CR-V vs Escape

scape2

Yes, please get out on the net and visit other chat rooms. There are plenty of Honda owners out there whom expected perfection and received something other than...
Take a look at who keeps posting here at Edmunds and who visits these rooms. Many of these postings are repeats or from people who don't even own an Escape/Trib and just want to bash the vehicle. My whole point is there are thousands upon thousands of happy, satisfied Escape/Trib owners out there. If you have had a stats class you know people are more likely to complain than to compliment.
No, I am not "completly blowing off" people who have problems. Just take a look at who keeps on posting over and over again the SAME problem, or those who visit the room just to bash the Escape/Tribute.
Yes, I do enjoy my Escape. It perfromed to my satisfaction, has proven to be reliable, has proven to perform at a high standard, has proven it can tow, has proven it can traverse snowy/ice roads, has proven it can get me to my favorite fishing spots.
Maybe its just that some Honda owners don't like a happy Ford owner??

varmint

"There are plenty of Honda owners out there whom expected perfection and received something other than..."

Scape2, once again, the only person on this thread who has claimed that Honda is perfect is you. Honda has their share of lemons, recalls, defects, and other assorted problems. The reality is, they have fewer than most other manufacturers. We can quote annecdotes about our neighbor's Civic for days. But when it comes down to the average owners experience, the Hondas generally come out better.

The reason why Honda has such a good reputation is because of their history in this market. The truth is that Toyota, Nissan, and Subaru are currently just as good as Honda when it comes to reliability. Honda has the better "reputation" because they've been doing it longer. Ever since Honda brought their first cars over here, they've been reliable vehicles. That isn't the case with the others who now share to the top spots.

Honda's rep isn't due to a lack of TSB information on the web. As pointed out earlier, it's ony recent TSBs that are missing from the site. Honda has had a good reputation since the 70's. The web didn't even exist.

stever

Let's give TSB's a rest and move on, shall we?

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

goldencouple1

"By the way, just on a side note goldencouple, lawyers ALSO say 'if the facts work against you, hide them as much as possible.'"

It is an established principle (among lawyers and in trial advocacy classes) that if there are unfavorable facts, you do not hide them, instead, you race to bring the unfavorable fact(s) out first, then explain them. To hide is suicide.

"You state that its is 'extremely unlikely' that this is the reason that Honda is witholding its TSB's, but you offer no opinion of what you think Honda's motivation is."

I would not begin to guess. But applying logic: why patch one hole in a bucket when there are a dozen more right beside it? E.g. CR, JD Powers, etc. That is what makes the conspiracy theory ludicrous. The one thing I think Honda would not do is try to hide information that is so freely available from other sources and in other ways. To hide is suicide.

And I really do think this subject is dead. I agree, let's drop it.

scape2

Steve, why should we drop the TSB issue?
Varmit, one of the reasons why a buyer may choose a Honda is because of its "reputation" of reliability. TSB's are important and should be available to the public to make an educated choice on a purchase. Get out on the net my man, you will find Honda owners both previous and new that expected perfection and received something other. The net is going to be the achille's heal of all automanufactures claims to superior reliability/quality. Tons of information out here. What about this sludge issue Toyota is dealing with? Why hasn't it made headline news? Its all over the internet..
My neighbor doesn't have all warm fuzzy feelings anymore for Honda products after her CRV was in the shop for 4 days...

varmint

Scape2 - I've already answered that.

And I've already explained that there are unhappy Honda owners. Plenty of them. No one is denying that. No one here thinks they are perfect. Congratulations, you've stated the obvious. But for each unhappy Honda driver, there are several more miffed Ford owners.

As for Toyota's problems, what do they have to do with this? Are we back to grade school using the "Johnnie did it too" argument?

stever

Because it's tedious and been beaten to death the past week?

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

tomsr

I have a CRV and visit the forum everyday and
have yet to see negative comments on it.Just for
giggles I visit this sight and all I see is moaning and groaning over nothing.I would be nice
if there was something beneficial posted.I drove
the Escape for a day before I chose the CRV and
I really liked the power of the Escape but the
seat in the CRV fit me better and it felt roomier.
What would really be neat would be the interior
of a Grand Cherokee with external size and mpg
of a CRV/Escape.If any one cares I like the shifter on the floor not on the dash.Anybody with me?

diploid

The Toyota sludge problem made headlines - it was on TV and in the automotive sections of newspapers, as well as auto magazines. The media brought it to the public's attention and treated it just as if it were another safety issue from the domestic brands. And do I have to bring up the numerous threads created all over Town Hall?

The media does not shelter the foreign brands when they faulter. If that were true, we wouldn't know about the numerous recalls of the BMW X5 or the Mitsubishi maintenance scandal.

bess

How does your application of logic address the reasons why a company might or might not disclose TSB information.

You state:
"The one thing I think Honda would not do is try to hide information that is so freely available from other sources and in other ways. To hide is suicide"

The other sources do not disclose the summary of each specific problems, they attempt compile reliability and quality data in a different manner.

I don't personally view TSB information in general as 'quality or relibility' data. But there are some TSBs that do refer to real problems.

Honda in fact is attempting to hide information that it has control over (ie TSB) from the general public. Is this suicide?

npaladin2000

You know, I think a seperate thread about TSBs is called for...

stever

I don't think the TSB issue is killing Honda:

Honda Profits Surge 69 Percent

Excellent suggestion npaladin2000!

Technical Service Bulletins

(As far as sludge, lots of people still think the Proctor & Gamble logo is satanic too. Maybe if the sludge issue hadn't been drug up by a certain owner who shall remain nameless, but who also complained loudly and often about her Hoover and Caravan, it would have stayed below the radar screen).

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

freeber

...I don't see people lining up to buy Fords with 150,000 miles on them......

I would say that anyone who honestly thinks a Honda has just as many problems as a Domestic Vehicle has never owned a Honda and most likely never will. This whole arguement is like trying to convince a Chevy owner that Fords don't stink. Everyone has an opinion and theirs is always the right one.

Everybody makes lemons on occasion, but I don't recall all massive recalls on Honda products in the recent past. I'm buying mine based on growing up in a family that owned 2 Accords at a time for over 10 years.(I think 6 total) Those vehicles ran without flaw and sold for several thousand dollars with over 120,000 miles on them. My brother owned 4 escorts, and out of the 4, 1 was a lemon. So in PERSONAL experience, 1 in 4 Fords were bad, ) in 6 Hondas were bad.

I can see the hosts point though. You guys aren't going to agree on this and it's chewing up the Forum space. Agree to disagree and move on.

stever

Well, there's one recall on 2002 CR-V's and none on 2002 Escapes according to our Maintenance Guide. This proves... well, beats me what it proves! (does our Guide need updating?).

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

bess

My 89' Ranger is still going strong with over 200k miles on it, and only experienced one problem at 180k (fuel pressure regulator).

My family has owned many Ford Escorts in the last 20 years and we've found them all to be extremly reliable and lasted well over 120k miles and sold for a fair price with no flaws.

We've also had several Taurus' (would that be Tauri?), Rangers, Windstars, Probe, F-Series with no major problems. (My 99' Windstar I didn't like though). So in 15+ (I really lost count) there's only one that I thought should have had better quality. (the 99' Windstar had an early oil leak, and then a pinging problem).

---------------------------------------
As far as 'massive recalls' on Honda products.
Check out the 6 recalls affecting over 200k+ 1999 Odysseys.
Or the 100k 1999 CRV's affected by recall.

Seems alot to me compared to the 5 recalls affecting only 60k 2001 Escapes.
----------------------------------------

So I think that some blow the Honda's superior quality a little out of proportion.

diploid

"Check out the 6 recalls affecting over 200k+ 1999 Odysseys."

Well if we're going to include recalls for other models in this debate, I'd like to bring your attention to the ~1 million cars that Ford had to recall due to faulty the switch on the windshield wipers that could cause a fire. The recall involves 2000 and 2001 models of the Ford Focus, Taurus, Expedition, Excursion and F-series pickups; the Lincoln Continental, Town Car and Navigator; and the Mercury Sable.

baggs32

I am a Honda owner that has had far more problems and recalls (2 recalls; 1996 Civic) than any single Ford that anyone in my family has ever owned. That's dating back to the 60's too. So I'm at least one Honda owner that can honestly say that I've had more bad luck with the foreign brand. It's still a great little car, and I'd buy another one, but I'll personally never recommend one to someone based on "quality and reliability" alone. They're going to be pushing their luck either way.

By the way, plenty of people line up to buy Ford trucks with 100K+ miles on them. Also, the foreign brands will probably never experience a "massive" recall because, on average, they only sell and produce about half (give or take) the amount of vehicles as the domestic manufacturers do. Therefore the number of vehicles affected by a recall will always be much smaller.

carguy62

I think it was you who said you would never buy a vehicle if you didn't have access to the manufacturer's TSBs. And what exactly is the cutoff? Three TSBs and I will buy the vehicle but if it has four then no way? LOL. Are you even familair with what TSBs can refer to? Many times they are miniscule things.

So is your house devoid of television sets, stereos, computers, a hot water heater, a washer and dryer, etc? Because as far as I know no one who manufacturers those things puts out their internal problems to the public?

Again I ask, does your company give out internal information related to its product(s)?

And to scape, knowing there were TSBs on the CR-V did nothing for me. As varmint pointed out it's easy to find out that information. I knew about one TSB specifically before I spoke to them and I knew another one was coming.

carguy62

"plenty of people line up to buy Ford trucks with 100K+ miles on them".

Not IIRC according to Billy Ford in his commercials. Isn't it his point that you can't find a Ford truck with miles on it because no one sells them? Ford makes a good truck, no doubts about it. And FWIW my father has had two Fords, both Escorts and both were ok as far as I know (I drove his '91 Escort in the interim before I got my '02 CR-V).

varmint

Tomsr - You want something smaller?

Both the CR-V and the Escape have interiors about the same volume as the JGC. The CR-V has 106 cu.ft. and the Escape is close (dunno exactly because Ford is hiding that information ;-)). Both have backseats with more room than the JGC.

Also, the CR-V has the same 72 cu.ft. of cargo volume. The JGC does have more space behind the second row (39), but that's because they took it away from the passenger's legs. With the CR-V, you can slide the second row forward to acheive similar results (starting from 33.5 cu.ft. and going up).

Anyway, the JGC is actually one of the smaller mid-size vehicles, while the CR-V and Escape are two of the larger examples of the compact class.

diploid

"Also, the foreign brands will probably never experience a 'massive' recall because, on average, they only sell and produce about half (give or take) the amount of vehicles as the domestic manufacturers do. Therefore the number of vehicles affected by a recall will always be much smaller."

I agree. That's why I don't agree with bess' incorporation of the Odyssey's recall into the debate.

But if we look at just the CR-V and the Escape, they're both selling at probably the same volume.
Another problem would be the date; bess pointed out the 1999 recalls for the CR-V, but likewise, in defense of the CR-V, I could easily point out the recalls of the Escape when it first came out.

varmint

Carguy62 - The full-size trucks made by the big three are pretty good and they do hold their value for a long time. This is primarily because at 200K they are still capable of doing the same job that they were capable of when they rolled off the lot. Their value is strongly linked to their function. Cosmetic value and advancements in areas like creature comforts, safety, etc. have less of an effect.

This contrasts greatly to small cars, luxury cars, and even family vehicles, which lose half their value when the paint starts to fade. Unfortunately, the CR-V and Escape both fall into this category.

baggs32

I think, at the time bess wrote that, this thread was moving more along the lines of Ford vs. Honda instead of CR-V vs. Escape.

I'm not quite sure where you were going with the date thing. Personally, I'd rather see the recalls come out right at the launch of the vehicle rather than have them announced two or three years later. But it does depend on what the recall was for. I fully expect a brand new design to have some problems. The new CR-V seems to be following that line a little better.

carguy62

It was my feeble attempt to lighten things up. People can't buy Ford trucks with over 150K miles because the owners don't sell them, at least according to Bill Ford (is he a Jr. or the III?)

Somewhat on topic, my neighbor just showed up with a brand new TrailBlazer to replace his F-150. Guess he wanted a change.

So when you buy the Pilot are you still going to stick up for the CR-V, aka the Rodney Dangerfield of SUVs? Hope so.

varmint

I got the humor. I just figured it was worth pointing out that big trucks don't play by the same rules as other autos.

Purchase of a Pilot (or Highlander, or whatever else catches my eye) is at least a year away. You'll have to put up with me for a little while longer. Besides, I have too much time invested in this little bugger to quit now.

Regarding recalls... I agree it is better to find the problems early on and get them straightened out asap. As I've written before, kudos to Ford for fixing the problems fast.

However, the 99 CR-V recall that is being mentioned here is one of those that could not be diagnosed as quickly. It was the result of wires that might become worn over a long period of time (resulting in a short). Typically, this wouldn't even have been a recall, except there was a possibility it would affect the ABS system. Because the CR-V had been in production for 3 years, there was a large number of vehicles to fix. The fix was simply to harness the wires.

In contrast, the Ford recalls were a bit more obvious in nature. For example, the smell of fuel or the stop sale for the rough shifting tranny. This does not mean that they were "bigger" problems. They were simply easier to find. A more comparable recall would be the defective seatbelt mechanism found in the '02 models. Like the Ford issues, this was a more obvious problem (found during testing) and was fixed immediately.

Bottom line: The number of vehicles really doesn't matter. Different recalls have different circumstances. The number of affected vehicles may correlate more with the ease of finding them than it would with the severity of the issue. A less severe problem is more likely to go undiscovered and therefore affect more vehicles.

carguy62

Caught C&D television this weekend. In the Short Takes section they were doing SUVs. I love when they say a $34,XXX Highlander is reasonably priced. I swear that was the price (V6 of course). Might as well go for the RX300 at those prices. I hear people saying the same thing about the Pilot vs. MDX.

And I for one am glad you'll be around the CR-V topics for a while.

varmint

Aww, gee shucks...

(check is in the mail)

bess

carguy62:
I made no such statment (implied or otherwise) that I would never buy a vehicle that I didn't have access to the TSB's.. You have me confused with someone else.

I am well aware of what TSB's refer to and have said the same things in agreement with you that TSB's often do not even refer to real problems.

============
Diploid and Baggs:
I agree, I should not have brought other vehicle lines into the mix.. I was responding specifically to the line:

"Everybody makes lemons on occasion, but I don't recall all(any?) massive recalls on Honda products in the recent past. "

This prompted me to respond with the Odyssey numbers, because clearly Honda has had some sizable recalls, that some just choose to ignore.

In my post I also did give Escape vs. CRV recalls, in which that shows the number of affected recalled 2001 Escapes is still much lower than 1999 CRVs. I didn't hear a cry then that CRV's have poor quality..

===========
Varmit:
Point well taken about CRV recall taking time to develop.. However, this to me could also mean more a flaw in design vs. implementation.. Both are equally bad, but often if the design is poor it will affect more vehicles because its being built exactly as designed.. If it's a production line screw-up, I think those are generally noticed sooner..

tomsr

When I talk about JGC interior I dont't mean size
I mean plushness.Like leather seats that you sink
into like a lazyboy.Wide for wide butts,and lots
of chrome and woodgrain.I guess an MDX for $23k.
HA!

carguy62

That should have been to npaladin2000. He or she said the following "I personally would never buy a car I can't get TSB information on, either good or bad. I want to KNOW that I can get information on it at some point without having to go to a Honda dealer, because that knowledge might be necessary to me if the only Honda dealer in the area closes up shop. Knowing a company is willing to share information about the car I bought with me with as little restriction as possible engenders a feeling of trust for me with the company... is the one who said they won't buy a vehicle withoutI'll reserve my other comments related to them."

I stand by my earlier comments. Do you not buy other products because information isn't available? Regardless, I guess Honda isn't for npaladin2000 and that's good.

varmint

Tomsr - Ah, my bad.

Carguy - The thing is, he/she can get the information. Just not through the web sources where other manufacturers allow them to be listed.

carguy62

My post got garbled, too much cutting and pasting. Maybe I just subscribe to a different theory than everyone else here who feels having internet access to TSBs is vital. I drove a car for 10 years before I even knew what a TSB was. People will counter my argument that other appliances don't need to have the same info available because they aren't major purchases. What about houses? Do home builders publish their problems? Boats? Motorcycles? (OT just saw a review of Honda's new bike on Motorweek, it has a VTEC engine, ABS optional, sweeeeet).

diploid

Well in New Jersey, before a house can actually be put up for sale, it has to be inspected by an outside party, and the results of that inspection must be supplied to potential buyers.

varmint

Cost to own comparison Take it for what it's worth.

scape2

about the paper its written on..
How can you estimate resale value?This is a region by region basis Insurance? changes with age/sex/driving status. Financing? some, like me got .9%, Fuel? once again region by region. In CA they pay almost $2 a gallon, yet in Texas its 1.20 or so..
I sure hope people read the fine print on this one...
Why did the Editors rate the CRV so low??

stever

I've been following TMV for the whole time I've owned my '99. It's sort of fun to watch the depreciation kick in and your "asset" go down in value over the months and years.

Where's Tidester - there must be math involved in predicting this stuff, lol.

My personal TCO is about a dime a mile cheaper than Edmunds btw, based on my real numbers (except that while I keep track of my gas used, I estimate what I pay for gas instead of recording that number at every fillup. That's a bit much even for me).

Most people never consider operating expenses when buying cars, so I think TCO is a great tool for bringing this cost of ownership to people's attention. It's rather like the "cost per page" calculations of inkjet vs laser printers.

ymmv

Steve
Host
SUVs, Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards

bess

Looking at the statistics of the CRV (in your link) and the matching Escape,
the TCO difference after 5 years was roughly 3000 dollars, in favor of the CRV..

The 2 biggest areas of difference (giving the edge to the CRV).
a. Resale: According to Edmunds, after 5 years, the CRV retained 2k more in resale than the Escape..
b. Maintenance (Edmunds Definition)
This is the estimated expense of two types of maintenance: scheduled and unscheduled. Scheduled maintenance is the performance of factory-recommended items at periodic mileage and/or calendar intervals. Unscheduled maintenance includes wheel alignment and the replacement of items such as the battery, brakes, headlamps, hoses, muffler, taillight/turn signal bulbs, tires and wiper blades/inserts

In this category, the CRV is estimated $1000 advantage over the Escape. Sorry, but the frequency of failure for the 'Maintenance' items is the same for both vehicles, and the cost for those items is about the same for both.. How they estimate that it would cost $1000 more for an Escape is absurd..

On the 'Repair' category for Edmunds: there is only a $17 dollar difference between the CRV and the Escape.. This seems to support my claim that the Escape and CRV reliability/quality are very similar, (in Edmunds opinion).

Another comment, with the 'Estimated Repair' figures so low for these 2 vechicles, it looks like there's not much value in purchasing the extended 5 year warranties..

tomsr

AAA says an extended warranty is a waste of money
unless you buy it at the end of the regular warranty.If you get a 7 year warranty on a car that has a 3 year warranty then you get 4 years
for about $1000.If you cannot save up $1000 in 3 years then maybe you should roll it into your
financing.The smart thing would be save $30 a
month so you can buy the warranty.Peace of mind
is what it is all about.

tidester

Where's Tidester - there must be math involved in predicting this stuff, lol.

Funny you should ask - I was passing out math finals to my students. I got some inspiration for the problems from these very boards! (Just don't tell them!)

tidester
Host
SUVs

scape2

very good point on the repair costs. Anyone knows Honda parts are about 3x more expensive than Ford parts....

corynat

My family has both and my wife's family is full of die-hard Ford buyers. She has Ford after Ford with no problems. Her father has a Mercury with almost 300,000 miles on it and her brother had an Escort with over 400,000 until he sold it. So, can Fords last a long time? Sure. There has been some problems with the above cars, but nothing to write home about.

So, why did I get a Honda? Every American car I have ever owned has spent an inordinate amount of time in the shop. Probably has something to do with the way I drive. I wanted something that would provide me with trouble-free operation. After 30,000+ miles the Honda has done that. I looked at the Escapes and loved them, but bought in 2000 and felt like Ford needed a couple of years to iron things out. I would be more likely to buy one now.

That being said, I have the very un-scientific opinion that the main difference between American cars and the Honda's and Toyota's of the world are how they perform when treated poorly. I simply think it is harder to kill a Honda than a Ford. Nothing to base it on. Just my opinion. Most people on this board probably take care of their cars. Most drivers do not. I think the Honda takes that better.

varmint

I don't make them. I just post them. The Edmunds TCO is very similar to the IntelliChoice awards, so I ran similar models for their report. They didn't have the Choice trim level available in their list, so this compares the 4cyl and this is the 6cyl

IntelliChoice doesn't list a figure for depreciation (too little info). But if you take that out of the equation, the Honda still comes out ahead by $1,198 or $1,615. So I don't think the Edmunds info can be that far off.

bess

Again, I think this is a case of just lazy and incorrect media reporting, (not yours, but intellichoice).
I've never seen the intellichoice site before, but after doing some objective looking at the site, their number just plain don't add up..

Lets look at some examples..

A. The 2 vehicles you selected (4cyl) you picked the EX (higher trim) Honda, vs the XLS (lower trim) Escape.. The difference in the price that intellichoice states is 23,167 (CRV) vs 20,854 (Escape). So far this makes sense..

However, the OwnerShip Cost numbers they come up with are completely bogus..

A. The 'financing' charges, there was only $185 difference.. (they claimed that Financing charges are calculated using 20% down, 60month at 8.73%) To finance $2313 (difference) would cost about $500 in finance charges, not $185.

B. The 'insurance costs' for the Escape was $155 more? for a vehicle that cost 2k less? I don't think so.

C. 'Fuel' costs: Intellichoice says it bases the fuel costs on the EPA sticker.. For both the 4cyl Escape and CRV, the EPA mpg is listed at 22/25..
Then why is the cost show a $717 advantage to the CRV??? How did they come up with that?

D. 'Maintainance costs', Again, they say general maintenance as required by the manufacturer, with a set Labor rate. I don't have a CRV owners manual, but it would be interesting to compare what the difference is in recommended maintainance in the CRV manual vs. the Escape manual.. As Intellichoice has it, the Escape costs around $235 more to maintain. A huge difference from the $1000 that Edmunds claims.

e. Repair costs: FYI, this is not an estimate of repairs based on any history, but a comparision of 5year service contracts.
--
Repair cost is based on a $0 deductible extended service contract that will pay for repairs for 5 years or at least 70,000 miles. Figures used are averages from nationally available service contract providers.
--

So far, Intellichoice looks bad. But I thought, maybe this is because you accidently selected 2 different vehicles.
Ok, so what if we compared 2 similar vehicles with intellichoice, (LX CRV 4cyl, with XLS Escape 4cyl). The difference in purchase price here is only $108. (Escape is more expensive)

Intellichoice says that 'Financing charges' will cost the Escape owner $325 more than the CRV owner.. How is this?? The real difference is only about $133 (if you finance $108 at their rate for 60 months). Again, a bogus number from Intellichoice.

Same arguments as above for the fuel, maintenance, and repair costs..

According intellichoice, the Ownership cost difference between these 2 vehicles is in $1500 range, thats bogus..

Sorry, but there is way to much bogus information from that Intellichoice application that is clearly wrong.. If you can't trust the numbers that are easy and obvious to aquire (fuel and financing costs), I certainly don't trust them with the numbers that require more work to calculate.
(There are also several mistakes in the 'vehicle features' section that Intellichoice has as well).

Also, there's a big difference between Edmunds and Intellichoice's numbers, (see maintainance costs).

So, I don't see where there is much gained by saying 'Edmunds numbers are basically the same as intellichoices, so they must be right'.

To all others, please don't take my word for it. Go and check out intellichoices site out yourself, and make your own opinion..

scape2

you are the bomb! Love to see the way you tear apart this poor reporting. Spread the news though, visit other internet chat rooms and show how bogus this huge advantage the CRv is supposed to have really is!
Went over to Eastern Oregon this weekend, up and over the Cascades up HWY 26 by MT. Hood in my Escape. I had 4 people and about 2-300 lbs of gear. I just happened upon a Forester that was loaded about the same way. On the way up we would pass each other once in a while and stuck pretty close together. UNTIL... the steep hills started that is. I set the cruise control at about 60. My V6 never missed a beat.. up the hill with no hesitation or loss.. The Forester faded away into nowhere.. You can justify in your minds over and over again how the 4cyl in the CRV is "good enough". The V6 is by far superior. I know this was a Forester, but it also has a 165HP 4cyl engine.. The V6 is just one option that gives the Escape/Trib its advantage. My MPG also averaged 23.7MPG....

varmint

A. The Edmunds comparison uses the CR-V EX vs the Escape XLS Choice trim (V6). IntelliChoice does not allow for the Choice trim to be selected. In the interest of providing as close a comparison as possible, I used the XLS (4cyl) and the XLT to provide both the upper and lower models. (Note there are two links above.) My thinking was that providing both would give us a middle ground. Turns out that was a bad idea.

IntelliChoice does have some glaring errors in their data. To explain what you posted, the fuel expense for the 2.0 XLS is the same as the rating for the 3.0 XLT. Obviously, that can't be right. Another error in the fuel estimtes is the EPA listing for the CR-V. They are publishing last year's vehicle which gets 22-25. The 2002 model gets either 22-26 (auto) or 21-25 (manual).

B. Insurance is determined using more than the base cost of the vehicle. I've seen plenty of more expensive vehicles that have lower insurance costs than their lower priced competition. Note the Escape's performance in the IIHS safety test as one possibility.

However, since they have several other errors, and we have no easy way to confirm or deny it, I won't defend the numbers and would call the difference insignificant.

C. You got me here. There are more errors than even the ones listed above. Using the same formula they posted as their methodology, I am not able to get any of the numbers to work out correctly for the fuel expenses (either with or without the correct EPA estimates). Clearly, this is bogus.

However, if you increase the price per gallon up around $1.35 and use the current EPA figures for the CR-V and V6 Escape, you come very close to the numbers they have posted. I can't say that $1.35/gallon is any more accurate than the $1.16/gallon they used, but the $1.16 is from a study back in 1999. I think it's safe to say that number is out of date. Perhaps (just a suggestion), they have updated the data, but not the methodology.

Regardless of the price of gas, the CR-V comes out with a lower cost than the thirstier Escape. The CR-V's 22-26 vs. 18-23 adds up to a lower expense no matter what the cost. Is it significant? Well, that becomes a matter of opion. Is it a large part of the $3K difference these sites forecast? Nope.

D. "I don't have a CRV owners manual, but it would be interesting to compare what the difference is in recommended maintainance in the CRV manual vs. the Escape manual.."
Perhaps I'm reading this statement wrong, but how does this jive with your earlier statement?
"Sorry, but the frequency of failure for the 'Maintenance' items is the same for both vehicles, and the cost for those items is about the same for both.."

E. They use service contracts. So what? Obviously, we cannot have five year histories for vehicles that just came out.

As for reliability/quality; you'll have a tough time proving equality in this area when every single scrap of data points toward the Escape being on the losing end.

I won't defend IntelliChoice on their line by line assesment. It's obvious that they have plenty of errors in either the vehicle data (ex. EPA number) or the cost associated with the specific vehicles (ex. posting V6 figures for the 4cyl model). I agree with your here. Given the number of errors found in their web data, I'm also tempted to throw the whole thing out.

That would change the bottom line in dollars, but not the final outcome. We're picking apart the figures that total up to less than one third the difference Edmunds has posted. On depreciation alone, the CR-V comes out nearly $2K better. Picking apart the IntelliChoice data doesn't change that.

bess

On the statements about maintenance costs:
Edmunds defined the cost for 'general maintenance' and did not qualify it to say the interval or all the items to be included in this. So, if the windshield wipers on the Escape wear out more quickly than the CRV, the cost for this would be higher on the Escape (if the price were the same for Escape vs CRV, etc)..

In Intellichoice, they defined maintance items as those items replaced as defined in the owners manual intervals.. So the contents of the owners manual would be crucial in comming up with that number.. Which I doubt that Intellichoice actually did.

I agree that intellichoice has a poor representation of the facts. (which you were using to back up the Edmunds 1k in mainteance cost difference)..

So throwing out the 1k maintainance costs, were left to debate the 2k in resale difference between the 2 vehicles..

varmint

Well, IntelliChoice is supposed to be the one of the industry standards for resale/depreciation. Too bad their website is lousy with errors. I'll take a look around and see what else I can find. Resale will be difficult to predict given the "newness" of the CR-V.

Regarding the maintenance... Thanks for clarifying your comments.

I was using the IC web site to bolster Edmunds TCO in it's entirety, not just the maintenance. More specifically, everything excepting depreciation which was not listed. The theory being that not one, but two investigative organizations came to similar conclusions using similar data sets. Obviously, the IC fails in several areas. In the area of maintenance, it looks like they have two different methodologies. So the comparison is fuzzy to begin with, but I never intended it to be exact.

Scape2 - My last long trip into the mountains returned 27.2 mpg. In the past, I've gotten as high as 29 mpg. In what way is your lower mileage superior? Is it because you can pollute more while doing it?

You're going to have to get accustomed to the notion that there is more to building a good engine than power alone. We've already been down this road a dozen times, go back to the earlier posts and read them again.

bess

I agree, for power and delivery, the Escape V6 has an advantage, but the downside is MPG's (made even worse by forcing V6 owners to get the automatic tranny).

Honda has always done an excellent job with good performing engines that get good mpgs..

For example, the Escape's 2.0l engine gets about the same mpg's than the CRV's larger and more powerful 4cyl engine.. So if someones critera were to weight higher MPG's above shear brute power for acceleration/towing/hauling, I think the CRV would be superior in the category, because you can get a more powerful engine with the about the same MPG's as the 4cyl Escape..

daveghh

What is the torgue rating for the V6 Escape?

baggs32

I swear to God it used to be listed as 200 lb/ft, but most sites have it listed as 196lb/ft @ 4700 rpm's.