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Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

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  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Manual Transmission:
    I'm not sure why people make a fuss out of it. Those who need it have choices available, right? I had. I needed a second car last year, and brought home the Prelude, with 5-speed manual tranny (and a great one at that), reasonable power, and nice handling, all that is needed in a good sports coupe. It was amazing to not find a Prelude at the dealer's lot equipped with manual tranny. I had to wait. Why should this happen if there are people desperate to buy manual tranny equipped cars? There isn't enough market for manual transmission out there in America.
    Toyota and Nissan use their V6 engines extensively in Asia and Europe. This can be a good reason for them to be able to offer manual transmission equipped V6 (although rare) in the USA. It has nothing to do with resources. If Honda felt like there was a 20% market for manual tranny, they would do it. Look at the 'performance' Accords in Asia and Europe (Accord Type-R, Accord Euro-R, Torneo Euro-R), they don't come with automatic tranny (even a/c is a free option on Accord Type-R in Europe). Now, these are not V6s, but the 2157 cc/I-4 DOHC VTEC from Prelude. European Accord Type-R gets 210 HP/158 lb.-ft, the Japanese versions, Accord Euro-R and Torneo Euro-R get 220 HP/163 lb.-ft. Then, there is a AWD Accord Wagon Si-R, with DOHC version of the American Accord, 2253 cc/I-4 DOHC VTEC, eager to deliver 200 HP and 165 lb.-ft of torque. These are cars tailored to Asian and European markets. The American Accord is the largest, heaviest, and least sporty of these Accords (platform is same), and comes with a V6, designed for America, where only 15% of buyers opt for manual tranny (and most of them would be on sports cars/sedans/coupes, economy cars).
    However, something strange is happening too! Recently, I noticed that Accord Si-R and Torneo Si-R (both offered with 2.0 liter DOHC VTEC), with the arrival of their Euro-R versions, do not offer manual tranny in Japan, but get automatic w/SportShift. That's probably where the future is headed to.
    Personally, I'd like to see manumatics improve quickly, and allow to control the engine better than they do. I like the 5-speed SportShift on TL, except that it does not allow control any more on the first gear, if it did, it will be nice.

    adg44:
    Good luck.
  • why did you not go with a manumatic in the prelude. or did you go with the sh model?

    steve
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Posts: 1,308
    I once asked a Honda salesman why the V-6 is not offered with a manual. He stated it was for marketing reasons; a V-6 5-speed Accord would be faster than a Prelude, which is obviously not good for the Prelude's image. I don't know if that's the real reason, but it seems a reasonable explaination to me. Kind of a Buick Grand National-type reason not to offer one. (For those of you who don't know, the Buick Grand National was killed because it was faster than a Corvette. Can't have a Regal blowing the doors off 'Vettes, now, can we?)
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Going to ACS (that's American Chemical Society) meeting in Washington DC on August 19th, coming back on the 24th. During that time, I will drive to New Jersey to see my parent's new horse, and even drop by NYC. I have high expectations for the Taurus, the baseline Taurus engine is 155 hp, stronger than even the Accord's. Time to go to the big cities, so I'm going to try to learn how to drive "aggressively" and maybe even earn the first traffic ticket of my life. ;) When I get back, (if I get back in one piece), I will write a detailed report for sure.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    That's not in the same class as the Camry/Accord/Maxima catagory. It's a sports coupe. Like most sports coupe, the back seat is a joke. Definitly not a family car. ;)
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "Well guys, you all can stop argueing over which
    car is sporty, cause in all honesty, neither of
    them are. I just sold my 2000 EX V6 Accord Coupe
    (what a piece of junk) and purchased a 2000 VW GTI
    GLX VR6. Of course that is a manual, and that is
    sporty car. I guess that some car companies think
    that if they take a 4 door sedan and slap only two
    doors on it, they have a "sporty car." These cars
    are both wanna-be cars. The Accord needs a
    manual, and the solara is a boat. If you ask me,
    Honda and Toyota need to work together and create
    the ulitmate wanna-be sporty "

    Wow interesting theory on wanna-be sporty.... but I'm just curious - how is that different for the 2dr Jetta HB called GTI? =)

    GTI, Jetta, Golf ... are all built on the identical VWA4 platform. GTI and Golf and Jetta share the identical suspension setup, Jetta GLX and GTI GLX share the same VR6 engine. If you compare the suspension of the Accord to that of the GTI / Jetta/ Golf, I don't think the VW's have the slightest edge. Those VW's share the same boaty suspension setup, for 2000 models anyways. 2001 VW's can be upgraded to have sportys suspension, which is in essense stiffer Eibach springs. A welcome option, but will not change matters night and days. If you want to talk about sporty VW's, I'd agree the Passat / A4 / A6 (built on the same B5 platform) are sportier than the Accord, but defn not the VWA4 platform.

    Not to mention, these cars are NOT even in the same class. GTI / Jetta / Golf are compact's, Accord, Camry's are mid-sized cars. If you want to compare compact sport coupes, there's the Prelude, which is clearly a much sportier car than the GTI.

    "One more thing, in defense of the Max. It is NOT
    in the same class as the Accord or Camry, that's
    what the Altima is there for."

    We see ignorance here. The Altima is a compact as well, though a big compact. It slides in between the mainstream compacts (Civic, Corolla, Sentra...) and the mainstream mid-sized sedans (Accord, Camry, Maxima) in terms of price, size ... You may stretch it to compare with the 4 cyc Accord and Camry's if spaciousness is not a factor. But we're talking about V6's here, and Nissan's solution for V6 Accord and Camry's is the Maxima, not the Altima. That's what Nissan's marketing says, that's what all car mags compare the Maxima against ... Accord and Camry V6! The Altima is actually just marginally bigger than a Civic! The new Civic will be even roomier, and can easily have more rooms than the Altima.

    "Wait until 2002 for a new bigger Altima with a V6 to compete head tohead with the Camry and Accord."

    That's only a rumor, that is not even remotely realistic. First of all, the current VQ engine will NOT fit in the engine bay of the Altima. From the marketing perspective, if they make the Altima bigger and fit in a V6 engine, it'll compete head to head with the Maxima, and makes no sense at all.

    #17
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "I think the Honda's decision not to make the V6
    manual combo is a understandable, and probably a
    correct one. After all, look at how many people
    buy 5-spd V6 camrys are out there? Not many. The
    low production number means it doesn't enjoy the
    economy of scale, and you don't make as much money
    selling them."

    I agree completely. The % of V6-MT Camry's is probably less than 1% in NA, thus it'd be a non-profitable decision to develop the MT tranny for the V6. However, I don't think the reason Toyota has a MT tranny for its 3.0L V6 and Honda doesn't is beacause of difference in resources as you've suggested.

    I think it's mainly a historical thing. The 3.0L V6 Toyota uses in the Camry is a workhorse like I've suggested that have used for over 10 yrs now. It is used in various Toyota vehicles worldwide, and some of which see a need for a MT tranny. The MT tranny was developed before hand, and it was simply avail with the engine's used in the Camry. (and the one thing that gets me is with the MT being avail, Toyota doesn't offer it on the upper trim Solara, which is supposed to be a sporty Camry .. that's a sidenote though)

    AS per the Accord, the 3.0L V6 was specifically developed for the NA market in 94/95 when the public wanted a V6 for the Accord. Not seeing a need for MT for a NA specific engine, Honda decided it was an unsound business case to develope a MT tranny for this engine, and I agree with that. The fact Honda developed a 5sp sport-shift AT tranny for the 3.2TL and CL (same engine, bigger bore and longer stroke for more capacity) proves Honda does have the resources to develope the tranny. They just saw more demand for semi-automatic tranny in that class than a MT, and I agree with that, though I'd really LOVE to see a 6spMT for the CL.

    It is actually a similar case for the Maxima. Some might say Nissan wants to keep the sporty niche, thus offer a MT on the V6. To some extend, Nissan wants to get out of trouble being the sporty alternative in the mainstream market, as their marketing strategy shows. However, the main reason MT is offered on the Maxima is it has always been available. The VQ V6 engine is a workhorse, used in Maxima, Gloria, Cedric, Pathfinder .... and a MT has always been available. If Nissan had to invest capitals to develop a brand new MT for the VQ, they probably would choose not to do so, and would rather take the path of sportshift semi-automatic. (which is one thing they are missing on the I30). Afterall, only 5% of Maxima buyers take the MT. I mean, if Nissan is THAT SERIOUS about sportiness, they'd at least put a rear independent suspension in the Maxima, not a beam suspension. Like they suggest, it's more for 'bragging rights' sportiness.

    #17
  • adg44adg44 Posts: 385
    The Maxima is going to be a full size car, and the Altima is going to take it's place. The GTI is basically the Audi S3, except the VW version. I'd like to see an accord beat the GTI in any comparison test. Also, the Maxima's multi-link rear beam suspension is an excellent design. Some people just won't acknowledge that. Anywho, back to the topic, which honestly is redundant.
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "Nissan Japan has released information confirming the next generation of high powered multi-valve DOHC cam inline-4 engines. The new QR engines are destined to power the new Sentra SE-R and the redesigned model year 2002 Altima."

    There goes the Maxima moving full-size rumor. Altima will keep its 4cyc engine, and its compact size. Maxima will remain a V6 mid-sized sedan.

    I didn't say Accord can beat a GTI. I was responding to your "Accord coupe is a 2dr sporty-wannabe" criticism that so is the GTI (a.k.a. 2dr sporty-wannabe version of Golf/Jetta), thus a GTI is as sporty as a Jetta is, which is not sportier than the Accord at all. The VR6 engine is a gem, but Honda's 3.0L SOHC VTEC engine produces more hp. Accord V6 and GTI VR6 have similar power to weight ratio, and will have very similar acceleration performance for both being AT models. The Accord's suspension is also not as boaty as Jetta's, which is the same on the Golf. Clearly, in terms of sportiness, the GTI VR6/Jetta VR6 are in the same ballpark as the Accord.

    And the point is - why even compare the GTI to the Accord? Like I said, they belong to difference classes. If you'd like to compare compact coupes, compare the Prelude to the GTI, and the 'lude is the much sportier choice.

    Finally multi-link beam suspension - as good as it is among different variations of non-indepedent suspension, it does NOT compare to independent suspension. Nissan is the ONLY manufacturer (among japanese, korean, domestics, europeans) that does not deploy an independent suspension on their mainstream mid-sized sedan (for cost-saving reasons). Though you can argue a varied version of the beam suspension will make-do in normal driving circumstances, it is definitely against the image they try to portrait in their marketing strategies - serious sports car. Basically if you hit a mid-corner bump during hard cornering, with a non-independent suspension your tail comes out, and that is why people do not acknowledge it.

    #17
  • the altima will keep its 4cyl engine when the new body is revealed in 2002, but it will have an optional v6 and it is supposed to be the same or close to the same size as the maxima.
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    and that is a rumor I see no truth in. Why would Nissan make the Altima a similar size as the Maxima? Nissan already has the Sentra to compete against the econoboxes (Civic, Corolla, Protege, Golf... ), though it is a bit on the small side. It has the Maxima to compare against V6 Accord and Camry's, though the Maxima is a bit on the large side (bigger than Accord, Camry, Passat ... ). Thus the Altima to fill the gap between compact and full-size to compare against the 4cyc mid-sizes and upscale compacts. I see no reason why Nissan wants to make the Altima even bigger / equip it with a V6 engine to directly compete aginst its own car.

    I mean, if we are going to compare cars based on unfounded rumors, then I'd start comparing Accord V6 - 6spMT with sports suspension, sports package that includes 17" low profile rims, and a lower price than current MSRP.

    #17
  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    I do not agree that the prelude would be a better car than the accord to compare to the GTI. The GTI is a lot roomier than the prelude. Probably pretty close to the accord coupe. Again, the handling characteristics and the transmission choices tell me that Honda accord (US version) is not a very sporty car.

    In truth, I don't think that the development costs for a v6 man. combo would be that high. Honda has manual transmissions overseas that can take 200+ hp. Maybe not the torque of a V6, but Honda's competence in manual transmissions should make it a breeze.

    It would be sad if a glorified slushbox (automanual) would kill the manual.
  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    That would be the coolest car:
    "Accord V6 - 6spMT with sports suspension, sports package that includes 17" low profile rims, and a lower price than current MSRP."
  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    You don't think that the Maxima is sporty due to its rear suspension, and I don't think the Accord is sporty due to its transmission. Different views both are right! :)
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "It would be sad if a glorified slushbox(automanual) would kill the manual."

    I agree completely. Semi-automatics are gimmicks. They are not the real thing. But that's the way Honda sees the NA market, and you cannot wrong them, if you look at the % of MT Maxima / Camry / 626 sold ..... sigh =(

    "I do not agree that the prelude would be a better
    car than the accord to compare to the GTI. The GTI is a lot roomier than the prelude. Probably
    pretty close to the accord coupe. "

    Not true. In terms of roominess, the GTI fits in between the Prelude and the Accord. The Accord is quite a lot roomier than the Golf / GTI, especially if you consider the rear legroom. The reason why GTI compares to a Prelude is both are compact coupes.

    Or put it this way - which is the most appropriate VW to compare to the Prelude?? I can't name a better match than the GTI - similar price range, similar size, same class (compact), and both cars go for the same market (sporty enthusiasts willing to dish out $25k).

    I mean, too bad the Corrado has been canned =(

    #17

    amazon - I agree. Sportiness - each can have their own definition. Just don't send the mob's after me = )
  • i work at a honda-nissan dealership and i can promise you that is not a rumor but a true fact.
    the altima is going straight up against the camry and the accord v6's and 4cyl's. the maxima is going to go up against the avalon, 3series bmw, etc. it is in the works.
  • my guess, it will be discountued in the next two years because of the fact people are going with the accord ex-vl coupe instead. @ same price and you do get ALOT more as far as options.
  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    I won't. Just don't bring Ferrari into the discussion, Mkay?
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "the maxima is goingto go up against the avalon, 3series bmw, etc. it is in the works."

    Again, I'll believe it when I see it.

    First of all, Avalon is NOT in the same class as the 3series ... Avalon is in the same class of Crown Victoria, Impela .... full size sedans with heavy emphasis on comfort and safety. Boats. Tanks. Whatever you call them. 3-series on the other hand are sports compact sedans. They are in the same class as A4, IS300, argeuably S40 (half-hearted effort from Mistsubishi/Volvo) ....

    So, lets first make up you mind if you want the MAxima to go bigger and roomier, or smaller and sportier in your rumor, cos it can't be both. = )

    2nd of all, the Maxima underwent a major model revision in 2000 model, and you're saying a complete re-design is already in the works to move it away from its current class just 2 yrs into its new model?! What is the reason?? It can't be the increasing sale can it? = )

    I mean, there are rumors, and there are EDUCATED rumors.

    But let's focus on cars that are available, or verified news of near-future cars.

    #17
  • i guess i didnt realize that you sold or worked at a nissan dealership with all this knowledge you have. why cant the maxima get a redesigned body in 3 years. it took the pathfinder only 1.5 years to get one (one in 1999.5 and the other in 2001) and its not a rumor about the altima (straight from my gm, have you talked to one lately), so i would appreciate if you didnt make me out to look like i have no idea what i am talking about. oh, and why dont you go to a nissan lot and look at thier product guide on a maxima and look at page 6 and tell me that the maxima isnt in the same class as the avalon.
    maxima strenghts over the avalon:
    -more front head and leg room
    -more horses and torque
    -larger trunk
    -more standard features (gle)
    -larger, wider wheels
    -superior handling
    ****page 9 in the product guide if you still think its a rumor****
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    I didn't want to point out the obvious, so I suggested keeping the discussion to cars available today, and verified news. But since you've asked ...

    You don't have to work at a particular dealreship, or for a particular company, or even talk to the GM to realize some crystal clear business strategies. I mean, last time I showed a Toyota sales how to open the trunk from the inside of a Celica .... I guess I didn't talk to the GM neither and still knew more than the sales. Anyways - why isn't Maxima in the same class as an Avalon - I can give you the 3 big reasons:

    1/ Different classes. Mid- vs Full size. Maxima is a big mid-sized sedan, but still a mid-sized only. Avalon is a full size. In case you forgot, Toyota has a mid-sized called Camry that is in the same class as the Maxima.

    2/ Completely different market focus - in case you've missed all the Maxima commercials, it features a car sliding across the watery surface, and emphasizes on the car's sportiness, bragging rights, 222hp, 5sp MT .... it is going for the sporty sedan market. Its targeted customers belong to the working family men with preference on sportiness.

    Avalon, OTOH, is marketed as a refined, luxury, safe, comfortable BOAT! Its predominant customers are retired folks looking for a safe, reliable car that they'll never take beyond 100.

    Hint- you see car mags comparing Maxima to Accord and Camry and Passat only, never the Avalon ...

    3/ Do I still need a #3? oh well, what the hell. Price. Maxima's MSRP range from Cdm$30k - $35k. Avalon's MSRP starts from Cdn$37k and goes well into $40k. They are in completely different price brackets.

    I hope that is clear as to why Maxima and Avalon belong to different classes ..... if you feel that I made you look like you have no idea what you're talking about, my apologies .... but I think you're the one who actually did that, but comparing 3-series with the Avalon .... I only responded to what you said.

    btw, Nissan didn't change the class of the Pathfinder in 2001 model.... I wouldn't even call it a complete model-revision. The 2001 is still very much based on the old Pathfinder platform. To get the Maxima from a mid-sized to a full size platform, you are talking about a new platform from scratch.....

    #17
  • but the fact is that most of my maxima customers so shop the avalon. and you may want to check your pricing on the maxima also because a loaded gle wont even top 30,000, which makes it a more attracted vehicle than the avalon. of course it still competes with the camry and the accord but the avalon is also thrown in there. and not a model revision for the pathfinder, are you crazy, new lines, new options, new engine, may i say more. i dont mean to get into a heated dispute on this topic because i deal in this everyday, you just jot down posts based on your beliefs, not information that i come across on a day-to-day basis.
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "because a loaded glewont even top 30,000"

    If you've even read my post, I said Maxima's range from *CDN*$30-35k. There's more than 1 currency in this world.

    "and not a model revision for the pathfinder, are you crazy, new lines, new options, new engine, may i say more"

    Before you start verbally attacking others, maybe you should at least take the time to read their posts.

    And new options and new engines defines a '*complete* model revision' (Again, read my post)?! A few more options, even engine options, would define a 'minor model revision', as a '*COMPLETE* model revision' includes revised body shape, revised interior, and most of the times strengthened chassis, suspension improvement ....

    Geez I can't believe I am explaining what a 'COMPLETE model revision' is to a car salesman .... but then maybe I shouldn't be surprised = )

    All the points I've listed are FACTS, not BELIEFS. If anyone is basing the discussion on unfounded information, that is the one who started the rumor of "Maxima moving to the bigger Avalon AND smaller 3-series class", and "Altima is going up-class". The fact you've repeated failed to respond to any of my major points raised is a pretty good indication who is basing the discussion on facts, who is just full of crap.

    I am not trying to get into a heated discussion, but either start to base your discussion on some substantial facts, or be ready to relax and not be so thin-skinned about it when others point out the flaws in your information presented.


    #17
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Wenyue:
    Taurus and aggressive driving. I could never do that. Good luck. FYI, the new Taurus is softer riding than it used to be!

    Adg44:
    So, 2002 Altima will compete with 2000/2001 Accord and Camry. Is this what you want to say? Remember, 2002 is a redesign year for Camry (five year cycle), and Accord will get some minor tweaks and facelift for 2001 (fourth year of current design) and redesign in 2003 (five year cycle).

    "the Maxima's multi-link rear beam suspension is an excellent design" Compared to what?

    Now you come to a point of comparing GTI and Accord/Camry. Do you really want to start that debate? Or should it belong to a different topic altogether?

    BTW, since you started on Nissan rumors, Altima goes mid-size (comparable to Accord, Camry, Passat), Maxima goes full size (comparable to Toyota Avalon, Buick LeSabre, Chrysler LH cars), what happens to I30? Also full size? Basically, I30 and Maxima are identical cars with minimal cosmetic changes, and I doubt that would change in 2002.

    1salesman1:
    I wouldn't say that they could not completely redo Maxima (and obviously, I30) in couple of years. Rapid redesigns seem to be the reason for Nissan's $37B in debt in just a few years. If Nissan really followed the same, I'd call the current design to be another short-sighted decision from them.

    I also remember and have quoted this incident before. Back in October '97, I was looking for a family sedan, and with the homework done, I was at a Nissan dealership to test drive Maxima ($5K cash back rebate was available). A sales person was sent to me. He asked me which other cars did I test drive. I mentioned Camry, Passat, Accord (all four bangers), and that I was here to check out the Maxima. He pulled out a sheet of paper and started reading,
    - '98 Altima has more power than Accord and Camry.
    - '98 Altima has better acceleration than Accord and Camry.
    - '98 Altima has more room than Accord.

    That was enough. I interrupted him, and asked for the printed comparisons. The small letters mentioned '98 Altima versus '97 Accord and Camry. Great idea, isn't it? I got up, and was glad to have a better sales person at another Nissan dealership.

    So it is not always what one is told.
  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    Let's cool off a little, shall we?
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    robertsmx:

    haven't driven the 2000 Taurus yet. Don't really know what to expect, just looking at specs, on paper it looks pretty impressive. Hope it lives up to my expectation when I get to D.C.

    folks on the Maxima subject:

    Well, again you are get into the territory of personal perspective. Nissan Altima is bigger than a typical compact like Civic/Corolla, but smaller than a typical midsize Camry/Accord. So is the glass half full or half empty?

    Nissan Maxima, it's bigger than Camry/Accord, but smaller than the Avalon. In fact, it's almost exactly half way between these two catagory interm of size. Once again, is the cup half full or half empty?

    I think the EPA's offical stance is that Maxima is a midsize, they have to make the cut off somewhere. Probably because the Maxima carrys 5 people like the Camry/Accord, rather than 6 people in the Avalon.

    So what to think? Don't you just hate it when someone ask you a question that has no one right answer like that? ;)
  • ecarmackecarmack Posts: 161
    I own a 96 Camry and a 99 Accord and just wanted to chime in with this.

    After a year of ownership the Accord has a couple of serious door dings. I know they are a part of life, but it stinks to have such a large investment looking bad so quickly.

    The 4 yr old Camry has dings, but they are not as severe as the Accord's. When I tap on the metal on both cars, the Accord's is obviously thinner. I have also noticed other Accords on the road with some horrendous dents/dings. The Camrys don't seem to be as bad.

    I like both cars but I just wish Honda would use thicker sheet metal. Just something else to consider on top of their different personalities.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    ecarmack:
    I could never make out what causes dings. I could never make out why Accord and BMW 5/7 series seem to have more dings than their lesser cars (Civic and 3-series).

    I've had four so far, fixed for $20 each, and over three years, the dings have occured inconsistently, first in about six months, two within two days, and the last was about a year ago. None since then. Not one in my Prelude, about 8 months.
  • ecarmackecarmack Posts: 161
    I know kids in parking lots are a big culprit. I would hope the majority of adults out there are considerate enough to control their doors, but kids seem to just fling them open and are oblivious to what they hit. My young kids know not to open the doors. We will take care of it.

    Anyway, a couple of other observations to stay on topic. The interior materials on the Accord also seems to be cheaper than the Camry's. Both of my cars are 4cyl, but I enjoy the Accord with its extra power, better handling and 5 spd. It is actually half way fun to haul the kids in. My wife prefers the softer Camry. My kids probably do too. When they first rode in the Accord, my 3yr old said "This car is bumpy!"

    The Accord has 25k miles and the Camry has 80k. I also had a 93 Altima w/75k. I have not had one problem with any of them and would not hesitate in buying another Honda/Toyota/Nissan.
  • alingaling Posts: 598
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the Golfs/Jettas all built in Mexico and not Germany?
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