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Honda Accord vs Toyota Camry

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Comments

  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    Any bread and butter sedan with a slushbox can not be sporty to me. Granted the accord handles well and all, but still, hondas auto transmissions don't offer much other than great reliability. I know that some people think that the rough shifting characteristics of the honda automatics make the cars sportier. I don't dislike automatics. It's just that, in my opinion, a car with an automatic transmission should be smoooootth.

    Remember, The Mob rules
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    24 new posts?!!!! What the?! Where did all you people find this free time? I don't even have time to read them all. It's weekdays guys, time to earn a living. ;)
  • amazonamazon Posts: 293
    I spend most of my lunch surfing and now, after work with a guinnes, I'm so wrapped up in this conversation, i'm checking it often.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I think the lack of 5-spd manual for Accord V6 is simply a marketing decision. The number of buyers for 5-spd manual is small, automatic transmission is all but a requirement for most people now (car lovers on in these forums excluded).

    Honda doesn't have resource to spare like Toyota does, being much smaller and less wealthy. What Toyota can afford to support and spend, Honda might not be able to.

    I think the Honda's decision not to make the V6 manual combo is a understandable, and probably a correct one. After all, look at how many people buy 5-spd V6 camrys are out there? Not many. The low production number means it doesn't enjoy the economy of scale, and you don't make as much money selling them. I'm sure Honda studied the cost-benefit relationshipe before deciding not to make 5-spd V6s.

    Toyota is a different story, its cars may not look aggressive, but the company's capability is vast. Toyota, has about $16 billion in highly liquid short term marketable securities. That's more asset than the largest automaker GM can make in 4 years. That's enough money to buy more than 25% of Ford or Dailmer Chrylser, or buy a controling share (>33%) of GM or Honda. Wish I had some of that. :)
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    Then, how you explain Nissan decision to create the manual tranny for the Maxima SE? As I stated before, I think its one of the major selling point for that specific trim line. And coupled with Honda ability to create good manual transmission, I think its not going to cost them significantly to create a manual tranmission for the V6.
    I'm sure Honda did some cost analyzing like you said, I'm just wondering if they're missing out on that market niche or there are other reasoning behind it.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    I think Nissan has always been a good niche product company. It's niche was sporty cars. Like my old man's 89 Sentra 200SX, still sporty by today's standards (he keeps it around because that thing is reliable too).

    In my opinion, the problem Nissan had/has started when they try leave their sports niche to go mainstream. Their Maxima got bland in the mid 90's in an attempt to take on the more established Toyota/Honda. Of course, they were bloodied, and lost marketshare/profit big time.

    Current Nissan strategy is calling for going back to the sports niche. They heavily emphasize Maxima's sporty nature (note the comercials), the new Sentra is almost a minturized Maxima, again long on the sportiness.

    For those who emphasize on sportiness, 5-spd manual is all but a must for a car. And Nissan is definitly trying to be heavy on the sportiness. Camry and Accord are the two mainstream products, sportiness isn't the biggest selling point, therefore no 5-spd isn't going to hurt the popularity very much.

    Just my 2 cents worth.
  • liufeiliufei Posts: 201
    I agree that a not having a 5sp take away a lot of thing from a sporty car, guess there has to be compromise for all the ppl that want a sport car but cant have a 5sp.
    Regarding Nissan, my family never own one so I dont have 1st hand experience with it (other than the occasional borrowing of friend/relatives car). In general I think their car provides the basic transportation with good reliability, and price to reflect that (early sentra and altima price much cheaper than competition). I dont know if Nissan really wants to go back to sportiness and abandon the family car niche concept, since that's where the money is (heck, a family must own a family car/suv).
    I also think the Maxima will be a strong competitor against the Camry/Accord if Nissan can adjust it pricewise, to make it goes head to head with the other 2.
    BTW, have chance to tried out that Taurus yet?
  • adg44adg44 Posts: 385
    Well guys, you all can stop argueing over which car is sporty, cause in all honesty, neither of them are. I just sold my 2000 EX V6 Accord Coupe (what a piece of junk) and purchased a 2000 VW GTI GLX VR6. Of course that is a manual, and that is a sporty car. I guess that some car companies think that if they take a 4 door sedan and slap only two doors on it, they have a "sporty car." These cars are both wanna-be cars. The Accord needs a manual, and the solara is a boat. If you ask me, Honda and Toyota need to work together and create the ulitmate wanna-be sporty car.


    -----------------------

    One more thing, in defense of the Max. It is NOT in the same class as the Accord or Camry, that's what the Altima is there for. Wait until 2002 for a new bigger Altima with a V6 to compete head to head with the Camry and Accord.


    - Anthony
  • markz2kmarkz2k Posts: 112
    Thought you were going to get a Maxima after Honda bought back your Accord? You bought a VW?! You're complaining about your Accord's quality control, and you bought a VW? Hope you have good luck with it, I sure didn't with the last (and only) VW I bought!
  • adg44adg44 Posts: 385
    That works two ways. You can tell that my GTI is built better than the accord when you just sit in it. The materials are higher quality, and it was built in Germany. Maxima was too expensive, and I like having a smaller car.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Manual Transmission:
    I'm not sure why people make a fuss out of it. Those who need it have choices available, right? I had. I needed a second car last year, and brought home the Prelude, with 5-speed manual tranny (and a great one at that), reasonable power, and nice handling, all that is needed in a good sports coupe. It was amazing to not find a Prelude at the dealer's lot equipped with manual tranny. I had to wait. Why should this happen if there are people desperate to buy manual tranny equipped cars? There isn't enough market for manual transmission out there in America.
    Toyota and Nissan use their V6 engines extensively in Asia and Europe. This can be a good reason for them to be able to offer manual transmission equipped V6 (although rare) in the USA. It has nothing to do with resources. If Honda felt like there was a 20% market for manual tranny, they would do it. Look at the 'performance' Accords in Asia and Europe (Accord Type-R, Accord Euro-R, Torneo Euro-R), they don't come with automatic tranny (even a/c is a free option on Accord Type-R in Europe). Now, these are not V6s, but the 2157 cc/I-4 DOHC VTEC from Prelude. European Accord Type-R gets 210 HP/158 lb.-ft, the Japanese versions, Accord Euro-R and Torneo Euro-R get 220 HP/163 lb.-ft. Then, there is a AWD Accord Wagon Si-R, with DOHC version of the American Accord, 2253 cc/I-4 DOHC VTEC, eager to deliver 200 HP and 165 lb.-ft of torque. These are cars tailored to Asian and European markets. The American Accord is the largest, heaviest, and least sporty of these Accords (platform is same), and comes with a V6, designed for America, where only 15% of buyers opt for manual tranny (and most of them would be on sports cars/sedans/coupes, economy cars).
    However, something strange is happening too! Recently, I noticed that Accord Si-R and Torneo Si-R (both offered with 2.0 liter DOHC VTEC), with the arrival of their Euro-R versions, do not offer manual tranny in Japan, but get automatic w/SportShift. That's probably where the future is headed to.
    Personally, I'd like to see manumatics improve quickly, and allow to control the engine better than they do. I like the 5-speed SportShift on TL, except that it does not allow control any more on the first gear, if it did, it will be nice.

    adg44:
    Good luck.
  • why did you not go with a manumatic in the prelude. or did you go with the sh model?

    steve
  • lancerfixerlancerfixer Posts: 1,308
    I once asked a Honda salesman why the V-6 is not offered with a manual. He stated it was for marketing reasons; a V-6 5-speed Accord would be faster than a Prelude, which is obviously not good for the Prelude's image. I don't know if that's the real reason, but it seems a reasonable explaination to me. Kind of a Buick Grand National-type reason not to offer one. (For those of you who don't know, the Buick Grand National was killed because it was faster than a Corvette. Can't have a Regal blowing the doors off 'Vettes, now, can we?)
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    Going to ACS (that's American Chemical Society) meeting in Washington DC on August 19th, coming back on the 24th. During that time, I will drive to New Jersey to see my parent's new horse, and even drop by NYC. I have high expectations for the Taurus, the baseline Taurus engine is 155 hp, stronger than even the Accord's. Time to go to the big cities, so I'm going to try to learn how to drive "aggressively" and maybe even earn the first traffic ticket of my life. ;) When I get back, (if I get back in one piece), I will write a detailed report for sure.
  • wenyuewenyue Posts: 558
    That's not in the same class as the Camry/Accord/Maxima catagory. It's a sports coupe. Like most sports coupe, the back seat is a joke. Definitly not a family car. ;)
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "Well guys, you all can stop argueing over which
    car is sporty, cause in all honesty, neither of
    them are. I just sold my 2000 EX V6 Accord Coupe
    (what a piece of junk) and purchased a 2000 VW GTI
    GLX VR6. Of course that is a manual, and that is
    sporty car. I guess that some car companies think
    that if they take a 4 door sedan and slap only two
    doors on it, they have a "sporty car." These cars
    are both wanna-be cars. The Accord needs a
    manual, and the solara is a boat. If you ask me,
    Honda and Toyota need to work together and create
    the ulitmate wanna-be sporty "

    Wow interesting theory on wanna-be sporty.... but I'm just curious - how is that different for the 2dr Jetta HB called GTI? =)

    GTI, Jetta, Golf ... are all built on the identical VWA4 platform. GTI and Golf and Jetta share the identical suspension setup, Jetta GLX and GTI GLX share the same VR6 engine. If you compare the suspension of the Accord to that of the GTI / Jetta/ Golf, I don't think the VW's have the slightest edge. Those VW's share the same boaty suspension setup, for 2000 models anyways. 2001 VW's can be upgraded to have sportys suspension, which is in essense stiffer Eibach springs. A welcome option, but will not change matters night and days. If you want to talk about sporty VW's, I'd agree the Passat / A4 / A6 (built on the same B5 platform) are sportier than the Accord, but defn not the VWA4 platform.

    Not to mention, these cars are NOT even in the same class. GTI / Jetta / Golf are compact's, Accord, Camry's are mid-sized cars. If you want to compare compact sport coupes, there's the Prelude, which is clearly a much sportier car than the GTI.

    "One more thing, in defense of the Max. It is NOT
    in the same class as the Accord or Camry, that's
    what the Altima is there for."

    We see ignorance here. The Altima is a compact as well, though a big compact. It slides in between the mainstream compacts (Civic, Corolla, Sentra...) and the mainstream mid-sized sedans (Accord, Camry, Maxima) in terms of price, size ... You may stretch it to compare with the 4 cyc Accord and Camry's if spaciousness is not a factor. But we're talking about V6's here, and Nissan's solution for V6 Accord and Camry's is the Maxima, not the Altima. That's what Nissan's marketing says, that's what all car mags compare the Maxima against ... Accord and Camry V6! The Altima is actually just marginally bigger than a Civic! The new Civic will be even roomier, and can easily have more rooms than the Altima.

    "Wait until 2002 for a new bigger Altima with a V6 to compete head tohead with the Camry and Accord."

    That's only a rumor, that is not even remotely realistic. First of all, the current VQ engine will NOT fit in the engine bay of the Altima. From the marketing perspective, if they make the Altima bigger and fit in a V6 engine, it'll compete head to head with the Maxima, and makes no sense at all.

    #17
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "I think the Honda's decision not to make the V6
    manual combo is a understandable, and probably a
    correct one. After all, look at how many people
    buy 5-spd V6 camrys are out there? Not many. The
    low production number means it doesn't enjoy the
    economy of scale, and you don't make as much money
    selling them."

    I agree completely. The % of V6-MT Camry's is probably less than 1% in NA, thus it'd be a non-profitable decision to develop the MT tranny for the V6. However, I don't think the reason Toyota has a MT tranny for its 3.0L V6 and Honda doesn't is beacause of difference in resources as you've suggested.

    I think it's mainly a historical thing. The 3.0L V6 Toyota uses in the Camry is a workhorse like I've suggested that have used for over 10 yrs now. It is used in various Toyota vehicles worldwide, and some of which see a need for a MT tranny. The MT tranny was developed before hand, and it was simply avail with the engine's used in the Camry. (and the one thing that gets me is with the MT being avail, Toyota doesn't offer it on the upper trim Solara, which is supposed to be a sporty Camry .. that's a sidenote though)

    AS per the Accord, the 3.0L V6 was specifically developed for the NA market in 94/95 when the public wanted a V6 for the Accord. Not seeing a need for MT for a NA specific engine, Honda decided it was an unsound business case to develope a MT tranny for this engine, and I agree with that. The fact Honda developed a 5sp sport-shift AT tranny for the 3.2TL and CL (same engine, bigger bore and longer stroke for more capacity) proves Honda does have the resources to develope the tranny. They just saw more demand for semi-automatic tranny in that class than a MT, and I agree with that, though I'd really LOVE to see a 6spMT for the CL.

    It is actually a similar case for the Maxima. Some might say Nissan wants to keep the sporty niche, thus offer a MT on the V6. To some extend, Nissan wants to get out of trouble being the sporty alternative in the mainstream market, as their marketing strategy shows. However, the main reason MT is offered on the Maxima is it has always been available. The VQ V6 engine is a workhorse, used in Maxima, Gloria, Cedric, Pathfinder .... and a MT has always been available. If Nissan had to invest capitals to develop a brand new MT for the VQ, they probably would choose not to do so, and would rather take the path of sportshift semi-automatic. (which is one thing they are missing on the I30). Afterall, only 5% of Maxima buyers take the MT. I mean, if Nissan is THAT SERIOUS about sportiness, they'd at least put a rear independent suspension in the Maxima, not a beam suspension. Like they suggest, it's more for 'bragging rights' sportiness.

    #17
  • adg44adg44 Posts: 385
    The Maxima is going to be a full size car, and the Altima is going to take it's place. The GTI is basically the Audi S3, except the VW version. I'd like to see an accord beat the GTI in any comparison test. Also, the Maxima's multi-link rear beam suspension is an excellent design. Some people just won't acknowledge that. Anywho, back to the topic, which honestly is redundant.
  • number17number17 Posts: 69
    "Nissan Japan has released information confirming the next generation of high powered multi-valve DOHC cam inline-4 engines. The new QR engines are destined to power the new Sentra SE-R and the redesigned model year 2002 Altima."

    There goes the Maxima moving full-size rumor. Altima will keep its 4cyc engine, and its compact size. Maxima will remain a V6 mid-sized sedan.

    I didn't say Accord can beat a GTI. I was responding to your "Accord coupe is a 2dr sporty-wannabe" criticism that so is the GTI (a.k.a. 2dr sporty-wannabe version of Golf/Jetta), thus a GTI is as sporty as a Jetta is, which is not sportier than the Accord at all. The VR6 engine is a gem, but Honda's 3.0L SOHC VTEC engine produces more hp. Accord V6 and GTI VR6 have similar power to weight ratio, and will have very similar acceleration performance for both being AT models. The Accord's suspension is also not as boaty as Jetta's, which is the same on the Golf. Clearly, in terms of sportiness, the GTI VR6/Jetta VR6 are in the same ballpark as the Accord.

    And the point is - why even compare the GTI to the Accord? Like I said, they belong to difference classes. If you'd like to compare compact coupes, compare the Prelude to the GTI, and the 'lude is the much sportier choice.

    Finally multi-link beam suspension - as good as it is among different variations of non-indepedent suspension, it does NOT compare to independent suspension. Nissan is the ONLY manufacturer (among japanese, korean, domestics, europeans) that does not deploy an independent suspension on their mainstream mid-sized sedan (for cost-saving reasons). Though you can argue a varied version of the beam suspension will make-do in normal driving circumstances, it is definitely against the image they try to portrait in their marketing strategies - serious sports car. Basically if you hit a mid-corner bump during hard cornering, with a non-independent suspension your tail comes out, and that is why people do not acknowledge it.

    #17
  • the altima will keep its 4cyl engine when the new body is revealed in 2002, but it will have an optional v6 and it is supposed to be the same or close to the same size as the maxima.
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