Honda Civic 2005 and earlier

bottgers

........for folks in the Chevy Cavalier thread to come over here to continue a discussion about the Civic compared to many other cars in its class. It seems there a few there who don't believe the Civic is as good as it actually is.

backy

Wouldn't that discussion be better suited to a comparison board, e.g. Civic vs. Cavalier, or maybe Civic vs. The Rest of the World? (There was a board like that for the ECHO awhile back.) Then people could compare away and let Civic fans stick to Civics.

alpha01

Civic fans can't handle discussing the merits and inadequacies of this vehicle compared to those of other makes, maybe they should check out the Owners Clubs section of Town Hall. Its probably a lot more flowery and dillusional there.

The Civic is a great car, but it is not the best, and is not head and shoulders above the competition (especially when MSRP is considered).

~alpha

pat

Nevertheless, backy is right. Folks who want to debate the Civic vs. the Cavalier should do so in a dedicated discussion on the Comparisons board.

It isn't a matter of folks not being able to handle the conversation; it's a matter of keeping on topic.

Certainly in any dedicated single-vehicle discussion, comparisons to other vehicles arise. That is not a problem and to be expected. But we do have a specific place for extended comparisons, so let's take advantage of it.

Thanks.

bottgers

Fine, I'll just keep moving, jeez! It doesn't seem to matter which thread I discuss this in, you guys keep jumping all over my back about being in the wrong thread. Lighten up.

alpha01

Since you've seemed to classify me as a Civic fan, I guess I'll go out on a limb and say you're a non Civic fan. I enjoy discussing the merits and inadequacies of the Civic. What I can't handle is people fabricating or exaggerating the Civic's inadequecies to make their point. I'm not saying the Civic doesn't have inadequecies because it does, but compared to other cars in its class, they're few and minute.

alpha01

My first car, purchased by me when I turned 17 in 1998, was a 1994 DX 2-door. No torque, though, which is still an issue in the new ones, and one of the many reasons I did not look at a Civic when I was in the market for a NEW car in Jan of this year.

~alpha

bottgers

Good luck finding a car in this size class with torque. These small cubic inch engines just don't produce much.

rivertown

which is durned torquey.

anonymousposts

Well you can get a Jetta TDI. It's mighty torquey but still has a 0-60 time of 14.9. I'll take slightly less torque as long as I can beat a turtle off the line.

lngtonge18

You must be referring to the TDI automatic. The 5 speed is much faster than that, somewhere around 10.5 sec, or about the same as an automatic Civic. Not bad considering the TDI only has 90 horses to work with and has to pull 200-300 more pounds of weight.

slickracer

I think I can speak on the Civic vs. Cavalier issue. I sold a 99 Cavalier Z24 auto to buy a 2003 Civic EX Sedan with a 5 speed. The only thing I liked better on the Cavalier was the speed compensating volume on the radio. The Cavalier was a good car and gave me no problems for 90,000 miles, but the transmission was getting "lazy" even though I had changed to fluid and filter twice during ownership. I feel safer in the Honda, the mileage is 7 to 8 MPG better and it feels like a more quality built solid car. And the experience at the dealership was the best I ever had purchasing a new vehicle (Bobby Rahal Honda in Mechanicsburg, PA)

lngtonge18

Actually, it's not hard to find good torque in this class. The Elantra, Corolla, Lancer, Neon, and Aerio all make good torque, at least as far as 4 cylinders are concerned. They all make between 130-136 pound feet compared to 114 for the Civic EX. And then there's the big boy 4 bangers in the higher line Sentra, 04 Lancer, and Cavalier/Ion. Those make between 145-175.

bottgers

I think a good measuring stick as to how well these cars are built is comparing both with 100K miles on them. I've seen many, many Civics, and Hondas in general with 100K+ miles that look, drive, sound, etc. like they're still new. On the contrary, the vast majority of Cavaliers I've seen with this many miles (including many with fewer miles) haven't held up well. The paint will be a mess, the interior worn, squeaks and rattles, engine and tranny problems, etc. Of course this could be that the Honda owners maintain their vehicles better, but I don't believe this is the case. I believe the Hondas hold up better because they're built better. Getting 200K+ miles out of Honda is no big deal. Getting the same from a Cavalier would be a miracle.

alpha01

This past January I went with a 2.5L Sentra. Plenty o torque, and a good match for the automatic transimission that I needed to opt for out of necessity. I still get about 26/27MPG, which is nowhere near Civic/Corolla-land but at least I've got the chutzpah to make up for it. The only time for my combo that I've seen clocked is by edmunds (uggh), at 7.7 to sixty.

~alpha

mattpdx

Both my sister and I had just bought new cars, me a 99 Hyundai Accent (blue/tan interior, base model, but BOY did that thing think it was a Porsche!) and my sister a used Neon Sports Coupe. We bragged to my mother that we had airbags in our cars (signifying we had a nicer car than her). Then, she calls me up one day...and says she's got a new car. Which is the above mentioned vehicle. I was shocked. WHY would she want a GM product?

I told her she could have gotten a used Honda Accord for the same price, but she said it was good for her. So far, the car has been OK to her...a few things here and there. The thing I notice most is interior rattling/creaking and the damn cheap-interior. The back seat is atrocious. The radio sucks. However, it moves, gets somewhat fair gas mileage, and hasn't had that many problems. Is it a great car? By all means, no. But it moves. And that's what is important to my mom.

I'm still buying an '04 Civic Coupe EX manual w/side SRS though...better interior, ergonomics, reliability, safety (which I worry about with my mom's car), and gas mileage. Not to mention WAYYY cuter.

anonymousposts

lngtnge: Regardless of the torque rating the Civic EX can hold it's own against the other cars mentioned. I would rather have high-end passing power than "race from a red light" power.

osum02

The 2004 model year will mark the 30th anniversary of the Honda Civic. This is obviously a very important and historic milestone in both the history of the Honda Motor Co. and the automobile industry, as the Civic is one of Honda's most important cars. Honda Motor Co. was basically the first auto company to introduce high fuel efficiency and low emission technology to the United States. I was wondering if anyone knows what changes, whether they be minor or major, Honda will be making on the 2004 Civic line? Additionally, does anyone know if Honda will be doing a special 30th anniversary Civic for the 2004 model year? I believe someone mentioned in a recent post that Honda may be making some cosmetic changes to the exterior of the Civic since 2004 will mark the 4th year of production of the 7th generation Civic and apparently Honda has a history of making exterior changes to models in the 4th year of their production. Thanks for any input you can provide!

jeff186

Some posters have reference dealer sites that speak of a Value Package (VP)Honda Civic in MY04. I recall that Honda offered a Civic VP towards the end of the last generation's production run. Basically, the VP adds some content at a discounted price. Perhaps someone can elaborate?

phlee70

I'm looking for a place to buy a 4-DOOR driver side window regulator with motor for 2000 civic sendan 4-door. I found plenty of places for the 2 door model, but not the 4 door.

thanks

anonymousposts

Try a local junkyard. They might have a few wrecked 96-00 Civics. Even if it's not off of a 2000 Civic the switch will be the same.

jlewelling1

I am looking for a very cheap, reliabile second car--a little sedan (Civic, Corolla or a Protege). I'll probably drive it less than 5K per year, with most of those miles being short haul trips in town. Lots of stop and go traffic. In about 5 or 6 years, I'll turn over the car to my kids.

I'm thinking about getting a manual tranny to save money, save on long-term repair costs (no auto-tranny to replace) and because I miss driving a manual.

Is the Civic a good buy? Is the 115 HP engine somewhat "lesser" compared with the Protege or the Corolla? Is getting a manual for mainly city driving really a bad idea?

bottgers

Personally, I don't think you could go wrong with any one of these 3 cars. All 3 are very reliable, well built cars.

The 115 hp engine in the Honda wasn't an issue with me. I've test driven all 3 cars, and they all had plenty of power for a car in this class and type. All 3 were capable of effortlessly cruising down the highway at 80+ mph.

Comparing strictly sedans, I preferred the Protege. It wasn't quite as bland as the Honda and the Toyota. Now if you want to throw the Civic coupe into the mix, that's a different story. I'd take it in a heart beat! You did mention you wanted a sedan though.

These 3 cars are so close you'd have to drive them, compare prices, incentives, warranties, etc., and make your own choice. It's really going to come down to personal preference.

backy

Lots of stop and go traffic.

If you are dead-set on a stick, I'd recommend going with the Civic--it has the easiest shifter of the bunch, and from what you've said you'll be shifing a lot. For the little you'll drive it, you could save a lot of money (you said it needed to be cheap) by getting a used Civic, maybe one of the "certified" units with an extended warranty, and you'll get a lot of years out of it. As for repair costs, factor in clutch replacements (at least the pressure plate). Those aren't cheap. Today's automatics are pretty reliable. Also, extended warranties cover the parts of an automatic tranny but not wear items (like clutch pressure plates) in stick shifts.

bottgers

Although they are more reliable today than in years past, they still don't hold up as well as manuals. Also, in these smaller, lower hp vehicles, you may want to transfer as power to the pavement as you can. Autos in these small cars tend to make them a bit doggy.

mattpdx

This is the guy that listed the changes for the '04 Civic. I have done an extensive amount of research regarding the upcoming cosmetic changes and I haven't found anything that mentions the 30th Anniversary of the Civic. Like I said, the only changes that I've been able to find out about are the cosmetic changes to the exteior faschia and the accessory changes that will be necessary with the new bumpers (i.e. new foglamps, nose mask, and mud flaps).

If you want to find out all the changes for yourself, go to Google.com and type in "College Hills Honda". They have a website there that will explain the upcoming changes.

If you find anything out, please let ME know!
mattpdx@hotmail.com



Good luck!

jlewelling1

I'm going to have to make a decision soon.

In addition to the extra power, savings and "fun" of a manual tranny, the other reason I am considering one is that this car will also be the "first car" for at least one or two of my kids. (in about 5 years).

While the manual is hard to learn, it is also a better "teacher" as well. I think the kids will learn to drive better if they are more involved in the driving. And maybe, because they will have to be more involved and in-touch with a manny-tranny than an auto, they may be safer drivers as well.

(I wonder if anyone has ever studied the effect of transmission modes on safety? Could a manual be safer than an automatic? Sounds like a good project for the Edmunds Institute of Higher Automotive Studies.)

mattpdx

Hi-

As somebody who learned on an automatic first (even though throughout my childhood my mother had a stick) I recommend you teach your children how to drive with an auto. This way, they can concentrate on driving and not have to worry about shifting.

On the other hand, going to manny from auto was hard for me. I know that in my case, once I got onto the open road, I was very paranoid about driving the stick. It is sheer luck I didn't kill anybody. It all boils down to preference...and I'm a manny man from here on out! You have more control, better gas mileage, and you feel like you're a part of your car.

jlewelling1

On the other hand, given my lack of patience. maybe I'll have a driving school teach my kids.

They would never listen to me anyway....

bottgers

Don't do it! Teaching someone to drive with an auto is a mistake. Anyone can drive an auto. Also, don't wait until your kids are 15 to start teaching them to drive. Start when they're 13, and no later than 14. Starting them at 15, and then them getting their license at 16 is just plain dangerous for them and everyone else on the road! Take them out to a big empty parking lot at age 13 with a manual. As they gradually get better and more confident, let them drive on some of the back roads. The way I see it, teenagers should be good drivers by the time they start driver's training school. If everyone did this (responsibly, of course) with their kids, there would a lot fewer accidents involving teenage drivers.

jlewelling1

...on the racing arcade games at the local arcade.

(I suppose they still have those?)

backy

I hope all that back-roads driving by the young-uns is after they have their driver's permit, which in my state can't be before 15.

As for which is safer to learn with, stick or automatic... if sticks were safer, wouldn't all the driver's training cars have stick shifts? How many driver's ed cars have you seen with stick shifts? I love stick shifts, but my kids are going to learn how to drive an automatic first, prove to me that they understand the rules of the road and all the other aspects of driving, before I set them loose on a stick. And then we'll start off with the stick in a big parking lot.

And the Civic has a great stick shift--just in case anyone wanted to go back on-topic.

axp696

I love stick shifts, but my kids are going to learn how to drive an automatic first, prove to me that they understand the rules of the road and all the other aspects of driving, before I set them loose on a stick. And then we'll start off with the stick in a big parking lot.

EXACTLY. Teaching a kid to learn to drive on a manual is doing them a great disservice. As a new driver, there are a million things more important than shifting that they should be paying attention to. Knowing how to drive a manual is an important skill, but they should learn how to drive and how to drive well first.

kroliph

Just bought a used 1997 Civic Coupe. This car really impresses me for a 6 year old car. The handling is fantastic and the manual is a real treat. I'm hoping to drive it as long as possible. Really fun car.

lngtonge18

Actually, I agree with the guy who said you should start teaching your kids how to drive at 13. My dad did this and it helped me learn how to handle a car long before I actually got the license. He never put anyone in danger though. He took the oldest car he had and let me drive it on a dirt road with 2 long str8s and one sharp right angle turn that only led to a few houses. I had so much fun and it really helped me learn how to control the steering, gas, and brakes. I was able to learn how a car reacted if the brakes locked up, if the gas was floored, and trying to steer a rear drive car through a tight corner without sliding. If I made any mistakes, the most that would happen would be me sliding off the road into some bushes and we weren't scared of that in a 1978 Mercury Grand Marquis Brougham. By the time I was 15, I already knew how to drive a car pretty good. I think more people should do what my dad did if deserted roads are around.

P.S. I loved making my dad yell "slow it down" or "stop tearing the car up" after opening up the lungs on that behemoth 7.5 liter 460 cubic inch V-8. You should have saw the grin on my face It was like piloting a huge pillowy cloud. The funnist thing was the look of absolute horror on my dad's face when he started teaching me how to drive the 92 Accord EX 5 speed (at age 15). I popped the clutch wihtout giving enough gas and for some reason the car just kept chirping its tires and going forwards and backwards, but wouldn't stall. My dad was trying deperately to grab for the keys to turn the engine off while being thrown all around. I still remember his words to this day, "god #$#@ it, you just took 10,000 miles off the life of the clutch!!!". It makes me laugh to this day, hehe.

jlewelling1

Based on the amount I have and the prices, it looks like I will be able to get one of the following:

*Base Honda Civic (DX) with AC and manual tranny, and 115 HP engine.

*Toyota CE with AC, manual tranny and power locks and 130 HP engine

*Mazda Protege with 130HP 4-cylinder, 5-speed manual transmission, 15" steel wheels, AM/FM stereo w/ CD player, tilt steering wheel, and chrome interior accents

See the problem? I want a Honda or Toyota, but I can get so much more from Mazda.

rivertown

the car you really want equiped the way you really want it costs more than the car you can really afford?

It's not always that way?

LOL, good luck, jlewelling1.

backy

It's pretty easy IMO. All three are good cars; each has its pros and cons. If it were me, I'd buy the car that I like driving the most. And if I had to make that choice, it would be the Civic (coupe) because of a number of factors, but that's based on my criteria, not yours. So go out there, take three long test drives, and decide.

P.S. You can add a good aftermarket stereo to the Civic for under $200 including installation.

lngtonge18

My opinion: Take the Corolla CE. Better equipped and much nicer interior compared to the bare bones Civic DX and safer, quieter and more refined than the Protege. Fuel economy is just as good as the Civic and much better than the Protege but the performance is much better than both. I would try to get the power windows though. I think it only costs $250 more to get power windows and cruise. Well worth it, if you ask me. If getting a lot of features for your money is more of your concern, I would look into the Elantra and Lancer before the Protege.

bottgers

Elantra and Lancer over a Protege? No way! Elantra = unproven reliability record. Lancer = buttugliness.

backy

You say you can have a good aftermarket audio system installed for $200? I'd say you could have one installed that plays for that price. A good one would cost considerably more.

alpha01

Just so you know, in addition to A/C, the Corolla CE has 15 inch steel wheels, and a 4 speaker AM/FM CD player standard, so it seems as though you wouldnt be getting THAT much more in the Mazda

~alpha

backy

I said "good", I didn't say "great". In my neck of the woods, $200 plus free installation at Best Buy et. al. will buy a good AM/FM/single CD unit and decent speakers--as good or better than factory units in this class of cars. If you want a great stereo, you'll pay more.

As for the Elantra over the Protege, I did that myself for one major reason: the harsh ride on the Protege. If not for that, I might be driving one today. And there's some great deals out there on Pros right now. I saw new LXes advertised yesterday for around $11,700--that's a much better deal than the Civic DX or Corolla CE, which would probably cost a bit more and have far less equipment.

isellhondas

Traded in today by a travelling sslesman.

2001 Civic LX Automatic....158,000 miles!

No repairs except for routine maintenance.

That's all they will buy!

osum02

Hi isellhondas,
This shouldn't make a difference but I'm going to ask anyhow, what's the vin # begin with on that 2001 Civic trade in? Was that a coupe or sedan? Boy, that sure is a lot of miles to put on in 2 1/2 years time. With that kind of high mileage would you turn around and sell it at your dealership or auction it off? By the way, I don't recognize the flag next to your name, what country do you represent when you post a message here? Thanks for your input.

backy

That's incredible mileage! It's burning up the pavement so fast that it added 10,000 miles just in the four minutes it took isell to type his post in the Honda Civic Problems board, then type it into this board! Amazing! ;-)

dunworth

Sounds like your customer is like that other fellow somewhere in the southern US who put 1 million miles in around ten years on his early 1990s Accord.

BTW what is the most popular brand of trade in for your dealership?

isellhondas

I don't know what the VIN begins with but it's probably built in Canada as most are.

It's a sedan, an LX automatic.

It belongs to his lease company who will be picking it up and dumping it at an auction.

We really don't want it. Who would buy it?

Still, it runs and looks fine. Has a dent in one door and it needs a windshield.

The seats weren't broken down either.

I know I sure couldn't spend that much time in a car!

jlewelling1

And I mean really give him, not how much you said you gave him.

According to Edmunds you should have given him $6,964. (I really question Edmunds calculations sometimes--only $1,810 off for 158,000 miles?)

isellhondas

So we didn't "give" him anything. Every two years his company leases him a new Civic.

But, were it a trade in, those miles would have a much bigger deduction than 1800.00 dollars.

I can't see a customer accepting a piddly 1800.00 discount over a car with "normal" miles of around 25,000.

Miles like that KILL the value of a car.

But, buyers of a Honda are more forgiving of high miles than a shopper looking for a Volvo or an Audi.

If it had, say, 95,000 miles that would be one thing but 158,000? Wow!

jlewelling1

..so how much extra did you charge him for the extra miles?

$1,800?

backy

Why would anyone who puts 158,000 miles on a car in two years lease it??? Wouldn't the mileage overage charges be a killer?