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Mazda Protege5

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    riopelleriopelle Member Posts: 132
    Personally I am amazed at how Mazda has addressed all the issues of the early P5's - more speakers, subwoofer, better cupholders, no roofrack, leather. All it lacks is heated seats and a full size spare, and the turbo of course...

    Thanks for the updates, Audi8q. They have me hankering for the 3.
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    meinradmeinrad Member Posts: 820
    You mentioned earlier you found a customer Pirelli snow tires in original equipment size.

    Did they purchase them? If so, did they report to you their feelings on them.

    Still waffling on what I'm going to do. I just keep feering a winter like last where there was hardly any snow. Yet, not trusting the 5000's if is does snow.
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    audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    no feedback yet on the pirelli snow tires.

    We have been stocking Michelin artic alpin's that are 205 50R 16. This is the tire than mazda did some internal testing with and suggested we offer. So far no complaints.

    Rich
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    kauai215kauai215 Member Posts: 190
    Thanks for relating your experiences with your tires, and for pointing me towards the snow tire discussion here on Edmunds. I hadn't realized it existed. I'll check it out.
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    taddisontaddison Member Posts: 99
    FYI, mazdausa.com now shows the roof rack as a $250 option on the "build your own" page.

    The specs page, however, still shows the rack as standard and doesn't mention the subwoofer.
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    bruce66bruce66 Member Posts: 1
    Has anyone here in Canada installed original stock roof rack from US Protege 5 2002?
    Are those holes on Canadian car compatible with US roof rack.
    If everything fits well, does anyone know the price of US roof rack.
    Thank you.
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    shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    I bought my car about a year ago and since I bought it I've had a niggling little issue with my gearbox. 2 separate symptoms:

    1: When I really rev it up hard and try to shift I've noticed that from 1st to 2nd I have a hard time getting the shifter to actualy snick into 2nd gear. It's almost like the synchros aren't spinning quite right and it's balking.

    2: When the car is cold from 1st to 2nd I can just feel the gears barely meshing, like it's just a hair off and the teeth have to pushed together. It's not a grind but it's similar to the very beginning of a grind.

    I've always noticed in my car that the change from 1st to 2nd feels slower than the rest of the change combo's.

    What I'm trying to find out is if it's inherent in the gearbox or if something is actually messed up enough to get it looked at. I'm still well within warranty so It's not going to cost me a thing.

    Anyone suggest a good service department at a Mazda dealership in Minneapolis for me? Don't say Morries because they really screwed up with me and will never get my business again.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    I also observe that shifting from 1th to 2th is a tad slow at high RPM (>5000rpm). But my car shift just fine when it's cold.

    Bruno
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    protege_fanprotege_fan Member Posts: 2,405
    2: When the car is cold from 1st to 2nd I can just feel the gears barely meshing, like it's just a hair off and the teeth have to pushed together. It's not a grind but it's similar to the very beginning of a grind.

    This sounds like the clutch chatter problem. Some people have had their clutches replaced under warranty. There is a TSB out for it as well. I get this sometimes as well.
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    shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    I suppose it could be the gear meshing issue only happens when I'm shifting. IE the clutch is all the way in. As soon as the gearbox warms up it stops. It doesn't even take that long for it to go away. Just a couple of shifts and a bit of time driving.
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    BTW, I have an 02 ES Sedan, 21,000 miles on it.

    1. I find 1st to 2nd shifts difficult as well. I think the 2nd gear synchro is basically "slow."

    2. I have this problem as well, only when it is cold, it gets bad enough to be a noticeable grind. I took the car in, and the service rep changed the tranny fluid; he said the stuff in it looked like the wrong type - wrong color and viscosity (no idea how that could happen). The problem has persisted, so now the service rep is going to replace sychros. We are waiting on the parts. We will see if that fixes it, though it seems really like he is just throwing parts at it without really determining the exact source of the problem. At least he is trying, which is more that I can say for other reps I've had.
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    kauai215kauai215 Member Posts: 190
    Shrique wrote:
    "I've always noticed in my car that the change from 1st to 2nd feels slower than the rest of the change combo's."

    Yes. Slower and with greater resistance. In well over thirty years of driving manual-gearbox cars, that has been my experience as well. And in the cold, it's even more noticeable; the synchros can be slow to match the speeds, occasionally yielding a gentle "crunch" even when shifting into third on my particular P5 for instance. It's normal and doesn't concern me. Everything works fine when warmed up.

    It has always been my understanding that this is inherent in the way the machinery works --- it's not a problem, ordinarily. Sometimes the declaration, "They all do that!" is actually true! This is one of those times.

    This is true for all manual-gearbox cars, regardless of make or model.

    Please don't take my word for this. Do some research and confirm my assertions independently to your satisfaction. I've read about this characteristic many times, probably in the auto magazines. It's been a while though since I last saw any reference to that so, I'm sorry, but I'm unable to direct you to anything.

    Now, having said that, I need to say that this has no bearing on your specific automobile. Your car might actually _have_ a problem. I would have no idea, never having driven your particular car.

    Your gearbox is an expensive proposition to work on out of warranty, so I appreciate your concern.

    You wrote:
    "What I'm trying to find out is if it's inherent in the gearbox or if something is actually messed up enough to get it looked at. I'm still well within warranty so It's not going to cost me a thing."

    Of course. But if this were my car, my concern would be that it might cost me a good deal, not least of which would be peace of mind. I would need a _very compelling_ reason to permit anyone to remove my transaxle and disassemble it, muck about with it, and then "try" to fit all the bits and pieces back together, and restore my car to "like-new" condition again, everything in the right place, properly reconnected, hoses, wires, sensors, etc., and adjusted to factory specs.

    My thought would be that the odds are against me here. Experience has taught me to be skeptical, shall we say.

    It's my understanding that gearboxes are very complex. The "cure" might prove to be worse than the "disease," introducing future problems you may never see the end of, problems you would have avoided had you never let them near your gearbox in the first place. Am I making any sense here? ;-)

    Most shops pay mechanics on a flat-rate piece-work basis. Warranty work can be even worse for the shop and the mechanic. There is an overwhelming and compelling incentive for a mechanic to work as fast as possible. This mitigates against quality work. Greed rules, alas. And we all know how difficult it can be to find a genuinely skilled mechanic who also does quality work. They're rare, unfortunately.

    Someone astutely noted that they suspect their dealer is just throwing parts at a gearbox problem they have, and don't really understand the problem. They get paid by the manufacturer in any case, so there's little disincentive to taking your car apart from their perspective. If the personnel are unskilled at diagnosis, then they might be equally unskilled at the actual disassembly, repair, and reassembly. I fret about things like that. Perhaps you do, too.

    I would be very concerned.

    Again, I have absolutely no idea whether your _particular_ car is suffering from an actual problem. But you might wish to consider this strategy: Keep driving the car, absent more serious symptoms, and postpone a decision on a repair until you're much closer to the end of your warranty period. Perhaps by then you'll be in a better position to judge whether you dare risk having someone dismantle such a critical and complex component of your nice car.

    And it wouldn't hurt to go to an authorized dealer to get your concerns on record at this time. Make certain to get some documentation clearly elaborating your concerns. You'll find they tend to be "sneaky" about that. I've found it necessary to actually write in my own comments on the order form. You might prepare something in advance for that, just in case. Whenever I've done that, the personnel looked unhappy. But I insisted. You should too. Don't sign anything until you've got a clear and fair representation of your problem recorded.

    In the end, of course, it is your car, your investment to care for, and your risk.

    I don't mean to frighten you off here, but I'd think long and hard before I permitted anyone to get his grimy paws on my transaxle. YMMV ;-)

    Let us know what happens, won't you? And if you find a good website explaining why the first-second shift is always tougher, would you post it here and perhaps even email it to me? I'd appreciate it. I only read in here occasionally.

    I hope this has been constructive and helpful.
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    newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Well said and I agree 100%. I've worked at a dealership before and I've worked at Jiffy Lube and I've worked with people at Jiffy Lube that went to work at dealerships.

    BTW, my 2001 ES shifts a little rough when cold too. All 5 of my manual tranny cars have done this. I put some redline MT-90 in mine and it shifts better when cold. I'd do this before I'd let Mr. Mullet at the Mazda dealer pull a couple bong loads then rip apart your tranny.
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    maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    that wasn't very nice...

    Funny as hell though.
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    newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Yeah, I know not all mechanics are like that. There are some professionals out there, but I don't like to take any unecessary chances.
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    I can handle, and have experienced to varying degrees in almost every manual I've driven, that 1st to 2nd is tougher than the rest, and gets tougher as the temperature drops. Any grinding or crunching when cold, though, is a new one to me, and I'm not new to manuals - don't go there unless you want to admit that Honda trannies are inherently better.

    Perhaps it is "normal" for this car. We shall see after the druggies get their grimy paws off of it. :-)
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    newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "don't go there unless you want to admit that Honda trannies are inherently better."

    I will admit that. My Integra's manual was the smoothest shifting tranny I've ever driven. The Prelude wasn't bad either.
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    Every once in a while, I will get some when cold and in reverse. The climate where I live is dry, so the problem (which is related, or so I am told, to condensate on the clutch disk) is rare.

    If your car has fewer than something like 12,000 miles/ 12 months (can't remember exact figures, but I think those are close) it is still in the adjustment period during which such things are covered at no cost to you. That's assuming they can fix it, of course.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    that they charge you for clutch "adjustment". It should be cover under warranty.

    While ago, I asked if it's possible to adjust the clutch so that it engage earlier, someone here told me that the clutch design is self adjust and there is nothing I can do about it. I'm not sure this is the same "adjustment" that is being performed on your car (why not ask the dealer?). If it's the same, then I either got a wrong information or you dealer is not totally honest.

    Bruno
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    shriqueshrique Member Posts: 338
    Sounds like more people have seen what I'm talking about. I drove a civic for about 7 years and I don't REMEMBER having had this symptom. It's not really that annoying. The "near-death-rattle" (it's not that loud)is probably more annoying to me. I will say one thing. Synthetic is my friend, I changed the engine oil to Synth and now it's much much smoother and quieter. I think I'm going to change the fluid in the gearbox to Redline and see what happens.
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    newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    Let us know if they "fixed" anything. I hope the techs don't play the "who farted?" game in your car. It's where an anonymous tech runs your car though the car wash, passes gas into your seat cushion, then parks it for the lot attendant to take care of. The lot attendant must then guess who farted and what kind of gas station sandwich they had for lunch. If the attendant guesses right, he/she wins a free pack of Winstons.
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    onboost91onboost91 Member Posts: 86
    The Redline tranny fluid is very good. I previously had a notchy manual transmission Toyota Mr2 Turbo and the MT-90 helped smooth things out immensely (it also helps protect the synchros). Actually MOST "informed" mr2 owners had switched to it or MTL(synchro failure was definately a weak point in pre-93 mr2 turbos). The MT-90 does take a little while to warm up though in the winter.
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    capitanocapitano Member Posts: 509
    I drove a MT Pathfinder in the subarctic areas of Alaska for 3 years and never experienced anything like what is being descibed here. I did experience some sluggishness in shifting during warmup because the 15-75W tranny fluid thickened a lot even after I had replaced it with synthetic. And one time I had the engine stall because the engine torque at idle was insufficient to overcome the driveline drag in neutral when the tranny fluid was concrete. I had to disengage the clutch and let the drivetrain warmup a bit before I could release the clutch and go about my business of scraping snow and ice off of the vehicle.

    With that as my cold weather experience, I am concerned about this clutch chatter problem on the P5 as it is one of the cars I am considering as my next purchase.
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    We have a bit of a semantics problem here, I think. There are cold starts - cold because the engine has been sitting, then there are cold starts - cold because (the engine has been sitting) AND the weather is cold.

    So, to clarify what I'm talking about:

    1) Chatter - happens for me if the car has been sitting no matter what the outside temperature (in fact, it seems to be better when the air temperature is cold - more on that later). Condensate builds as it sits, leading to chatter (or so the theory goes as it was related to me). Lower air temps = relatively dry air = perhaps less problem here. Since the climate where I live is fairly dry, this problem for me is rare - for example, it only happens a small amount, infrequently, and only for reverse. Others tell a different story on frequency and severity, and others live in a more humid climate (these facts may just be coincidentally agreeing with theory - I'm no expert so don't take my word for it).

    2) Shift grind, crunch - happens when the car has been sitting AND temperatures are cold. In other words, it does not happen when the car has been sitting and temperatures are warm.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    here in Houston, days with 90% humidity are not unusual but I never experience clutch-chatter.
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    They act to bind the clutch disk and flywheel thus eliminating the chatter. ;-)

    The problem isn't necessarily universal.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
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    protege_fanprotege_fan Member Posts: 2,405
    I get the clutch chatter on days when the temps are cold, never (as far as I can remember) when my Pro has just been sitting and the air temp is warm. I've also never had the chatter in reverse...only after a full stop and I am letting the clutch out in first gear.

    We are fairly dry here in Calgary as well.

    What you describe in regards to the shifting is bang on though.
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    maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    I've always dressed new clutches with graphite spray (an old-timer trick) to prevent new clutch chatter. If the houston air is loaded with carbon from truck/bus emissions it may have the same effect.

    (I'd hate to see a cross-section of his lungs, however)
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    Well, you see, your chatter is due to the fact the you have a Canadian Protege. It has been drinking too much beer during the hockey match, eh. Molson, right?

    There could, of course, be a totally different source for my chatter and for your chatter.
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    maltbmaltb Member Posts: 3,572
    Sorry, couldn't resist.
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    protege_fanprotege_fan Member Posts: 2,405
    Haha!! Too funny!

    You're right, the clutch chatter could be from different sources. However, the TSB makes it sound like it's a known issue with a particular part:


    MT000003848 - CLUTCH CHATTER DURING COLD TAKEOFF

    Some vehicles may exhibit a clutch chatter or judder when releasing clutch during cold conditions. This may be caused by the flywheel and clutch cover surface materials creating a chatter or judder during clutch engagement.

    The flywheel and clutch cover has been revised to correct this concern.
    1. Verify customer concern.
    2. Remove the manual transmission according to the following Workshop Manual procedure: * 5 Speed: MANUAL TRANSMISSION REMOVAL/INSTALLATION M25M-R (section 05-15A-3).
    3. Remove clutch disc, clutch cover and flywheel according to the Workshop Manual procedure CLUTCH UNIT REMOVAL/INSTALLATION (section 05-10).
    4. Install new clutch disc, clutch cover and flywheel according to the Workshop Manual procedure CLUTCH UNIT REMOVAL/INSTALLATION (section 05-10).
    5. Reinstall the manual transmission according to the following Workshop Manual procedure: * 5 Speed: MANUAL TRANSMISSION REMOVAL/INSTALLATION M25M-R (section 05-15A-3).
    6. Verify repair.
    Part(s)Information: Part Number Description Qty Notes FP01-16-410A-9U Clutch Cover 1 1.8L FS05-16-410A Clutch Cover 1 2.0L FP49-11-500A Flywheel 1 1.8L FS01-11-500A Flywheel 1 2.0L B633-16-460A-9U Clutch Disc 1 1.8L FS06-16-460 Clutch Disc 1 2.0L Note: Make sure the dealer contacts DAG to specify order the above parts.
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    the clutch chatter is caused by chattering from the clutch. Very insightful. Why would replacing the clutch disk fix this, unless there is something different about the replacement disk?

    I think your clutch is chattering from all of those 5,000 rpm launches. That wears disks pretty quickly.

    Maybe just putting in a brand new disk fixes the problem long enough for the car to go out of warranty, then it ain't their problem any more.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    Right, this has been stated: "the flywheel and clutch cover has been revised to correct this concern."

    But it seems this TSB was directed to the Protege Sedans and before the P5 is commercialized in NA. Does it mean that P5 clutch shouldn't chatter?
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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    before chattering. That's par for the course around here.

    Thanks for the TSB. I think I will point this out to the service rep who is yanking out my tranny anwyay.

    BTW, why are mechanics always skipping step 6?
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    protege_fanprotege_fan Member Posts: 2,405
    It doesn't really say when the clutch was revised. I know of many P5 owners (even at least one here in Calgary) that have the clutch stutter, so I'm sure that at least some P5's are affected. This is also especially true since both the sedans and the P5's use the same tranny.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    Simply because it might bring them back to step 1!
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    newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    It was in the 20s this morning and I had no clutch chatter. After a couple minutes, the redline MT-90 warmed up and worked into the synchros and it shifted nice. My car was one of the first 2001s so I know that I don't have a "revised" clutch design.

    BTW, there are folks on the RSX problems board complaining about rough 1st to 2nd shifts when cold.
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    altersysaltersys Member Posts: 56
    My '02 P5 with sportmode manumatic has a very strange high-pitched sounds coming from the front of the car (not sure if it's the engine compartment or the tranny itself) that used to only show itself above 80 mph. Now it's doing it at all speeds though it does get louder as the revs increase. Also, the frequency varies with the vehicle speed, not engine speed. I would say it sounds like alternator whine but the radio does not have to be on for the sound to occur, and like I said the sound's pitch varies with vehicle speed, not engine speed (as alternator whine does). In all other respects, it *sounds* like alternator whine.

    The wife and I took the car to the dealership promptly and were told that this is a common occurrence with people who have the manumatic P5 and that we "shouldn't worry about it." The thing that gets me peeved is why we should be okay with a "common occurrence" as though it's something to live with on an OPTION part... that doesn't make sense to me.

    Anybody have info on this issue? Anybody else with the same issue? I cannot find any TSBs for it.

    thanks,
    -Alt
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    It's the first time I heard someone reports such problem. Notice that, mechanically, the manumatic uses the same tranny than the older full automatic gearbox which has been out for a while. It doesn't seem like a "common occurrence".
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    altersysaltersys Member Posts: 56
    It's interesting... just checked out known TSBs for the P5 through the Toronto P5 owner's club (good site), and it says that the whine is "known" and is a "resonance" which is "not a problem." I think it's a problem myself. I meant it's LOUD. I may ask another dealership to look at the car.

    -Alt
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    protege_fanprotege_fan Member Posts: 2,405
    MT000002993 - WHINE FROM TRANS AT APROXIMATELY 45 AND 75 MPH

    0002993 Dealer Repair Information

    Some customers may hear a high frequency whine that occurs at approximately 45 and 75 mph, this noise usually can only be heard with the radio and blower motor off and when the customer feathers the throttle within a very narrow RPM and MPH range. This whine is considered normal and no repairs should be attempted. This whine is not the result of any abnormal wear occurring within the transmission but is a result of a resonance that is generated at varying levels between the primary and secondary gears and does not affect the use, safety or value of the vehicle.
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    altersysaltersys Member Posts: 56
    Sort of, except that the whine exists at *all* speeds and doesn't seem like a harmonic resonance that occurs only at specific speeds.

    I read that TSB but didn't comment on it because of the discrepancy in the described symptoms.

    -Alt
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    dinu01dinu01 Member Posts: 2,586
    MazdaSpeed Protege won the yearly "Best Sports coupe/Best Sedan Under $35.000 CDN" prize given out by the AJAC - Automobile Journalists Association of Canada.

    Dinu
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    reitrofreitrof Member Posts: 122
    This site seems to be having problems. Anybody know what is going on?


    http://www.protegeclub.com

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    protege_fanprotege_fan Member Posts: 2,405
    No idea...been down for days now.
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    iamziamz Member Posts: 542
    I was checking out the horsepower/torque curve plot for the Racing Beat exhaust and in looking at the graph, the Racing beat exhaust gives you gains in HP but losses in the torque band. Below the graph they seem to report the HP gains accurately but reverse the torque losses and report it as a gain. Is there something messed up with the graph or do I need a lesson on how to read it?


    http://www.racingbeat.com/FRprotege.htm

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    dsm6dsm6 Member Posts: 813
    That is confusing. They do seem flipped on the torque. At any rate, the gains are very modest. I bet the biggest change is aural.
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    bluong1bluong1 Member Posts: 1,927
    They must swap the torque curves.

    The dyno device vary the resistant at the wheel, read the engine rpm, convert the resistant into torque. The hp curve is the product of torque and rpm. Hp can't be measured directly.

    Bruno
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    iamziamz Member Posts: 542
    So the HP is normally calculated from the torque curve? It would seem logical that if one improves the other would also.

    On average, what would you think the normal losses of HP/torque would be through an automatic transmission vs a manual? I'm looking for a %.
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