my last post. i wont be coming back to this forum anymore. its the same [non-permissible content removed] back and forth between the cars and its just stupid now. You all have fun arguing about which car is better. I sick of proving the same point over and over again.

shabazz

At the risk of trying to inject levity into an already tense situation, why don't we ALL pause for a moment, sit back, take a deep breath, remember why we are "happy" with the choices we've made (not to mention the opportunity to make them), and stop "taking" things "personally"--on BOTH sides of the "aisle".
For starters, let us NOT start making "assumptions"...like the ALL TOO "PC" assumption that any form of "heated debate" constitutes a personal attack (since NONE of us know one another personally, a "personal attack" is ABSOLUTELY IMPOSSIBLE).
For those of you who STILL don't "believe" that, let me tell you the story of my first day in basic training (yes, the United States Army). I can still remember the Drill Seargents making statements like, "whoever did 'such & such', your Momma is a 'so & so". Now, being an intelligent person, I had absolutely NO doubt that the Drill Sgt, DID NOT actually "know my mamma", just as I "understood" that no matter WHAT kind of comment he made about "someone's mamma", in REALITY, he could not POSSIBLY be speaking LITERALLY! However....I could hear and see "others" in the formation becoming visibly and audibly "agitated" at his supposedly slanderous comments--CLEARLY they had a very difficult time separating REALITY from mere "games-playing". Clearly they CHOSE to "take" (or did so through sheer ignorance), the Drill Sgt's comments in a LITERAL context, without regard for the OBVIOUS FACT that the Drill Sgt couldn't possibly "know"their mothers (or whomever), but was in fact using such an OBVIOUS "ploy" precisely to get a "rise" out of a percentage of the formation.
Forums USED to be a place where people could, and DID post the most scathing commentaries--using FACTS, slander, or a combination of both to make their "point"... and it certainly made for interesting and entertaining reading. Comments, such as, "you wouldn't say that to my face!" or "I'd like to kick your [non-permissible content removed]!"...et al, were considered part of the natural "macho" banter--and not so macho banter, since women were known to throw down the gauntlet as well. Unfortunately, the "literalists" appeared, or should I say, the "politically correct literalists" appeared, and seem to be slowly but inexorably creeping throughout the entire message-board/forum universe. These are the sort of people who--when it SUITS them, take everything literally, and "complain" that any and all comments with which they do not agree, amount to "personal attacks", or "hate speech". These people "don't get" humor, or satire, and they CHOSE to interpret (or do so from ignorance), select comments as being the representation of "hate", rather than simple "agressive discourse". LAWYERS of course, KNOW this, because they learn it in school. Lawyers (at least the good ones), are MASTERS of selective interpretation depending on which side of the aisle they are on...and so when one CHOSES to interject "inciteful" comments into the "mix", it's almost guaranteed to stifle further comment...but then, isn't that the REAL point of such interjections?
In any case, the topic here WAS about Hyundai Elantra versus Honda Civic--whatever "versus" means, since clearly (according to the resident "lawyer"), it does NOT mean "argument"..even though that is PRECISELY what Lawyers deliver in "defense" of THEIR client/position... but for "literalists", "argument" is "bad".... argument is "evil"--it's "hate speech"... filled with "venom"...which of course IS NOT true (if it IS, then why haven't we "outlawed" all "argument" that takes place in courtrooms?).
If someone on here wants to write that I'm stupid and my momma's a whore, because I bought a Hyundai, so WHAT? Unless I CHOOSE to be a "PC literalist", I KNOW that person can't possibly KNOW whether or not I'm "stupid", or whether or not my "momma is a whore", and in fact, doesn't even know me beyond the words on a printed page. People who DO take such comments literally, are people with very fragile "ego-systems".
If someone writes that they wish they could "find me and kill me" because my "views" are just so upsetting to them they can't stand it... does that REALLY MEAN they are going to do so? Am I REALLY the only person on here who actually UNDERSTANDS the absolute annonymity of the internet? I mean, for all you "literalists", did YOU really sign-up using your REAL name, REAL address, REAL everything? Beyond that, do you even know how much of what you listed even APPEARS on your profile? (NO) That goes for you "lawyers" as well... do you REALLY think that type-written words on a computer screen can so easily be "traced" to a particular PERSON, or WOULD be for such petty comments as one might find on a car forum? Is the Federal government THAT "hungry" for business? Not to mention all the various "constitutional questions that come into play BEFORE you can just "say so and so said something bad". Last time I checked the "Rules of Evidence" I didn't come away with the feeling that people no longer have any rights (even though The "Reno Gang" has certainly been trying to abridge them all), or that type-written words on a computer forum--identified with a MADE-UP name, connected to a MADE-up email, automatically "indicted" anyone who happened to be somewhere near the "address" that such comments MIGHT be traced to--with significant effort I might add. The area of "internet law" IS still lacking in the area of just HOW do you PROVE JOHN DOE really SAID what YOU SAY HE SAID! That is of course, ASSUMING (for you literalists), that ANYBODY ELSE is gonna get all worked up about a few random comments in a car forum.
Whenever the "forum" gets "too full" of "pc literalists", who can't accept "argument" (because a REAL argument DEMANDS that one FIRST have a REAL, explainable, "defendable", LOGICAL (at least somewhat), position, rather than just "Because I think so"), then the "quality" of discourse is doomed to be reduced to nothing beyond the banile For example:
"I just bought my new, 2000 Elantra GLS and I LOVE it! I got a great deal, and the salesman was nice."
OR:
"I just bough my new, 2000 Civic EX, and I love IT! MY salesman was nicer, and I think I got a great deal--so I don't care what anyone else thinks!" (if they don't care, then by blurt out what they "think" to the world--certainly they "care"--they want others to "approve" of their choice)
The POINT is, once you eliminate ARGUMENT, you ELIMINATE anything INTERESTING...not to mention you also eliminate any potential for the excahnge of FACTS.
I have made several, rather lengthy posts to this forum... stating FACTUAL INFORMATION, that naturally serves to "support" those who might be "favoring" a Hyundai--which is what I THOUGHT was the whole purpose of this forum. Since nobody "challenged" me (and how can they, I AM after all, RIGHT), the only other course of action is to ignore such comments and move on to create new ones based once again on "beliefs"... which is why I personally have "poked fun" at "isellhondas" for his statements about "believing" someone--though I am WELL-AWARE that ALL "pc literalists" will CHOOSE to see that as a "personal attack" (notwithstanding the total lack of ANY form of logic in making such a construction).
Personally, I'd like to see MORE people actually LEARN to do halfway "decent" research before they actually pop out with an "opinion", but since I know it isn't going to happen, I like to make "statistical posts" where I compare OBJECTIVE, QUANTIFIABLE differences between cars...things that you can MEASURE...how interesting it is (not really), to find so FEW people "taking notice", instead content to belabor the UN-quantifiable, and the hyperbole passed on from one SUBJECTIVE person to another.
In previous posts, I HAVE made comments like, "if somebody buys that they are an idiot", which I am SURE, to you LITERALISTS, means I'm calling everyone who ever bought a Honda Civic an "idiot"... that I'm engaging in "hate speech", even though I certainly "believe" that anyone who would CHOOSE to pay $4K MORE for a car that delivers NOTHING of MEASURABLE VALUE "more", IS and "idiot", and the "record" certainly backs that up (IN MY OPINION)....the shame of it all is, that the "literalists" EXPECT everyone to "coddle" them.. to coo over them.... and NEVER, EVER make "cross-sounding" statements around them, and certainly not TOO them--God FORBID!
Now, I'm about to "check out" of this forum...like MANY others, probably for good (though for YOU "mister lawyer" I might sneak back in under an "assumed name", to deliver more scathing "hate-speech"). But one thing I want EVERYONE to take notice of... NOTE who feels a compulsion to "take issue" with what I've written here... NOTE who feels the "need" to get "mommy & daddy" (the board moderators), to DELETE this "mean ole message"... THERE you will see the "LITERALISTS" revealed--and maybe a lawyer or two (they are selective literalists).
Because in POINT OF FACT...unless "YOU ARE" one of that group of people, you understand PRECISELY what I am saying, and for those of you who ARE of that ilk, it really doesn't matter WHAT I've said, because YOU stopped "internalizing" a long time ago, and are already "worked up" over the fact that I had the audcity to deliver such a "hateful" diatribe--even though FACTUALLY speaking, there is nothing "hateful" about it--'cept to a literalist, who KNOWS what I am writing is directed TO YOU.
Maybe it's time someone created a NEW forum... one where we "sneak around" and find "literalitsts" spouting their banile, milquetoast pablum, and post their "ID's" to OUR forum and make fun of them... yeah, I know, the LAWYER will be doing his damndest to try and THINK-UP some law we are breaking--though HOW "made-up people, delivering OPINIONS can libel a "made-up person" I don't know...but give the lawyers a chance and they'll figure out a way--well, except for the ones who are on the OTHER side, they'll be on "our side"...oops, I almost started "arguing" with myself--BAD, BAD!

justin

Just coming out of a Jetta, I thought that the Hyundai topics would be less heated than the VW topics.....:)

I was wrong indeed. The Jetta topic is "cake" compared to this one!!

Makes it so that my "surfing" experience does not have to be boring, thats for sure...

george00

shabass: "Last time I checked the
"Rules of Evidence" I didn't come away with the
feeling that people no longer have any rights"

This forum has sunk to a level of ignorance which really deprives it of any further interest. The "Rules of Evidence" in any jurisdiction (shabazz does not say whether he checked the federal rules or the rules in his state) have nothing to do with rights. They are merely procedural rules which govern the presentation of evidence in a court proceeding. If you wished to know what conduct is prohibited, you would check the relevant criminal code. If you wished to try to test a provision of that code against constitutional safeguards, you would check the relevant provisions of the constitution (federal or state) and the judicial decisions interpreting them (and would find that nearly every provision of every criminal code passes that test).
As to whether someone who does something potentially illegal on the internet can be found, ask the young fellow who thought he could fix the market in a stock with impunity using the supposedly anonymous computers at his community college (at least, that's the allegation) - he made a quarter million dollars in that little caper, and it took the cops 3 days to find and arrest him.
Finally, while political speech is generally protected under the First Amendment of the federal constitution, personal attacks can give rise to civil defamation suits and, if coupled with threats (such as "I know where you live"), can be the subject of criminal proceedings. That is why I suggested that elantra00 make clear, as I believed, that he meant no threats but only spoke in the heat of argument. Of cousre no one will take the training tactics of a drill sergeant as actually making defamatory statements about someone's mother, but falsely accusing a woman of being a whore would in certain circumstances certainly be actionable.
I'm outta here.

justin

this topic get back on track? As of now, let's talk about the virtues and drawbacks of the Honda Civic and it's competitor, the Hyundai Elantra.

I, for one, as a brand new Hyundai owner, and a former 97 Civic owner, would be interested in legit feedback, advice, solutions, etc. I hope that this topic can help me out!